What's wrong with being 40 when you start training? [Archive]

Oldie-Going-For-It

2nd Jul 2009, 17:57

I've been reading through the PPRuNe threads for some time and have just registered so I can vent my frustration...

I cannot understand why airlines reject oldies with a fresh FATPL? Why does happen? Surely a new pilot at 40 still has 20 years of flying in him/her ...that's a significant number of years.

Why is it that a twenty year old is a more-appealing prospect to an established carrier?

I am just about to begin my PPL and hope to go all the way if things work out. I am trying to ignore all the ageism that is rife in certain training companies otherwise I'll continue to procrastinate in the same way I've been for the last three or four years.

Any guidance as to get through the next couple of years is very welcome - in any form...

Whirlygig

2nd Jul 2009, 18:50

Well you can but it takes longer.

As you get older, it takes more mental effort to retain information. I can guarantee that studying for the ATPL exams will take you longer now than if you were 20 especially if you are out of the habit of studying.

Like it or not, the physical skill of flying is harder for older people and again, it'll take you longer to get your PPL than you would have done if you were 20.

Consequently, I suspect that airlines see this as a detrimental aspect when it comes to currency training.

Also, as a forty year old, you will have higher expectations in life and are less likely to put up with crap. Therefore, airlines may see more mature new recruits as potential trouble-makers even tough you may perceive that not to be the case. You'll be starting at the bottom whereas you may well be at the top of your field now.

There is a perception that older people are not prepared to report to someone younger than them.

I'm not saying any of it is right but these are possibly some of the reasons. Of course, some 40 year olds will be better than some 20 year olds. Some more mature newly-qualified commercial pilots have found successful careers in airlines but more priobably prefer working for smaller charter operators where there experience of life in general is preferred.

However, I'd be interested in any ageism within any training companies. Quite frankly, it's none of their business and they should welcome the custom.

Cheers

Whirls

Der absolute Hammer

2nd Jul 2009, 19:24

Well, a forty year old with two bars always looks a little strange. It probably leads to comments from the passengers like...
'We're dead if the skipper has a seizure.'

Paper Lad

2nd Jul 2009, 19:41

What's wrong with being 40 when you start training?

Nothing:cool:

Oldie-Going-For-It

2nd Jul 2009, 20:27

Indeed, there's nothing wrong in starting when you're 40. in fact, one south coast school I spoke to a few months ago said they frequently had career-changers in their 40s going through the motions...

...but my confusion is why airlines don't see the benefits in going for an oldie.

As Whirlygig mentioned, there is a concern that an individual's learning skills are shown to be inversely proportional to age - which may be true with certain mature folk. However, as a lecturer with the Open University I tutor a very wide range of students between 20 and 70. Believe me, there are some seriously smart, able people out there across the age range.

At 40 you're no where near past it - well, I'm definately not...

Gentle Climb

2nd Jul 2009, 22:24

I am forty and I am just over half way through my training course with a fairly well known training provider. Having been out of a learning environment for well over 20 years the initial groundschool was tough, but with hard work I came through with mid 90's average marks. Not as good as some but better than others. The flying itself is intensive but enjoyable. I spent a lot of time prior to the course looking at how instruments work etc and this has helped a fair amount. It is too early to make a judgement about my flying ability but my gut feeling is that I will be just above average.
All of the above won't make a huge difference with an prospective employer who has 'training risk' issues with older applicants but at least demostrates to other employers that if I am good enough, I am young enough.

JB007

2nd Jul 2009, 22:51

I don't think there is a huge issue with training at 40 years of age, but I certainly wouldn't go into it 'lightly'...

I don't know your personal circumstances, you could be a 'Rothschild or Hilton' family member for all I know but I would have a long hard think about what is a realistic aiming point for your flying career. You're going to invest a huge amount of money/loss of earnings/effort that is without a shadow of a doubt a huge achievement and very satisfying - but in terms of your earning potential for someone who doesn't have a PPL yet?

Yes, you could argue that by the time you're finished, the new 'upwards cycle' will maybe have begun but take some time to study the industry as a whole in the UK...44/45 years of age with a fATPL/<200 hours - the next cycle could be something we've never seen before, economics have changed with airlines prefering 20 something newly trained pilots prepared to work for nothing from 01st May to 31st October, "see you next year then, we'll let you know when we've worked out our estblishment figures"

Airlines are shrinking right now, this next cycle might just be enough to soak up experience/Middle East returnees! Not to mention at the very least, all those very competant guys/gals sat 5+ years in turbo-props wanting to move up the ladder...

