Kingfisher rising like a phoenix [Archive]

320capt.

1st Jul 2009, 04:24

Clearly if the frequent reports by the likes of Economic Times are to be believed, Mallya is looking to sell some equity ( SIA, BA Indigo partners) to anyone wlling to pay HIS price. The problem for Mallya is anyone willing to buy will want management control.. will he be willing to give that??

should make things interesting in the coming months if that dose happen. In current enviroment any money other than high price Debt is very difficult to come by.

Too many incidents of late.. and mostly basic errors.. a bit disconcerting i might add. Anyway we carry on in the uncertain enviroment hoping boss has a plan.

Cheers to all keeping the faith.:hmm:

Sky Dancer

1st Jul 2009, 09:20

The fact is that if you were to look at the state of Kingfisher from a pure finance point of view , there really isn't much hope for it's survival unless there is an outside party willing to invest and take the responsibility of the huge debt burden.Better than that would be to start another airline.On the other hand if Dr.Mallya is willing to off load substantial stakes in his other companies to keep KF afloat then yes it would survive.But if you want long term stability it's high time that KF have a man who is aviation savy and who has a free hand in running the airline.Alex Wilcox was the right man..unfortuantely KF lost him...:ok:

condorbaaz

1st Jul 2009, 18:01

SpiceJet, Kingfisher Expect to Break Even This Financial Year - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124642981403978581.html)

bepositive1

2nd Jul 2009, 05:49

Wonder How much he would sell ??
Long time back VJM said KFA is his baby and always would be !!

rubik101

3rd Jul 2009, 07:04

When you reflect that Kingfisher 320 made his new thread in October of 2008 with the dire warning that inevitable sinking was imminent, you can see that he is probably not the one to suggest your lottery numbers!

Many posters on the thread seemed only too delighted at the prospect of the airline going bust. I wish all the nasty plagues imaginable on them and your daughters and wish Kingfisher and all their employees the very best of luck!

heavenbound

6th Jul 2009, 08:25

kfa's debts have mounted further and whoever gives them money will not be in the right frame of mind.

any idea whats happened to the two A330s still lying unused? one i believe one is a christmas tree.:eek:

condorbaaz

6th Jul 2009, 13:02

apparently zey have not made salary payments till now...

phoenix getting singed???

manjeet2253

7th Jul 2009, 03:23

Please check your PM sir.

scorpilot

7th Jul 2009, 09:57

I am amazed and disappointed by the comments of some in this post...indair and figure of...

An airline has an incident where the wingtip gets damaged by a shelter in an airforce airport....and you guys make a joke about it...are you professional pilots or a bunch of " desperate housewives" ...get a life !

IndAir967

7th Jul 2009, 15:09

:{kingfisher plane hit an air force bunker:{

I think now i sound professional eh:p?
Cheers:ok:

scorpilot

10th Jul 2009, 04:31

losers!...hope you enjoy reading about your own airline when someone writes in a similar vein..its amazing how KF evokes such strong interest even now...and no I dont fly the ACJ!

moderate

10th Jul 2009, 05:51

Showing their interest in any company in these desperate times need not say much of that company.............that it is poorly run by a very corrupt 'team' is very obvious to many in this field so lets not live in denial here.

To safe-guard your own interests there and for the sake of the staff living day-to-day, it would be best that its faults are discussed more openly.

Hopefully, VJM would get to know these things (hope he picks some comments of pprune......but it may not be to his glossy liking...) and think of putting them right.........may not be too late even now.
But if people wish to live in denial........:confused::confused::confused:

scorpilot

10th Jul 2009, 10:03

...you are probably one of the 340 guys and I empathise with you...if not point taken.

i am just specifically pointing out to how some members revel in making a joke out of an aviation incident, could have happened to any one of us...its got nothing to do with the financial turmoil or corruption!

we all love our jobs not necessarily our employers:=

condorbaaz

10th Jul 2009, 11:12

when the reports of taxi incident it will probably show f/o was noting clearance, there were no guidelines and the air force as usual had no taxi guide lines for non mil ac. all contributory but the pilot Captain takes the fall...

Sky Dancer

10th Jul 2009, 18:58

Point well said.It's easy to laugh at another's mistakes but it takes a professional pilot to try and understand the circumstances that caused it and try and avoid it himself and also to share that knowledge with fellow pilots so that is doesn't happen to anyone else in future.My sympathies with the crew ...:{:ok:

scorpilot

11th Jul 2009, 13:57

some sane contributions...thanks!

