Pprune should go

[upgrade]

I've come to the sad conclusion that pprune has been let down by the majority of its contributors.It now only exists to demonstrate what a disparate bunch of malcontents we all are.I see no evidence whatsoever of a pilot community that we all imagined we were a part of.I just see dissension and endless bickering.And its being beamed out all over cyberspace which does our reputation as professionals absolutely no good at all.
God only knows what the travelling public must think of us...the juvenile remarks,the unabashed anti-American sentiment(check out the latest on the Chinese spy plane posting),the "I'm alright Jack" brigade..
its ugly and getting uglier by the day.
The pilot community is alive and well this side of the Atlantic.It seems to be in a sorry state of affairs on your shores.The sort of behavior described in the recent BA 747DEP posting,if its true,would just NOT happen over here.I can't imagine being part of an airline where junior and senior pilots eye each other suspiciously or flight deck and flight attendants are at war with each other.What an unpleasant mess if its true...
PPrune should be a place for serious(and sometimes not so serious)debate but its become a place to hang out the dirty linen...for everyone to see.

[noax2grind]

Upgrade, sadly there is some truth in what you say! The behaviour on line of some our
so-called professional collegues is, at best, disappointing. However, I disagree with your suggestion that that it should be shut down.
It is up to those of us who disagree with this sort of behaviour to stop it.
Remember it takes two to tango! It is all too easy to rise to the bait when someone makes a fatuous but hurtful remark. Replying, albeit justifiably, only serves to perpetuate the argument and encourage the originator to carry on.
I have benefited from some very useful info provided by well informed and generous contributors. It would be a great loss if we were to prevent that from continuing. Yes, there is also room for a bit of fun too!
We should remember that all rumours are bullsh** until they are proven.... at which point they cease to be rumours!!

Encourage the good and ignore the bad!

[What_does_this_button_do?]

- don't like what you see?, shop somewhere else.

This is a superb site, liked by many, rivalled by a few, imitated by lots.

[ClearDirect]

Quite right, noax, there are many sensible quiet contributors who discuss matters in a civilised, informative,and polite way, but there is an uncouth and very vocal minority who substitute loudness and insult for logic and debate.
Sadly, in a free society all have an equal right to voice our opinion no matter how outrageous. The price of democracy.
We should however, refuse to rise to the bait, and not reply in kind to the more tasteless contributions.

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lost in hold.

[Bus429]

Site's good but some professionals post codswallop. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

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Bus429 - the pilot's pal!

[This message has been edited by Bus429 (edited 04 April 2001).]

[Desk Driver]

Upgrade

If you want a completely uncensored forum.(Decency & Lible aside) Which I think we do, then you have to put up with a few pillocks and malcontents. Bad news will always be at the forfront of any discussion as that's Human nature. If you don't like what someones says then frankly, good! thats a good basis to continue a discussion. I think the moderators do their best to close any pointles threads or those that sink into juvenile mud slinging, that should be enough.



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You fly em we'll fill em!

[compressor stall]

ANd you guys dont even read dunnunda :rolleyes:

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Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
William Blake

[flugpants]

The choice is yours........you know where to logout.....feel free to do so.....the rest of us can continue to exchange opinions, mostly in an adult and high spirited nature!
TTFN

[Anti Skid On]

I had to read the whole of the Chinese/US spy plane thread prior to comment.

What American bashing - all nationalities (at times) get an earful on Pprune.

It is an information service, not a gospel, not a guide to life; I disagree with much that I see in papers, the internet and TV, I listen to things and do wonder about the reasons for certain political decsions (e.g. Bush not signing th Kyoto agreement, the privatisation of ATC over here).

Yes, some folks do like to slag one another off - with the usual my Boeing is better than your Scarebus thread - so what, isn't that what makes life interesting. The world would be dull if we were all the same.

LONG LIVE PPRUNE (and down with the dissenters)

[Rabbit]

re the spy plane thing - if you spy on someone and get cought then you must be prepared to cop the consequences. Unfortunately our yank friends have a superiority complex and can't accept that they might be stepping on someone elses toes. And it is not only in the asian area - go to the ME and just look at the way they carry on there. Its embarassing to watch.

Regarding Pprune, well I aggree and disaggree. In its presant form it is becoming unacceptable to our profession and its not because of pilots but because of the non pilots and management making stupid uninformed or devisive comment. I strongly believe it is time to weed out the non pilots. The membership might be cut by half but at least pilots will be talking to pilots and that is the most important thing.

Have a nice day

[Roadtrip]

Don't get too concerned about it. It very easy on chat boards like PPRUNE to overstate and be less than polite. I think you would find everybody, if talking face to face would be pints for each other. The bravado and emphasis inherent in the writing here is the equivelent of raising the voice a little, a slight interruption, etc. that would be common in normal spirited debate. If you think PPRUNE is uncivil, you ought to see two New Yorkers who are FRIENDS, have a discussion!