Your aiming point could only be as far as a turbo-prop, they'll love your life experience and a command is a possibilty, providing recruitment is good, within a 3 year period and 1500 hours/ATPL issued...but terms and conditions are not as good as the bigger players and salary at FO level is bad £22k ish - you're only ever going to be paid what you're worth...

Now you may say "I just wanna fly..."...maybe not at 40...but i'd becareful, it's just a job when all said and done and the first few years you will live to work, then the shine will eventually come off and you'll join the rest of us in been very very privilaged in loving your job...but you'll work to live eventually...and pushing 50 earning £22k or maybe not making it at all could be harsh...

And on that cheery note...

Goodnight
JB

LH2

2nd Jul 2009, 23:12

The oldest I've seen is an ATR F/O who started CPL training at 51 and started flying the ATR at 53. All paid for by his employer, btw.

Mind you, he was a PPL with some 20 years of flying experience.

piky

2nd Jul 2009, 23:16

Go for it Kid...You might not make the Job as soon as you may like due to the economic situation however, its better than blowing Ya Brains out as prescribed by Jesus our Lord WWW!!

PS: Started late myself and in deep reccession, ended up driving the 747 Classic!

Jesus, How long a ban have I qualified for?:E

thewelshwizard1

3rd Jul 2009, 15:37

Der Abolute Hammer,

Your full of Seirra Hotel India Tango, son shine!

Peoplw like you with that attitude, puts this forrum to shame!!!!

tww1

:=

thewelshwizard1

3rd Jul 2009, 15:39

OGFI

You go for it my friend best of luck to you

tww1

:ok:

jetzup

6th Jul 2009, 14:06

Absolutely nothing oldie-going-for-it. Wow, Forty is not old, it's the new 20. Don't be afraid of change especially if you don't have to take out a loan, and initial low salary is not a problem. Better do something you like for the next 20 years rather than get stuck at something you are bored of.

AOPA Flight Training - You're Never Too Old To Fly (http://flighttraining.aopa.org/learntofly/articles/2553.cfm)

Genghis the Engineer

7th Jul 2009, 11:18

I'm not near my library to look up the exact reference, but Nevil Shute writes in "Slide Rule" about employing a small company Chief Pilot - this was in the 1930s I think.

They got through a small succession of young, bright, capable - but generally unreliable pilots with too much interest in the lifestyle, and too little in the responsibilities of the job.

They eventually employed a chap in his mid 40s, mortgage, children, perhaps less obvious ability than the youngsters - but they never looked back. Utterly reliable, always had an eye on what was good for the company, was with them for many years and never ever let them down.

His moral was to always try and employ somebody with a lot to lose if the job goes wrong.

Personally, whilst not in the airlines, I work and employ a fair number of people in aviation. I'm most conscious of (a) getting the right people regardless of age, and (b) trying to maintain a reasonable age and ability gradient across the organisation so that everybody can see a career progression and learn from the different perspectives of others - that might depending upon circumstance have me most interested in employing youngsters or oldies, but I'd never put a hard and fast rule on it.

G

Bealzebub

7th Jul 2009, 12:33

You are making the same mistake that the youngsters make. The airlines are not salivating at the prospect of frozen ATPL holders generally. Historically they have sought experience commensurate with the vacancies they are seeking to fulfill. This has been satisfied by career improvers and ex military pilots for the most part, with some (cadet) intake from approved and or affiliated training schools in small measure.

In recent years there has been an expanding industry of airlines and flight training organisations offering a mutually beneficial package of training leading up to a type rating and line training. This has had the effect of providing a stream of new and low cost first officers for some airline companies, and a fairly seamless fast track career progression for some trainees. These trainees would hopefully complete their probationary periods and be offered full time paid employment with either that same or another company. The problem of course was that this distorted the market for pilots. Career advancers and ex-military pilots were now competing for "jobs" that this rapidly flourishing "integrated" industry was turning out. Coupled with the economic turndown, and plentiful supply of applicants, the market has been oversupplied and prices (wages) have been significantly depressed.

The good news is that in fact companies cannot discriminate against you simply on the basis of your age. Of course they can discriminate (lawfully) on the basis of so many other factors, that it is almost irrelevant. Nevertheless age alone cannot be used as a reason for refusal.

