PDA

View Full Version : Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions


FreeBird1106
18th Jun 2009, 22:04
A UK based Captain has been dismissed today for promoting union membership with cabin crew. The company accuses him of compromising safety (??)

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is happening here, in the UK, in 2009.

I have taken the liberty to start this thread separately from the other RYR threads, as I believe this requires every pilot's attention, from ANY airline.

The fellow pilot is known within the RYR pilot's community to be exemplary in his job, very experienced and highly regarded. I wish to give him all my support and solidarity here.

The aim for RYR's management is quite simple – instigate fear amongst us! Shame on you Molly. The BALPA campaign is very strong and is gaining great support, the management are now resolving to desperate measures. This is the time to keep a cool head and continue supporting the campaign.

Fellow Ryanair pilots, the time has come to make a difference, to change the system, to liberate ourselves from the bullies. Please join BALPA now, together we will make the difference, together we will face the opposition.

You will later this year be asked to take part in a vote for or against BALPA. I believe this is our last true chance to stop the rot, make no mistake. Remember this vote is confidential, you don't even need to be a member of BALPA.

There is only one bullet left, it's not a magic one, but it's our last bullet!

BALPA - Home (http://www.balpa.org)

captplaystation
18th Jun 2009, 22:25
Could you enlighten us as to exactly what charge in the list of "gross misconduct" offences he was found to be guilty of ?
I assume if he is out the door that is what is being intimated, can't imagine they left themselves so wide open as to dismiss him with some vague accusation outside the scope of the company regs, even if the "charge" is :hmm: a little tenous.
Oh dear, and after the`concillatory post directed at Leo I made on the other thread just 10 min ago . . . . . I sense a storm much worse than AF447 suffered brewing. . . . . batten down the hatches.
How horribly unnecessary, predictable, and unfortunately , entirely in character, this whole affair is playing out. :D Uh Ah / := :ugh:

Flex_Thrust
18th Jun 2009, 22:28
The thing is, pilots are a notoriously easy bunch to divide and conquer. Offer one a few quid more and he'll take it. How many f/o hands went up when they were looking for someone to fill that guys seat.
Also, if rumour has it right, theres 200+ pilots in MO'Ls holding pool of 'aerosexuals' as he called them, chomping at the bit to get in. And in 12m I might be one!
So how come you're rallying the Ryanair troops - from Florida?! Are you flying with FR?
It would take almost every pilot in FR to down tools, or simultaneously join BALPA, to suceed.
And there'll always be turncoats - how will you deal with them?!:hmm:
And if I'd spent 70k-100k on training and was offered a job, I hate to admit it, but yeah, I'd have to take the job I'd have no choice.:sad:

Flex_Thrust
18th Jun 2009, 22:32
Can't he sue them for that - what he did isn't unconstitutional?
(But it might be in at odds with his contract??)

inveritas
18th Jun 2009, 23:24
www.balpa.com

McBruce
19th Jun 2009, 00:10
I personally don't think going after Mugabellew is the solution. Spending those resources to out one only to be replaced by another.

Keep at the support, does everyone want RYR to continue like this?? or do you want change?

captplaystation
19th Jun 2009, 00:30
inveritas
I know you don't like him, but believe me his predecessors were really a lot less charming.
So, was he sacked for taking sickies ? or what are you on about ?
This is actually very serious, for anyone actually working there & in posssesion of a brain, so please don't reduce it to a personal hate-fest to the detriment of the majority.

411A
19th Jun 2009, 01:08
SVA did this very thing with a group of ex-Eastern Air Lines pilots a few years ago.
Called 'em all into the office (about forty in number) and they were told, point blank...'any more discussion about any sort of 'union' or 'association' and we will terminate the lot of you, right now.'

All 'union' discussion ceased, forthwith.

Don't care what company you're in...or the country, airline managements today have the upper hand.
The stack of applications in the HR department would, I firmly expect, cover all vacancies.

Think otherwise?
Try it and see.

BALPA?
A BA (and perhaps a few others, BMI, for example) entity, in all respects.
Otherwise, a paper tiger, nothing more, nor less.

Dan Winterland
19th Jun 2009, 02:53
All good and well in the good old USA, but not strictly legal in Europe.

The following is a dissemination of the Employments Relations Act 2004 and the Employemnt Act 2008. Taken from the Department for Business Innovation and Skills. (A UK Governernment body).


Trade union membership, activities and related matters

Right to belong to a trade union

Some individuals may wish to belong to a trade union and they enjoy certain protections where they do so.

All employees have the right:-

not to be dismissed, or selected for redundancy, for being a member of an independent trade union (2) or for proposing to become a member; and
not to be dismissed, or selected for redundancy, for failing to accept an offer made by their employer with the sole or main purpose of inducing them not to be or become a trade union member.
In addition, all employees and other workers have the right:

not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer to prevent or deter them from belonging to an independent trade union or from seeking to become a member, or to penalise them for so doing;
not to be made an offer by their employer where the sole or main purpose of the offer is to induce them not to be, or seek to become, a member; and
not to be subjected to a detriment for failing to accept such an offer.

Right to take part in trade union activities

Individuals have protection relating to their trade union activities.

All employees have the following rights relating to their trade union activities:

not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, for taking part, or proposing to take part, in the activities of an independent trade union at an appropriate time;
not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, because they failed to accept an offer made by their employer with the sole or main purpose of inducing them not to take part in the activities of an independent trade union at an appropriate time.

In addition, all employees and other workers have the right:

not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer to prevent or deter them from taking part in trade union activities at an appropriate time, or to penalise them for doing so;
not to be made an offer by their employer where the sole or main purpose of the employer is to induce them not to take part in an independent trade union’s activities at an appropriate time; and
not to be subjected to a detriment for failing to accept such an offer.
What are union activities?
The kinds of union activity in which an employee may take part are not set out in law. However, union activities involving an employee acting on behalf of the union, for instance as a shop steward representing a union that is recognised for collective bargaining purposes, would be covered, as would activities connected with the election or appointment of union officials.

Right to make use of union services

All employees have the following rights relating to the use they make of their union’s services:

not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, for making use, or proposing to make use, of the services of an independent trade union at an appropriate time; and
not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, because they failed to accept an offer made by their employer with the sole or main purpose of inducing them not to use the services of an independent trade union at an appropriate time.

In addition, all employees and other workers have the right:

not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer to prevent or deter them from using their union’s services at an appropriate time or to penalise them for doing so;
not to be made an offer by their employer where the sole or main purpose is to induce them not to make use of an independent trade union’s services at an appropriate time; and
not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer for failing to accept such an offer





Sounds like this Captain needs union representation!

Aldente
19th Jun 2009, 08:13
What has happened here is obvious. The Captain was sacked for his union promoting activities (bearing in mind the current tension levels between management and the pilots, this is a very sensitive issue), however to cover themselves (or try to !), the memo seems to suggest that by taking part in activities such as discussing union membership with cabin crew on the flight deck and issuing them with union membership forms at work, this prevented them or distracted them from carrying out their normal duties in full, and as such had an impact on flight safety, hence the "gross misconduct" charge.

It is unlikely to stand up in court at an unfair dismissal hearing, but the damage has been done, the message sent, and Ryanair will take the view (as they always do) that they will do what they like anyway, and even if they lose and have to shell out a few thousand, the wider impact of their actions will have been felt by the pilot workforce. They would simply regard it as money well spent and financially a drop in the ocean.

So if the cabin crew come into the flight deck during flight with hot drinks etc, and we ask them about what they did the previous night or where they went on holiday, this is presumably "distracting them from their duties" and therefore a hazard to flight safety as well ? ........

Pathetic !!!


:ugh:

despegue
19th Jun 2009, 08:34
FOR GOD's SAKE! STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why on Earth do ANY of you put op with this 19th century slavery?! Don't you FR guys have any self-respect?!
One of the most important things in being a professional and safe flight-crew member is having a backbone, it seems that FR pilots are just jellyfish...

DFC
19th Jun 2009, 08:42
issuing them with union membership forms at work, this prevented them or distracted them from carrying out their normal duties in full


I might be wrong but when one is "at work" during duty time one is usually contrated to exclusively do the work of one's employer and is usually excluded from doing work for another body.

Doing work for BALPA (or any other organisation) in work time where such activities were not agreed with the employer would be a breach of contract.

Why did this Captain not realise this and confine such activities to outside work time?

As for the "safety" issue - most airlines (and I expect Ryanair also) have a sterile cockpit requirement when below 10,000 in the last 1,000ft of climb or descent and when moving on the ground. I bet that every pilot could be pulled up on safety grounds under this requirement.

Nothing against the poor Captain involved but people need to put their brain in gear and go about things the right way to get the result they desire.

Regards,

DFC

Aldente
19th Jun 2009, 09:18
DFC, thanks for your rather sanctimonious post ....

So have you never spoken to cabin crew about anything other than "work related" topics in the cruise then ?

Bet you're a barrel of laughs to fly with !

I think most people exercising any common sense or sound judgement, can see this exercise for what it really is.

Read my last paragraph again .....





:*

BitMoreRightRudder
19th Jun 2009, 09:21
You will later this year be asked to take part in a vote for or against BALPA

I hope to god enough of you vote for union recognition. Ignore the likes of Leo and his mates who bleat on about how useless BALPA/IALPA are. You'll notice they are all sat fat dumb and selfish in the LHS, enjoying remuneration the vast majority in FR will never achieve. Leo and his well paid like in FR don't want union recognition because, wait for it, it might end up costing them a few pence, during the wailing-and-knashing-of-teeth aftermath/backlash in O'Pikey's office that is surely to take place if you guys actually succeed. Maybe a short term hit on T&Cs. Of course, long term, collective representation results in a more stable working environment and protects the Terms and Conditions in both seats. But why would a select few of the highest paid captains at FR want that? They are all right, Jack. A vocal minority. Sod the rest of you.

The truth from my experience of BALPA so far, working for an orange rival of FR, is that on the whole they are fairly toothless. But that is an irrelevance. The point is, in ezy, BA, etc etc collective representation exists, however imperfect it may be. And that is why the likes of ezy, again far from ideal, remains a stable and reasonable working environment. The only reason for this is collective representation.

Whitstle_Blower
19th Jun 2009, 09:34
despegue - You are aware that unless you are part of a recognised Union, then it is not legal to strike. Hence why the recognition MUST go thorugh. The worst the pilots can do right now is ALL take a sick day together, and ALL work 'TO RULE'.

Be aware that a 'Non-vote' counts as a 'NO' vote.

The vote WILL come this year and there is nothing that can be done.

The Captain in question is a very well regarded person in and out of the work place. This is a person who is a true proffesional and hasa never put a foot out of line, EVER! This person was also very much 'onside' with management.

If they are prepared to get rid of someone who is a near 'Model Employee', then what is there to stop them getting rid of ANYONE.

The first stone has been thrown, and all those people that are worried about loosing their jobs if they stand up and be counted when it comes to an ANONOMOUS VOTE, then just think, the company will shoot anyone in the back at anytime. You have no rights and protections UNLESS YOU VOTE 'YES'.
Regardless of what the outcome will be with a Union, it can no way be any worse then being saked for telling cabin crew that they need legal protection, because sure as you and I are breathing air, if something happens on that aircraft, it will be anyone's fault but the company, and if you don't have a Union's legal protection, guess who will be footing the bill when Ryanair Sue you!

