Qantas Redundancies

[Hugh Gorgen]

As a very junior Qantas pilot, I am particularly apprehensive at present that Qantas will start sacking pilots. Whilst I strongly appreciate the efforts of AIPA to avoid this, I get the distinct impression that a number of redundancies are likely. I suppose the major concern to those facing the "chop" is that there are very limited opportunities else where in the industry and the short term outlook still continues to be gloomy.

Does anyone on this forum have any "inside" information wrt this issue?
Are Qantas obliged to pay redundancy payouts to those with less than 5 years service ? If so, what rate ?
Is AIPA looking at alternate Qantas group employment for it junior members (Q Link, Jetstar, Jetstar Asia) ?
If redundancies do occur, how will LOA 161 be applied? That is, is seniority in this instance from date of appointment ?

[pylet]

Hugh, if you want real guidance on the issue, PPRUNE is not the place to ask these questions. After a few 'on-topic' posts this thread will no doubt drift into the dribble of most others as members shed the weight off their shoulders.

Call AIPA, ask questions and convey concerns - that's what they're there for, that's why they get paid. They know the EBA better than anyone else.

[Keg]

I'll back home pylet's assessment. Any information gleaned from PPRUNE is by nature 2nd hand and thus questionable as to it's veracity. Talking directly to AIPA will get you someone who knows the award and is able to provide some assistance.

The big thing to keep in mind too is that the award requires six months notice before termination. You're safe at this stage until at least after Christmas. Small consolation I know but better than nothing.

[WoodenEye]

Hugh,

Many including myself empathise with your concern that Qantas may soon take action to reduce the number of pilots it has on its books.

While I have no "inside" information on whether or not, Qantas, will or won’t, reduce the number of pilots it currently employs, - I can unequivocally say that the plausible option is, as you suggest:

· Alternate Qantas group employment for junior AIPA members.

Makes absolutely no economic sense for Qantas to be sacking new hires and/or paying voluntary redundancy to people like me when Jetstar is slated to continue growing. [Can assure you that many of QAN’s institutional shareholders are not imamate of ‘Robbing Peter to pay Paul, especially while the Company needs to bolster its free cash flow in order to retain its Credit Rating.]

Delaying the B787 until 2014 will no doubt mean changes to yesterday’s business plan and the obvious solution to the Qantas group’s piloting needs is the Group Opportunity Allocation list (GOAL). Its introduction would:

· Help standardise operational standards throughout the Qantas Group,
· Enhance job security for all Qantas Group pilots,
· Optimise career progression for all Group Pilots in accordance with prevailing commercial reality, and
· Put in place a building block necessary for Qantas’ Globalisation.

As we all know, nothing is certain in life, especially in aviation. Nevertheless, believe changed circumstances will bring the GOAL to fruition in the not too distant future.

IMHO, is no need to sell the new car just yet?
Trust the above helps you rest easier.
Kind Regards
Ian Woods
www.aviationeconomics.com.au (http://www.aviationeconomics.com.au)

[Jetbest]

Hugh,
be carefull listening to advice from your more senior pilots and AIPA..They will be okay as always while the young guys suffer[i know it once happened to me,and i lost my job] .The QF pilots have just been given a 16% pay rise for no offsets over the term of there EBA making them the most expensive Pilot group in the world.The first thing the company did was give the 767 freighter flying away,this should tell you something,there is more to come.Flying a 767 to NZ,complete with a personal flight attendant,with crew changes etc was always a nonsense.
The GOAL list is a pipe dream and will never happen.The cost to administer it and the extra Pilots required to make it work are incalcuable.
I feel sorry for you and your colleagues in similar positions and know how you feel believe me i have been there. Hiding behind your EBA as some have suggested will not help you retain employment,it is the cause of the problem,not the solution.
Good luck to you and guys in similar positions.It is going to be a rocky road and lets hope the majority of us come through with employment.