With age comes maturity, and for that reason perhaps there it is a less appealing prospect to invest large sums of money into very risky and speculative ventures. Buying "jobs" may seem appealing at 19 or 20 when you may be more blinkered to the reality of what is happening around you and there is still 45 years ahead of you and few immediate commitments other than those you seek to embrace in pursuit of this career. At 40 you are likely to already have many other commitments and a far more cautious approach to risk generally. The airlines that have not embarked on this "pay to fly" concept (and they are becoming fewer,) are still constrained by the wider economy, and would still source their potential candidates from those with experience and at age 40 many similar applicants would have plenty of that experience.

Wee Weasley Welshman

7th Jul 2009, 12:59

I can only concur with JB007 I'm afraid.

The novelty will wear off. As someone once warned me (which obviously I ignored) becoming a professional pilot ruins a good hobby. It does.

WWW

BellyAir

7th Jul 2009, 13:16

Whirlygig - what a rediculous thing to say and how condescending.

Maybe you're speaking for yourself, but don't tie everyone else into it.

As for 'oldie going for it' - you should ask yourself why you would value the opinion of faceless strangers.

Pilots have got to where they are in a myriad of different ways with different challenges on the way.

One thing that's not up for debate is the state of the job market in the aviation industry.

Don't be a fool. Do some work. At least it will prove to Whirlygig that some 40 year olds are capable of conscious thought and, when pushed, can make a decision without commitee.

hedge

7th Jul 2009, 13:35

Read again the comments from JB007.

If you want the FATPL you will get it. I started the process around at 37 and have enjoyed reasonable employment fortune. (turbo props + jets for the last 5 yrs) However many of my peers were not quite so lucky and one or two never flew beyond their IR, due mainly financial reasons, not aptitude. There are a lot worse jobs out there (but none that you have to shell out so much money for), but a job it is and probably like your present occupation, it will often be routine. Be very sure and of course factor in the family/financial implications.

Having said that, I wish you the best of luck if you do go for it.

jetzup

7th Jul 2009, 14:02

I know people at 40 buying sports car for more than the amount it takes to get a cpl for whatever reasons love, passion for fast cars. Sports cars depreciates. You can atleast get a cfi and continue flying and see where it gets you if your are financially ok. This is just my take.

Trolle

8th Jul 2009, 08:04

Airlines don't have a policy about not hiring 40+. It is the market that stipulates this.

If there is a shortage of pilots then a 40+ is an option. If there is a surplus of pilots why should an airline hire a 40+ and get 20 some years of service, when a 20 something will give then 40 years of service. It's all about supply and demand.

Airlines do try to spread the age when it comes to hiring, since a few airlines have been punished when a large portion of the workforce retire at once. Happened, and is happening, at the moment. Currently, it is a blessing with the downturn but during an upturn then it is noticeable.

When I started training at my airline we had guys around 40 who were civilian (military is another story), so it's possible.

hedge

8th Jul 2009, 16:25

jetzup - as you rightly point out, if your financial situation is very sound then by all means go for it.

I'm not sure of the price of a full time integrated FATPL course in the UK now (or are we talking modular); but I don't think you'd get much change out of 60,000GBP after fees and accommodation are paid for. Then (if integrated) being unwaged for 12 - ???.months after leaving a well paid job. Well that's a real nice car. Its big money to most people.

Desk-pilot

8th Jul 2009, 16:55

I was a mid-life career changer - trained aged about 35, first job turboprop FO at 38 and still there aged 40 so it can be done and indeed I know another guy who also went through OATS around the same time as me who got Jet2 at 37 ish. Since joining my outfit I have actually come across a now training Captain who was a TV repairman for 22 years, first commercial job aged 42 and he's now a line training Captain on the Dash 8 so that's probably a salary around £70k ish so you can do quite well even doing this later in life.

On the other hand I do think that it is harder to get a job at 40 than it is at 20 assuming similar grades/ability etc. For that reason unless you have significant private flying experience or are looking to get a job instructing etc I would strongly advocate integrated training if you are older to improve your employment prospects with airlines.

As a lot of people have said on here I really think a lot depends on how much financial pain you can take - I gross about £32-33k a year, in my last year IT contracting I made £119k, even in my permie IT career I wade roughly double what I earn now. It can be very frustrating not having very much money at this age and with no sign of the job market improving for a year or two yet there is simply little chance of advancement - in short I'm stuck on £33k until either people start leaving the company and I get command or until I get a job with a better paid employer.