Just a thought..................

angels
19th Jun 2009, 09:34
If this sorry tale is as cut and dried as it appears to be then the pilot has every chance of winning a court case.

Will BALPA back him?

DFC
19th Jun 2009, 09:37
So have you never spoken to cabin crew about anything other than "work related" topics in the cruise then ?



Talking about union membership would be a work related topic. I talk about all sorts - work related or not.

However, handing out forms on behalf of an organisation is doing the work of that organisation and a totally different thing.

Nothing wrong with talking about issues but as I said while employed by organisation A it is normal to be excluded during work time from doing the work of organisation B.

When you have a union you will see that time off during working hours for union duties are very much laid down in black and white and subject to agreement.

Regards,

DFC

easyme
19th Jun 2009, 09:43
However unfortunate for the chap who got fired, but is not the ideal oppertunity for BALPA to stand up?
If they support him and BALPA helps him to take Ryanair to court it would give out a sign to all RYR pilots; we will help you against MOL....

pilot999
19th Jun 2009, 09:44
Quote ::But why would a select few of the highest paid captains at FR want that? They are all right, Jack. A vocal minority. Sod the rest of you.

So please tell me ? As you believe so highly in UNITY, how do you and balpa intend to support him ? I would like to think that you will be one of the first to put your hand in your pocket. or are you all talk and no different to me , Which I admit is look after myself first because i don't expect you to do so.:)

fox niner
19th Jun 2009, 09:47
Unbelievable.....I thought the UK and/or Ireland were in the EU?
Everyone in the civilized part of the world had a basic RIGHT to be a member of a union.

In the country I live in, it would be soooooooow unacceptable if any employer behaved in this manner. It would backfire and create such a publicity mess that no company would even try to go there. It does not matter whether you make furniture, sell used cars of fly airplanes for a living.

Could someone explain why FR can get away with this? Or any UK or Irish company for that matter?

Re-Heat
19th Jun 2009, 09:47
DFC

Doing work for BALPA (or any other organisation) in work time where such activities were not agreed with the employer would be a breach of contract.
Google the following:

Hansard employment law

Read the UK Employment Acts 1996 & 2002, and try to understand the permissible nature of undertaking union activities, organising the workforce etc.

I assume by your tone, you have never picked up a newspaper, discussed your forthcoming holiday or even asked your colleagues how their day is going.

What a boring fellow.

The Real Slim Shady
19th Jun 2009, 10:10
This would appear to be the opportunity for BALPA to step up to the plate: let's see how they respond and take that as an indication of their effectiveness.

joehunt
19th Jun 2009, 10:20
The Real Slim Shady

Totally agreed.

If this Captain was a paid up member of BALPA, they should stand up to to these bullies. I will watch the actions of BALPA with great interest. If they cave in over this I for one will cancel my BALPA membership. ID cards, well will they have the balls to make a stand?

If the guy in question was a BA line pilot, BA crews would most probably been out on strike by now, if he was not reinstated.

Aldente
19th Jun 2009, 10:26
DFC, you are still missing the point !

How were his actions deemed to be A FLIGHT SAFETY ISSUE ?!

(for which he was dismissed on the spot - the union leaflets would have been a disciplinary hearing, the flight safety issues were thrown in to try and justify the company's actions at the industrial tribunal that will almost certainly follow )

PS
Wonder who shopped him ? Not much "unity" there .....

Aldente
19th Jun 2009, 10:47
The following phrase sprang to mind :-

'Pour encourager les autres' is a quote from Voltaire's 'Candide', often used in the context of political punishment and persecution.

The phrase 'pour encourager les autres' has subsequently entered the language, and is frequently used in the media whenever the official punishment for an act has seemed to be out of proportion to the act itself, or where the punishment has an element of political bias to it (in order to encourager les autres to shut up and keep their heads down). In these gentler times the term is often applied to sackings, or footballers who have been given a red card.

So there you have it........

doniedarko
19th Jun 2009, 10:58
The cause of union recognition in Ryanair was a fight that took place and was lost many years ago. BALPA came, played by the rules and took a beating that from those of us in Ryanair was embarrassing. They were outclassed outplayed and ran with their tail between there legs. Now Ryanair pilots themselves are responsible for this not BALPA being naive. What I find amusing is the same management now perceive a threat that I personally think is non existent. The paranoia is simply astounding. What threat ? what union ? . Are the trying to distract us from the fact that we took a shafting in April. Gave up productivity for free (A/L, LTC, No pay rise). All UK bases were frozen last week no transfers, no upgrades, was there a whimper was there :mad:. O'Lolly loses close to a billion in cocked up hedging and aer lingus shares.....is it mentioned No. We will be doing CDA approachs for a long time to make that kind of dough back. Anyway bottom line we are all sheep, admit it know it now get back into the flock with me like good boys...Baaaaa:}

MagnusP
19th Jun 2009, 11:28
unless you are part of a recognised Union, then it is not legal to strike.

Not strictly true. If you are not a member of the union which balloted on the action, then you have no legal protection against disciplinary action by your employer should you strike. That's not quite the same as illegal.

411A
19th Jun 2009, 11:33
FOR GOD's SAKE! STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why on Earth do ANY of you put op with this 19th century slavery?! Don't you FR guys have any self-respect?!
One of the most important things in being a professional and safe flight-crew member is having a backbone, it seems that FR pilots are just jellyfish...

The quite typical reply I would expect from a pilot not employed by the airline under discussion, and therefore unaffected by any sort of industrial action there...legal or not.
I would then wonder...would the poster with the above listed quote care to put his job on the line to enable 'better' employee relations at FR?

No?
Thought not.:}

DFC
19th Jun 2009, 11:40
How were his actions deemed to be A FLIGHT SAFETY ISSUE ?!



I never said that there was a flight safety issue.

The same thing applies if you are working in an office or working on a farm. When employed by an employer the employer has the right to expect that during your working hours while being paid you are working exclusively for them unless they agree otherwise. Handing out leaflets for an organisation is doing work for that organisation.

The fact that BALPA was not paying this person to hand out the leaflets does not detract from the fact that they were working for BALPA.

Had the pilot spoken with people and said "see me after work and I will give you a leaflet" then there can not be a problem since people have the right to talk about anything they like and it would be alsmost impossible to prove that such "talk" affected the work being done.

Finally I expect that UK employment law will have no effect on this matter if the pilot was employed in Ireland or was "self employed".

Regards,

DFC

backwardsman
19th Jun 2009, 11:57
Handing out leaflets.......??

What about 'recognition roulette' that was posted on the internal web system as a 'must read' document along with real safety related issues/documents?? i assume 99% of pilots read this 'safety' related pile of horse s**t when they reported for work........and im sure they read it there and then,certainly eating into the 45min report time,when flight plans,weather briefing and other 'safety' related tasks should be completed.....

As i have said on my (1) previous post,im still unsure about BALPA,but something like this,where one of the 'good' guys gets targeted,well,it makes you think,it cant get much worse.......

My thoughts go out to the captain,ive flown with him many a time,hes a good operator,a safe operator and a really nice chap also.a real loss.

good luck buddy.

merlinxx
19th Jun 2009, 12:06
That you soft lot on 'mol's' bouncy castle don't stand the heck up, and be counted:ugh: Do you realise what damage you are letting this bunch of
shag awful 'itinerants' (to use the legal Irish term) are doing to the good name of Tony Ryan RIP. And to yourselves, and others, if you can work for a third world employer in a so called first world country, then you are a sad bunch:ugh:

I'll never get anywhere near one of yr acft, go to SNN allot, fly & hire or get the ferry. Even the folks in SNN hate MOL:ugh:

Aldente
19th Jun 2009, 12:21
From DFC

I never said that there was a flight safety issue.

No, but the company did, and that's why they sacked him on the spot.

This is what angers me so much. They are saying that talking to cabin crew during the flight amounts to a distraction that is a flight safety issue !!!

Dan Winterland
19th Jun 2009, 12:53
Quote: "Could someone explain why FR can get away with this?".

Because they know they can, because their workforce have no representation.





At the moment!

Rob1975
19th Jun 2009, 13:40
Aldente, think you may have hit the nail on the head on this one - this probably will not stand up in court but RYR were waiting to make 'a point'
and show their workforce whos 'boss' esp. during this time. Would make me laugh if it wasn't so pathetic, and someone has lost their job.
Personally I think MOL should :mad: off to North Korea, think his 'management' skills would be put to good use there.

Things have got to come to a head in favour of the people who fly and work on MOL's multi million £ machines.

Unbelievable.

altogethernow
19th Jun 2009, 14:45
What very sad news this is, and sadder still that the likes of DFC get to spout their totally corrupted version of Employment Law on PPRuNe like Islamists spout bits of their holy book to suit their rogue agendas.

This captain should now proceed to take Ryanair for a few hundred thousand (he won't need a union lawyer for something this blatant) and those of you that counted said captain as a colleague should get your sorry a$$es into gear right now and start bringing your rogue employer to heel in oh so many ways.

airwave45
19th Jun 2009, 15:44
unionised work environments fail.

supply and demand rules.

you are kidding yourselves if you believe otherwise.
Strike all you like, you'll kill the company you work for.

Bearcat
19th Jun 2009, 16:04
was it micheal or peter bellew that fired him?

al446
19th Jun 2009, 19:19
unionised work environments fail.

Please substantiate this statement.

411A
19th Jun 2009, 19:33
Please substantiate this statement.

Depends on the specific country and the regulatory environment, however...just ask the folks at CX...the 49ers+ chose to try during hard times in the airline profits downturn...all were terminated without cause.

Similar at the original National Airlines, in Miami.
Bud Maytag (similar in the thought process with MOL), played the FD guys like a Stradivarius violin...and beat 'em every time.

Read up on history...good examples are available.

However, it can be said with a good deal of accuracy...pilots are many times their own worst enemy.
Silly fools.:rolleyes:

Leezyjet
19th Jun 2009, 19:59
pilots are many times their own worst enemy

Exactly because of people like this :-

And if I'd spent 70k-100k on training and was offered a job, I hate to admit it, but yeah, I'd have to take the job I'd have no choice

People who are so desperate to get a flying job that they will gladly shaft others and accept ever decreasing terms and conditions in order to achieve it without realising (or probably caring) about how it is making it worse for everyone in the long term.

Due to these sort of people we now have airlines like FR where YOU have to PAY to apply for the job, PAY for the interview, PAY for the t/r, PAY for the uniform etc etc....whilst NOT being paid to train and it is slowly spreading to other airlines too.

I have recently qualified and like most other low houred f/atpl's, I'm struggling to find a job, but I'll be voting with my feet as I DO have a choice - I will not apply for a job with that awful company.

Good luck with your vote to get union recognition.

:ok:

DFC
19th Jun 2009, 20:02
What very sad news this is, and sadder still that the likes of DFC get to spout their totally corrupted version of Employment Law on PPRuNe like Islamists spout bits of their holy book to suit their rogue agendas.