Mumbai, July 11, 2009—Kingfisher Airlines, India’s premier five star airline, today announced a roadmap for the next phase of its international route network.

2 New Routes Announced out of Mumbai

Beginning September 2009, Kingfisher Airlines plans to launch two new flights. The two new routes will be Mumbai – Singapore and Mumbai – Hong Kong. Both will be daily direct return services and will be operated using the brand new Airbus A330-200 aircraft. Bookings for travel on these sectors are expected to be opened shortly.

3 New Routes Proposed out of New Delhi

Kingfisher Airlines has applied to the Ministry of Civil Aviation to commence operations on the New Delhi – London – New Delhi sector. The flights on this route will also be operated using the Airbus A330-200 and launch dates will be announced once the requisite regulatory approvals are in place. The launch of this new route will mark the first time that Kingfisher Airlines will commence international flights out of New Delhi.

Besides this route, there are plans to start flights from New Delhi to Bangkok and from New Delhi to Dubai. The flights on these two routes will be operated using the Airbus A320 / A321 aircraft.

3 New Routes Proposed out of Mumbai

There are also plans to commence flights between Mumbai and Bangkok, between Mumbai and Dubai and between Mumbai and Colombo. The flights on these routes will also be operated using the Airbus A320 / A321 aircraft.

Lets hope for the best....

leewan

11th Jul 2009, 15:06

The SIN-BOM route was supposed to be officially launched sometime in the middle or late of last year. Then it was postponed to Jan or Feb 09. And that was also a no-show.
Sep 09:hmm:, not really optimistic about it showing up, esp with the current economic climate.
Then again, there would be a kingfisher a/c landing in SIN. But it would be VJM a/c landing for the Singapore leg of the F1.:) A kingfisher A320 was in town during the last F1 period.

Al Fakhem

13th Jul 2009, 06:00

Another indication of how business must be going for the "King of Good Times" is that the police and a bailiff turned up at Force India's trailer on Friday, prior to the German Grand Prix at Nürburgring, and demanded immediate settlement of some €800,000 in unpaid bills.

Bernie Ecclestone apparently settled the amount for them in order to avoid Force India's exclusion from the race as a result of their property being seized.

Lemon Grass

13th Jul 2009, 06:46

...and just for a change, all their ATR training has been suspended in TLS, KL and BKK until payment received.

hpcock

13th Jul 2009, 07:40

& while we're at it.... BLR-CMB has been withdrawn, along with BLR-LHR.

Given the demise of the LHR route, I struggle to see which direction KF are heading. Good luck to all involved, but there really needs to be a radical shake up in the management at KF House.

PS... Have KF settled their hotel & fuel bills as yet?

Sky Dancer

14th Jul 2009, 03:01

This guy is really a joke...:ok:

Abacus

14th Jul 2009, 17:00

I see VJM is at his favourite playground again, his 319 parked up in its usual spot in Nice!

Obviously just not taking things seriously at all!

Good luck chaps!

Ps when does the BLR - LHR route finish, and whats happening to the crews?

condorbaaz

14th Jul 2009, 17:23

Apparently only
BLR-LHR finishes on 15-sep 09
And
BOM-HKG and BOM SIN commence at the time.
Also DEL LHR likely to start as well.

Ergo the crew stay hopefully

BOEING777X

16th Jul 2009, 05:28

Kingfishers recent announcement of route changes leaves it open to being decimated by bigger and better run carriers (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2009/07/16/kingfisher-airlines/).

Mr Mallya's airline does not have the sort of investor appeal he would have people believe and its only a matter of time before the UB brewery board get fed up with cross-subsidising this failed airline.

leftseatview

16th Jul 2009, 15:34

While actual indicators of impending doom might make for rivetting reading...if not last ditch attempts at recovery .......this is more of the same old whining.

Let me get this straight...he made an error in ordering the 340s,however in having realised this error,he is now also wrong in disposing of them!

Unlike the case of Air India,KFA does clear outstanding bills,if perhaps a little behind and sometimes under threat of being denied further credit.....not a compleatly alien business "practice" in these trying economic conditions.

However the fact that KFA ows money to Jet is news to me,so looking forward to more info on that story soon..

BOEING777X

16th Jul 2009, 16:39

KFA does clear outstanding bills

That is highly debatable!