Despite all that I am much happier overall than I was doing my old job. With two years commercial flying now I still love it much of the time. I'd say I still like it enough that if I won the lottery I'd carry on doing it (albeit on a part time basis) but it's not as great as a day off anymore (which is how I felt initially!)

Not sure if this helps or confuses, but wish you luck anyway and would be interested to know what you decide.

Desk-pilot

Ray Finkle

9th Jul 2009, 00:33

On the other hand, I know plenty of guys I came through training with who were 19 or 20 and the passengers looked at them with surprise, and hesitation, that they were even old enough to be PIC. Pissed them off royally! Not that I blame them. One may be say 21 but have the face of a 15 year old, not that there's anything wrong with that, but passengers are gonna look twice. Heck, you'll love looking years younger when you get older. LOL!

Not saying this is right either. Just a fact. Your screwed either way. LOL! You either look too young or too old. Maybe its the 30 year olds that find peace and solice. LOL! JK!

Im a 40 year old Corporate FO. I started my career a little later as well. I also instruct. I get more feedback that people feel more comfortable training with me because Im older and therefor probably have more experience. Ive never gotten a look flying Coporate or Charter with my 3 stripes on that suggested no one trusted me because Im 39 or 40 and a health hazard. LOL!

RichT

9th Jul 2009, 13:33

I learned to fly at 39. Now a training capt with the biggest airline in europe. In the last year I have flown with 3 ex policemen an ex dentist and a bank manager. As for the slow learning BS this is something youngsters wish is true. I will warn you though this may be the best job I have had but it is by far the worst industry I have worked in. Any glitch in the ecconomy and airlines go to the wall faster than any other business and in the current climate its not a good time young or old.
Good luck Rich

Cpt.Iwillbe

10th Jul 2009, 08:22

:ok: God bless us all, go, go, go. I heard from my commercial pilot friends that its ok and 40 is still young.

Am working, studying, building my house, doing ground school at home and have a wife with 3 kids to love and care for.

Am 37 and with god's grace will go anywhere next February to get my CPL with whatever rating I can afford on USD20K. The rest is also in god's hands again. When I return from my training, will resume my work while doing the most with whatever I have aquired during my flying voyage. Should I get a flying job, amen:D I will not think twice but fly the rest of my life.

I always wanted to be a pilot, since age 3. I attended ground school at 14 and did my 1st solo at 17. With no money and no sponsers, I stopped because I had to live and took any job that puts food on the table. For 20 long years I saved and saved and saved and saved, looking up to the sky each time an aircraft passed, till now...

Please keep in touch & god bless each & every one of you out there, amen:ok:

potkettleblack

10th Jul 2009, 10:38

From someone that started out mid 30's here are some things to consider......

You mentioned "airlines" in your opening post. I don't know if your ambition is to join the big boys or be happy at a smaller outfit.

As you are 40 and have roughly 2-3 years of training ahead of you then you will be finished at approximately 43. Assuming you secure a job straight off then you need to carefully consider what options in terms of a career are available for you should your ambition be to sit in the LHS of a commercial aircraft.

The larger airlines would have a time to command in excess of 10 years. Many are running at 15-20 years plus. As I am sure you are aware the likes of BA, Virgin, BMI, Aer Lingus all reportedly have excess pilots. Some will no doubt be let go in the near future. When these companies hire again the furloughed pilots are usually the first recalled. During this time the time to command invariably "maxes" out although its a moot point as they are not hiring in anycase.

So the big boys really aren't that much of an option to you in my opinion unless you wanted to be a career f/o. And to get into the big outfits you need hours on type which can only be gained from getting a start somewhere else unless you were going to go to Oxford on the integrated route and hope to be picked up by someone like BA straight out of school. The chances of this are so remote (for any student) that I wouldn't be putting the house on it.

So that leaves the next tier of operators. The low cost and charters. The largest hirer of low time pilots is a well known low cost carrier that I am guessing RichT is a training captain at. At the moment they are recruiting at a much lower level than they have historically. On top of your initial training costs you will need to write a large cheque for your type rating and be available to work at any of their bases. You will likely be employed on a contract and paid by the block hour. The amount you earn is dependant on the hours you fly and as has been well documented many pilots are seeing a significant drop in annual flying hours and hence income.