Hell, I might even buy the Guv a pint -- but I wouldn't ask him for a job!


[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 04 April 2001).]

[AJ]

Rabbit,

Sadly, most of the rubbish I read on these pages is written by pilots.

I don't agree pprune should go though. It's invaluable for those aspiring to join the community.

Best regards
AJ

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Good Morning Buenos Aires

[stopbar]

Open to all or not at all, otherwise we have the beginnings of censorship which is not good.

[Choomi Noboff]

I agree that it would be a shame to see PPRune go as it can be a useful and fun forum from students all the way up to management. I also think that due to the nature of the internet then another, and perhaps even worse, site would soon follow if it were shut down. Better, I think, to keep it where we know we have some control over it.

What I would say though is this:

I have a good friend who's life has been badly affected by this forum. He was severely slagged off by his workmates openly on this forum. All comments were unfounded and very unwarranted. Comments made ranged from personal insults to professional slander - they were basically nasty. They were all anonymous and thus clearly cowardly in nature. I suspect comments were born from jealousy or simple personal dislike.
This happened quite sometime ago.
This came at time when he was suffering considerable personal difficulty at home and in his personal life.
He took it very personally and became doubting and paranoid of his own abilities. He felt that people would think (as people do) 'no smoke without fire'.It put an even greater strain on his home life and his very own partner started to doubt him after reading the comments. A promotion was cancelled at around the same time and he felt he began to lose favour with his management, he believes, because of the comments. Attitudes seemed to change toward him at work - or certainly he felt that. He was even called into see his managers to answer to the allegations made - which he did and disproved everyone of them! He was placed under a tremendous amount of strain as a result of someones cheap, poorly thought out and ill researched comments.
He eventually left the company that he was working for as it simply became too stressful for him. That was a great shame as he had a promising future ahead. It was a great shame as he is actually a guy of great integrity, very capable and would help anyone get on.
A couple of years later he has recovered his life well and is today a training captain on a large jet. He still, though, suffers from lack of confidence as a result. His relationship is only just starting to recover fully. Occasionally he still gets comments from people that knew of the slander. He is also paranoid that people will remember the slander and assosciate it with him, and affect his career again. He still resents this forum very very much.

He considered suing but was unable, at the time, to track down individuals responsible. An option would have been to sue PPRune for allowing this to happen. He spoke to Danny first, however, and decided not to proceed with legal action as he would probably close the site down. He beleived that would result in the forum setting up somewhere else and it would likely be even less regulated. Danny also promised to moderate these matters better. Danny is also a nice guy who is willing to help in these matters. So my friend didn't proceed - although, at times,he says he wishes he had.

So what I am saying is THINK!!!!! Before you post. What you post here, sitting in the comfortable anonymity of your home; what you think is a bit of fun or a pop at someone can have very real and lasting affects. To try to change peoples perception of an individual or situation using this forum is very very cowardly and childish. Some people will take what is said here very seriously.

THINK before you post or one day it may be you they are talking about!

[G SXTY]

Interesting comments. For what its worth, my two penneth:

1) Pprune, like any group or cross section of society, will attract its share of idiots / nutters / people you wouldn't want to sit next to on the bus. You can either ignore them and wait for them to get bored and go somewhere else or, if they are persistently offensive, kick them out.

I think the moderators do a great job in knowing where to draw the line, and some of the loonies are worth having here for a laugh (try searching ronchonner's posts).

2) The site does a fantastic job in educating, supporting and encouraging wannabees like me, and I'm sure that without this resource I'd still be happily driving fs2000, rather than jumping into a real C152 and trying not to bust the London TMA.

In short, this site is a huge benefit to a huge number of people, and out of 30,000 odd members, you'd be doing well to find more than a dozen or so that you really couldn't live with.

There, sermon over & back to sleep.



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Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit pruning.

[Rusty A300]

UPGRADE - Sadly mate; I'm with you on this one! Very, very sadly!

I've been flying for 20 years and am employed by a DHL supplier as an A300 Captain. Previously flew Rusty B747's. Nonetheless, I'm as disillusioned with this profession as you appearto be.

I'm not writing this to illicit a response. Merely to satisfy my own dissattisfaction!

[lame]

Rabbit,

I have been in the Airline Industry all my working life (some 38 years), and I have been visiting PPRuNe for many many years, posting for several years (even longer than the profile indicates), but I am NOT a pilot.

There was a post a few years ago when I only used to read PPRuNe, not post, that I had information on and someone was after, so I contacted Danny to ask him if he would please post this info for me. He replied that I was most welcome to register and then reply to the post myself. When I queried that this was not possible as I was not a pilot, he said that this was no problem as long as I had an interest in Aviation and always posted within the "established guidelines". This I have always done.