Source (http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?a=jhqrXwehfch&title=Kingfisher_owes_oil_PSUs_Rs_950_cr&tag=topnews)

Kingfisher owes oil PSUs Rs 950 cr
2009-07-16 17:59:23

Vijay Mallya-owned Kingfisher Airlines owes state-run oil companies over Rs 950 crore (Rs 9.50 billion) in unpaid fuel bills while financial crisis-hit NACIL has cleared almost two-thirds of its outstanding.

Kingfisher Airlines owned Rs 1,030.08 crore (Rs 10.30 billion) in unpaid bills for buying jet fuel from Indian Oil , Bharat Petroleum and Hindustan Petroleum on December 31, 2008. It stood at Rs 950.46 crore (Rs 9.504 billion) as on May 31, 2009, Petroleum Minister Murli Deora said in a written reply in Lok Sabha.

On the other hand, National Aviation Company India Ltd (NACIL),which operates the merged state carriers Air India and Indian Airlines, has reduced its outstanding from Rs 1,311.91 crore (Rs 13.119 billion) to Rs 472.93 crore (Rs 4.729 billion).

Jet Airways has reduced outstanding from Rs 1,266.21 crore (Rs 12.662 billion) to Rs 760.07 crore (Rs 7.60 billion), Deora said.

Kingfisher owned most to HPCL , with its unpaid fuel bill running into Rs 598.78 crore (Rs 5.987 billion). It owed HPCL Rs 523.34 crore (Rs 5.233 billion) on December 31, 2008. Kingfisher also owned BPCL Rs 314.32 crore (Rs 3.143 billion) and another Rs 37.36 crore (Rs 373.6 million) to IOC.
NACIL reduced its outstanding towards IOC from Rs 877.13 crore (Rs 8.771 billion) to Rs 307.49 crore (Rs 3.074 billion) while that towards BPCL came down to Rs 91.56 crore (Rs 915.6 million) from Rs 250.43 crore (Rs 2.504 billion). It owned HPCL Rs 73.88 crore (Rs 738.8 million), down from Rs 184.35 crore (Rs 1.843 billion), Deora said.

In case airlines fail to pay their dues, they are put on 'cash and carry' (pay cash to buy fuel) and interest is recovered on all overdue payments, he said.

Deora said Jet Airways had reduced its outstanding towards IOC from Rs 1,053.08 crore (Rs 10.53 billion) to Rs 644.96 crore (Rs 6.449 billion). while that towards BPCL to Rs 111.77 crore (Rs 1.117 billion) from Rs 210.46 crore (Rs 2.104 billion).

Besides the three airlines, Paramount Airways owed Rs 25.82 crore (Rs 258.2 million) to oil companies and Spice Jet Rs 16.24 crore (Rs 162.4 million).

"As on December 31, 2008 and May 31, 2009, five airlines owned Rs 3,658.06 crore (Rs 36.58 billion) and Rs 2,225.52 crore (Rs 22.25 billion), respectively, to oil companies," he said.

"The issue of outstanding dues was also taken up with the ministry of civil aviation which advised the airlines to clear their outstanding dues promptly," he added.

heavenbound

18th Jul 2009, 14:06

Interesting how he keeps piling up debt.

Even if he does start to SIN and HK- not up on the site as yet- and its already end July, anybody know what aircraft he's using?
hear arik air deal for 2 more A330s did not work out.:{

condorbaaz

21st Jul 2009, 02:47

BOM to HK & SIN 330 as per

http://avindia.*************/2009/07/kingfisher-airlines-includes-hk-not.html

Tuesday, July 14, 2009
Kingfisher Airlines Includes HK, Not China, In Expansion Plans
Kingfisher Airlines, which markets itself as "India’s premier five star airline," has included flight services to Hong Kong - but not to mainland China - in its newly announced international route expansion plans.
From September, Kingfisher plans to launch two new flights, between Mumbai–Singapore and Mumbai–Hong Kong. Both services will be daily direct return flights using the new Airbus A330-200 aircraft.
Kingfisher Airlines has applied for approval from the Indian Ministry of Civil Aviation to start flights between New Delhi–London, which would be its first international flights out of New Delhi.
14/07/09 Gary Bowerman/BizChinaUpdate

| To Read the News in Full | PermaLink |

heavenbound

26th Jul 2009, 11:53

The ministry of civil aviation has denied any permission has been sought for KFA flights from delhi- :(

navin_menon

27th Jul 2009, 12:34

"SpiceJet, Kingfisher Expect to Break Even This Financial Year - WSJ.com"

Hahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!:}

Edforce1

29th Jul 2009, 16:03

Good luck to the folks at Kingfisher Airlines:
Kingfisher Airlines posts FY09 loss, issues pay delay warning to sta

AGENCIES 29 July 2009, 11:47am IST MUMBAI: Private carrier Kingfisher Airlines Ltd said on Wednesday it posted a net loss of 16.09 billion rupees on net sales of 52.7 billion rupees for the year-ended March 31, 2009. Year-ago figures were not immediately available.