As to the charters companies, well most notably CTC has provided a large number of low houred pilots over the years. Their holding pools are full of freshly qualified people that have jumped through numerous hoops to sit waiting for a start. The holding pools are growing by the week as no one is hiring to any significant extent. The "newish" trend to employ pilots on summer only contracts and then release them back to the hold pools is a disturbing trend altogether.

Next on your list are the regional operators including the turbo props eg: Flybe, Southwest, Aer Arran etc. This I think is your best chance. Time to command can be relatively short (say 3-5 years) when the market picks up as "generally" many of the younger pilots will seek a move onto jets creating spaces. Your age can be an advantage with these operators as you may be seen as someone they can rely on to hang around given your maturity and possibly family commitments etc.

Additionally there are the biz jet operators, freight and other niche operators such as air taxi and medivac flights. Many of these jobs go unadvertised and selection is through word of mouth recommendations so networking will be important.

All in all there are so many ifs and buts to consider but at the end of the day the only person holding you back is yourself. If you go into it with eyes wide open and adjust your goals accordingly then you can make a career out of it. But do research in detail the terms and conditions that you are likely to earn as the return on investment can be quite poor.

RichT

10th Jul 2009, 11:40

Some very sound advise from potkettleblack and I would just add that you may have to consider living and working abroad.

Australianguy

10th Jul 2009, 14:03

$$$$ if you have enough then you will be fine no matter what the age. Reality is that at 40 you can kiss a jet job goodby, despite what the newbies that have never made it say. :ugh:

Oldie-Going-For-It

10th Jul 2009, 14:19

Thank you for all of your replies - and thanks, in advance, for any more discussion yet to come...

I am currently a maths teacher, so salary differences with newly hired low-hours FO's are negligible; i.e. I won’t lose out too much financially. I aim to work on the ‘supply-teacher-circuit’ throughout my flight training to keep a few pennies coming in on non-flying days. Further, even though times in aviation are hard, I decided to get moving a.s.a.p..

Bellyair, you disappoint me with your comments. I am more than capable of making my own decisions and have made a decision without the ‘committee’ you refer to. Look at my initial post.

Did I ask if I should or shouldn’t train? No, I didn’t.
Did I ask for help in deciding? No, I didn’t?
Did I ask for encouragement? No, I didn’t?

I asked why there appears to be an issue in hiring a 40 year-old, and also for guidance on getting through the next few years - not whether I should go through the next few years. I hope you pay more attention to actual matters at hand when you’re flying ...otherwise you could be a danger.

As for everyone else – great discussion; thanks

Oldie

T7C

10th Jul 2009, 15:26

I hope you pay more attention to actual matters at hand when you’re flying ...otherwise you could be a danger.

Bit strong there, considering you haven't flown yet...

In any event, I think JB007, potkettleblack and Bealzebub have illustrated the point quite well.

Good luck to you though, you're gonna need f:mad:in' bags of it given the state of the industry and future outlook.

Oldie-Going-For-It

10th Jul 2009, 15:48

Bit strong there, considering you haven't flown yet...

Do you need to have flown more than a handful of hours to have a reasonable opinion on the importance of reading, and correctly interpreting, instructions? ...in fact, I would hope that you have that ability before you begin flying.

I guess many PPRuNe-ers are fed up with the ‘age-old debate’ - so the mere mention of 'training as an oldie' probably incites such knee-jerk reactions, even though the actual topic is somewhat different. I guess I can live with that!

XXPLOD

10th Jul 2009, 18:37

Interesting thread! By coincidence I was at TAG Farnborough today and got chatting to the first officer on the biz-jet which was reason for my presence there. I said my mad plan was to to do my ME CPL/IR on retirement aged 51 (assuming fit & healthy) with the long shot hope of maybe a RHS on a TP or if not, I'd still be happy as Larry doing some instructing. As a previous poster mentioned, I would be a 25 year PPL holder with probably over 1000 hours.
His view was that it wasn't so mad, he'd known of several do it at that age.

Obviously I'd have a police pension, so I wouldn't really need to earn any money, which the more I read on here will probably be fortunate. :uhoh:

JB007

11th Jul 2009, 00:38

Good luck to you OGFI...just be aware, the stories on this thread of 40+ guys changing career and succeeding, haven't achieved this in the present industry climate...