Have a read of the law before jumping to conclusions;

6.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the dismissal of an employee shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to be an unfair dismissal unless, having regard to all the circumstances, there were substantial grounds justifying the dismissal.
[GA] (http://0.0.7.185/ga/act/pub/0010/sec0006.html#s6_p1)(2) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) of this section, the dismissal of an employee shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to be an unfair dismissal if it results wholly or mainly from one or more of the following:
[GA] (http://0.0.7.185/ga/act/pub/0010/sec0006.html#s6_p2)( a ) the employee's membership, or proposal that he or another person become a member, of, or his engaging in activities on behalf of, a trade union or excepted body under the Trade Union Acts, 1941 and 1971, where the times at which he engages in such activities are outside his hours of work or are times during his hours of work in which he is permitted pursuant to the contract of employment between him and his employer so to engage,


Read the law here;

Irish Statute Book, Acts of the Oireachtas, Unfair Dismissals Act, 1977, Section 6 (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/act/pub/0010/sec0006.html#zza10y1977s6)

So if this pilot was fired for promoting BALPA or handing out leaflets during normal working time it is not unfair.

Regards,

DFC

Rob1975
19th Jun 2009, 20:27
as you know we have spent a lot of money and time in gaining our ratings only for this 'business model' called ryanair to shaft those who are employed by RYR...those who are employed by MOL mostly don't want to 'rock the boat' and i won't go into details about how RYR use newly qualified (at their expense) pilots to perpetuate this business model, but- and i would say this especially to newly employed/BRK RYR crew... look a litttle further into the future!

As i said previously, things WILL come to a head!

PBD 1
19th Jun 2009, 20:47
What an incredible state of affairs! My best wishes go out to the gentleman/professional caught out in this game of industrial ping pong. Prior to downloading our rostas (amongst other necessities) the continuous drip of political dross we must submit as read is becoming childish and irritating.
Whoever represents this former "Company Man" in any forthcoming court case will surely draw on specialist advisers, Material wittnesses as well as character referees. The judge or tribunal will then analyse and evaluate before using such words as unfair dismissal, psychological bullying, intimidation, loss of earnings, stress or deformation of character e.t.c. Doesn't matter if BALPA or anyone else for that matter represent this chap all recent events have done is stoke the fire! As with the hedging and the financial write down on the Lingus shares Ryanair seem hell bent on S&*%£@G the shareholders money up the wall again! Tribunal case should be interesting save me a place in the public gallery!!:ugh:

alibaba
19th Jun 2009, 20:53
The pilot in question was bound to UK, English and Welsh Law. Not Irish as he was UK contracted. So the reference you have used DFC is wrong.

Dan Winterland has hit the nail on the head. So the question is how was this Gross Misconduct on safety? This will be up to the lawyers to argue out.

This act will only make pilots more resolute and clear that they have no other choice now than to continue and seek recognition. This type of management will act how it wants, when it wants and will suffer the pain later as the longer economic gain and the obvious attempt to attack hearts and minds against pilots will outweigh the financial loss in tribunal. As the many past industrial tribunal victories and court cases have proven in the past. Management are planning long term as should pilots. The problem for management is that the pilots aren't in the mood for flinching.

Disgusting type of behaviour in the 21st century but nothing the pilot community has not seen before from this company.

Rob1975
19th Jun 2009, 20:55
Well said, PBD - it's just a shame RYR are raising the stakes in this way to stave off the 'collective mood' with peoples careers'

I await Leo HC's post...

joehunt
20th Jun 2009, 05:19
There seem to be a lot of unhappy pilots at RYR. Unhappy pilots can be dangerous pilots.

If you abuse machinery, it will let you down at some stage. If you treat your personal as machines and abuse them, they will let you down, sooner or later.

You will get more productivity from a person who is happy, than unhappy. Same in the simulator, as people perform better in a relaxed and happy environment than one of pressure and fear.

I don't know where all this will lead but it will only take one bad accident (God forbid) to wipe the profits (gained by screwing crew) right out and the smiles off one or two faces. It could ruin a company.

Accident investigators normally find out what went wrong and when. They do not however, have the expertise to know if the crew members involved had their "minds on the job". Pilot error? The question should also be asked is why, the error.

Companies go to great lengths in screening crews to avoid this very thing but once, or before, the crews make the cut, they are abused!

Guava Tree
20th Jun 2009, 06:05
No matter it is an employer that you don't like or a woman that you don't like, it is almost always better policy and more fun to be fired rather than to resign.

411A
20th Jun 2009, 07:00
...it is almost always better policy and more fun to be fired rather than to resign.

Silly fool.:}
I know of several companies that will not hire a new employee that has been terminated (fired) for cause, previously.

IE: Burn bridges, expect problems.

Guava Tree
20th Jun 2009, 07:37
Dear Darling 411A
You say you know of "several" companies who will not hire in this circumstance.
I don't think that "several " is representative of the industry in in general.
Also I do not think that calling a fellow poster a "silly fool" is allowed under forum rules and I will be referring your comment for moderation.
Are you still management of some airline company?

Boy
20th Jun 2009, 07:39
In an otherwise depressing discussion about a depressing employer it is at least good to see that nobody is engaging with 411A, he of the endless negative message and with little to occupy his time.

All but 2 of his 4,500 odd posts concern the uselessness of unions and pilots with the implicit message that everybody should buy their job, defer to any idiot who is "in charge" but who nonetheless uses their skills.

It is also tiresome to hear his examples taken mainly from U.S. airlines and endlessly repeated Monty Pythonesque whine "you are all doomed".

Arizona is just not far enough away for this guff. But you've got to give it to him, he just keeps on going, and going and going.

FrequentSLF
20th Jun 2009, 07:41
Guava Tree

I don't think that "several " is representative of the industry in in general.

I cannot speak for your industry, but I can confirm, generally speaking, HR will not look with much interest at CVs submitted by terminated employees, worse if the application is for management positions.

FSLF

Guava Tree
20th Jun 2009, 08:03
Yes, SLF. Your post tends to confirm our belief that is “HR” is not an acronym for “Human Intelligence”.

(at least in Malaysia where is displayed your location)

Bronx
20th Jun 2009, 08:44
Guava Tree Also I do not think that calling a fellow poster a "silly fool" is allowed under forum rules and I will be referring your comment for moderation.
Are you complaining about "silly" or "fool"?

You said:it is almost always better policy and more fun to be fired rather than to resign. I guess there's lots of words for something as stupid as that. :rolleyes:

FrequentSLF
20th Jun 2009, 08:51
Guava Tree

Yes, SLF. Your post tends to confirm our belief that is “HR” is not an acronym for “Human Intelligence”.

(at least in Malaysia where is displayed your location)

Of course "HR" is not acronym for "Human Intelligence", which is supposed to be "HI"

I cannot understand why my location infers with my comment?

Doug the Head
20th Jun 2009, 09:49
In an otherwise depressing discussion about a depressing employer it is at least good to see that nobody is engaging with 411A, he of the endless negative message and with little to occupy his time.He probably holds the PPRuNe record for "ignore list" entries. :)

xetroV
20th Jun 2009, 11:00
So if this pilot was fired for promoting BALPA or handing out leaflets during normal working time it is not unfair.
You keep on commenting on a fictitious situation that didn't happen in the first place!

This captain was not fired for that reason; he was fired because he jeopardized safety in some twisted view of some twisted managers. Is that "not unfair" too in your opinion?

JennyB
20th Jun 2009, 12:01
Until self interest is replaced by more altruistic concerns then things will never change, unfortunately don't think that any would be prepared for this sort of action?

Over 2,000 down tools for sacked Total strikers - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/5581611/Over-2000-down-tools-for-sacked-Total--strikers.html)

bigflyingrob
20th Jun 2009, 12:15
Don't mention GCHQ. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it!
Rob

DFC
20th Jun 2009, 13:26
This captain was not fired for that reason; he was fired because he jeopardized safety in some twisted view of some twisted managers. Is that "not unfair" too in your opinion?

It is not unfair if safety was indeed jeopardised. The ops manual and SOPs would probably play a big part in deciding that.

However, what sticks in my mind is - If this pilot was doing something "unsafe" and/or handing out BALPA leaflets, unless it was seen by a manager then who reported the situation?

If it was seen by a manager then the Darwin employment award has been given.

If someone else reported the "activity" to management then is everyone questioning the right of a crewmember to report a safety issue and for action to be taken as a result?

Simply seems to me that if the "incident" happened during flight and the Captain did not report it himself and there was not a manager present to see it then another crew member must have reported the situation? :eek:

Regards,

DFC

volarecantare
20th Jun 2009, 13:47
It appears there is no end to the abuse we are willing to take to keep our jobs! We prefer to have our health families dignity crash but our flight safety levels are maintained....and the Airline takes the credit for this! Also the fact that if I understand correctly he was fired not for promoting Unions but for doing so in the flight deck is classic RyanAir , so it is a safety compromise not a union membership issue .

Why have we always been so reluctant to "use the safety card" ourselves as a body? This sort of continued intimidation by an obviously deranged man surely is having it own direct impact on an already exhausted and traumatized pilot body.

Advertise widely Unions and get yourselves the best team of layers available!

Bronx
20th Jun 2009, 13:54
This captain was not fired for that reason

Can someone who knows the facts tell us what reason(s) the company actually gave for firing the captain.

What does the company actually claim he did wrong?

Was he given written reasons?
Has anyone seen them?

This thread would be more interesting if we had some facts to discuss instead of rumor.



B.

Boy
20th Jun 2009, 13:58
DFC, don't you think it somewhat unwise to be engaging in such speculation? Or even to be willing to do so?

You appear to me to be off on a long line of deductive reasoning in which all you show is (a) your ignorance of facts, (b) a willingness to speculate on very little, and (c) a willingness to betray your personal inclinations and biases.

What good does that do anybody, much less somebody who seems to value their own insights to a high degree? It is indeed true to say It is not unfair if safety was indeed jeopardised. But what does stating this truism add? I can assert with 100% confidence that you Sir are subject to the law of the land and the laws of gravity wherever you are. So there, that's told you!

What does not appear in your speculations is the possibility that a management team with a well-deserved reputation for misbehaviour may have done something wrong, improper or possibly even illegal. Why so?

the grim repa
20th Jun 2009, 16:07
Attn: All UK Pilots
From:P***R B****w
Date:18 June 2009
Re: Captain Dismissal UK

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
A UK based Ryanair Captain was dismissed earlier today for gross misconduct. The
Captain in question took it upon himself to routinely distribute union membership
forms and actively encourage Cabin Crew during duty time and on the flight deck to
join the T&G union. This is completely unacceptable behaviour for a Captain and in
my view a potentially serious safety issue.
What people do outside of the workplace is their own business - we are running an
airline here and we expect our crew to discharge their duties in full and not to be
involved in any union activity during working hours that could distract our people from their
normal duties and potentially impact on passenger safety.
P***r B****w
Deputy Director - Flight Operations

irishatco
20th Jun 2009, 16:50
DFC, don't you think it somewhat unwise to be engaging in such speculation? Or even to be willing to do so?

You appear to me to be off on a long line of deductive reasoning in which all you show is (a) your ignorance of facts, (b) a willingness to speculate on very little, and (c) a willingness to betray your personal inclinations and biases.

What good does that do anybody, much less somebody who seems to value their own insights to a high degree? It is indeed true to say
Quote:
It is not unfair if safety was indeed jeopardised.
But what does stating this truism add? I can assert with 100% confidence that you Sir are subject to the law of the land and the laws of gravity wherever you are. So there, that's told you!

What does not appear in your speculations is the possibility that a management team with a well-deserved reputation for misbehaviour may have done something wrong, improper or possibly even illegal. Why so?