I agree that there are some postings from time to time that I think are not worthy of being on PPRuNe, and if the majority of pilots, and Danny, wish it to be pilots only, I have no problem with that, but I assure you that banning all non pilots will NOT fix the problem. I can guarantee that it will not stop all the "stupid, uninformed or devisive comments" to use your words.

Best regards,

"lame"

(edited for grammar only, not content)


[This message has been edited by lame (edited 05 April 2001).]

[Secret Squirrel]

Do stop telling us all how we should behave. Christ Almighty, don't you people ever give it a rest. How many times have we all heard that 'as a body of professionals we should behave like this and we should not say that, blah bloody blah!'

We're not allowed to disagree with our American cousins; Keep it British; if you disagree, politely decline to say anything; we have to portray an image of self control. What a load of balls! Don't we all do enough on the flight deck sticking to rules?; hoodwinking passengers when we're late, or when the weather is likely to shake their teeth out on the galley floor?

I feel for your friend Choomi and I don't agree with that sort of persecution if it is specifically targetted, but that is, surely, an extreme case. However, I find it very rich for a Yank to tell us how we should behave here and that the type of rivalry that goes on here doesn't go on in America.

The big difference between Americans and the rest of the world is that we have a sense of humour and can take all this in our stride (with the odd unfortunate exception - no disrespect aimed at your friend Choomi). The Australians have even more of a sense of humour than we do but the Yanks just can't take it. Neither can they take it that we don't always agree with their antics and they hate to be criticised. Well, I have news for you America: Pilots are people with their own opinions and personalities; their professionalism is reflected in their work and their personalities in their free time; come to terms with it or log out!

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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

[upwiththebirds]

Choomi you have GOT to be taking the p**s. This sounds more like an "Our Tune"! Long live Pprune and ALL its colourful contributors. Why do some people take themselves so seriously? It's fun!!! Don't you get it? Stop being so pompous! If you don't like it, then log off instead of seeking to change what IMHO is a near perfect format.

[Nigel PAX]

No one’s perfect, but PPRuNe comes close. By being open to more than just professional pilots, and being very intelligently moderated, it’s become a very influential forum — not many industries are as well served. Lots of people other than pilots have an interest in professional aviation, and PPRuNe meets their need rather well. Yes, some contributors lower the standard, but I know of few anonymous forums on the Internet that are as sensible, informative, intelligent, informed and balanced as this.

[Notso Fantastic]

Bus429,
Once again pprune is subject to your childish, obscure and unwelcome contributions. This is a Professional Pilots Network. Your excessive and outrageous anti-pilot opinions are not wanted. What with you and Guvnor, you are the reason people want to restrict access to flyers only. With a little worldliness, you might know that 'codswallop' means nothing to non Brits. You don't have to express an opinion on everything where you can get an anti-pilot angle in. Give it a rest!

[stevemd11]

I have the perfect test for any real airline pilot:

1. When is the last time you bought a newspaper?
2. Show me hotel pen?
3. How big is your watch?

Used on jump seat riders: does get some funny looks ;-*/
Actually stolen from a Southwest pilot. ;-*))

[Bus429]

Notsofantastic - see, I've done it again!
It is so easy to wind up up some of the professionals who should know better.
This is a silly post, anyway. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

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Bus429 - the pilot's pal!

[Ignition Override]

Secret Squirrel and other foreigners (non-US), say what needs to be said about our paradoxical country-I'll be one of the first to admit that the US has tons of very serious problems. Luckily, no other powerful nation has such major problems and contradictions.

Maybe by providing examples and detached information without sweeping generalizations, this can allow some fellow countrymen to take things less personally, and fewer negative reactions might occur?

On foreign travel, heck, when mijn vrouw (wife)/mon femme/meine liebe (dear) Frau and I fly KLM on vacation to Europe each year (probably to London this summer), we are maybe in a minority of US travelers partly due to an awareness of the sometimes indifferent and/or intentionally ignorant Americans who don't even attempt to say "good day", "thank you" in the local language upon entering a shop or "mag ik betalen?/l' addition s.v.p." when trying to pay for dinner etc.

But luckily, all the people out in PpruneLand from other countries are well-versed in such necessary phrases and local customs. Only Americans tend to be in the dark.

On the other hand, people from other countries also return drunk [on Corsendonk] to a Haarlem, Netherlands hotel at 3 AM and wake people up for a bit. And those can be English (as they were that night) or any other accents.

If people in any country in the "west" have a monopoly on good manners, whether besoffen or sober, I'd be interested to know which.

But shouldn't Pprune be an aviation forum, detached from personal politics? I still do not understood how we as individual airline employees (staff) are solely responsible for determining foreign relations within our respective governments. Maybe someone will explain how any of us can change our governments' foreign policies.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 05 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 05 April 2001).]

[The Guvnor]

Having come under more than my fair share of unwarranted and vicious flak - most of it from anonymous posters with multiple identities - I'd be the first to agree that somewhat tighter control does need to be taken by the moderators when postings get to the libellous level.