Take care.:ok:

[wingnut69]

Where is the alternative crewing options that can be used to negotiate any new scenario that arises when Qantas decides to outsource more flying?
That's right, no where.
Forget the group list. It has some merit but the fact is the company doesn't want a bar of it and whilst some continue to hold onto 'the dream', more and more flying walks out the door. What is the size of jetstars fleet now?
Amoungst the current pilot group, there are many who have worked in other major airlines else where, seeing many variations of contracts.... good, bad and ugly. Why aren't these conditions used as examples to debate their merit amoungst all qf pilots and consider various options to create alternatives to the current award?
I suppose the biggest problem lies in the fact that the company couldn't give a flying ^&*% about any junior pilots future career and just continues on the bottom line drive.
As for redundant pilots, I'm sure the 100+ over 60s will consider their positions to look after the junior bretheren,...not.

[Dropt McGutz]

Jetbest, that 16% included pay rises for the last nearly five years that we missed out on, not over the length of the current EBA. Can you please point me in the direction where you found the figures to say that QF pilots are the most expensive in the world please? I'd be interested to see what aothers are being paid.

[Tassie Devil]

So when Qantas pilots get the chop they automaticaly want a safety net into the Q group but when a Qantaslink pilot gets told his job is no longer ( as has happened) and is looking to the group for assistance , guess what, AIPA dont answer the phone. Its taken awhile but it was always going to happen. :D

[Tempo]

Are you/were you a member of AIPA tassie devil?

[Led Zeppelin]

This is a very difficult issue for the JPA/JPCC as there is now a very close working relationship with AIPA. This is the same AIPA that has a vast majority of mainline pilots as its' members and who will do everything possible to protect those pilots above other membership groups, including Jetstar.

I am sure that Jetstar pilots will actively resist any move by AIPA to promote a scheme where Qantas pilots who are not at risk seniority wise, come into Jetstar above the lowest seniority number.

Of course this doesn't apply to junior QF pilots such as Hugh, who may be looking at redundancy later this year. In the spirit of keeping this group of people employed within the QF group, I don't believe there would be any objection to a negotiated transfer at a seniority number below the most junior Jetstar number.

[wingnut69]

Hey Led, every position AIPA has promoted has ALWAYS looked at protecting jetstar guys seniority, within jetstar, above anyone else, as it should be. The group list, as promoted by Ian also protected this important point.
This point is sometimes lost by some, to the detriment of a general movement forward with the idea of protecting jobs and not seeing the further deterioration of terms and conditions or general career progression.

[Con Catenator]

QF MOU (and, I take it, sanctioned by AIPA) pilots would have slotted in above existing Jetstar pilot slots.

How did that protect Jetstar pilot seniority ??

[Tassie Devil]

Is it possible to ring fence Qantas and let them fade away ? :)

[assasin8]

Ah, you gotta love pprune... The utter BS that gets slung back and forth, by so called experts, is astounding!!!

Certainly all doom and gloom at the moment, but get in touch with the appropriate people ie. AIPA and they will be able to shed a bit more light on the situation...

I am sure the plan changes from day to day, as far as the company is concerned, so stay tuned...

May the force be with us all...

[Tassie Devil]

Tried too get in contact with AIPA in the mid 90's , did not want to know us. Now I'm invited. How times are changing.

P.S. I dont want to see anyone loose their job ! Good luck.

[hongkongfooey]

making them the most expensive Pilot group in the world

Somebody show this man a Dragon or Cathay COS :hmm:

[Keg]

Con, the same applies if some J* crew decide to transfer to QF. They slot in above a number of QF drivers. That was the deal negotiated and agreed upon by both pilot groups. As Led Zepp well knows that same agreement allows a significant number of J* crew to transfer to mainline at a seniority number above a number a significant number of current QF drivers.

Tassie, your comments are hard to reconcile. On the one hand the prospect of 2500 well remunerated pilot jobs fading away seems to bring you great joy and yet you insist that you don't want to see people loose (sic) their jobs. If it's the former then I'm sorry that AIPA's rejection of you (I presume as a regional driver) in the mid 90s has left you so bitter and twisted. If it's the latter then your continued harping on about events of a decade and a half ago is neither productive or sensible. A number of us have apologised on this forum for the lack of foresight shown by a number of successive AIPA COMs over the years in not being more open to regional crews and then Impulse crews. A number of us have advocated for stronger ties between the pilot groups. This continued division (and faux joy at the potential demise of 1400 QF crew who weren't in QF in 95) doesn't contribute towards the unity and stability required to combat an antagonistic management regime. Each to their own I guess.