Boy, a very concise summation of this posters actions/opinions on this thread, and if you care to check back - most other threads that he/she gets involved with.
Specifically, IAA ATCOs had a similar experience last year during an ongoing dispute, trying to offer information to DFC in reply to their questions, but finding out that we were just feeding a troll.
We found that by ignoring or failing to engage, that DFC :mad: off to annoy someone else in the PPRUNE community.
Its just this threads turn!

JW411
20th Jun 2009, 17:28
I freely admit to being easily confused but why was he (or she) handing out T&G application forms to cabin staff on the flight deck?

I could just about understand handing out BALPA application forms to pilots on the flight deck but this seems bizarre and the big question surely is who shopped him to the management and why did they do that?

MrsRyan
20th Jun 2009, 17:39
Ryanair pilots are not mugs. We are not spineless jellyfish and neither are we slaves. Just a few of the ignorant comments left by god knows who. I enjoy and take pride in my job. There are some great benifits to flying for Ryanair.I never fly through the night. I don't have to get fat on greasy, salty, cooked to within an inch of it's life crew food. I don't have to sit next to a captain who does nothing but moan about his pension. I work a fixed roster of 5 on 4 off, get 2 lots of 2 weeks holiday in the summer and a month off in the winter to fekk off somewhere warm and sunny. This ensures I don't get S.A.D. and end up forever posting sh&te on forums like this. O...and I get payed pretty well too.Balpa are intent on ruining things as far as I can see. Here is a fact rightly or wrongly, Ryanair hate Balpa. And, Balpa hate Ryanair and only want to protect the interests of B.A. And lets get one more thing straight, Ryanair play hardball when they want to,they take on the monopolising BAA, they pull out of bases when the (Spanish)authorities give unfair advantages and funding to their local airlines (Valencia)and that's why (whether you guys like it or not) they have a thriving business which offers the best and only real long term job security you can get. Nobody wants to see folk getting sacked but this is not a good time for unions.

DFC
20th Jun 2009, 17:41
Thanks for confirming the situation Grim Repa.

Seems like some member of the team he was Captain of informed "someone else" of the activities. Otherwise how did they find out?

As I said previously, if doing union work in contracted working time, UK or Ireland - not permitted unless already a union official (rep) or seeking election to such a position and the system has been agreed in advance.

Good luck to the pilot. I have no doubt that this was done to "make an example". However, it will be very interesting to see what direction this takes.

Would I be correct to say that at a tribunal, unfair dismissal compensation is capped in the UK?

Regards,

DFC

PS - Irish ATCO, I did say during the debate back then that 1 year later it would be a totally different picture. Seems I was correct!! Would you like to revisit your projections for traffic levels, pay or staff? :D :D :D

snaga
20th Jun 2009, 17:51
I got the following info from a poster on another site and I think he or she makes a very good point. They following account of what a barrister representing Ryanair had to say was published in yesterday's Irish Times.

Mr Beatty insisted Ryanair’s position did not represent “a blanket ban” on promotion for those who had outstanding complaints against the company.

Mr Beatty argued that even if the firm had such a ban, it was not illegal. “You might find it distasteful or immoral, but it is not unlawful,” he said. Discrimination was prohibited in relation to gender, sexual orientation, race or membership of the Travelling community. But apart from the criteria “specifically laid down by statute, an employer can use any criteria to engage or promote staff”.

Even Ryanair's barrister considers that their actions might be "distasteful or immoral". He is presumably concerned enough about Ryanair's actions that he is pointing out that such discrimination cannot be taken into account as the actions were "not unlawful". (This was at the end of a court/tribunal hearing, presumably constructive dismissal).

As the original poster put it: Is this stuff not so telling? Unless discrimination is specifically prohibited the "employer can use any criteria to engage or promote staff". Any criteria!!! That includes not liking the kind of car you drive, and 1.5 million other things.

I think that all of this puts Ryanair's "safety action" - and all their other actions - in a correct context for our discussions and comments here. This has everything to do with what Ryanair want to do and nothing to do with morality, fairness nor anything else that looks like civilised or reasonable behaviour.

Not only do they not do shame, they are proud of their actions. And the likes of Mrs Ryan thinks it equally good to be a jelly fish who hears and sees no evil. Jelly fish is a well chosen name to describe such people.

757_Driver
20th Jun 2009, 18:55
welcome mrs Ryan - another MOL screen name no doubt.
Tell me - you in Ryanair management are very vocal about how unfair it is to compete against airlines that have unfair treatment or subsidies (like Alitalia, and indeed the Spanish example in your post). Well I think it is unfair on the other 99.9999% of airlines in europe to have to compete with your airline that doesn't obey contract or employment law. Its a pity the irish government is so spineless really - or is that why this sorry company is registered there?
But I have faith. What comes around, goes around. In 10 years MOL will be a distant memory, a footnote amongs the thousands of failed airline executives and Ryanair either wont exist, or will have morphed into an entirely different, entity.

Bronx
20th Jun 2009, 20:42
welcome mrs Ryan - another MOL screen name no doubt.

I've read several Ryanair threads and there's a few things that puzzle me.

Do the anti Ryanair posters really believe every Ryanair pilot agrees with their views about the company?
And anyone who doesn't is either MOL or someone else from Ryanair management?
Why are the anti Ryanair posters so abusive to posters that don;t agree with their opinions?


the grim repa
Thanks for posting the letter.

IF IT'S TRUE the Captain was encouraging Cabin Crew to join the T&G union and distributing membership forms in the company's time and on the flight deck then IMHOthe company is entitled to view it as unacceptable behavior.

Firing him sounds harsh but he must have known the risk he was taking.
The letter says "routinely". Was this the first time he did it?
As JW411 says I could just about understand handing out BALPA forms to pilots, but what was he doing handing out T&G application forms to cabin attendants? :confused:
Did he think it was acceptable behavior? Or that the company would regard it as acceptable to be doing that in the company's time?

Norman Stanley Fletcher
20th Jun 2009, 21:18
MrsRyan - first post so I console myself it can only get better. So true that Ryanair's pilots are not all jellyfish - alas enough of them are to guarantee you will be the pariah of the industry. I imagine you are in your first job and know no different. Ignorance is bliss, and as you appear so blissful, I can only marvel at the level of ignorance you have achieved in such a short time. Enjoy the moment and turn a deaf ear to all around you, lest it disturb the slumber of your conscience. It is a well-trodden path, that led to the rise of too many dictators worth boring you with the details of. There again, if the trains ran on time, it seemed so churlish to ask deeper questions that could be construed as disloyalty. Wouldn't it be strange if you got to the end of your life and found out it wasn't all about you after all?

Aldente
20th Jun 2009, 21:19
Bronx,

So do you too think it was a "serious safety issue" and an "impact on passenger safety" by distracting the cabin crew from their normal duties ?

Had he been talking about other matters such as the previous night's TV etc, would this also be a flight safety issue ? ....

You just don't get it do you ?

Sigh .........


:ugh:

Bronx
20th Jun 2009, 21:34
Aldente

No, I don't think was a serious safety issue. If I thought that I would have said it.

You just don't get it do you ?
Sigh .........
Depends what you mean by "get it".
I guess "get it" means agreeing with your opinions.
:ugh:

snaga
20th Jun 2009, 21:39
Hi Bronx. You ask Do the anti Ryanair lobby really believe every Ryanair pilot agrees with their views and anyone who doesn't is either MOL or someone else from Ryanair management?
Nope, not necessarily. However neither is it entirely a matter of conspiracy theories and the like. Ryanair takes pilot opinion a lot more seriously than do their pilots (more's the shame on the pilots). For this reason they, and their fellow travellers frequent various places to preach the doctrine to "un-believers". (Among other things they make a lot of money from training cadets and want to keep the gullible lined up to part with money).

Such posters often suffer from the same disease as any true believer in anything, which is a certain tendancy to blindness, ideological purity, an unwillingness to admit to ANY deficiencies, consistently being on message, etc. There are indeed exceptions, most often young "cadets" who think that they owe the Ryanair model of exploitation some form of loyalty once they have spent a lot of money getting into Ryanair and signing onto a lot of debt. Buy the job and buy the model of continual pay decreases (sorry, I meant "responses to the competitive environment").

As the coincidence would have it, our brand new poster(first post!) - Mrs Ryan who posts with clear knowledge and confidence - has produced a classic pro-Ryanair post. It would be tedious to do an analysis of all the key "talking points" and positives about Ryanair (a token couple of which are correct), but if you pay close attention to each phrase, there is a lot to learn. Then watch out for the same routine elsewhere. The question is whether or not Mrs Ryan is a real Ryanair pilot. I, for one, doubt it very much.

More difficult to catch are those who do the "I'm completely with you, but I would like to point out why you're going to fail/are all doomed" type of post. But in the end they too give themselves away.

By the way, the opposite is just as true. It is easy to spot the opposition. But, in general, the opposition don't need to hide anything as they just want people to open their eyes to a rather blinding reality (something I tried to encourage in my post above as a parting shot before heading off on holiday tomorrow). Sit back and enjoy it all ... and await the arrival of the "heavy gunnery" Leo H-C who most assuredly is a commited believer in the Church of Ryanair Pilots, and a real Ryanair pilot.

BongleBear
20th Jun 2009, 22:33
firstly, i'd like to say that i am on the fence about the vote. most of the guys i fly with aren't voting, the most common reason seems to be bad experiences with balpa at previous airlines. the second officers seem to be believing the tripe that eddy/mol/pb are producing and are scared - especially since the uk base freeze and threat of uk base closures. when i first heard about the vote i was determined to vote for it. i'm not in balpa but i understand (from link on repaweb) that i can have my say regardless.
the reason i am now undecided isn't because of threats from management - i think we all know the talk of closing uk bases etc if balpa are introduced is empty bull, it's actually from colleagues comments.

this comment wont go down well, but i fall in the same category as mrsryan, i too am a happy jellyfish - and have also been accused of being management before. that pisses me off. you guys with such strong anti-ryanair management feelings don't seem to understand that there are plenty who are happy with life at ryanair. are there 50% like us? from those i fly with; i think there are.

anyway, i've been told that a couple of bases are well above their target of getting voters - those are both southern bases, but others are falling short. in my opinion i don't think it will go through.

can anyone tell me when exactly the ballot closes?

cheers,

b bear

p.s. i know this is the thread about the skipper who got fired, apologies about my part in steering it the wrong way. he didn't deserve it, nice guy. i'm sure when the dust settles, whichever way the vote goes, he'll have his day in court and collect a nice settlement. i know he's reading this, so good luck.

BALLSOUT
21st Jun 2009, 00:18
It's all becoming a bit of a mess I think. I don't know who the guy that got fired is so I dont know if I know him or not. I, like most others am deeply sorry to hear that it has hapened, yet not surprised.
There are many camps within the workforce at Ryanair so I wouldn't like to put money on the outcome of the vote. I am told that the vote will be done base by base. This in its is self is not good. In my opinion this will only put those in small bases in a very dangerous position. For this reason alone, I will be surprised if any of the small bases vote for BALPA. Maybe things at STN will be different.
With regards to MrsRyan's post. Regardles of the validity of his/her claims. There are many at Ryanair that feel this way. I know a few, myself included that have worked in BALPA recognised companies before, and were happy to join Ryanair to get away from them. Having been round the block a few times I am aware of the downside of flying for Ryanair, there are however many good sides that people seem to ignore, or shout down when mentioned.
Many of the people who claim to be unhappy with working at Ryanair have not even worked anyware else, yet are happy to shout about how hard they are being done by. I personaly think the only winner from a BALPA win will be BALPA, the staff will pay heavily in the fallout. If BALPA loose the vote now, the staff will pay heavily in the fallout.
I have no great feeling either way about BALPA as I have always been happy with Ryanair since I joined. Yes, in the long term maybe BALPA recognition may be a good thing, but I wonder how many people will be happy to pay the price in the mean time.
Before you start shouting, yes I am a BAPLA member, and no, I don't know how I will vote!

