FAA Frozen ATPL ??

[pacemakerpratik]

Does FAA accounts for the Frozen ATPL system like the CAA?
I had completed my conversion of SACAA CPL into FAA last year.. and was thinking to write exams for ATP...
I'm surprised to know that there is no such thing like Frozen ATP in FAA Regulations! :rolleyes:

Is it true that there is no Frozen ATP system in FAA regulations!

Thanks in advance.
Regards--

[Shunter]

There is NO SUCH THING as a frozen ATPL. Not under JAA, not under FAA. The difference under JAA is that the higher level exams are accepted for the lower level license meaning you don't have to do them again to get your ATPL. The term "frozen ATPL" is rather stupid, frequently used by people to pretend they have something they haven't, and causes all kinds of confusion for noobs.

There is 1 exam per license under FAA regs. The exam, whilst covering the required syllabus, is more of a formality than anything else because it's the pre-checkride oral test which is really going to stretch you.

[chuks]

The FAA ATP written exam (one, not fourteen) is very simple to study for and pass. From what I remember of it circa 1980 it had Air Law, Weight and Balance, Systems, Performance and Meteorology, just 5 areas.

You can use one of many self-study options available and, thanks to the Freedom of Information Act you can even get a copy of the actual test questions. (When I did the test there were about 900 of them, divided into those 5 categories, and there are only so many questions you can ask about, for instance, W&B. Systems, on the other hand, was based on the B727 and I am sure that has changed and moved on.) I used a combination of a programmed-learning course and plowing through those 900 questions.

When you are ready (about a week will do the job) present yourself at one of the many testing centers to do the test on-line with very little advance notice. (Remember to take the study materials along to show how you made yourself ready for the test.) After that you just need the written confirmation of the test results to hand over when you do the practical test.

Under the FAA you do not need experience in large aircraft to hold an ATP. You just need the minimum experience to take the practical test, when you are then issued your ATP. The practical test is very similar to that for the IFR with the only additional consideration being CRM, since an ATP holder might command a multi-crew aircraft.

I think that is basically it but I am ready to be corrected in any of this by those more up-to-date on the doings of the FAA.

The real problem with the FAA licence is that many places do not accept it, perhaps because it is relatively easy to obtain.

[act700]

@chuks, I'm pretty sure the question bank has grown to something like 4000 (or maybe it is 2000?) questions; still divided into major subgroups.
Yes, you are correct, the 727 has been "retired" as well, I think it's based on the 737 now. The 727 is used for the flight engineer written.
Mind you, my info is 12 years old, so I too, stand to be corrected.

Also, it is not spectacular news that one can obtain a copy of the FAA question bank, as it is the same with the (german) JAA question bank. It just cost more over here, and like everything else, is more tedious and time consuming.

I would also disagree with "FAA licenses are easier to obtain". I think that statement is missing a bit. Because just with having the/a license, does not grant you entry to any job you want. The selection, and then the training/checking process is very in depth. It is all geared toward the "practical", whereas the JAA puts a lot of weight on theory (most of which is useless in daily flying life, as well as forgotten, by the time the students/pilots reach full JAA ATPL maturity).

Having taken checkrides (for/during airline work) on both sides of the pond, I find the entire checkride experience here (Europe) a lot less stressfull than in FAA land.

Like with anything, IMHO, there is no greener grass on either side. At the end of the day the only real difference between JAA and FAA is politics. And a good portion of "my dong is bigger than your dong" mentality!

[act700]

chucks, one more note:

the only place that doesn't accept FAA licenses flat out, really is Europe.

Anywhere else, if you have the experience, your ATP is accepted for conversion or validation, ie, Asia, Middle East.

Like I said before, I think it has to do more with national protectionism than anything else.

[chuks]

Well, you must know that there is the FAA licence and then there is an ICAO licence, when these are two very different things! I think that goes way back to the fact that the USA signed the agreement that set up ICAO in 1947 but never ratified it. In other words we recognise ICAO but we did not place ourselves under their control.

My experience has been that an FAA licence is much easier to obtain than an ICAO one. I don't want to start a big "hand-bags at 20 paces" argument about which group of pilots is better, I just have experienced being licensed under both systems (FAA: ATP, FI, FE, GI) (ICAO: ATPL, FI) so that I think I know what I am writing about.

For instance:

FAA ATP written: Do self-study to whatever level you think you need, call any one of a number of testing centres to get a date, usually the next day, write one fairly simple test and get your results back within about a week.

British CAA ATPL writtens: Six months of classroom work (in my case), 14 separate writtens (unless your name is Einstein please do not tell me that General Nav is a doddle because I found it very tough and needing all of the 1:30 or whatever the time allowed was, about the same amount of time I took for the entire FAA ATP written) each costing about 90 quid that are only available on certain dates at certain venues. Miss booking a test, as happened to one of my classmates, and you are in for a long wait!

I really do not care to argue about the quality of the pilots who hold these various licenses. I have flown with those who have both or one or the other and I have found them to be wildly variable so that there's no useful way to generalise. That many ICAO licence holders are wildly snobby about how an FAA licence can be snipped off the back of a box of cornflakes, well, let's just leave them with their smug little fantasies; that doesn't matter. Here we are just writing about getting the licence, when it is easier, I find, under the FAA. I never did a ride for an airline so that might well be diffferent; I just experienced rides for the issue of this or that basic licence.

