3 man ULH Nov. 1

[4 driver]

Rumour from ISD has three man Europe's starting Nov. 1
Anyone heard anything???

[simplex]

ISD? ...meaning 3 cabin crew?

[Hellenic aviator]

Might be true indeed....I had spoken with our former GMA, Kim Jong Phil regarding some issues to do with FTLs etc and he had mentioned that once the Company was "happy" with the Y1 route, the next thing on the agenda was 3 man ULH to FRA.

As he told me, "It's legal".

I responded with, "Driving in fog on a freeway with a speed limit of say 100 km is also legal, but it's not smart nor safe"....he didn't respond back....maybe he doesn't drive in fog....dunno :hmm::confused:

[Fenwicksgirl]

They may want it but there has to be a drastic ammendment to CAD371 which prevents it. Just wishful thinking!! One day maybe but it's still a while away.

[Humber10]

But is CAD371 a rule, or is it just a "GUIDELINE" ? :}

[quadspeed]

CAD "rules" are just CAD policy, flexible enough to comply with necessary customer profit margins and quality control shortcomings. Since the 270/271 route is currently serviced by the -2- pilot certified Boeing 747-400 and operated on a computerized(!) flight plan, any possible objections to the legality and safety of such operations have already been shot down. In fact, it would be perfectly legal in the merry-land of Hong Kong to fly it with -2- pilots. And the HKCAD have gone on record stating so.

May the EU or the FAA soon blacklist HKCAD registered aircraft from entering civilized airspace....

[treboryelk]

for happy with Y1 insert lucky that we still havent had a major problem whilst on it!

[HEALY]

I was under the impression that the 3 man rule would be applied with a mixed crew (basing wise) so that people can stay on a fairly descent body clock....fat chance of that one.

[broadband circuit]

It might just be possible to do 3 man to/from FRA under the current FTLS & RPs.

However, the responsibility then falls on each & every one of us to not accept a 3 crew operation on the "odd day" that the flight time is a bit longer than rostered. DO NOT set the precedent. Crew Control saying it is ok because that's the way it's rostered is not acceptable.

FLTS Para 16.4 A:

When three pilots are boarded, the maximum allowable FDP for a single Sector will be thirteen hours, regardless of considerations of acclimatisation or time of start of the FDP.

Note that it says FDP, which commences at sign-on, not sector time or flight time.

And if they try to use the 15 hr rule for returning to HK. FTLS para 24.7 A:

The Company may request a Commander of an Ultra Long Range flight, that would normally require a minimum Flight Crew Complement of four pilots, to operate with a Flight Crew Complement of three pilots, provided that the maximum allowable FDP for a single sector, will be fifteen hours, regardless of considerations of acclimatisation or time of start.

point out to them that para 24 is entitled COMMANDER’S DISCRETION - EXTENSION OF FDP, and be a sensible commander, and refuse.

If there is any complaints, point out FTLS para 24.4:

The Commander’s decision in such matters will be final and unquestioned.

[Hellenic aviator]

Broadband, I couldn't agree with you more! Unfortunately, it's been my personal experience that not many Captains exhibit the understanding as you have clearly explained.

On occasion I have operated a flight where I am asked by the Captain "how do I feel about going into discretion" and whenever I have given the response, "Actually, I'd rather not do it because of A,B,C,etc", I am told, "Noted....I think we should do it to avoid any problems later". Consequently, at an outport, we lose allowances, have our rest reduced to min rest due to 'service disruption' and the Captain is now complaining "This is :mad: "

Only on one occasion has a Captain refused and I stood by him 100%, only to be called into the Chief Pilot's office upon return to base, and was asked "did you at anytime suggest to the Captain to consider Commander's Discretion?"
When I quoted FTLS para 24.4: "The Commander’s decision in such matters will be final and unquestioned" I was told that I "should consider towing the Company Line considering you are so close to Command".

I assume Vol 1. 4-2-4 Para. 10 does not apply to those on the 3rd Floor :hmm:

[Humber10]

I wonder what the response would be if you ran off the end of the runway due to fatigue, after the company had put pressure on you to use discretion... :ugh:

Safety first though, right??

[fly123456]

Strange, it's not like we are short of pilots nowadays... or is it? :cool:

But anyway, being based in FRA, if it can get my 84h/month go down to 60h/month, I might be ok with it!

[quadspeed]

But anyway, being based in FRA, if it can get my 84h/month go down to 60h/month, I might be ok with it!

As long as you don't mind spending an extra 24h at the Headland every trip. Going from 4 to 3man ULH will extend the layovers, further reducing time at home and seeing even less of the family.

You may fly less, but you'll be away more.