[Tempo]

Tassie Devil

Is it possible to ring fence Qantas and let them fade away ?

No.....you don't want anybody to lose their job do you.

Good luck to you too Jack

[Led Zeppelin]

Keg,

I think Con was responding to:

every position AIPA has promoted has ALWAYS looked at protecting jetstar guys seniority, within jetstar, above anyone else

That is an incorrect statement.

There was never going to be any realistic reverse transfer of JQ pilots to QF under that MOU, and so in this context, the traffic was indeed all one sided.

But to get back to the topic, and help the guy that started this thread. Both sides of the fence should be working to keep these junior QF pilots employed in the group. Jetstar desperately needs F/O's and they could fill positions immediately at the bottom of the Jetstar list.

This is what the AIPA should be pushing hardest for, not for the selfish transfer of "not at risk" pilots into the middle of the Jetstar seniority list.

[hotnhigh]

[QUOTE][There was never going to be any realistic reverse transfer of JQ pilots to QF under that MOU, and so in this context, the traffic was indeed all one sided.
/QUOTE]
:ugh::ugh: The reason why it was all one way, was because of the impact of Jetstar to promotion, the far majority would not have seniority for an fo slot in Qantas.
Anyone post 2004 would struggle for that on the east coast.
Out of interest, how many pilots within Jetstar have asked to come across to qantas on the mou? I'd imagine minimal.
Are any positions at jetstar at risk currently? This is great news for all junior QF330 SO's as they watch Jetstar 330s taxi out.

[Mud Skipper]

Hugh,

You really should be looking to get out of Qantas anyhow.
There is NO future for junior pilots in Qantas unless you are happy never being a captain for your entire working life.

Melodramatic - not really - it's the companies advertised position to grown Jetstar.
You are stuck at the bottom of a stagnant pond, run away, run as fast as you can as soon as you can. It's delusional to believe there is a healthy future in Mainline. Retirements are about to come to a screaming holt, a colossal age demographic shift is occurring as we approach the last 100 or so pre 84 employment boom pilots leave in the next few years and then there will be a long period of very few retirements and subsequent progression.

You are delusional to believe there is a future in Qantas Mainline so be proactive and make a career for yourself some where else.

Understandable though you may not want to leave the wonderful land of OZ.
In that case you will need to accept there is a significant career penalty in staying, it’s a choice – lifestyle now or career and lifestyle later.
Know what I’d be doing in your case – get a job OS with the prospect of quick command (within 5 years or less) and come back to work for Jetstar as a Captain – simple.

Pathetic you can't have a career in Qantas anymore but that's reality.:sad:

[Lodown]

Shock! Horror! Wash your mouth out with soap right now Mud Skipper.

[WoodenEye]

Hmmm!

Skippy’s conspiratorial view that the grand plan is to grow Qantas Jetstar while Mainline languishes in the mud, while plausible, probably strikes fear where it shouldn't. Any such plan is fraught with 'barriers' such as:

· the National Aviation Policy Review currently in progress,
· the Qantas Sale Act,
· multinational AOC compliance.

For more on the above barriers visit: http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/nap/files_green_paper/Aviation_Economics.pdf

Nevertheless, Kangaroos can jump high and nothing in aviation is certain. However, some obstacles are akin to jumping NYC's Empire State and Skippy ain't Superman.

IMHO, it is nimble flexibility to enable redeployment of Group aircraft to the most profitable market segment at any particular time that has the potential to maximise profits in a globalised industry and having Qantas pilots internally compete with each other won't make that possible.

As I've said already Hugh, don't sell the new car yet. :oh:

[Con Catenator]

hotnhigh

:ugh::ugh:I think youv'e asked and answered your own question here.

Or to put it another way, Qantas mainline numbers were so great that no suitable Jetstar pilot would EVER have had the numbers to slot in above the bottom of the QF list.

I would have thought that was self obvious.

Now, back to the topic, how would you propose QF deals with redundancies and placing junior pilots with Jetstar??

