Bae ATPF

[aseanaero]

2 Bae ATPF large freight door cargo aircraft arriving in Indonesia this month.

Just wondering if anyone here has flown or maintained the cargo or pax version in the past and what the good , bad and quirky points of the aircraft are from a pilot's and engineering perspective.

Should be an advert in Flight International this week looking for crews and engineers on short term contracts until the locals can operate independently, be prepared to work in Irian Jaya :bored:

[cmf146]

I hear they will be joining PT Deraya Air, what will be the operation please ?

[aseanaero]

General cargo ops around Papua and eastern Indonesia

[Phileas Fogg]

ATPF:

ATP = "Another Technical Problem".

I wonder what the "F" could possibly stand for! :)

[powerstall]

First Flight Couriers in India Used to operate a few of those ATP's a couple of years ago, But stopped their operations of the ATP's due to relative dispatchability and low cruising speed compared to the other turbo props in this category.

Maybe some of those will be transferred to Indonesia. :ok:

[CargoOne]

Indonesia would be ideal country for ATP ops, this is one of a few countries where ATP have a chance to show very good dispatch reliability, because anything less than failed engine would not delay a departure, and engines are quite ok on this aircraft ;)

[silverhawk]

10 years ago I urged the BAe management at Prestwick to convert an airframe to cargo and start selling freighters. They would not stand the cost of a conversion, saying they will wait until a customer is prepared to pay for one. Seems the only ones flying now ARE cargo config.

Shame.

It's quiet, doesn't really use fuel and has a decent payload. It is fairly slow, but why does freight care what time it gets to the next warehouse?


It has excellent despatch records once the engineers and crew know what they are doing. Like any addition to a fleet, there may be initial teething problems, not due to the aircraft.

[masking tape]

I’m a B1 Technician, working on the ATP in north Sweden at the moment, if the aircraft is looked after, it will give you very few problems, the biggest problems we have is replacement trim for the cabin, on a freighter, you don’t have that problem.

[CargoOne]

but why does freight care what time it gets to the next warehouse?


You would be suprised but the freight carried in Europe onboard of ATPF is indeed cares about the time of getting into next warehouse. Let alone the fact express mail operators considering on-time departure as within 1 minute from schedule, not 10 or 15 min like pax airlines.

[non iron]

Phileas, my dear sir.

ATP - Advanced Technical Problem if you please.

The problems are well known and just need proper spending to keep at bay. Freighters ? the purse may not open that often but who knows ?

On a lighter note, the engineer run pilot course ( always to be avoided if you have the choice as a pilot ) in 1989 at Woodford produced the following gem.
The powers that were, looked at the prototype after being removed from the hanger and decided that the prop tips "looked" to be too close to the ground.

Mmmh. Composite props. Mmmh. Difficult to change them. Best make the nose leg longer. Which was done before flight in the best Tiger Moth traditions.

First take off on gear retract ? The nose leg wouldn`t fit in the bay and jammed.

The cure ? put a bend in the nose leg for retraction.

Boeing and Airbus eat your hearts out.

So help me, absolutely true.

[masking tape]

non iron, I don’t want to contradict you, but the extended leg was fitted for the US market, to enable the aircraft to be used on an airbridge, not to make the props further from the ground as you suggest.
The major problem with the ATP, was that little money was spent on development of the aircraft or tooling, which resulted in a lot of problems in the early days, from which it received its bad reputation – ATP Another technical problem or another thousand pounds

[falconetti]

West Air have a few and seems to be happy!? Are they making money or will they in the near future swich to something main stream.
And by the way; Will they be needing any pilots soon???? Off topic, but I'm bored........:cool:

[aseanaero]

The major problem with the ATP, was that little money was spent on development of the aircraft or tooling, which resulted in a lot of problems in the early days, from which it received its bad reputation – ATP Another technical problem or another thousand pounds

This seems to be a problem with most Bae aircraft , then they spend the next 10 years issuing service bulletins and airworthiness directives and then they finally complete the design process 10 years later :)

[aseanaero]

And by the way; Will they be needing any pilots soon????

Yes but they will only be offering short term contracts to check and training captians for 6 to 12 months

10 local pilots have already done the training at Oxford in the UK

[non iron]

Masking tape.
You may well be right, an interesting angle certainly. No pun intended.
All l know is half my course was Air Wisconsin management ( the first US customer ) and airbridge access was never mentioned.
The ground instructor, who delivered that homily to us all, signed my pass certificate and presented my ATP tie.

On balance, well...., l really have to believe him.

No offence.

[non iron]

Any thoughts then on the type being grounded in`89 ?
Could it have been plastic trim problems ?

[GGR]

Mrs GGR got lots of hours, days, weeks in these as CC in the good old days and has offered ''Another take-off postponed''.

GGR

[non iron]

:) a new one for me.

[Blue Coyote]

I was an instructor with BAe for the ATP and still am an instructor for the ATP. The long nose leg was fitted to give an air bridging capability, regardless of whether anyone actually used it in that way. Later aircraft had a shorter nose leg and the legs are interchangable.
The leg does not have any sort of kink or bend in it. There is a shortening mechanism regardless of which leg is fitted.
From what you were told I reckon I could take a real good guess at which instructor you had.