The airlines warned its 6000 employees of delay in salary.

In an email sent, Hitesh Patel, executive vice-president, Kingfisher Airlines, wrote, "Along with all other airlines, we are in a tight situation regarding finances. You can expect to be in embarrassing situations with our vendors; your salaries may be delayed but never beyond the 7th."

ZFT

29th Jul 2009, 21:25

You can expect to be in embarrassing situations with our vendors

Asset seizure cannot be too far away now.

condorbaaz

31st Jul 2009, 18:42

fullstory (http://www.ptinews.com/news/205981_Private-air-carriers-not-to-fly-on-August-18)

beginning of the end?

Wannabe Flyer

1st Aug 2009, 07:18

Laugh all you want, in the end there will be 6000 qualified people looking for jobs, maybe even your jobs............... Market economic guys, cost of labor will come down and all flyboys might need to take a paycut.

Lets see which politician comes forward to protect 6000 jobs this time!

Buying Gopi was a bad bad move. Should have let him crash and burn and then picked up the equipment for scrap value. He would have been the first airline to close

moderate

4th Aug 2009, 11:11

Hey, didn't someone speak of expansion plans the other day? Looks like no one knows where they are heading..........well, they never knew that from DAY ONE did they???..........blind management leading the not so blind, mate?!

So it appears that the phoenix is SINKING faster that the Titanic these days? That's why there were so many posts asking a few on this thread NOT TO live in denial and dismiss those who spoke facts and figures.........truely feel for the staff who may have done all they could to keep it afloat..........no sympathy to the top bosses who robbed VJM and the staff.

No sympathy for VJM who chose to go on an ego trip and gambled recklessly on the careers of many......http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/icons/46.gif

WOW99

4th Aug 2009, 13:21

well KFA has 75% of its fleet as low cost ,load factor more than 70%,half of the fleet is ATR(break even of just 12 pax per sector).

If rest of the low cost are doing great than so is KFA ,infact better than everyone.This is just a ploy by VJM and band of brothers JET to project a loss so the govt. caves in to allow foriegn ownership or partnership.Remember early bird gets the worm.only 2 private players flying abroad........

heavenbound

9th Aug 2009, 12:35

wow99- the question is who is buying????

also the drama the fia did, was revealing - showing no direction no cooperation amongst the airlines.

meanwhile, anyone knows how many ar training in lhr for the a330 for singapore and hk?

does vjm lose his lhr spot if he withdraws from blr and does not start another sector/:8

condorbaaz

10th Aug 2009, 18:40

All training in India for 320 and 330.
HK SIN training in sim.
LHR slot will go to Delhi Lhr Flt.

ABCD Pilot

16th Aug 2009, 17:34

maybe they should be allowed to serve Liqour on board flights, den that way they can make extra money with the delicious kingfisher beer. Only problem is, the pilots might drink all the profits FIRST. hehe. :ok:

Schumi - Red Baron

17th Aug 2009, 13:52

Kingfisher might be going the Ryan air way!!!:hmm:

Kingfisher Red may start charging for food - Corporate News - livemint.com (http://www.livemint.com/2009/08/16212949/Kingfisher-Red-may-start-charg.html?h=B)

Schumi - Red Baron

26th Aug 2009, 12:21

Airlines FDI investment on hold: Not good for Kingfisher.

NEW DELHI: Security concerns have forced the government to put on hold a proposal allowing foreign airlines to invest in domestic carriers. proposal by the civil aviation ministry to permit foreign airlines to pick up a 25% stake in domestic carriers is currently under the consideration of a committee of secretaries (CoS).

Foreign airlines' FDI bid fails to take off- Policy-Economy-News-The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Economy/Foreign-airlines-FDI-bid-fails/articleshow/4934809.cms)

Also Air India opposes Kingfisher to fly Delhi - London route.