Should PPRuNe be shut down, though? No way! This is an informative, very often amusing and frequently highly relevant forum.

Through PPRuNe, I have encountered some of the most interesting and helpful people I know. I've had many great days and evenings with them; and a number have worked very closely with me on various projects.

Danny and his team, on balance, do a first class job considering that they all have 'day jobs' and are unpaid for their huge efforts.

As for the often blatant nationalism - I think we're all guilty of that at various times ... certainly I have been very voiciferous in my opposition to non EU airlines (and crews) operating within the EU and taking EU pilots' jobs. Is there anything wrong with that?

Long live PPRuNe!

[Mole Muncher]

Why doesn't danny insist upon individual identification at sign up?
He can it make so that only he has access to this information thus keeping the site anonymous. He can then assure us all of our privacy but with the caveat that if he is approached by a legal body and is threatened with legal action then identities could be released.
I think this would surely protect him from being sued. Peoples posts would remain fun and controversial but the serious slander, personal barbecues and libelous statements would stop.

[calltheball]

After years of reading Pprune without ever commenting -I feel now is the time. The usefulness of a site like this cannot be overstated. It has served me well, keeping me in touch with a wide range of opinions (some I agree with, others not) from a variety of pepole within the aviation world. Personally, I feel the site is as relevant to me now I'm employed in the industry as it ever was when I was training or desperately seeking my first job. At times the discussions become heated and an injection of humour doesn't hurt, but so long as the basic guidelines are followed (no libel, slander etc) the site can only be a positive platform for free speech. Yes, there will always be a minority who try to ruin it for others and yes there will always those who can't accept the views (again slander/libel aside) expressed here. However these people have a free choice. It is a simple one best expressed by clicking on the little cross in the top right hand corner of the screen...
This is a very wide ranging profession, employing people from a wide range of backgrounds and cultures, it should not be suprising therefore that such different views are expressed, and moreso they should be encouraged as MOST have something decent to contribute -with the moderators ensuring the small minority don't ruin the site.

Soapbox back under dustsheet.......

[LittleBubba]

Hey Guv, that's a good one, "most of it from anonymous posters with multiple identities".
LOL

Remember this other one,

"Username: Lawyergal
Posted 12-05-00 16:36 and read 1398 times.
I'm not involved in the Caledonian Wings project, but I am a keen aviator and also a commercial solicitor (lawyer) with a past involvement in libel"

By the way, how is your airline coming along (the one you are not involved in)....

[Moonbeam Purple]

Qoute:

Danny and his team, on balance, do a first class job considering that they all have 'day jobs' and are unpaid for their huge efforts.

End qoute.

Of course they are doing a great job running this site. Nobody comes even close.

Unpaid for? Well I wouldn't feel so sorry for the guys - if it's true what Danny says, that PPRUNE has more than 10 million hits every month, and nearly 30000 members online, then the minimum monthly income from small banner-advertisements should average more than 10.000£. :rolleyes:

MP

[Raw Data]

Unsurprising, I suppose, that LittleBubba should so effectively prove the point. Just couldn't resist taking a pop an the Guvnor, could you? Even in the midst of a discussion about abusing others on PPRuNe. Just as well the Guv has rhinocheros skin! Interesting, too, that this topic degenerated into name calling within only a few posts.

Anyway, the point is that the issues raised are PEOPLE issues. Nothing to do with pilots or non-pilots. A simple dynamic that operates in any large group of people, exacerbated by the anonymity of it all.

I dislike the anonymity, mainly because it allows cowards and other morally bankrupt people to take shots at others with impunity. Sometimes they do it to make a point, but more often they simply want to inflict hurt on someone from the anonymity of their PC. Another sad, but predictable human trait that goes with the safety of anonymity. Some of us aren't anonymous, which raises other problems!

Of course, PPRuNe would simply not work WITHOUT anonymity. And we are the worse for it.

I quite believe Choomi Noboff, mainly because I have seen similar effects on a colleague of mine. The worst confidence-killer is thinking your peers despise you.

Regarding content, the bottom line is that it is Dannys toy and he can moderate as he sees fit. I reckon he gets it right 99% of the time, as I am sure most folk do because they all keep coming back! The only bit of content I don't like is the rapidly-proliferating advertising which slows the experience down somewhat.

Some of us like reasoned debate. To many, it is a pastime in itself- I really enjoyed the religious debate we had a while back because it brought so many thinking people out of the woodwork, and resulted in an absorbing and intelligent (for the most part) debate. And it wasn't even about flying!

Anyway, if you are waiting for the idiots to leave, you'll be waiting a long time. They'll hang around until the forum is nearly dead, and, like rats leaving a sinking ship, they will then desert. Human nature again.