[non iron]

Thankyou Blue Coyote for trusting my word.

l appreciate it.

[Air767]

G-JEMD arrived Malta from CVT late this pm dept tomorrow on ferry to Deraya Air Taxi .G-JEME will follow it later on any more info appreciated .
thks

[aseanaero]

The ATPs will be arriving in Halim where they will put on the Indonesian register , they will be working a general cargo run Sentani (Jayapura) to Wamena.

Some expat crews and check and training captains will be used for 6 months while the local pilots build experience on type , 10 local pilots (Shorts 360 and Casa 212 captains and FOs) have already done the ATP sim training at Oxford.

[aseanaero]

G-JEMD arrived Malta from CVT late this pm dept tomorrow on ferry to Deraya Air Taxi

I had to laugh this morning , this was on PPrune before I got an email on the ferry flight progress from the UK.

The ATP was supposed to leave on Monday but was held up due to a fault with one of the engines , turned out to be a microswitch . The aircraft have been parked for a couple of years and were fine during test flights and then when it came to do the ferry it spat the dummy.

[Air767]

just left to SSH egypt

[aseanaero]

Hi Malcolm , are you sitting in the tower at malta or what ? :)

G-JEME should be coming through in a couple of weeks also

[Air767]

Quote:
Hi Malcolm , are you sitting in the tower at malta or what ? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

G-JEME should be coming through in a couple of weeks also

I wish i was sitting there in the AC .We also had SE-DRN Bae146-200F to Indonesia a few weeks ago and I can see that there is another Bae146 routing as below:


BAe 146 -200 2139 PK- Aviastar Mandiri delivery 28-29jul09 YYC-YTH-YFB-KEF-MMX, C-reg ex C-GRNU

[aseanaero]

Yes , Indo is rapidly becoming the new hot market for BAE-146 and RJ due to the excellent short field capability. The only issue is they have to be less than 20 yrs old to be put on the PK register for the first time.

Most of these aircraft are headed for East Indonesia (Papua).

Aviastar totalled their 146-200 a few months ago at Wamena , that airport has swallowed a 146 and a C-130 this year.

[Air767]

do you still have any B732s and B727s flying in Indonesia?that country is heaven for aviation!!

[CargoOne]

Hope you've got a good spare stock together with aircraft. ATP parts available only in Europe and some non-aircraft specific in US, so any shipment will take 3-4 days to Jayapura.

Just out of interest what your performance calcs suggesting for available take-off and landing weight on typical day at Wamena?

[aseanaero]

Tri-MG airlines is still flying B727 cargo , most of the pax 727's were parked in 2005 / 2006 and are in the process of being scrapped at Cengkareng now.

Some 732s still flying with Sriwijaya , Air Fast and others.

My office overlooks the runway at Halim and it's always great to watch the 727 take off and feel the ground shake like it did yesterday afternoon :ok:

Cargo one , I don't have the numbers on hand but from memory the ATPs are down about 750 kg from max payload for Wamena. I helped put the deal together but not involved in the daily operations other than checking up periodically on the 2 ATPs for an overseas party .

The aircraft is chock full of spares and consumables being ferried out with the aircraft and we have a good supply line for additional items.

[Dunnza]

Hope you've got a good spare stock together with aircraft. ATP parts available only in Europe and some non-aircraft specific in US

Your wrong there mate. Quiet wrong

[powerstall]

are they planning to add more ATPF's in the future? last count was 32 ATPs still flying... do correct me if i'm wrong. :ok:

[aseanaero]

Not too many ATPFs around on the market , might be some ATP pax later on.

[CargoOne]

Dunzilla, close to 60 of 64 ever built aircraft are in Europe and spares are there as well. Sometimes you can see part numbers available somewhere else including Far East and Australia, but usually they are in "removed as serviceabe" condition without suitable paperwork. Unless BAE has positioned part of their stock to different location, I don't see who & where have lots of ATP parts there.

[Air767]

Any idea if arrived pls this GJEMD>?
Thks
Malc

[aseanaero]

Hi Malcolm,

It arrived at Halim Perdanakusma about 1.15am on Saturday morning.

[Air767]

thks alot my friend

malc

[Dunnza]

Dunzilla, close to 60 of 64 ever built aircraft are in Europe and spares are there as well. Sometimes you can see part numbers available somewhere else including Far East and Australia, but usually they are in "removed as serviceabe" condition without suitable paperwork. Unless BAE has positioned part of their stock to different location, I don't see who & where have lots of ATP parts there.


Didn't claim to be 'lots' but there is a considerable parts around the Asian region to be sufficient in providing stock to an Indonesian carrier.

As far as I know, BAe hold very little in terms of parts, whereas Westair own majority.

[aseanaero]

G-JEME launching from UK tomorrow .... ETA Jakarta on Sunday

The ATPF is how I imagine an old HS-748 would come out of an episode of 'Pimp my Plane' except they stuck the sun roof on the side of the aircraft

[Air767]

Infact arrival Malta today 1600 suppose

Malc

[Leofric]

Just abandoned take-off and returned to the hangars at Coventry.

[Leofric]

Got away at 1135 local

[aseanaero]

Thanks Leo

It must almost have arrived in Malta by now

[Air767]

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo337/QUID59/GJEME_MALCOLM_BEZZINA_MALTA.jpg

Here it is

malc

[Air767]

G-JEME left very late afternoon to Sharm EL-Sheikh Egypt due some technical problem in its port wing not sure if its an oil leak..the pilot told my friend that more ATP are to transit through Malta.Any idea pls if they are destined to Indonesia?
Thks
M<alc

[aseanaero]

the pilot told my friend that more ATP are to transit through Malta

No , that's it for the moment.

[Air767]

thks maybe they are destined for another country such as India or nearby countries

Malc

[smudgethecat]

God help, you the ATP is a nightmare, i worked on them for two years, utter garbage

[Dunnza]

Absolute love um, but not as much as the 748!

[oceancrosser]

do you still have any B732s and B727s flying in Indonesia?that country is heaven for aviation!!

I believe you should rethink the last part of your posting considering Indonesias record...

[cmf146]

Hi Aseanaero,

Has G-JEME arrived in Indonesia yet. If so do you know when please.

Thanks.

[aseanaero]

Yes , G-JEME arrived at Halim Perdanakusuma at 1am local time on Tuesday morning.

[Air767]

Aseanaero
by any chance any idea if Trigana still operates the 2 Caribous?They transited through Malta long time ago!!
Malc

[aseanaero]

Hi Malcolm.

PK-YRO was destroyed in an accident in 2006

ASN Aircraft accident de Havilland Canada DHC-4A Caribou PK-YRO Mamit (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20061010-1)

PK-YRJ is still flying I believe , I spoke with the operator 6 months ago and they said they still have a Caribou.

What's weird is both aircraft are still shown on Trigana's fleet list

.:: Direktorat Jenderal Perhubungan Udara ::. (http://hubud.dephub.go.id/?id+maskapai_armada+detail+41)

[cmf146]

Aseanaero,

Do you know if these ATP's are in operation with Deraya yet please and what Indonesian marks they are carrying.

Many thanks

[Air767]

thks alot for the info on PK-YRO the 2 ATP passed via Malta as Deraya Air but using registration as c/s

malc

[Dash-7 lover]

Should be a few ATP's available from the Azores before long?? Superb handling in crosswinds. Had great fun looking after G-MANA - G-MANJ and not forgetting G-MAUD. A great workhorse if given a bit of TLC although leaked like sieve, with either hydraulic fluid, fuel seeping out or rainwater getting in and a ****** to trim!

[aseanaero]

Hi Dash 7,

The 2nd aircraft arrived with a fuel leak at the wing root also

They are going through the acceptance process for PK registration at the moment and should be operating in early October

Are the Azores ATPs pax or freighters ?

[flyinGuppy]

SATA air Azores currently flies 5 pax ATP's, owns 2 of them, the others are on lease. They should start leaving the fleet soon, 1 this year and the rest next year. Serials 2018, 2019, 2025, 2031 & 2049.

[aseanaero]

What are they replacing the ATPs with ? ATRs ?

[gfly2000]

They are replacing them next year with Dash 8 Q400 NX :sad:

[Geo73]

Does anyone know the current location of Atlantic Airlines BAe ATP G-OAAF?

[2port]

It's at Coventry.

[Geo73]

Thanks 2port.

Do you know if it is currently out of service?

[2port]

I suppose it depends on the definition of "out of service".
It hasn't flown for a couple of weeks, but that's probably due to lack of route availability rather than unserviceability.

2P

[Geo73]

Thanks 2port.

[Spanner748]

seriously looking out to contract a 748 IP to train pilots. Could do with twice a year contract for checks on the pilots. also seriously looking for 748 pilots to do a year round flying cargo flights. ciao.

[Air767]

ANY HS748S pending ferry at the moment?I saw that N748D went to Southend for scrap??

[Spanner748]

Those two ATPs were in the fleet of Biman Bangladesh Airlines and were sold off at dirt cheap prices (along with many many spares and GSE) in the early 2000 ( I heard). And I actually had an opportunity on two occasions during the last 2 years to visit those 2 ATPs in Blackpool hangar owned by Aircraft Maintenance Services (subsidiary of IAP, Australia?). They were under heavy maintenance then. Looked great to me.

[Sir Stanley Bigh]

Apologies for being slightly off topic but I have acquired a pair of ATP control columns/yokes which were mounted on a homemade display stand(!). I'd like to connect them back together and would really appreciate it if someone could send me the relevant pages from the BAE maintenance manual.

I'm particularly interested in the cables and pulleys that connect the roll axis, and also how the whole assembly is fastened to the flightdeck or floor structure.

Thanks

Sir Stanley

[CAP509castaway]

use speed tape like the pro's do:}:}:}

ps when's it gonna b ready opc coming up:D