Mumbai: State-owned National Aviation Co. of India Ltd (Nacil), which runs flag carrier Air India, has written to the ministry of civil aviation asking it not to allow Kingfisher Airlines Ltd to operate on the New Delhi-London route, said two Nacil executives familiar with the matter.

Delhi-London route: Nacil opposes Kingfisher - Corporate News - livemint.com (http://www.livemint.com/2009/08/24220821/DelhiLondon-route-Nacil-oppo.html?h=B)

ABCD Pilot

27th Aug 2009, 04:45

Looks like two things:

1) Air India is spending more time trying to combat the competition rather then clean up their completely inefficient airline. They are overstaffed, underqualified, and unorganized...more so then any airline in the world. The pilots and flight attendants are good chaps/gals and hard working too. Hopefully they will privatize it, allowing more room for competitors to actually compete!

2) Kingfisher is going from one unprofitable route to another? Sell the damn LHR slot...they'd make money of it! Jet was cancelled one of their flights, and sold it for more money then they had lost on that sector.

Now, I've seen on Kingfisher's wikipedia page they have 135 orders. I know they have xld alot...does anybody have any Idea how many orders they have?

Despite all this abrupt stop and backwards movement in the industry, boeing is still predicting massive growth and airlines still have tons of orders? Is this because they simply can't get rid of the orders, or do they actually expect to become profitable?

I believe KF was suppose to be profitable by 2007 (ha), I don't think they envisioned this mess!

A wise man once said: You want to become a millionaire? Start with a billion dollars, then start an airline. I believe it was the great Richard Bronson. I think Vijay just missed that when he was sippin his whisky with old chap Richard!

By the way, somebody give me a job!!!!!!!!!!

900 TT
350 Jet
Indian/FAA CFI/CPL

Willing to fly ANYTHING...except for a 172 for spirit :ugh:

matthewgamm

5th Sep 2009, 18:11

Just out of curiosity, what are the bases that ATR pilots get?

WOW99

6th Sep 2009, 03:45

The ATR bases are chennai,bangalore,hyderabad,mumbai,pune,delhi,kolkata.

KFA has started throwing expats out.:ok:

in paradise

6th Sep 2009, 04:20

I am EXpat ,Thats why KFA has just offered me a job:rolleyes:

WOW99

6th Sep 2009, 05:59

The news of expats being given pink slips is not aimed at anyone.Its the latest news thts all.Yes,KFA may recruit expats for ATR as few indians are captains there.

AriGold

6th Sep 2009, 21:02

THe Indian Aviation market keeps changing, and there are so many different conflicting reports that it is hard to keep track.

wetdrops

7th Sep 2009, 02:23

Never trust the Indians! They will talk you in to coming over by promising the World, and then fire you without even batting an eye lid. Happened to a French guy at KF. Left his job and came over. 2 weeks after he arrived in India, was given the pink slip. This is the way India is ...

AriGold

7th Sep 2009, 02:37

NEVER TRUST INDIANS? I"M INDIAN!

You suck i'm glad your friend got the pink slip, maybe he was another arrogant expat.

Wannabe Flyer

7th Sep 2009, 06:26

They will talk you in to coming over by promising the World, and then fire you without even batting an eye lid

Hmmm yes this is a very Indian thing to hire and fire, infact it us the Indians who developed it. I have never heard of anyone ever from any other country doing this. Absolutely disgraceful and disgusting! :ugh:

Wetdrops in case you have not sensed the sarcasm :p...........This is business. Maybe the expat was a moron, I am sure the fine print in the contract allowed him to be "laid off" or he would have gone screaming to court for compensation. And oh yes he did quit his other job for more money and he is above 18 and a mature adult, so that was his choice.

Always read the fine print and stop pointing a finger at others cause the other 3 point back at you :yuk:

Schumi - Red Baron

7th Sep 2009, 06:52

he would have gone screaming to court for compensation.

Which court are you talking about. The highly efficient Indian courts already have more than 3 crores cases pending.:rolleyes:

Well, anyway he could have waited another 100 light years for the decision and would have been happy if the result was in his favor.:p

The Hindu Business Line : Pending court cases (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2006/05/05/stories/2006050501431001.htm)

Wannabe Flyer

7th Sep 2009, 07:49

Schumi

You are very generous with the court date. I would have made it double your estimate. Point I was trying to make however was that a contract drawn up is thoroughly vetted by the carriers lawyer to ensure if they pull a stunt like this they can get away scott free. Expat probably went to a lawyer (not knowing the Indian system) and realized nothing is coming of it.