Regarding our professional image, that is long gone in most peoples eyes these days anyway. Anyone who is internet-aware will know that these sorts of heated discussions take place on all forums, across the board of professions and interests. The motorcycle forums I belong to are far worse when it comes to abuse. No, if you are going to embrace the internet, you have to accept anarchy as a de-facto standard.

Where does that leave us? PPRuNe will continue, I should think, for a long time. Accept it for what it is, accept its' limitations, and the limitations of the contributors here. It is still very much a minority of the flying profession represented here. Maybe- just maybe- some of the more intelligent lurkers will jump a little harder on the idiots out there. Self-regulation is the only effective solution.

All good fun...!!!

[This message has been edited by Raw Data (edited 05 April 2001).]

[Captain Anchovy]

Rabbit

You seem to be forgetting that the majority of people who work in aviation are not pilots.If it wasn`t for those of us who work in Ops,Crewing,Engineering etc etc,you would get nowhere-very fast!!Therefore a forum like pprune should be made available to those of us who don`t fly-and as for your idea about making this site for pilots only,this could end up being the most boring website imaginable!

CA

[400Skipper]

Upgrade:

You don't spend much time in the cockpit, do you?

[kissah55]

i cant help but agree with you, but this is the real world buddy, and like all professions there will be the odd few who bring us down.

[Trislander]

UPGRADE
If you don't think this website is any good (your opinion of which is very wrong) then why bother coming here? Go and see Ron Chonner if you don't like PPRuNe. I think that PPRuNe is the best aviation website I have been to and it has helped me a lot. At least BA have some class compared to some of your biggest airlines.
And ok, so sometimes someone posts a silly thread, but you don't have to read it if you think its dumb.

You are the weakest link, Goodbye !!!!!!!

[dallas dude]

Crikey....we've got the weakest link coming over here in 10 days (and to think I used to have rude thoughts about Ann Robinson).

All.....whether you agree or disagree with any postings on our beloved Pprune, think of what a part of our daily/weekly lives it has become. Think of all the chores our partners would have for us if we weren't so busy here!

Keep it like it is. Grateful thanks to Danny and his team of helpers.

Personally, I enjoy the mental sparring with certain folks. I sometimes wish I could buy members a pint/litre and chat face to face in a similar tone, even if we are polar opposites. Just to find out what makes 'em tick (or see what planet they're from).

I believe (most of the time) that responses should be addressed in a "pub type"
manner (but not if the pub's on the Fulham Rd and Chelsea have just lost). Feel free to remind me if I forget this next time I reply to you.

Cheers,dd.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Moonbeam,

Income for the site is less than a tenth of what you surmise and every penny goes to pay for the server and software. No administrator or moderator gets a cent - not even phone bills covered.

Each time we upgrade the server due to traffic we're already speccing, costing and working on the next. European figures show overall internet traffic doubling every hundred days at the moment and Chinese is just about to become the majority language in terms of throughput.

We watch all this very warily as the next logical step in hardware and bandwidth puts us into the 5,000 USD per month league for costs. Crashdive is busy doing some extremely lateral thinking and coding to see if we can put this off for as long as possible by creating an entirely different concept in bulletin board software.

Alternatively we can charge for the site - we reckon that in a couple of months we could run the place on the old 386 I've got in the garage.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]

[Moonbeam Purple]

Towers, Come on - 30000 members and 10 million hits a month, income less that a 1000 quit a month - you gotta be kidding us! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

However if you're right(of course you are!), I would start charging a lot more for those banners, or even better, I would contact a professional marketing company right away, and let them run this banner business.

The banners are not gonna disappear in the future, unless the members will have to pay for using this page, you gave the answer yourself to this idea - not good!

So why not get the most out these banners right away. With professional help you wouldn't have to think about how to finance the state of art server solution, and further more, if you continue to do this work without any pay as you say you do, you would have plenty of money to sponsor a great deal of PPRUNE Bashes, a great deal of wannabees, on top of the costs for the server. So what are you waiting for?

Best Rgrds

Moonbeam

[dallas dude]

Moonbeam,

How about getting your checkbook out and sending Danny a donation?

Money talks,BS walks.

dd

[Moonbeam Purple]

Well dd, maybe that's how you do business in the States, I don't care!

I just gave my 2p worth. If Danny and his friends wanna let go of several thousand punds every single month, you and I can't help it!

PPRUNE has become a golden egg, because of the huge work and the considerable amount of money, that Danny and his Gang puts into it - but why not take advantage of it, when it is possible!

If Danny & Co. doesn't wanna make a living out of it, fine - that's really up to them to decide, cus it's their work, their money and their idea! But if they have decided to keep it as a hobby, at least the operating costs, plus the other things mentioned above, could then easily be sponsered by banners, and none would have to pay or donate anything out of their own pocket for visiting this wonderfull place!

Keep up the good work!

Over and out

MP

[twistedenginestarter]

You want to criticize PPRUNE???

I'll see you outside in the car park.