My last job, they wouldn't look at me with an FAA licence but once I had my ICAO ATPL I suddenly turned into a much better pilot. Go figure...

[act700]

chuks, I'm with you-no point in argueing who's better, caus really, dumba$$es are everywhere, irregardless of what country stamped their license!
As are competent guys/gals.

And in no way am I disagreeing with you on the JAA tests.

My point is though, that how much of the stuff you had to learn for your JAA tests, do you actually remember now?
Or, could there be possibly any practical use of knowing the Tokyo convention on a daily basis? Even during the real deal??

The FAA, in my opinion, concentrates on material that you will need (probably) for the level that you are testing at/for.
They leave the more in depth/hardcore stuff for the time when you advance to that level.

"My last job, they wouldn't look at me with an FAA licence but once I had my ICAO ATPL I suddenly turned into a much better pilot. Go figure..."
-->politics, me thinks, nothing more.
Unless of course one does magically become a better pilot upon receipt of a JAA ticket!

[flywithfun]

There is something about the FAA ATPL that hasn't been mentioned here:
You NEED to have 1500 hrs in your logbook BEFORE you can take the written (computer) test!!!

And that is the difference between JAA and FAA. JAA accepts you to do the ATPL written test any time after you got your CPL. But as long as you don't have the 1500 hrs it is called "frozen" (sonds better than "useless", doesn't it?). And many airlines have come to the questionable custom to require this "frozen" thing to hire you even when only a CPL would be necessary (and only that's what you actually have at that point).

In the US you have to present your logbook to an FAA inspector in order to get the permission to take the ATP written test (don't know exactly if a DPE can also do this...).

[Bealzebub]

Well, you must know that there is the FAA licence and then there is an ICAO licence, when these are two very different things!

Very different indeed, because the latter doesn't exist. It is often trotted out by people who fail to mention which particular jurisdiction their own licence was issued in. Usually this is in defence of the fact that it ought to be freely interchangeable or validated with one that they actually need or are seeking.

From the ICAO website:
ICAO does not issue any licences. Licences issued by ICAO Contracting States on the basis of Standards and Recommended Practices of Annex 1 – Personnel Licensing, are habitually called ICAO licences. This has led many to believe that there is a specific ICAO or international licence. The fact is that there is not one single international licence issued by ICAO or any other organization. States issue their own licences based on national regulations in conformity with Annex 1 specifications and validate licences issued by other Contracting States on the basis of bilateral or multilateral agreements or the fulfilment of nationally legislated requirements.

[act700]

flywithfun "There is something about the FAA ATPL that hasn't been mentioned here:
You NEED to have 1500 hrs in your logbook BEFORE you can take the written (computer) test!!!"

As of when is that info current? As far as I know, that is incorrect, unless it has changed recently. I did mine almost 15 years ago, and honestly, don't feel like looking at the FARs right now.
I'm pretty sure you CAN take the written ATPL written test without having 1500 hours. The test is only valid for 2 years, longer if continually employed by an airline (I think), so it does not make sense to take it until prior to having 1500 hours. Depending on how fast you think you'll get to 1500.
And as far as I know, you do not need to present your logbook to an FAA inspector; an instructor sign off is enough, who should verify you meet the minimums.
Showing your logbook to an examiner who will administer the FAA ATPL is another thing.

Bealzebub,
well done finding that....and the US/FAA is a memeber of ICAO.

Like I keep saying, it's all politics.

[chuks]

I think under the FAA system you can do the writtens whenever you like; you just have to show the study material.

You fill out the application for the practical test with the required times and it would be very foolish to pad your hours. Every so often someone is caught and made a horrible example of that way. There was one fool who had done that when he was low-time but only was caught later. He tried to argue that he didn't need the false hours but they took his licence simply for the offence of making false entries in his logbook. So, don't even THINK about that!

Also, your licence is revoked, gone, vanished, "Poof!" Not "suspended but you get it back in X months." No, you have no more licence, so that you have to go through the whole thing again, the written and the practical.

Have a look at the bottom of the application and be aware that you do not want to step over the line with the FAA. (I think it's a possible $10,000 fine plus jail time if you get caught telling porkies.) They have people on stand-by who are ready to make your life a misery if you even THINK about skating past one of their no-no's. Do not think the Feds are lax just because they are not as insanely picky as some of the JAR entities. Far from it.

You have two years before the results expire on the written but if you passed it once you can pass it again.

[lolopilot]

That's inaccurate. One can take the FAA ATP written test at anytime, without any sign-off and regardless of the number of logged hours. The results as well as the logbook(s) must be presented to the FAA examiner before the practical ATP checkride. 1500 hrs TT should have been logged in order to take the practical test. The written test is valid for two years.

[act700]

chuks:
"Also, your licence is revoked, gone, vanished, "Poof!" Not "suspended but you get it back in X months." No, you have no more licence, so that you have to go through the whole thing again, the written and the practical."


.....that is if they let you; maybe for everything BUT the ATP, cause for that, you have to be of "good moral character"!

How many of us can say yes to that?;)

[chuks]

How many guys have you worked for in aviation who are of good moral character, yet they all hold ATPs!

No, certain convictions may well see you barred from holding a licence. I think getting caught selling, smuggling or using drugs would head the list but if you have lots of speeding tickets, for instance, you might well come across as someone who just doesn't care about the Man and his rules.

Anyway, here we're just looking at what you need to do the written (nothing much) and then to do the ride (whatever the book says you need). Don't cut corners and you will have nothing to worry about.