Point I am making, is buyer beware clause. Read the fine print and make an informed decision and then don't cry when the consequences do not work out. On a flip side he could have joined, Delhi Belly did not agree with him, he missed his green pastures i France and bolted overnight. What would the airline have done in this case????

DesiPilot

7th Sep 2009, 12:07

Well, one area where they are definitely expanding is grounding of aircrafts. I just saw VT-KFH parked up in DEL and its engine, under-carriage nicely wrapped in plastic. That makes three in DEL !!!!

wetdrops

7th Sep 2009, 13:41

Arigold,
No personal insult was intended or directed. Unfortunately, this is the truth that most of the Expats faced at KF. You may try to hide it, but there are 30-40 odd expat pilots that were sent home, after so many promises were made.

It indeed is an ugly situation. Specially, when some of those expats that were laid off, gave up secure, well paying jobs to be part of the good times!

As for arrogance ... that should have been nipped in the bud (ie .. during assesment and interview). Airlines screen their candidates in many areas. They are not offered employment just because they have a flying license and experience. This is the professional way of sourcing pilots.

Sadly, in todays aviation environment, contracts keep changing. For the expat pilots as well as for the Indian pilots. I would like to remind you of the Indian DGCA ruling regarding 6 months notice to your Employer, if you are to vacate post. What happened to that?? There was clear evidence that the Employer had violated many of the contracts and the notice period was reduced to 30 days.

If you decide to work for a foreign airline, would you not want to be treated fairly and justly? How would you feel if your Employer broke every single promise that they made, after you joined the Company? Or are you a person who enjoys seeing people being thrown out on to the streets??

Think about it?? The truth unfortunately hurts and I do not want any pilot (French, Indian or any other nationality) to go through what that poor French guy went through!!

dgtl887

7th Sep 2009, 17:25

@wetdrops

The question is - why is this an INDIAN phenomenon ?
(Not that I'd mind any expat reading this and deciding not to join. More jobs for locals and all that....)

Well, anyway he could have waited another 100 light years for the decision and would have been happy if the result was in his favor.

A light year is a unit of distance. :}

Sky Dancer

7th Sep 2009, 18:37

Well guys , what goes around comes around.Wetdrops is right no other nation changed the terms and conditions as fast as the airline companies in India.And there are many who should take the blame for that.But as I said....what goes around.....many Indian pilots have been given in the boot is SQ and MI.Why don't you ask them what it feels like to be shown the door when you have a lot riding on that job...maybe then you'll understand what the expats here went through.At the end of the day we are pilots , we should ensure that the right guys get in and stay in,there's no place for the colour of the skin.:ok:

wetdrops

8th Sep 2009, 02:08

dgtl887,

I am not suggesting that this is only an Indian phenomenon. I am merely shedding light on something, that I know, that happened at KF to a fellow pilot. I agree with AriGold ... this could (and most likely) be happening elsewhere in the World.

At SQ and most other reputable airlines, expats are not just thrown on to the streets. Their contracts are not renewed and are advised well in advance of this. Regardless of the financial situation of the airline, their contracts are honoured, to the end. This gives a person adequate time to secure another job or plan ones finances accordingly. Unfortunately, this is not the manner pink slips were handed out in India. This applies to both pilots and cabin crew (ie; JetAirways cabin crew sacking, last year!).

Thank you Sky Dancer. You are absolutely right ... no other airline company change terms & conditions as fast as Indian airline companys do. To them, a contract is just a piece of paper! Thats why the Indian pilots cried foul and brought it to the notice of the Indian DGCA!!!

There is an aviation crisis all over the World (not only in India)!! It is so difficult to secure a job as most airlines have simply stopped hiring. The few airlines that are, are flooded with pilot applications. So, yes AriGold! If there is a job offer in India, most pilots would be back. One would be a fool not to take the opportunity. All of us have responsibilities (financial, personal, social and towards our Family). But at least, thanks to open discussions and forums like this, individuals would be more aware of whats going on where, when they take up employment!!

WOW99

8th Sep 2009, 03:55

Well one must face the reality that eventually all the expats would be phased out. Right now about 20 have been laid off,in about 2-3 mnths another 20 can be expected to be laid off,it all depends on the number of indians taking command.Indian captains cost less to the company than the expats,simple business sense.Though its sad that many good ones have been laid off.

condorbaaz

10th Sep 2009, 07:07

elsewhere in the forums,
Jet is planning to hire new pilots expats ?