411A
21st Jun 2009, 03:06
One cannot help but wonder if...many of the FR detractors here were not actually turned down for FR employment recently, or in the past.
If so, it would certainly explain their negative attitudes.
IE: sour grapes, personified....:bored::rolleyes:

stormin norman
21st Jun 2009, 06:12
I'm surprised being Ryanair he wasn't charging for the forms -must be a first !

DFC
21st Jun 2009, 09:08
Have a look at what the grim repa posted. Note that the memo is to "ALL UK PIlots".

Why would such a notice not be sent to all pilots? Why not the many Irish pilots, German pilots, Italian pilots etc etc etc?

Is it the case that the majority of pilots doing things like this pilot are UK pilots and if that is the case then why?

Regards,

DFC

Aloue
21st Jun 2009, 09:30
Deary, deary me .... DFC you betray a curious lack of grasp about what is going on. I'm beginning to look upon you in a new, more (frighteningly) innocent light.

U.K. pilots are preparing for a recognition vote.

It is not necessary to frighten the other pilots (yet).

It is necessary to frighten the U.K. pilots.

You fire a U.K pilot who has been giving material to cabin crew to concentrate the minds of U.K. pilots.

It matters little if this has nothing to do with BALPA.

Just as was the case with Captain Goss in Dublin, when they tried to fire him - unfairly and improperly, as a court subsequently found. Funnily enough it was at a time when the pilots there wanted to stand up for themselves.

Just a coincidence?

To fire = to demonstrate power = to frighten = to divide and conquer = to keep people in their place.

Aldente
21st Jun 2009, 10:40
My sentiments exactly - as I said a while back :-

"pour encourager les autres" !

(Google it if you don't know the true meaning)

the grim repa
21st Jun 2009, 12:06
Bronx - i would add two caveats to my previous post.

(1)any letter from ryanair management can contain elements of complete untruth and they have previous form in firing people to scare the pilots.

(2)there is no indication that any disciplinary process was followed here.


For those pilots who want sit on the fence,envisage this.What is stopping ryanair from completely tearing apart your terms and conditions.I believe it is the threat of union recognition.If there is a recognition vote and it is not carried,there is then a 3 year ban on union recognition activity.in those 3 years,you will be raped beyond recognition.

captjns
21st Jun 2009, 12:18
If the infraction was done during flight, I hope the rat bastard who did Judas act against the captain was rewarded by both the company and appropriately recognized by his/her peers. These types of individuals need to realize that there is no room for acts of this type.

Another rat who wants to be a hero will do the same thing. You got to treat these pests with pesticide... and now!

As for contracted labor organizations such as BALPA, IALPA, ALPA... etc. their motivations are their financial positions first.


Start an inhouse union or association... better control on finances and interests.

Either way... good luck.

DFC
21st Jun 2009, 13:09
U.K. pilots are preparing for a recognition vote.



Thanks for that.

What percentage of the total pilot group is made up by "UK Pilots"?

What percentage of the pilot group have to vote in favour of being represented by a union before Ryanair have to pay attention?

Regards,

DFC

altogethernow
21st Jun 2009, 13:26
On the nail, Norman Stanley Fletcher, ... there are none so blind as those who will not see !

And Aldente, also bang on, what we are witnessing is a bald management scare tactic. I have seen exactly the same used in another major UK industry where morals and public interest issues have very little place.

Right down to public announcements that "So and so was sacked today for gross misconduct". That leaves the sheep nervous wondering what the hell happened and each with their own idea of how they should each reel in their own neck to make sure the same doesn't happen to them.

What we are continually witnessing in the UK at least is the wholesale abuse of the words of disciplinary procedures, and of phrases migrated from other legal scenarios e.g. gross negligence in Third Party Liability parlance migrated to gross misconduct in Employment Law scenarios. There never was a satisfactory definition of these phrases and whether or not they applied remained something to be discovered under serious litigation. We have "smart" company lawyers to thank for the fact that these are now the first words we find up front, and no longer those reluctantly concluded after lengthy investigation.

Most reasonable people would assume that an accusation of gross misconduct meant that you had done something hellish. The company management would respond "Yes indeed". But in fact all it now takes is a stated disagreement with a point well landed by the employee on an intransigent or even bullying manager, or the obscenity of a disgustingly mercenary Ryanair manager prepared to stick two fingers up an employee's backside in order to eject them from the premises over some sham issue (such as the reason here).

Misconduct is a word you rarely see thesedays without the gross prefix. It would be too benign for any management action worth reporting otherwise, wouldn't it? Company lawyers have hijacked the phrase "gross misconduct" as one of their main tools to leverage immediate dismissal with basically no questions asked other than "Did you do that?" - "Yes?" - "Well then you are found guilty of gross misconduct in the workplace and are therefore dismissed". They then leave it to the smashed down employee to dare to get up off the floor and litigate. In actual fact, as I said before, I reckon it would be dead easy for this captain to litigate and take Ryanair for a few hundred thou too, but will he? If the employee doesn't have the stomach for months of it (like most Ryanair employees) then, as Ryanair are surely betting, Ryanair will get away with it. No-one can do anything about this one except the captain himself. I feel for him.

So, if we aren't all going to become active union members (I am but you lot won't be, will you?) I guess we all just pity the guy, because I don't see any signs on PPRuNe, that indicate other than that any given group of today's airline pilots, much like any other generally well-paid group e.g. city traders, are a supremely selfish bunch with few of their peers' let alone the public's interests truly at heart.

If they start beating you remaining compliant ones with plastic tubes filled with concrete, will you do any different? I shan't hold my breath.

Baron rouge
21st Jun 2009, 16:39
Excellent analyse altogethernow.

I would just add one thing, no union would be fair enough to act for this fired guy.

In France we have a guy even worse than MOL, his name is M*** R*******, he does not care about work legislation and fired people to "encourager les autres".
No union put up against him, although the cases were quite simple to defend, and the pilots were part of that Union called SNPL.
no pilots helped the guys who in the end were reinstituated by the tribunal.

The only thing BALPA can do to prouve its willingness to protect FR pilots is to defend this pilot using everything in its capacity, including strike by all UK airline if as you all say what happen to FR will affect all UK airlines.

Than probably they will win a ballot.

Leave names out of it.

RAT 5
21st Jun 2009, 17:18
It really does seem a declaration of war by RYR. Surely this case is superb opportunity for any association wishing to represent a group of employees to offer free help and show its mettle. If none do then they demostrate something else and it is surely not going to attract new recruits.
However, back to the case in point. It is written by RYR that the gross misconduct had a potentail -ve Flight safety consequence. In any court of appeal, should the employee choose that rotue, they would have to demonstrate this charge and how it would have said effect. Thye can't just make up the rules off the cuff. They can try, but if opposed then they have to justify their actions. Does anyone, including Leo H.C. have any idea what criterea they could possible use to justify this claim to an independant tribunal? This is legal territory. There has been much comment about RYR doing what it wants; and this pilot brought it upon himself etc. etc. That's not the point. If they acted outside their own written disciplinary code, and EU labour law, they have to stand up and justify it.
Interestingly, P.B. has put his own name to the action. He said that "in his opinion......." This would suggest it did not come from Dublin; or is he being hung out to dry? Any inside knowledge.

One thing is certain; if this was on the trains/busses/freight lorries they would stop running the next day; at least out of the station of this employee.

MrsRyan
21st Jun 2009, 17:41
Apparently it was cabin crew who reported this guy. Noone wants to see anyone sacked. However I must say I flew with a (very) old school captain a while ago who was so busy shoving his union opinions down my throat that he did infact create a very bad atmosphere and was clearly not concentrating on the very important job he was being paid to do. But obviously, this guy shouldn't have been sacked (and it wasn't him btw!)
I've heard some opinions on my post that it's clearly not possible for me to be a real ryanair pilot as I have a tendancy to (god forbid) enjoy my job, and that it's "obviously my first job and (bless me) I'm sooooo naive." Well this isn't my first ailine job. 2 x charter airlines, 1 x longhaul carrier and a coorporate operator. And......I really don't mind Ryanair. It's not perfect. It could be alot better but it could be alot worse too. I live in the real world though and if I'd wanted to live the life of a millionaire playboy then I wouldn't have become a pilot. I'd've got a job in the city and worked all the hours god sends in a godforsaken office. So instead I chose to enjoy my life and do something I loved and be fairly paid for it.
This is not a good time for balpa. We have no real bargaining power as there's no other jobs on offer!! By the time they've got in and Ryanair have :mad: us over because of it, it'll take about 10 years to scrape back what we already had.
Anyway these posts talk about divide and conquer too.......other airlines are guilty of that too. BA have old and new contract. The new guys will never make anywhere near as much as their collegues in the left hand seat. Balpa protects the old boys and their final salary pensions. So think what you all like. But remember, the golden age of aviation ended about a decade ago.........for everyone. Just as well really or else none of us could even afford to go on holiday with our tickets funding the wallets of overpaid captains and their 3 ex wives.

Safety Concerns
21st Jun 2009, 17:53
sorry can't resist it. The very fact that I have enough time to sit here like you and post is because of unions. Unions fought for decent working hours and holidays not your boss or all the naive we can do it without a union idiots.Yes they may get it wrong every now and then but they also have to put up with half educated half wits who think they know best.

The facts speak for themselves in every industry. Unionised work places usually have better terms and conditions.

Stand up and be counted for christs sake.

eagerbeaver1
21st Jun 2009, 18:37
MrsRyan - I am challenging your claim of employment. I reckon you are exaggerating. Five jobs and you are a Co-pilot? Don't add up sunshine.

I don't mind my job either but I hate the way I am treated so I am trying to help change things.

You speak the familiar rhetoric of someone who wants it done for them. Get on side please.

The Real Slim Shady
21st Jun 2009, 18:44
Unionised work places usually have better terms and conditions My emphasis.

I simply reiterate, would someone from BALPA please just spell out definitively the benefits we can expect from recognition?

Not wishy washy "improvements": be specific.

Publish the mainfesto.

Aldente
21st Jun 2009, 19:05
Yes, do .....

And after that maybe someone from one of the Ryanair ERC's can outline "definitively" the benefits they have achieved recently ?

Such as the "improvements" to the annual leave system for instance .....

altogethernow
21st Jun 2009, 19:18
Oh dear, there's another one that wants it on a plate :ugh:

If you associate, or if you unonise, mostly you'll be it :eek: Scarey eh?

Actually, watching you RYR peeps coming out of the whitewashed side streets into the sun reminds me of an old spaghetti western where the villagers expect to employ the passing gunslingers who will naturally see off the baddies :rolleyes:

There's slightly more local commitment required methinks, some senior townsfolk will need to learn to lead again, and plan, and some nice peeps will inevitably get hurt ... now where's your stomach for that? :yuk:

Bingaling
21st Jun 2009, 20:24
Folks it's actually quite simple. You unite, stand together and stand up for your rights as real professionals and MOL can't do anything.