I don't know where you are with your PPL, but I certainly wouldn't commit to professional training/financial deposit until this winter is behind us!

Ian the Aviator

16th Jul 2009, 12:04

Hi all,

About 10 years ago I was in the same position - 39 years old, looking for a career change to fly, etc, etc. and was the ripe ole age of 41 by the time I had my Froz ATPL...... and was there a queue of airlines at my door?? No :mad: way !!!

But I stuck with it, did the FI thing for a while and eventually got a part time job on a Cheiftain....

Now I have the best job on the world - LHS in a nice shiny biz-jet.

Did my age make any difference?

In training - definately not & in many ways it was an advantage as I had considerably more 'worldy knowledge' than the very young guys

In interviews - Airlines just wern't intereted as my 'experience was not appropreate for my age' (yep - good old illegal agism !) - They wanted the early 20's guys...

In part time taxi work (in a cheiftain) and as an FI my age was seen as an advantage - Customers assume (often wrongly !) that a 40's pilot has more skill and experience than a 20's pilot

In my present job, the same applies - the customers like to see the grey hairs of experience sat up front - it makes then feel more secure....

Overall, the only disadvantage I found is that most major airlines want young guys - perhaps because they are more easily manipulated by the management?

Advantages ? Many - you have a better idea of what the world is about and the customers / passengers believe you have more experience (and therefore abillity) and feel safer with a mature pilot.

Having said all that, the way things are right now, nobody is getting work regardless of age...... but who knows - in a year or two we could all be fighting potential employers off with sticks....

Sciolistes

16th Jul 2009, 12:27

Another mid life career changer. Started training aged 35, finished aged 39, first job flying a medium jet for a low cost airline aged 40. It is possible, but if my experience is anything to go by you have to be supremely flexible. I sensed that ageism seems to be more of a problem on the continent than in the UK or outside of Europe.

RedPortLeft

16th Jul 2009, 13:44

It's not just me then ! I'm starting at 36 from a "career" in IT (although not quite with Desk-pilot's salary) which holds no interest for me any more. I'd be quite happy at the pointy end of a twin prop taxi even if it was low-paid, etc. It's taken a while to find out what I want to do with life but sitting in an office all day is certainly not it.
Good luck to everyone else and thanks for starting this thread :ok:

Torque Tonight

16th Jul 2009, 16:59

What's wrong with being 40 when you start training?

Nothing whatsoever. Just don't be too surprised if after you qualify you find yourself unemployed, £70k lighter and trying to return to your previous line of work. At the moment there are pilots who tick all the boxes for employability stacking shelves and flipping burgers. You'd be a brave man to embark on professional training at the moment but if you wish to roll the dice it's your call.

Good luck!

JB007

16th Jul 2009, 17:15

I'd be quite happy at the pointy end of a twin prop taxi even if it was low-paid, etc.

That comment is one of the major things to take away from this thread, 40+ years of age and you're saying you're happy to spend in excess of £50,000 just to settle on a low paid job flying a light twin for an Air Taxi company? (Do such companies still exist? - i'd put a bet on a high number of P1 hours required...)

I'd question your decision making...I say again, you WILL want to work to live, not the other way round...anyone above 40 years of age starting out now is taking a huge risk...

Torque Tonight

16th Jul 2009, 17:35

Ex-frontline military pilot, 4-figure number of hours, first attempt good passes at all ground and flying tests for fATPL, 30ish, applied to virtually every aircraft operator on Earth including 'twin prop taxi' since qualifying about a year ago.

Number of interviews in that time? Go on guess. Let's just say it's less than 2.

Those that say they'd be happy to settle for air taxi work / instructing / ferrying etc etc, don't seem to realise that the jobs market is totally f**ked (sorry, I mean flooded) all the way from Senior Captains on heavies all the way down to glider tug pilots who work for nothing. Hell, I've had to spend the last few months working in a coffee shop to scrape by and even there we've been getting about 100 applications for each position that comes up (and I'm only there because the temping agencies have more regulars already on their books than vacancies).

Good time to embark on a career change? Errr, no.