[toolish]

The MOU was always going to be one sided we all, from both side, knew that. Jetstar pilot knowingly gave QF pilots opportunities that would never be reciprocated and that is fine with me but lets not cloud that with the bs about "has anyone applied to go to QF" never ever was going to happen.

Agree with Led I would like to see the next FO employed by JQ being redundant QF pilots,should that occur.

[Night Hawk]

Well 8 new hires rolled through the doors at JQ HQ on Thursday, all going to DWN.

On the MOU. On the JQ side it is only available to staff hired prior to a certain date and all of those divers are Capts so no one will ever take up the offer.

If any QF guys came over they would be at the bottom of the list and be posted to either Darwin or sent to NZ. :eek:

With the 787 delay and the thought that some more A330's may come over to JQ, there is the possibility of having some spots there that may come up.

But this may not be for some time. :rolleyes:

[Mud Skipper]

Woodeye - how do you spell rhetoric because thats all you have.

These;

Well 8 new hires rolled through the doors at JQ HQ on Thursday, all going to DWN

actions speak louder than any words as we in Mainline look down the barrel at redundancies.

Unless AIPA pull a rabbit out of their industrial hat, I'll stand by my post.
It's not Skippy’s conspiratorial view that the grand plan is to grow Qantas Jetstar while Mainline languishes in the mud
It's not a conspiracy at all - it's a publically stated position of Qantas to grow Jetstar and focus Mainline on specific routes.

I don't know how it could be any more black and white.
AIPA of the time did NOTHING in any tangable way to prevent the distruction of Mainline careers and now we are paying the price with NO career opportunities for pilots like Hugh hence I suggest he get out :mad:

[WoodenEye]

Muddy, you’re unnecessarily frightening the horses mate.

Notwithstanding, would appreciate you providing a link to a reputable source clarifying that it is Qantas’ stated public position that:Qantas (will) grow Jetstar and focus Mainline on specific routes.Nothing I can recall says much more than; Qantas is a full service international carrier, Jetstar an LCC international carrier with the route structure of Jetstar to be determined by market demand for international LCC’s.

It’s Hugh’s decision of course, but IMHO jumping out of Mainline right now is a gutsy call and not one I would recommend my 28 yr old son make if he were a pilot.

Nevertheless, I’ll admit that should the GOAL not be kicked by the end of the 2010/11 FY, it will never be. In the meantime, don't expect much growth for either Qantas or Jetstar.

[DutchRoll]

After a few 'on-topic' posts this thread will no doubt drift into the dribble of most others as members shed the weight off their shoulders.
No doubt about it pylet. That's the most amazing nostradamus-like predictive psychic power I think I've ever seen! ;)

Hugh, just be very cautious of those telling you the grass is greener somewhere else. Green seems to be a subjective colour in aviation.

[pylet]

DutchRoll - sometimes I amaze myself with my predictive powers!:ok:

This post was always headed towards a therapy session for some members to vent their frustration over 'MOUs', put out their 'demise of mainline conspiracies' and try to inch ever higher on an already soaked wall!

Again, the questions surrounding redundancies should be addressed to AIPA via email or simply calling - you pay them after all! In the mean-time, there is LSL to be asigned, 6 months notice of the possibility of redunancies, MOU, lower divisers for all (I know what the EBA says with 160, but if it means no one would lose their job then why not?) and voluntary redunancies (stages 1,2 etc). The later packages could very much appeal to the older blokes (60 and above) as the package could equate to what they may have lost in super as opposed to working additional years simply to make it back again.

BTW, how many Virgin drivers were made redundant when they were 60 over stock? Lets not get too wound-up..............

[Dropt McGutz]

Jetbest, I'm still waiting for a knowledgable reply from you. I'd also be interested to know why you don't consider the offsets that were given for the EBA to be offsets?

[Led Zeppelin]

Pylet and others -

I'm sure you are right about your EBA, 6 months notice etc. etc., but I think the issue is also one of opportunity for those junior "at risk" QF mainline pilots.

Jetstar is definitely looking for F/O's right now, but who knows what the situation will be in 6 months. AIPA as a matter of priority should be facilitating a process to give these pilots some "permanence" with long term transfers into Jetstar.