However be warned I've got 28,773 friends.

:) :) :) :)

[Capt PPRuNe]

Moonbeam, greetings from Vegas! Not that I am about to gamble the future of PPRuNe down at the Bellagio but you seem to have failed to realise that the costs of administering the adverts is huge. There is a healthy income but I only see 35% of that after all the costs are taken into account and every penny of that goes back into running PPRuNe.

I have yet to find the idel partner that will run everything and pay for a really powerful server. The latest version is costing $750 a month and will probably become obsolete within 6 months. Don't forget the set-up fees every time an upgrade takes place. Add to all that the licence fees for the software and the other 101 incidentals and you would soon find that this is definitely a 'non-profit' organisation.

I am not complaining though. So far I have managed to make ends meet but if anyone is really interested then I would need around GBP100,000 as an initial investment to get PPRuNe ready for the next really big upgrade and then we can discuss revenue potential from advertising and merchandising.

Here is a little project for you... find out how much it would cost to upgrade our server to a really powerful quad processor machine with 1Gb RAM and a couple of fast SCSI drives in a RAID, ooohhh.... lets say 18Gb each and don't forget a quote for 200Gb bandwidth useage a month and then report back here with your best quote. Add to that the cost of employing someone only part time to administer your advertising sales and collection of payments and say... someone to design pages and code them in html and someone to write scripts at some ridiculous rate per hour and add to that the costs of support in other areas and on and on and on...

I await a respectable quote. ;)

Seriously, I apreciate everything that is being discussed in this thread and I think I have a feel by now of what most people expect from PPRuNe but I still need feedback. Yes some of the content is pathetic from time to time but overall I think the balance is in favour of the 'mature majorities' favour. If I didn't get any enjoyment from what I read here then I think it would be time to hand the reins to soeone else who believes they can do a better job.

OK, that's enough from me. Must not waste time while the lights of 'The Strip' beckon.

------------------
Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

[dallas dude]

Moonbeam,

Glad to see you're happy to mooch off other people.

Ever thought of going into airline management?

BS walks. Got your walking shoes on?

dd

[gaunty]

Upgrade, moonbeam and others.

If you need a SINGLE reason why PPRuNe should NOT go, you need go no further than the last post from the Capt.

NOT because of his entirely reasonable response in regard to the cost of its operation, but because you are indeed allowed the privilege of airing your views without retribution or banishment for life to the desolate wastes of cyber space.
As are those who wish to make complete dills of themselves.
I suspect it is the beauty of PPRuNes reasonable tolerance that has ensured its success and that you do not have to join the many wacko fora out there for your kicks.

For mine, I don't care if, and indeed hope Danny makes a motza out of it.
It wouldn't stop my enjoyment of it one bit, and if anything, make me feel a little less guilty about having something so good for free. It's a methodist thing. :)



[This message has been edited by gaunty (edited 07 April 2001).]

[Moonbeam Purple]

dd - do everyone a favor, stop brownnosing yourself! :)
-----------

Danny, a couple of quick examples:

Dual PII processor, 512Mb Ram, 32Gb SCSI Drive, 150Gb Bandwith/Mth = 1800US$/Mth roughly 1250£/Mth

Should do the work easely.

Or the overkill:

Dual 1Gb PIII/256cache processors, 1Gb SDRAM DIMM, 2x36Gb SCSI Hardrives, RAID Controller PERC 3/QC 128Mb Price 6.700£, and then you need a quick connection! Don't know the excact price for the connection! It really boiles down to backbone cababillity and bandwith as you say.

The market is flooded with different server solutions and it should be quite easy to get a very good price if you challenge a couple of providers at the same time!
---------

With regards to the banners, it's a fact, at least where I live, that you get approx. 1£ per 600 banner exposures. Now let's say that you have 1 exposure for every hit, that is 10.000.000 exposures pr. month. That is something like 16.600£ pr. month http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

You don't have to think about employing anyone. The marketing companies I know are getting a small percentage of the income, for taking care of all the hard work selling the banners. With regards to programmers, why make everything so fancy. I recon that most of the guys, like the way everything is running at the moment! Correct me if I'm wrong!

And now onto something more interesting! For example flying!

MP

[Blacksheep]

This is neither Rumours nor News. Time for The Towers to stick it in Jet Blast where it belongs. Its true that a lot of nonesense is posted on this BB but Tech Log alone justifies the site's existence. Lets just stop bitching and get back to aviation.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[AirWolf]

GIGO! Folks. Life is not sweet. This site is a great place to exchange information. I work for a major, (Finaly!!!!!) but there are many items that are only addressed on this fine forum. We need a place to let of steam. If you can not take the heat, find another life.
Die AerWolf

[AirWolf]

GIGO


Sorry Folks!
Garbage in - Garbage out!

[Choomi Noboff]

So come on then Danny why don't you insist upon personal details when people sign up for a user name?