MIKECR

16th Jul 2009, 17:48

Got to agree with JB007. Was offered an interview last year for one of the so called 'twin prop air taxi/medical type.....jobs that some refer to. Guess what....12k(GBP) annual salary!!! Anyone who says they'll be happy to do that kind of work after leaving a decent career needs a serious wake up call. They pay more flipping burgers in Macdonalds!

icarter

17th Jul 2009, 01:29

Hi all,
New hear myself and it seems I am in a similar boat so rather than repeat things in a new post...
I am 36 now but unfortunately due to personal financial reasons, I haven't the funds to even start my PPL(A) until I am 40!
When I do start though there is no limit on how fast I can get through ALL my courses other than I have chosen to go down the modular route to obtaining everything course wise leading to an ATPL(F).
I am currently a serving officer of the police (8 yrs). I will not give up my current job until I have secured a position as a flying career.
I am however willing to start off in either private jets or turboprops etc and if I was later able to get into the bigger airliners then that would be a bonus. As already mentioned by a few of you, it is an expensive investment but if I saw EVERYONE on every forum saying NO...IT'S 100% IMPOSSIBLE TO BE TAKEN ON BY ANYONE BETWEEN MID 40's & 50 then I wouldn't even be on here but I am finding glimmers of hope so continual comments and thoughts please .........

by the way... I never got any C or above passes when I was in school in my GCSE's so I am currently doing maths & english GCSE home study... is this ok or do you think I should look at adding any other subjects ?

Many Thanks in advance

Rollingout

17th Jul 2009, 01:43

Please excuse my ignorance. I'm sort of in the same boat albeit 30 yrs old, not 40. Anyway, wouldn't it be advisable to train while the jobs are scarce so that when the market begins to pickup you are primed and ready to look for jobs? Otherwise, if you wait for the good times to come you will still have to train anyway and then be stuck back in the next lull.
I know it's getting a little off track but I just thought I'd ask those in the game. Only hang up I can see is that even after training you will still have low hours....

RedPortLeft

17th Jul 2009, 07:20

OK, I've started something here, let me try again ...

They pay more flipping burgers in Macdonalds!

This highlights the point I was trying (failing?) to make - I'm not doing it for the money. I've had highly paid jobs with no life - what's the point, you're only here once ? Fair enough I realise I might never get anywhere with it but if you don't try you never will.

Anyway, wouldn't it be advisable to train while the jobs are scarce so that when the market begins to pickup you are primed and ready to look for jobs? Otherwise, if you wait for the good times to come you will still have to train anyway and then be stuck back in the next lull.

Sounds reasonable to me !

aztruck

17th Jul 2009, 21:27

Its all about the art of the possible. Can you get a FATPL at 40?
Absolutely.

Can you get a job at 40, and a first flying job at that?
Well it depends a lot on expectation, attitude and ability.

At the moment the job market is awful, and airlines are looking for the cheapest possible solutions commensurate with the experience they require.

I think you have to be prepared to be in the wilderness for a couple of years whilst the world gets its act together.

The key is to be in touch with aviation all the time, and if you can, to be in touch with it in such a way that a potential employer regards you as a known quantity.
For example, work as cabin crew, work in ops, work in ground services etc etc.
Dont underestimate the Human factor in recruitment.

The alternative is to sign up for the whole line training package etc etc. this is however, expensive, and difficult to justify without some reasonable expectation of a job at the end of it. In the good times F/o's on such schemes found themselves instant employment. Now however many of the recent graduates have found themselves out on a limb after 6 months and 300 hours. Some will never return to aviation, will work like dogs to pay off their bank arranged "sponsored" overdrafts, and tell people that it was great while it lasted.
Others, for whom flying was maybe more than just a bank job, will go the extra mile and stay in touch with aviation.

The latter category stand a good chance when recovery sets in.

Its not all gloom, but at 40, if its just money you're after, you are barking up the wrong tree.
With realistic goals you may well succeed, and, like everything, if your not a player, you cant be in the game.
In other words, you may well make your own luck simply by being in the right place at the right time, clutching the right bits of paper and able to start on Monday!:ok:

potkettleblack

18th Jul 2009, 15:10

In response to icarter:-

When I do start though there is no limit on how fast I can get through ALL my courses other than I have chosen to go down the modular route to obtaining everything course wise leading to an ATPL(F).

There is a clock ticking I am afraid once you start on the "professional" element of your training. Download a copy of LASORS from the CAA website. Once you take your first ATPL ground exams then the clock starts ticking. There are various rules regarding the number of sittings you are allowed and the overall time to successfully pass all 14 exams. There are also further rules pertaining to obtaining a CPL and IR within a period of time. Its all set out in Section J of LASORS. Its a must read.