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blagger
19th Jun 2009, 10:03
I'm a FI with IMC rating (haven't got time or money to get an IR, or inclination/need as a career FI) and thinking about doing the instrument instruction restriction removal to teach for the IMC. I had thought about delaying that due to the issues with the potential future of the IMC. However, I have just realised that with EASA FCL the current exemption on the pre-entry and revalidation requirements for FI(IRI) IMC holding instructors and IMC teaching only might disappear - even if the IMC rating remains. Indeed looking back at the EASA NPAs it looks like any FIs in the future would have to have and maintain a full IR and have 800hrs IFR to get the FI(IRI) bit and teach for the IMC. I wondered if anyone else had thought about this - I'm certainly thinking that I want to get the instrument instruction removal done pretty quick, but will I keep this privelege under EASA if I just maintain an IMC rating?

ps - also noticed in the EASA NPA (now closed!) that aerobatic instructors just need to have 20hrs aeroabtics experience, no mention of formal training like now.

DFC
19th Jun 2009, 13:52
At the moment an FI does not need 800 hours IFR to teach for the IR. That is not going to change.

The 800 hours is for an IRI who is someone who is not an FI but wants to teach for the IR.

While I don't expect that the current situation for IMC rating instructors would survive even if the IMC did (the current figure is very low), any proposal to retain the IMC would have to include a propasal for how people can qualify to teach the rating.

Similarly, I expect that the UK factor of 4 system would disappear.

In the end, since training for an IMC rating in the future would only happen in the future at an approved organisation, that organisation would have to set qualification and experience requirements plus set standards for instructors.

You are going to have to take a bet regarding the rating.

However, don't disregard the IR - If you are truly qualified to teach instrument flying and procedures and experienced in actual IMC flight then there is a relatively simple path to the JAA-IR via the FAA-IR if you already have the JAA CPL exams which of course you must have to be an instructor. In other words teaching the IMC rating for a while can help you get an IR with less pain than a non-IMC instructor.

Regards,

DFC

Whopity
19th Jun 2009, 17:44
if you already have the JAA CPL exams which of course you must have to be an instructor.Unfortunately, the CPL exams do not qualify you to add a JAA IR. You need the IR or ATPL exams to do that, and they are only valid for 3 years to obtain the rating.

Removing the "No applied Instrument limitation" a quaint pre-JAA hangover, effectively makes you an IRI in JAA speak, and once you have it, you won't be required to do it again.

DFC
19th Jun 2009, 21:04
Whopity,

Sorry, I did mean the ATPL exams - I don't think anyone does the CPL exams these days do they?

An instructor with the (UK) "No Applied Instrument Instruction" or (JAR) "No instruction for the IR" restriction removed is not an IRI.

What they are is an FI who can teach for the IR / IMC.

As for "and once you have it, you won't be required to do it again. "

Well while there is no defined requirement to complete the course again, if one is revalidating the FI rating by experience then;

Complete at least 50 hours of flight instruction on
aeroplanes as FI, CRI, IRI or as Examiner during
the period of validity of the rating, including at least
15 hours of flight instruction within the 12 months
preceding the expiry date of the FI rating, 10 hours
of this 15 hours shall be instruction for an IR if the
privileges to instruct for an IR are to be revalidated.

Which means that if you get the restriction removed but do not use it then it the privileges can not be used without another test.

Regards,

DFC

Whopity
23rd Jun 2009, 11:09
Its a case of the UK CAA never complying with that part of JAR-FCL mainly, because the software was never amended to cope with the change. The number of IRI ratings issued can be counted on one hand as the CAA regard a FI with the no applied IF restriction removed as an IRI. The IRI qualification is regarded as a stand alone qualification in the UK.

In reality to instruct for an IR you have to do "Standardisation" Training at an approved FTO before you can use the IRI privilege so its covered that way.

DFC
23rd Jun 2009, 23:30
The IRI qualification is regarded as a stand alone qualification in the UK.



As it is everywhere else also.

However, an example of an IRI is a CPL/IR holder with lots of hours who decides that they would like to teach IR students.

They get the IRI and can teach the IR. They can not teach anything else.

The FI however, can in very general terms teach everything that they hold unless their licence restricts them from teaching.

Perhaps this situation is why instructors seem to incorrectly think that they need to become an IRI before teaching the IR.

Regards,

DFC

Whopity
24th Jun 2009, 07:15
They get the IRI and can teach the IR. They can not teach anything else.
True for SE but there is very limited use for a IRI(SE. To teach on ME, the IRI must also be a CRI (ME)! So they can do ME ratings as well.

S-Works
24th Jun 2009, 07:16
The IRI course and the removal of the Instrument restriction are the same course. It is not unknown for some people to do an IRI before doing an FI course. They can then end up with an FI without an Instrument restriction and an IRI on the licence from the same thing.

DFC
26th Jun 2009, 08:37
The IRI course and the removal of the Instrument restriction are the same course.No they are not.

IRI course is made up of;

25 hours Groundschool

and

10 Hours Flight Training

For an FI to remove the restriction requires;

JAR-FCL - 5 Hours Flight Training

UK - 5 Hours Flight Training and 10 Hours Groundschool.

Seems that while JAR-FCL gives the FI full credit for the teaching and learning aspects, the UK does not.

Personally, I find that most candidates require a bit more than the 10 hours to get all the explanations and briefings correct so the difference is immaterial.

I think that you have read the following but not noted that it applies to teaching for the IMC rating.

In the UK, the
same (IRI) qualification course is also used to remove
the “No Applied Instrument Restriction” from a UK issued
Flight Instructor rating which may be used to teach for
the UK National IMC rating.

Regards,

DFC

S-Works
26th Jun 2009, 08:53
Indeed DFC. I did note that the original poster is from the UK rather than 'Euroland' and gave the answer to his question which was in regard to teaching for the IMC.

I will however be more careful to point out the UK element in future in order not to confuse you so easily.