Surely that would reduce the need for greater bandwidth, advertising etc. It wouldn't decimate the site, just get rid of the idiots and libelers.

I for one would gladly give my details so long as I could be assured of anonymity, except for the case when you are forced to give them by a legal body if I had libeled someone.

[Steepclimb]

Despite this being my first post as this username. I have been contributing to PPRuNe for a few years. I somehow lost my previous identity.

In all that time there are frequent calls to restrict or censor PPRuNe by otherwise reasonable people, in fact most likely they are reasonable people. Often from Americans who can't understand the humour of and sarcasm of people on this side of the Atlantic and who's patriotic sensibilities are often offended by, to be honest sometimes over the top attacks by certain people against American policies and actions.
Interestingly when Clinton was in, Americans were attacking him, now that Bush is in Europeans are getting stuck in, justifiably in my opinion. Attacking Bush is not attacking America by the way. That man is an embarrassment.

What I say to these people is that censorship would be counterproductive and would even drive away many of the people the site wants to keep. I for one would object if it was restricted to pilots only or some other elitist group. I would qualify by the way so it's not sour grapes.
There is also the myth that if only pilots were allowed the whole site would become one sensible and professional discussion forum. That is simply not true, there is a common self perception among pilots, I was prey to it myself for a time, that we are somehow better that ordinary hoi polloi. There may be an element of truth in it. We are a self selecting group who tend to come from a particular social group and hold similar viewpoints and attitudes. But it is a mistake to believe we are better than others. We are as vulnerable to all the seven deadly sins as anyone and are often outspoken in a less than pleasant way.
so let's lose the naivety, restricting it to strictly vetted pilots would be counterproductive.

As this is a British based site it will tend to reflect the attitudes inherent in the Britain. I tend to find similar American sites a little too serious and I find excessive and uncritical patriotism grating.

But for people who don't like what they see here, don't go away. Get stuck in, defend your position and your country. That's the whole point, most of us live in free country, we are used to voicing our opinions.
Censorship and restriction has no place here, if you don't like it there's a very big country where they practice it in style. You can go there. I believe there are some Americans there right now discovering it at first hand.

[direct chase]

I have also browsed pprune for many years, and found, in spite of some of the juveniles who contribute, a raft of excellent threads.

Danny ( and others) keep up the good work

[LatviaCalling]

Let's start it off this way. After reading this thread all the way through, I wanted to reaffirm that PPRuNe is a very good forum for people interested in aviation, whether they be pilots, managers, or have any connection with the industry. As long as they are serious in what they are posting.

I was also going to say that at times there are some left field comments that puzzle me. The postings are clicking one after another and suddely something like this appears: "F*ck you all." Has this person just returned from the tavern with a few too many pints? It does not make any sense to me, and why is this person even posting on this forum? And why is he/she allowed to continue to post?

On a not so agressive side, just a few posts ago on this same thread a person said of Bush: "That man is an embarrassment." That's his opinion and that's fine, but if you want to share it with everyone else, please back it up in that case. I don't think that posts should be made emotionally, unless you qualify them as your pure emotions, and nothing else.

Don't accuse anyone of being an "embarrassment", whether it is Bush, Blair, Arafat, Sharon, or Putin, unless you can back it up. There are many of us that say that the world sucks. But when printing that, you should also include the word "why?"

But getting back to the idea whether PPRuNe should go or stay, I have taken a peek at other, so called, competing aviation sites and they have left me completely cold.

I see that there are many new members on PPRuNe who are actively posting their opinions and thoughts. There is nothing wrong with that, only encouragement, but the only suggestion that I have for them is to "cool it" in their first few posts. Test the field before you come out and condemn the whole society on Post No. 1.

I read this forum for a year, then consulted Danny, before I joined and started posting. I think my first post was a well thought out joke on JetBlast.

[Royan]

This site will survive no matter what; it is good and improving all the time. Take the bright side of life everybody. Thanks to all the good people behind it .

[Rollingthunder]

It seems we go through this cathartic exercise every quarter. PPRuNe is good. Snaps a salute to the creators and those good posters,individuals,types.

Whatareyouusingforbrains can go stuff himself, even further.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Moonbeam, PII is just not powerful enough as a processor, need PIII's and current ones are only 450MHz ones which are already straining with two of them only a few days after going live! We have 512Mb RAM and that is also limiting at the moment. Two 9Gb SCSI in a RAID 1 and that is all I can afford at the moment. Your quote is excessive for the kit you are talking about but don't forget that it has to be hosted somewhere with an access to the internet backbone and remember, the bandwidth useage is the real killer.

As you mention in your reply... "Don't know the excact price for the connection! It really boiles down to backbone cababillity and bandwith as you say." That is where the real costs are. Anyone can build the hardware for a reasonable proce but what you are paying for is somewhere to house it with the backbone connection and the subsequent bandwidth costs. Believe me, I have approached many different providers and I am with one of the cheapest that can provide the back up.