AriGold

11th Sep 2009, 03:20

no, just a threat.

moderate

14th Sep 2009, 11:11

Oh Wannabe, you speak like a babe.............read the small print in an Indian contract?...........go to an Indian Court for justice?

Come off it my friend just try and grow up faster, would ya?

These guys are right ofcourse as no other Country or Airline (except ones with an image problem) would have behaved the way the 5 Star crap treated it's expats. They were the guys who were qualified to fly in poor weather conditions (which saved face for the 5 star mogul during last winter - perhaps you didn't know that?).

Well, being grateful is one thing and being treated right is another.....but both were lacking in India, my friend so please don't tell those experienced guys how to suck eggs.:\:\:\:=

Wannabe Flyer

14th Sep 2009, 16:06

Moderate,

I appreciate the expat experience and feel it is very good for Indian aviation. However much like there are many bad apples (as we saw in the recent jet airways experience). In the same way there are some expats albeit fewer who tend to create a negative perception or simply behave like thier indian counterparts and be :{ babies by making a mountain out of a molehill.

Do remember the Indian airlines would like to keep expats, however with the government constantly re drawing boundries and with the Indian pilots constantly barraging and creating a ruckus about expats, they have succumbed to public pressure.

Overall the act needs to be pieced together by the Indian Labor ministry where once and for all they need to define the laws and then stick by it regardless of all the screaming and yelling.

As for the Indian court system, well not the best, but still better than not having one like the ME, including freedom of speech! :O

moderate

15th Sep 2009, 03:24

"I appreciate the expat experience and feel it is very good for Indian aviation. However much like there are many bad apples (as we saw in the recent jet airways experience). In the same way there are some expats albeit fewer who tend to create a negative perception or simply behave like thier indian counterparts and be http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif babies by making a mountain out of a molehill".

Dunno what you mean herebrother but thanks for your honesty, elsewhere.
As for bad apples, some are still there !
Jet issue is not an Expat issue from what I know...........and babies making a mountain of a molehill - what are these, mate?
There are no simple molehills out there anyway:O.

Expat experience is of paramount importance to Indian aviation as very few locals have sufficient experience away from home and is something your DGCA is concerned of. One accident or a major incident would be enough to put the last nail in the coffin of VJM's stuttering 5 start airline but the locals don't look beyond their noses, do they?

moderate

15th Sep 2009, 03:44

"I appreciate the expat experience and feel it is very good for Indian aviation. However much like there are many bad apples (as we saw in the recent jet airways experience). In the same way there are some expats albeit fewer who tend to create a negative perception or simply behave like thier indian counterparts and be http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif babies by making a mountain out of a molehill".

Dunno what you mean here brother but thanks for your honesty, elsewhere.
As for bad apples, some of the worse are still there and holding higher posts than what they came with !
Jet issue is not an Expat issue from what I know...........and babies making a mountain of a molehill - what are these, mate?
There are no simple molehills out there, am I right ? :O.

Expat experience is of paramount importance to Indian aviation as very few locals have sufficient experience away from home and is something your DGCA is concerned of. One accident or major incident would be enough to put the last nail in the coffin of VJM's stuttering 5 start airline but the locals don't look beyond their noses, do they?

The worst is the way your HR had handled the terminations of the expats........damn disgrace, not even a third grade brewery would do things in such a unprofessional manner..........but then, what is the experience level or caliber of those in high office?

Need i say more?

Wannabe Flyer

15th Sep 2009, 05:29

Jet issue is definitely not an expat issue on the surface. It is the local pilots who are trying their level best to get the expats out and it is the local pilots who are the bad apples in this case. A few are spoiling it for the others.

I am not privy to how the HR actually handled the issue here in India, but from my understanding a pink slip is a pink slip anywhere in the world (recipient of one myself and regardless of how nicely they do it you still feel a boot up your backside as in the end you are still a foreigner and you go first).

In the bigger picture the DGCA probably in typical rushed manner did not think the entire policy out and did not lay down guidelines considering that Indian pilots would start crawling out of the wood work as soon as thier parents realized it was a high paying field. If clear and precise direction and skill and experience as well as grade levels and other such things were laid out then the airlines would have a path to tread. Black or white and not shades of grey. Unfortunately this is a the bane of the country that operates on knee jerk. :yuk: