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Tee Emm
5th Jul 2009, 04:12
The Boeing 737 FCTM discusses various cross-wind landing techniques suitable to the aircraft. Three main types are mentioned. They are: De-crab in the flare; touchdown with crab (usually by default!) and sideslip technique. One paragraph states "The greater amount of crab at touchdown, the larger the lateral deviation from the point of touchdown. For this reason, touchdown in a crab only condition is not recommended when landing on a dry runway in strong crosswinds." Boeing do not quote figures for "strong" crosswinds - leaving that interpretation to the pilot. Not much help, really.

I have talked to pilots who use the crosswind technique of deliberately not removing drift before touchdown. They argue the FCTM allows that, without damage to the landing gear. That this technique often feels and sounds terrible if touch down is with significant drift, seems not to faze them. Is it because they are tense when faced with crosswinds? Or, because they have not been properly trained and therefore lack the panache, polish and skill to place the aircraft squarely on the centre line with all drift removed? Possibly both. A consistently well handled strong crosswind landing is an art on it's own. A thing of great beauty and personal satifaction.

Crosswind landing training in simulators tend to be glossed over,and other sequences given greater priority. Perhaps that explains the reluctance or inability of some pilots to remove drift at touchdown. Considering that inexperienced pilots going from light twins to 737's from CPL graduation, may in their career, have never experienced more than 15 knots crosswind component, (no criticism implied, if only because few light twin trainers have crosswind limits exceeding 15-18 knots) - then one would hope that their simulator instructors would spend more training time on the various types of crosswind landings. A good simulator instructor should not be afraid to demonstrate crosswind landing technique. Something about a picture being worth a thousand words.

Considering the real skill needed to make consistently well judged crosswind landings in a 737 without drift, I doubt if this skill can be picked up by just the occasional crosswind landing in a simulator syllabus. After all, it is known that many airlines limit first officers to strict crosswind limits until command training. Presumably because strong crosswind landings can be a flight safety hazard for low experience pilots. In turn, this suggests more emphasis should be placed on correct crosswind technique during type rating and recurrent training in the simulator.

On the other hand, maybe the instructors point to the FCTM and say "there it is lad - all in black and white - you can safely land without removing drift and without busting the Boeing. In my view this is nothing more than a cop-out and certainly poor training.

A recent amendment to the B737 Classic FCTM, says sideslip only (zero crab) landings are not recommended with crosswind components in excess of 17 knots at Flap 15, 20 knots at Flap 30 and 23 knots at Flap 40. It states this ensures adequate ground clearance and is based on maintaining adequate control margin. This seems awfully vague as if the legal people have had an input into the wording. I am a bit puzzled if this is about engine or flap ground clearance? And also, how does one judge "adequate" control margin?

At first glance, I would have thought that lesser flap settings meant less chance of airframe or engine scrape in strong crosswinds. But the figures in the FCTM given seem to contradict that theory.

Appreciate any constructive opinions as to why would Boeing suddenly publish these crosswind component figures versus flap settings, when since the first 737 flew there was no apparent need?

Pub User
5th Jul 2009, 09:07
opinions as to why would Boeing suddenly publish these crosswind component figures versus flap settings, when since the first 737 flew there was no apparent need?

Aviation is subject to constant review and refinement. Every time a problem comes to light, it is studied in depth and suitable guidance published. I assume this amendment to the FCTM was as a result of such studies. This process is part of the reason why commercial aviation is so incredibly safe these days.

However, like you I am at a loss to understand why the crosswind 'limits' increase with increasing flap settings, when it could be assumed that ground clearance and control margins decrease under the same circumstance.

Any gurus out there who can shine a light?

werbil
5th Jul 2009, 09:18
With more flap you land with a lower nose attitude. With a swept wing aircraft the higher the nose attitude the closer the wingtip is to the ground for the same angle of bank.

Tee Emm
5th Jul 2009, 11:26
With more flap you land with a lower nose attitude. With a swept wing aircraft the higher the nose attitude the closer the wingtip is to the ground for the same angle of bank.


That may be generally true with early fighters such as the Mirage and F100 Super Sabre that had marked high nose attitudes on final and touch down. I am not sure about the 737 though. It is interesting to note with the 737 Classics that the final approach body attitude for an all flaps up landing is only one to two degrees higher than a flaps 30 approach. (Ref FCTM). In other words around 4.2 degrees nose high with all flaps up. So in reality, the difference in ground wing-tip clearance between all flaps up and flaps 30 is insignificant in the 737 Classic at least. I don't have ground to wing-tip clearance figures to hand, so I may well be in error on that last statement.

framer
5th Jul 2009, 15:57
I'm pretty sure it's not the wing-tip you'l hit. I seem to remember someone mentioning the inboard trailing edge of the flap or the pod itself.....I stand to be corrected if neccessary:)

Checkboard
5th Jul 2009, 16:30
Crosswind limit recommendation in the classic at least use to be stated to be for engine pod clearance in wing down crosswind landings. Does it not still do so?

prenzlauerberg
17th Feb 2020, 10:45
well once you decrab the aircraft you will need an aileron deflection into the upwind, to prevent drifting off the centerline.

if you have a lower flap setting, then your speed is higher which makes ailerons more effective hence a smaller bank angle will be needed.
on the other hand if you have a full flap setting, with a slower speed, than the bank angle to keep the A/C ar centerline will incerease which will increase the risk of the engine upwind to hit the hard surface.

so the numbers with the sideslip are quite controversional for me.
this is at least my “opinion” as a student in the atpl training. would welcome opions from the 37 captains oıt there.

Uplinker
20th Feb 2020, 10:04
well once you decrab the aircraft you will need an aileron deflection into the upwind, to prevent drifting off the centerline..............

If you de-crab just before* the mains touch, you will stay on the centreline. *a second or less

I flew lots of turboprops before big jets, and one turboprop line Captain was brilliant - hello Stan!

He would tell me to "follow through" with him on the controls as he performed crosswind landings**. This was really useful tuition, and really gave me a good sense of the timing of the actions needed. I don't always get it right, but even though I say so myself, I can do good landings in crosswinds - even in Airbus FBW.

I am not worried about crosswind landings, and in fact I relish the challenge because when you plonk the mains on in the right place with the aircraft facing along the runway, having wrestled against the crosswind, it is immensely satisfying.

The engineer side of me cannot countenance the idea of touching the runway while still crabbed - no matter what they say. It cannot do the aircraft any good !!!

**Just lightly holding my yoke and rudder pedals and feeling what, (and when), his control inputs were.

meleagertoo
20th Feb 2020, 10:48
The main gear was able to castor to some extent which absorbed/counteracted some of the crab on touchdown. This used to remain in place until the gear was next retracted resulting sometimes in a substantial crab in taxy which was very noticeable to a following aircraft.

My recollection of training was that the sims of the day didn't replicate crosswind landing handling at all well and only allowed rather general demonstration of the techniques required. They certainy didn't allow any finesse to be developed.
I always felt that landing with crab was a rough and ready approach and any pilot with a modicum of skill and pride would strive to decrab in the flare as much as possible. We were discouraged from using the sideslip method, I imagine due to increased risk of grounding something. Decrab in flare is also much more comfortable for the pax.

Banana Joe
20th Feb 2020, 12:27
The simulator we currently use, an old one, does not feel like the aircraft at all during the decrab. Very twitchy and it almost gives a sensation of an arising snap roll that I am better off kicking the drift out at 10 ft RA. Much easier on the real thing, a simple gradual decrab starting with the flare works a treat.