He's not exactly going to find another few hundred pilots to fly his aircraft and he ain't going to be able to take the financial pain from a fight with a union.

411A
21st Jun 2009, 20:37
He's not exactly going to find another few hundred pilots to fly his aircraft and he ain't going to be able to take the financial pain from a fight with a union.

He won't have to find a few hundred pilots...all he'll have to find is 49, just as CX did when their 'association' wanted to generate trouble.

The company has the upper hand, fact.
Companies always have the upper hand, fact.
Companies will continue to have the upper hand, fact.

I can only LOL at some of the nonsense postings here to the contrary.

A previous poster was right, BALPA looks after the older guys at BA, the younger ones are left to fend for themselves....and have the less favorable terms to prove it.:}

BitMoreRightRudder
21st Jun 2009, 21:56
Balpa protects the old boys and their final salary pensions

A complete crock of you know what. You, like so many others in your airline are finding reasons to ignore collective representation. Union membership is your only real option. Nothing to lose by joining and everything, potentially, to gain.

I don't think you get it. Your employers are trying to legitimise tearing up someone's contract because they expressed support of union membership in the workplace. And yet still you peddle bull:mad: excuses as to why BALPA won't help you.

I'd say it's your funeral, but the problem is you are dragging the rest of us down with you.

Bingaling
21st Jun 2009, 21:59
BitMoreRightRudder couldn't agree with you more.

call100
21st Jun 2009, 22:10
A previous poster was right, BALPA looks after the older guys at BA, the younger ones are left to fend for themselves....and have the less favorable terms to prove it.
Perhaps if the younger ones had the balls they could change things? The truth is they don't have the stomach to fight for anything. This is not just true of the Pilot fraternity. It is, however, the reason behind poor wages and bad working terms.

leeds 65
22nd Jun 2009, 00:17
The memos i have seen over the last week from management have been disturbing.The captain fired was used as a scapegoat and only ryanair pilots in the uk got the memo.So obviously nothing to do with safety as all ryanair pilots would have recieved the memo if that was the case.The memo was full of lies - it was about balpa not safety.

UK Base freeze again bolix.Not recession etc etc,but balpa.

Respect is needed between the pilots and management.I guarantee that the guys forced out of DUB and SNN due cuts will be told - 'we will rebase you in alicante but on 10% less,if you dont like that F off'.That is fundamentally wrong and this will continue into the future.

Respect is needed.The moral is low,and i am beginning to hate the 'them and us' attitude.Everybody knows now that the recent town hall meetings also turned out to be a bull**** fest.

Just getting fed up with the propaganda and constant bull****ting.Tedious

20driver
22nd Jun 2009, 02:17
I have no dog in the fight but the dumping on Ryanair pilots sound a lot like the way the ALPA airline pilots used to dump all over Southwest pilots.
It was only 10 years ago when the American pilot rag was full of very similar posts describing Southwest pilots as spine less scabs etc etc.
( Totally ignoring Southwest pilots were unionized)
Meanwhile Southwest stuck to making money, something no a single ALPA Airline managed to do in the last decade, and strangely enough their pilots are now the best paid 737 jocks in the patch and they continue to grow.
Ryanair makes money, very few others do. They offer a package that people show up for. Punters love them and the safety record does not scare anyone away. What you expect them do , offer more than they need to!!!
If the deal is that bad pilots will leave and the offer gets better. Pilots are not some mythical Skygods, they are an expense to be minimized, like everything else in a consumer driven company that wants to make a profit and expand.
I have no inside on BALPA but the unions I do know off always protect the seniors on the inside and sell the non voting new guys short. Don't think so, check out the new hire pay at Air Canada. That was ACPA's work.
Good luck to all.
20driver -

411A
22nd Jun 2009, 04:17
deja vu all over again

Spot on, 20driver...and in addition, a few troublemakers at an airline whip up the guys into frenzy at just the wrong time...when business is down, and thereby just invite retaliation by the company.

It never fails.:rolleyes:

The Real Slim Shady
22nd Jun 2009, 04:47
Reality check.

MOL opens a base in Wroclaw. No BALPA,cheaper handling,lower staff costs...bye bye Bournemouth...1 UK base closed.

MOL opens a base in Malaga. No BALPA,lower staff costs, lower cost of living, mass applications to work there.....adios Edinburgh. 2nd UK base closes.

MOL opens a base in .....you choose.

Don't get it do you?

Ryanair is big enough to absorb the cost of base closures in the UK and openings in Europe and to move the operation from the UK without even breaking in to a sweat. It isn't simply the jobs of pilots, engineers and cabin crew you are toying with, it is the subsidiary employment the airline creates at the 10 UK and 4 Irish bases.

If the tub thumpers are such enthusiastic supporters of unionisation and socialism, consider the wider effects of the action on members of other unions in the UK and Ireland if your campaign proves successful.

411A
22nd Jun 2009, 06:12
Don't get it do you?


Nope, they never will, no matter how long they try.
I actually feel sorry for these misguided folks.

On second thought...NO.
They are fools.

cactusbusdrvr
22nd Jun 2009, 06:26
Any time that you have labor/management arguments you will always have management taking hostages. The real trick is to make your point without putting yourself into the position of potential hostage. It sounds like this Captain, who might be the best guy ever, just put himself in the position to be kidnapped by the Taliban.

Unions result from bad management. Ryanair are in desperate need of a union.

Cows getting bigger
22nd Jun 2009, 06:26
I think some people are confusing aviation with business. MOL runs a business. His bottom line is, err, the bottom line. If he can realise efficiencies for his shareholders he will.

TheOtherGuy
22nd Jun 2009, 06:32
"Ryanair is big enough to absorb the cost of base closures in the UK and openings in Europe and to move the operation from the UK without even breaking in to a sweat."...but they do not want to nor do they have to. This is called commerce. The role of the company is to maximise returns to members and the role of management is to manage the business, not to listen to every whining ego who thinks they are an expert in every facet of running a business although they have none of the information required to make decisions and even less expertise. What do the Americans say - armchair quarterbacks?
Over time, terms of employment generally change to meet the market conditions then prevailing. At the moment, market conditions have changed so that airlines have to review those employment conditions that can produce cost savings, review staffing levels and any other relevant cost reduction. Anyone who wants to keep their conditions at the same level as when large profits where being made are too stupid to retain. Ever wonder why there are mass redundancies and people wonder whinge about the process? Because it's usually to clean out the idiots first.

In an airline market currently being experienced with falling passenger numbers and large financial losses, keeping the same operational methods is plain dumb. The fact that so many things are happening to agitate people merely means that management are managing - like they are supposed to.

What are the average working days per annum compared to the general working population? What are the annual leave entitlements compared to the general population? Perhaps the industry needs to wind some of these back.

"...and thereby just invite retaliation by the company." Absolutely. The company is more interested in its own survival than the rantings of an idiotic malcontent.

"Pilots are not some mythical Skygods, they are an expense to be minimized, like everything else in a consumer driven company that wants to make a profit and expand." More truth. Pilots are no different to any other commodity need to make the business operate. Decisions will be made about the quality/experience/training/wages/conditions etc that makes up total cost. All depends on the business model.

"Respect is needed between the pilots and management." and "Just getting fed up with the propaganda and constant bull****ting.Tedious." An oxymoron, stupid.

"The company has the upper hand, fact.
Companies always have the upper hand, fact.
Companies will continue to have the upper hand, fact." More reality.

It it's all so bad, leave. Or shut up. Who, honestly, would go on strike at the moment? Anyone who says yes is either a liar or too monumentally stupid to be in charge of an icecream, yet alone an aircraft. Try working constructively with the company to minimise the impact of any downturn rather than be a party to it's destruction.

"If the infraction was done during flight, I hope the rat bastard who did Judas act against the captain..." What the?? Do we have a close relative of Stalin writing here? Gross misconduct is gross misconduct and it is up to the individual to take action against the company if they believe it is not a valid termination. Is it a Judas act if the captain had been drinking?? Look up 'duty of fidelity' - all employees should understand what this is.

Ryanair do what they do because they can and because it works. That is reality. Don't like it? Too bad - they ain't going to change!

HundredPercentPlease
22nd Jun 2009, 07:08
It it's all so bad, leave. Or shut up. Who, honestly, would go on strike at the moment? Anyone who says yes is either a liar or too monumentally stupid to be in charge of an icecream, yet alone an aircraft. Try working constructively with the company to minimise the impact of any downturn rather than be a party to it's destruction.

...

Ryanair do what they do because they can and because it works. That is reality. Don't like it? Too bad - they ain't going to change!

TheOtherGuy,

As anyone can see from your previous posts, you are a manager (with a serious dislike for "idiot" "stupid" pilots).

A professional organisation is important for many roles where the individual has responsibility that may require a little support from time to time. In the UK it's a shame that this organisation comes under the term "union", but in many other professions it is considered vital.

I note with interest your massive contradiction quoted above. Nice management double-speak!

For the casual reader, here is TheOtherGuys management style when it comes to redundancies:

This is breathtaking in its ignorance however typical of a performance bottom dweller who uses seniority as a protection against performance management. It's lucky that spelling is not a pilot license requirement. Are you seriously wanting this forum to believe that there is a direct linear correlation between experience and merit and that there is not one pilot with less experience who is better than one with more experience? Idiot.

Pilot Pete
22nd Jun 2009, 08:01
What are the average working days per annum compared to the general working population? What are the annual leave entitlements compared to the general population? Perhaps the industry needs to wind some of these back. Niaive methinks. What has number of days got to do with anything? Consider the number of hours pilots work, and the changing roster pattern from extremely early in the morning to middle of the night (not specifically Ryanair here). Your average nine to fiver doesn't have this to deal with, their body clock never gets out of synch, most get every weekend off and all bank holidays. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy
This is breathtaking in its ignorance however typical of a performance bottom dweller who uses seniority as a protection against performance management. It's lucky that spelling is not a pilot license requirement. Are you seriously wanting this forum to believe that there is a direct linear correlation between experience and merit and that there is not one pilot with less experience who is better than one with more experience? Idiot. And you don't understand seniority. It has nothing to do with those above being better.:rolleyes:

PP

Stop Stop Stop
22nd Jun 2009, 08:29
And still no reply from Leo Hairy Camel! The sacking must have hit a nerve!

Aldente
22nd Jun 2009, 08:40
Quote from The Real Slim Shady
Reality check.

MOL opens a base in Wroclaw. No BALPA,cheaper handling,lower staff costs...bye bye Bournemouth...1 UK base closed.

Slim,

A quick look at the RYR website shows that from Bournemouth (a relatively affluent retirement area) they fly to destinations such as Carcassone, Limoges, Palma Majorca and Faro, alll favourite destinations for the "grey pound".

I can't see the attraction of "Dordogneshire" (as MOL once called it) and its culinary and cultural delights being much of a pull for your average Polish waitress or plumber somehow, do you ?

What would Ryanair do in such a scenario ? Announce to the people of Edinburgh or Bournemouth, "sorry you cant fly with Ryanair from your local airport anymore, because we're having a spat with the pilots, so we're gonna close the base down !" (presumambly leaving a vacuum for someone else to fill).