As for the banners, I will happily give you 30% commission for every banner you can sell for GBP1 per 600 banner exposures. Hell, let's make it really easy, GBP1 per 800 exposures. Don't forget though that you have to actually 'sell' this advertising space, get the advertiser to give you the banner at the correct dimensions and file size and type, collect the money owed and cover all the associated expenses for your time and effort. Also, you need to ensure that there is a regular supply of these advertisers.

As an ex-salesman mayself I know how 'easy' it is to sell... NOT. Someones interest is one thing, converting it into actual hard cash is something totally different. As for the 10 million pageviews a month, not all of those pages carry a banner advert as they are not required for the admin functions pages for example. At the moment only just over 6 million pages a month carry actual banners on them. Other banners are only paid on a 'click through' basis and I can tell you that they only earn a fraction of what is required to pay for this website.

Please feel free to provide me with the contacts for the companies that you mention when you say... "The marketing companies I know are getting a small percentage of the income, for taking care of all the hard work selling the banners." I would be more than happy to discuss ways of improving the income without making myself liable to the lawyers that would almost certainly follow through with their threats if they thought that there was any financial gain for them because of this sites success.

Unfortuanely it is all a bit 'Catch 22'ish' and unless there is a large investment to provide a stable infrastructure I doubt that things will change too much except that we will continue to raise funds throught the current method of selling banner advert space. Don't forget also, that most pilots make terrible businessmen and I include myself in that category.

As for the other comments about making the site solely accessible to pilots... you are joking surely? You know the old one about "What do pilots use as a contraceptive?"... Their personalities!!! Can you imagine only qualified pilots, airline ones at that, being the sole users of these forums? Yawwwwn! Seriously though, I learnt very early on that this website would never succeed if it became too elitist. I also remeber the days when I was trying to gather information what was involved in the lob and the industry as a whole. It was not very easy getting information of any substance and besides... I can also learn a lot from other people who are not pilots but involved in the 'job'. In any airline the pilots are only a minority of all the jobs and ancilliary professions that it takes to make an airline.

What I try to do is keep it overall aimed at the 'professional' side of aviation. You will often notice that when someone who appears to be a 'spotter' asks a question then the question is moved to the 'Questions' forum where those of us who care to provide the answers can deal with it instead of clogging up the 'Rumours & News' forum for example. Another case is where private pilots start to post messages that are obviously not appropriate for this forum about light aircraft going missing or whatever. There are enough websites out there that deal with recreational flying. Overall there are enough forums to cope with just about any aspect of professional aviation and it is the input from all the different sources that keep this bulletin board as busy as it is.

Yes, there is an element who don't seem to be able to comprehend that their inane one liners or abuse is not welcome but overall if you ignore them and don't fall into the trap of responding then the moderators and my jobs are made that much easier.

Thanks for all the kind comments and suggestions and the criticisms too. Without them I am sure I would get very bored with it. Why else would I spend so much time on this when on a layover in Vegas? The fact that it has been very cold and rainy is only part of the excuse!

------------------
Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

[time-ex]

I usually post in the engineers forum, but from my point of view, Pprune has been of great value to me. Reading your concerns give me an idea of what you guys are thinking. All the other forums don't hold a candle to this one. The fact that it accomodates us guys is a nice touch and would be sorely missed.

[valhalla]

Unfortunately, at one time or another even eagles must associate with worms, Pprune is a great place for some to let off steam in an anonymous forum, others to unwind and laugh. :rolleyes:
Shutting down Pprune is simply a quick and temporary fix. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

------------------
Keep Safe

[In the slot]

Pprune has really snowballed over the years and the info. disseminated is well worth looking for amongst some of the bull**** around. How else would we know what everyone else is thinking?? Keep it up guys!

[ickle black box]

PPrune is great!! :) It gives us Wannabe's idea's, inspiration and answers. I have used PPRuNe as a tool to gain information. Some people talk nonsense, the vast majority do not.

In life, work, pubs etc, you inevitably come across someone who talks bollocks, and then you ignore them, and soon, so does everyone else. It's just the same here.

You wouldn't expect a financial magazine to stop being printed, because one of their writer's share predictions didn't work.

Non involved people are going to get a far worse impression of commercial aviation, from dramatic headline's in the Daily Mail, with 4 million'ish readers, than the few 10 thousand who come here.

ickle (Just my opinion)

[shortfinals]

This is the internet. We have to expect the rough with the smooth.

Pilots are not some kind of exalted breed. The profession contains all the prejudices as well as high standards that you might find in any other.

Most threads end up with more sense than rubbish being traded, however crudely they may start. It's a great site and it's about as well moderated as it could be, given that it respects free speech.

If it wasn't PPRuNe it would be another site, and probably not as well run.

Don't let 'em grind you down, Danny!