Some may elect to run the gauntlet and wait, but I personally know several of this group who would grab this opportunity and run with it. :ok:

[breakfastburrito]

Led Zepp, can you now understand why mainline pilots, especially the junior ones are so aggrieved? They have been wanting this (the ability to go to j*) from day one, the opportunity to make a choice. But they have been blocked. The hostility is towards those that deliberately stymie career progression, management and a small minority of qf & j* pilots.

Many who simply wanted a window seat, now face the possibility of retrenchment, all the while the "Qantas Group" continues to employ pilots.
qf mainline has a mini version of the GOAL, - the intergration agreement, ensuring those on an aircraft at the time of integration where not disadvantaged by another, more senior pilot on another aircraft. On the whole it worked, not perfect. Every "A" pilot was given a command shot on the B737 before any more senior "Q" pilot.
My understanding is a GOAL would work in exactly the same way. It is no something to fear, quite the opposite, it provides opportunities for all sorts of career paths, with pilots trading off promotion for differing T&Cs - but by their own choice, not because of management prerogative.
But, I suspect that is what this is all about, management prerogative, & the ability to manipulate through favours & playing one group off against another. Is this the sort of workplace you want to be at?
This can be stopped, by realising your fellow pilots are not the enemy, most just want a reasonable prospect of career progression. If the world has changed, they just want to have the opportunity be a part of it, not left to rot because they have a Q seniority number.

[Led Zeppelin]

BB,

I was very much trying to keep my last comments directed at this very specific issue of junior pilots. It clearly makes sense in this case for transfers into JQ at the bottom of the list. No one should disagree with this.

The overall issue of AIPA, of how it has behaved, the self interest groups within, GOAL etc., are for another forum. So, you'll excuse me if I don't respond to your comments here.

[Nuthinondaclock]

There is NO future for junior pilots in Qantas unless you are happy never being a captain for your entire working life.

Big statement that one, Muddy. Do you want to give me odds? I'd happily take the bet. It would be a nice medium term tax free investment I think.

No wonder the Mods are all bald.

[captwawa]

Mud sure has a chip on his shoulder

If you are that assured that there is no future in mainline and you actually are in the system then why are you not going elsewhere?

It's a bloody big call to cay there is no future in mainline, very big indeed.

:ok:

[Bypass ratio]

I would like to personally thank Fi#zgerald, Di$mond & all those other idiots in Qantas recruitment from about 7 years ago for denying me the chance to enter the magical world of being a Qantas Pilot. You know, back then I was a little upset that my own national airline didn't think I was good enough to do the job, but you did do the best thing for my career. If only you knew what I was doing now and the prospects that I have at my age. Thank you very much Qantas.:ok:

[pylet]

Feel good to get that off your shoulders Bypass ratio?! You made the most of your situation and that's admirable - but the "best thing for your career" sounds like a big call and dependant on ones situation. Less money and a few more years to promotion, but living in Australia is worth it (my opinion)!

If your happy, that's great! And if youre done lifting the weight, lets get back to the subject!

I for one would find the JQ option appealing as opposed to LWOP or, of course, redunancies (little way off yet!).

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Yeah, I heard that goats are fantastic Bypass! :bored:

[ruprecht]

I would like to personally thank QF for giving me a job. Being a pretty average pilot I need a sheltered environment and I don't think that I could cut it overseas; they eat different food and speak funny. Flying outside Australia is difficult and all of us in QF would struggle with that. Anyone flying overseas could do any job in Australia and do it better. I don't want a captaincy, that's scary.

There, that feels better.:)

ruprecht

[Tassie Devil]

I thought Aipa had this all soughted, last thing we heard from them was Qantas is a seperate company and you can apply to join like everybody else. Whats changed ?????

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Ruprecht,

Is that why you guys need 4 pilots whenever you fly?; one is good with numbers, one is good with letters, one can read and the other sits huddled in the corner, rocking back and forth, saying 'we shouldn't be doing this, we shouldn't be doing this..."

[ruprecht]

Correct. Guess which one I am? :)

[hongkongfooey]

Ah its all single pilot over here lads, we fly through typhoons and snowstorms every day, sometimes even do the odd wheel change etc, best you boys stay there in the nice warm clear air ;)