The reason Ryanair has a base at Bournemouth and Edinburgh, is because they're making MONEY

MOL is just p1ssing in the wind !!!!

Bruce Wayne
22nd Jun 2009, 09:42
And still no reply from Leo Hairy Camel! The sacking must have hit a nerve!

If the case is in litigation then he would not be able to comment on it.

Like him or loathe him, M.O.L.'s priority is the business and it's continuing viability and profitability.

Moreover, there have been a couple of questions towards BALPA asking what it is exactly it will do for it's members. So far, the silence there has been deafening.

alibaba
22nd Jun 2009, 10:42
20driver wrote:

I have no dog in the fight but the dumping on Ryanair pilots sound a lot like the way the ALPA airline pilots used to dump all over Southwest pilots.
It was only 10 years ago when the American pilot rag was full of very similar posts describing Southwest pilots as spine less scabs etc etc.
( Totally ignoring Southwest pilots were unionized)
Meanwhile Southwest stuck to making money, something no a single ALPA Airline managed to do in the last decade, and strangely enough their pilots are now the best paid 737 jocks in the patch and they continue to grow.
Ryanair makes money, very few others do. They offer a package that people show up for. Punters love them and the safety record does not scare anyone away. What you expect them do , offer more than they need to!!!


Nobody is dumping on Ryanair pilots because this is led by Ryanair pilots. The pilots in question are asking to be given the opportunity in the company to vote freely for Union Representation if they want it and to have freedom of association? Their choice either way. If you think giving someone that democratic right (that is enshrined in law) is foolish or "trouble causing" then I have to say more the fool you, for not exercising that right or recognising that employees do have it. Just as the pilots and staff at Southwest have taken that right which works in partnership with the company and SWAPA (http://www.swapa.org/). Pilots want partnership not conflict!

I find it very disappointing that posts make reference to those pilots as "trouble makers" when it is those pilots that are giving the opportunity to Ryanair pilots to collectively stick together and improve treatment of staff. Is that a bad or evil thing as some posters reference to such words as trouble makers? Which group of pilots have the whole Ryanair pilot community at heart? :confused: The pilots who want to deal collectively and stop personal intimidation as happened with the pilot in question on this thread or the one eye go getters who want only what is good for them in their own personal life and career? :confused:

I think the question is quite easy to answer when you appreciate what risks Ryanair pilots are taking with such an aggressive management to improve the collective treatment of ALL Ryanair pilots.. :ok:

How long do you want to turn a blind eye to the abuses that continue in the Ryanair work environment? Because the question has to be asked when will people acknowledge that enough is enough and people do not and will not be treated in such a manner? There is only so long that people can not answer or dodge that question because at some point we are all going to have to answer it through looking at your own feelings. Leave people to continue to be abused and to rot as in the pilot in question on this thread and has happened for the last 10 years in Ryanair (Capt J. Goss and the many more other examples to note) or treat everyone with a certain amount of respect and collectively say NO to management abuses of staff and the continual flagrance of the law and peoples well being?? :confused: It will be all of our choice when the time comes.

The people on pprune who are generally dumping on Ryanair pilots seem to be two different bodies.

1. There is a group of people pertaining to be pilots from other companies that are attacking Ryanair pilots. Many of these posters are not pilots in other companies or are a small disturbed minority because everyone I speak to in the wider industry and friends of mine who work for other companies in Europe, UK and all over the world wish Ryanair and its pilots the greatest of success but most of all think we need basic rights and to be treated properly in the work environment. So to try and link that pilots in other companies think Ryanair pilots are "scabs" is totally wrong as they do not. The majority of pilots working in other companies want the best for Ryanair pilots and actually think we are bullied, intimidated and oppressed. This type of anti RYR pilot post is not the view of the educated majority of pilots out in the industry but of the minority or even connected with something more sinister?

A good tactic for management would be to make the RYR pilot feel like they are in a community against other pilots would it not? That RYR management would want RYR pilots to feel that they have my best interests at heart and that all the other big bad pilots in other companies want RYR to fail so stick with us lads. WRONG. It shows you know nothing of the aviation piloting community as a whole or anything about the profession. The majority of pilots in other companies do not think RYR pilots are "scabs" or any other type of negative remark and it is a low tactic by management and is very easily read. Hence the messages of support on here and in the Newsletters from the many pilots in other companies that BALPA is recognised in. Pilots out in the wider community want Ryanair pilots to be able to be treated properly as do Ryanair pilots themselves.

Strangely some people are missing the whole point of why Ryanair pilots want a vote on recognition which is because we want to be treated with dignity and respect. Is that something that people whether they be pilots or not should not ask for as a basic concept of how to deal with employees? The pilots are not asking for big fat wage increases or for all the year off. Pathetic.

2. The second group are the posters that think that employees are an expense that should be minimised. A very nice touch on how you view human beings with democratic and legal rights but we will leave that to an aside.

Southwest is a success and it treats staff very well and is Unionised of its own accord with SWAPA (http://www.swapa.org/). It is an example of what can be achieved by working with employees for a long term partnership. BALPA is not a third entity but is Ryanair pilots themselves. All Ryanair pilots are asking for is to be able to work with management in partnership and to be treated properly without unilateral changes of employment contract and threats. Do you think that is too much to ask for? Both SW and RYR are lowcost and make money (except when not hedging or on ego trips) and that is about where the comparison ends. As both companies clearly have totally different theories on how to treat staff and human beings.

There is only so long you can treat people like dog dirt because it isn’t a long term future or business model for a company that is now Ryanairs size. It is short term consumerism with very large staff turnovers and is an immediate money making scam for the present Ryanair management. Long term success such as that of Southwest demonstrates that treating staff well and caring for their well being is a longer term future for growth and success.

If we want to go by the laws of economics and if Ryanair opens a base in Wroclaw do you think that permanent pilots will go out to man the base when there are floating contractors flying out of UK bases? I will let you answer that question..

It is management that is threatening pilots to stop their legal right for recognition and who are making threats to close a base. Who is to blame? The pilots for wanting to be treated better or the company for wanting total control and not working with pilots in any sort of meaningful way?

A base should be shut because of financial realities of the world we live in. If Ryanair chooses to shut a base (which they might be able to do at any time anyway) it is because the base is not financially viable or because it is not having the desired effect on competitors that it wants. In simple terms if the base isn't making money then why keep it open? It seems quite naive to say that Ryanair can't do it anyway and that is whether BALPA is recognised or not? It would be quite interesting to watch them shut the whole of the UK down though. Imagine how that would be explained to shareholders with no first wave departures from the UK and aircraft all based in Europe without any pilots to fly them.. How long would EW and DOB be in the job then?? Will Ryanair management shut a base? Possibly. Which base? Who knows? Will they shut every UK base? No.

We as in pilots are not "toying" with anybody’s job. It is the company management that are doing so as has proved with this thread by dismissing a pilot without good reason for simply being a member of a trade union and trying to stick up for fellow staff. Don't be short sighted by trying to blame people who are trying to improve conditions in Ryanair. Is it our (as in the pilots) fault when it is management who are acting in such a way?

The wider effects are understood hence why the call for partnership and not conflict. Both sides of the fence have to have realised what the effects are to themselves as people or on the company and its books and the wider economic environment. Nobody is taking extraordinary action here apart from asking to be given the right to vote freely for or against union recognition. It seems that the company is NOT willing to let pilots exercise that right freely and democratically.

Is it the pilots making unilateral actions and making THREATS or is it members of Ryanair management?

The effect of closing a base is clearly understood by all in the wider union membership and leadership across the UK and beyond. They also know what might happen because of recognition in Ryanair. The treatment of staff at Ryanair though is quite obvious to all hence why so many Ryanair threads are on this site and the discussions out in the general public at large. Do you think this is a small group of people letting off hot air? Because I think you will find it is a very large group of people with genuine grievances on how they are being treated. Everyone knows this and why Ryanair is talked about so much! ;) Staff and other union members across Europe have seen the effects of non-recognition in Ryanair and what has steadily happened to treatment of employees! :rolleyes: So your question is slightly skewed.

Continue down the path of bullying and victimisation and the lowering of terms and a short term view of running a company or make a long term change to try and achieve a working partnership for the future as Southwest pilots and many other companies around the world have achieved? That is the effect of recognition and what it can achieve! ;)

BALLSOUT
22nd Jun 2009, 11:24
For those that don't seem to understand how the company could handle closing UK bases and continue to fly from them.
There are already a number of very busy airports that are not bases, like eg BVA (Paris) many aircraft fly in and out, even through on a "W" pattern, but there in no ryanair staff employed there.
They could easily alter any UK base to operate in a similar fasion, with the exception of STN. This could however be seriously reduced in size, even crewed just with contractors. If there is a time for a union recognition battle, I don't think this is it. As I have already said, BALPA have everything to win and nothing to loose, We on the other hand, could risk loosing everything!

altogethernow
22nd Jun 2009, 11:29
I tried reading your post alibaba but you are all over the place.

Let's get back to basics:

It seems to me that Ryanair have made sham findings of gross misconduct against this captain and proceeded to unfairly dismiss him.

The sham findings appear to be discrimination against and deliberate victimisation against a respected employee with a penchant for promoting the union.

Such matters are very easily dealt with at the Employment Tribunal. The law is written for exactly this kind of stuff. I imagine that if it goes to a hearing, the Employment judge will quite quickly tire and warn Ryanair that if they persist in arguing safety in a case which plainly is about nothing of the kind, then costs will be awarded against them if they are found to be abusing the Tribunal system in the same way they abuse staff, abuse accepted disciplinary procedures and abuse the law itself.


The rest is rot and plenty of it. It's obvious pilots barely talk to each other and most just accept they are in harness during working hours like blinkered horses head down before the plough.

Not this captain though. He has his life under his own terms. A bit of a challenge at the moment, for sure. What is it you others think you have?

alibaba
22nd Jun 2009, 11:31
Just to add; Moreover, there have been a couple of questions towards BALPA asking what it is exactly it will do for it's members. So far, the silence there has been deafening.

What do you want BALPA (which is you and me as pilots by the way) to do for you? You as BALPA (http://www.balpa.org/) have already started the process for recognition so you as a collective group are actively doing something to achieve formal collective strength. All pilots in the bargaining unit will get a secret and confidential ballot to either vote for or against recognition. It's free and fair and totally confidential but not so free that management won't make threats (memo's and base meetings) and try to intimidate the pilots as has been done with this STN Captain.

Do you want BALPA to STOP Ryanair making dismissals? Do you want to STOP Ryanair management making unilateral changes to agreements and contracts? Do you want BALPA to tell you that you are going to be all ok and to sleep tight? ;)

Surely you can see that BALPA (http://www.balpa.org/) as you can not make such statements as we are not recognised and there is no formal collective strength to stop these abuses. BALPA is not a fairy god mother and the answer to all your prayers. But is the best available tool for collective strength that we have to stop abuses that will happen if BALPA or a union is not there. Unfortunately you have to rely on a court of law at the moment for these things and after the event has happened because the law is defined but to exercise the legal system you are doing so in a retrospective manner. Also BALPA can not change economic realities. In other words if a company goes bust because of a bad business model or fuel hedging or bad routes how can that be BALPA's as a unions fault?

There needs to be a bit of self responsibility on pilots as to how they stand up for their own rights. There has to be self responsibly of how terms are decreasing and who's fault that is? :ugh: Nobody is going to make the decisions for you as it is your life and democratically you have to take responsibility for your own actions as you do in all facets of life just as the company does. You have to take responsibility for yourself and by acting collectively as a group you will have strength in that ability to come to sensible resolutions with companies.

I will leave you with this question also; many pilots who have left Ryanair with disciplinary action but the management choose not to publish that on Crewdock. Why now? ;)

DFC
22nd Jun 2009, 12:34
If Unions in general are so great then please explain why UK unions oppose the mandatory implementation of the European Working Time Directive and thus force people into having to work long hours just to earn a subsistance income?

Why don't unions persue the objective of all people being paid at a rate that 40 hours per week would provide a living wage and anything more than that would be a bonus rather than the current UK situation where many workers have to work 50+ hours per week just to survive?

Or would that be in the category of - we will not press that issue because it could adversely affect a more important issue.

Unions have an agenda. Your will only get assistance with your situation for as long as it is in accordance with the overall agenda and the union will not have to give ground elsewhere on what they term more important topics.

For example, union assistance to this pilot would be heavily affected by future salary and condition negotiations with the company.

Does anyone not believe that when MOL meets the union he would not say the following;

"Ok we'll give this guy 50 grand and he will have to agree not to make any statements regarding any issue. If you press for more then we will have to look at the staffing of Bournemouth because we might be removing the BASE status."

Result = Union tell the pilot to take the 50 grand and in a later press release tell the Bournemouth pilots how through their negotiations they have received an assurance from management that ther base will not be closed.

Am I anti-union : No.

Do I have a realistic view of the various limits that unions operate under - Yes.

This link might be of interest to everyone;

crapunion.co.uk (http://www.crapunion.co.uk/)

Have a look at how the various unions in NATS have operated and changed the worker's pay and conditions over the past 10 years.

I believe that new hires at NATS are paid only a fraction of what they were paid in the 1990's.

Regards,

DFC

ssschmokin1
22nd Jun 2009, 13:56
To those calling for the BALPA game plan to be published here, and to those saying that unions have agendas.

This is not the time and the place to publish such information. Surely the time and the place is AFTER union recognition has been achieved, as then, and only then, can a proper debate take place, and Ryanair pilots can vote on what they want to pitch for in negotiations. Contrast this with the current "well lads, the company say we can have a small pay cut or a large pay cut, so we recommend that you accept the small pay cut, and BTW they want changes to this and that or it will be the loss of this or that allowance".

Any 'agenda' should be decided by the pilots themselves. BALPA has not come in to Ryanair like some white knight on a horse to slay the dragons. What has happened is that a group of Ryanair pilots have said 'enough is enough' and have launched this bid to regain a say in how the pilot body is treated by Ryanair management. They need legal protection, advice and help to do this, and this is where BALPA comes in.

Of course it is in the management's interest to try and portray BALPA as a bunch of outsiders who are interefering. This is false. BALPA is you, me, and any other pilot who has an interest in how the company moves forward. Ryanair is a very healthy company financially, even with the wholesale wasting of profits through extremely unsuccessful fuel hedging and the purchase of Aer Lingus shares. It can afford to treat its staff better. THE MANAGEMENT JUST DOESN'T WANT TO.

This is your chance to make a change. Don't waste it. Not participating in the vote is a 'no' vote, so sign the petition

https://www.balpa.org/getdoc/a98486c1-7909-4a4a-8c7f-56ad4a58cba7/RyanairPetition.aspx

and when the vote comes, make yours count and back your fellow pilots!

prunnepilot
22nd Jun 2009, 14:25
I have registered for this site because I am fed up reading misleading posts about pilot associations made by various posters. I find the idea that pilot associations are run for purposes other than looking after their members peculiar, since the majority of European pilot associations, like the one I belong to, are very small organisations. What else could they be expected to do, other than look after the interests of their members? (By small organisations I mean with as few as 1-4 full-time staff).

What else are they for than the members, and who can the mysterious people the run them actually be?

However, there is one problem, and that’s this thing called democracy. Sometimes you are on the loosing side of a vote. If you don’t like the outcome you can give out about the association and claim all sorts of nonsense about stupid leaders or idiot pilots. But what you mean is that your point of view did not carry the day. This is even more to the point for the 3 or 4 large associations in Europe, where the decisions are necessarily more complicated.

Unions do not have policies, their members do. Members create and modify policies by participating and using their votes. By the standards of big unions, even the largest pilot associations are very small. They idea that they run around for other purposes seems quite misplaced. A pilots association is just that, an ASSOCIATION. You can opt in, or you can opt out.

Pilots are naturally conservative, but even the most conservative can normally can work out the better choice between (a) being picked off one by one or (b) sticking together. So I find the idea that Ryanair pilots would be better of without union representation so nonsensical that I see no point in joining in any such argument. But I will say one thing, which is that I find it very hard to see how it could make their situation worse.

When I look at the “hobbyhorses” being pursued by those who are against pilot associations I just wonder about what motivates their desire to see Ryanair pilots without a means of defending their interests – interests that can only be decided, democratically, by those very pilots. Does those who oppose unions know better? What have they to fear from being quiet, letting the pilots organise and seeing the outcome? They don't have to join in. So why the repeated negativity? It does not ring true, or is highly patronising towards colleagues.

In fact, who has anything to fear from organised pilots, other than a management that wants to do whatever it wants, regardless of how their pilots feel?

CommandB
22nd Jun 2009, 15:15
Real Slim Shady - you hit the nail on the head with "consider the wider effects of the action on members of other unions in the UK and Ireland if your campaign proves successful"

Dont believe for one second that MOL wont close down bases in the UK -even STN if he needed too, sack or not fly pilots, 5/2 roster, send pilots away to other bases...etc - just to say "we told you we'd do it."

And even with recognition, do you really think that on that day its achieved MOL/RYR will suddenly change their tune, give everyone a massive payrise, 1st choice of base, nice paid annual leave....etc NO - it will take years of negotiation and incredibly hard times for all involved NOT just pilots. Cabin crew, engineers, ground crew and indirectly - PAX.

If there was an abundance of jobs for people to fall into then fair game, BALPA would have the majority onboard - however in the midst of a recession and severe lack of a job up the front - i very much doubt much will come from the campaign.

Call me a scab or whatever you like, i know RYR is not perfect but i enjoy flying here. Each to their own.

Whilst i very much agree with dignity and respect - this whole thing couldnt have come at a worse time imho.

al446
22nd Jun 2009, 19:16
Am I anti-union : No.

Do I have a realistic view of the various limits that unions operate under - Yes.

Could have fooled me.

Boy
22nd Jun 2009, 19:55
And he could have fooled me too!!

For a completely different contrast, see a pilot who is willing to protect his rights and entitlements and who has again taken Ryanair to court (video link): http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0622/6news_av....567028,null,230

altogethernow
22nd Jun 2009, 20:39
Boy, that link doesn't work for me ...

BEagle
22nd Jun 2009, 20:45
Whilst i very much agree with dignity and respect....

Which is more than that nasty little airline for which you fly exhibits towards its passengers.

People who travel with Ryanair are, to my mind, rather like those who buy counterfeit goods - they encourage sweat shop labour.

The Real Slim Shady
22nd Jun 2009, 20:52
There is a great deal of rhetoric being bandied around, and a not insignificant amount of hubris. The sanctification of unnamed pilots who are " willing to protect his rights and entitlements" by ventilating their sacking / dismissal in front of a Judge doesn't reflect the reality of their situations:no job, probably no income, no reference and redundancies tumbling form even the legacy carriers. Isolated from their former colleagues and probably left to fund the fight through Courts themselves.

Solicitors and barristers taking £175 + VAT for an hour's work soon sees the legal bills build up: costs at Tribunal, in England and Wales, are not normally awarded hence the award will be reduced by the cost of bringing the action which could take 2 years+ to see out.

In the meantime, a small group of very enthusiastic individuals are clamouring for union recognition with little regard for the current economic climate. They singularly fail to recognise that a commercial decision taken by Ryanair management ( however distasteful they may find it) to close a base in the UK is not illegal in any way nor could any union prevent it.

Ryanair can simply reorganise their route structure using aircraft based in Europe to fly W patterns in and out of the former UK bases, maintaining the routes but without the perceived problem of union oversight.

As to voting for something without knowing the manifesto, that surely is nothing more than downright folly: the management at FR have made it clear what their response to recognition will be. It is not, in my opinion, unreasonable to ask what lines the manifesto the protagonists propose.

If I, and many others, are to lose our 5/4 roster, a substantial amount of money, live in the shadow of having our jobs shipped across the Channel and to pay BALPA 1% of our now reduced salaries for the privilege, is it not absolutely appropriate to ask how they propose to restore the status quo, or improve it and to ask how long this will take?

Ryanair pilots represent something of a cash cow for BALPA: 2200 wallets and growing by 400+ per year, that's a substantial income stream for New Road.

So, on the one hand the pilots are all subjected to a loss of income and loss of lifestyle, yet on the other BALPA sees it's income rise.

Finally, the legal protection offered by BALPA membership at 1% per annum can be acquired commercially for around £15 per month with, unlike BALPA, a guarantee that it will be there when you need it.

And BEagle, do calm down, flying a shiny new 737NG for a shedload of money on a 5/4 roster with wrap round leave days ( take 5 days leave, get 13 days off - oh and we get paid for being on leave) is hardly sweat shop labour.

altogethernow
22nd Jun 2009, 20:52
Rather too simplistic Beagle, ... methinks you know very little of what you speak ... did you ever actually fly Ryanair?

The passengers are not mollycoddled, 'tis true; but buyers of counterfeit services? I think not. The A to B part works tremendously well. It's just the barsteward managers who need their wings clipped.

FrequentSLF
22nd Jun 2009, 21:38
BEagle

People who travel with Ryanair are, to my mind, rather like those who buy counterfeit goods - they encourage sweat shop labour.

Hmmm...next time you buy the cheapest stuff in a shop you will be encouraging sweat shop labor...make sure that you but that most expensive one with a certificate of being original!

On the other hand, AZ was not lacking Unions, at the last count there was 3 Pilots Unions...which could not even agree of what was best for their members. Here is the one million dollar question...does the Union know what is best for the members during a recession? Historically Unions have been lagging behind...this without taking anything from the great job that Union did in the past.

BALLSOUT
22nd Jun 2009, 21:39
Well put Slim.
The choice as I see it is, Keep a 5 on 4 off roster, almost two months a year leave, and over £90,000 a year.
Or
Dignity and Respect ? Maybe no job and no money, or if we are lucky 5 on 2 off, crap leave and probably a big pay cut.
Let me think for a minute!

BEagle
22nd Jun 2009, 21:45
did you ever actually fly Ryanair?

Yes I did. Once in 2002 and NEVER again. EVER!!

And that was before it was dumbed down to its present dismal standard.

Anyway, I don't wish to divert this thread. If employees wish to stand up for their rights under the bullying management style of their employer, then collective bargaining through union membership may be the only way. Whether that employer is an airline manager, a biscuit manufacturer or whatever.

Hmmm...next time you buy the cheapest stuff in a shop you will be encouraging sweat shop labor

Precisely my point. Which is why I NEVER stoop to such depths.

Airbus Girl
22nd Jun 2009, 21:54
I don't think unions are themselves a good or bad idea, its the interface with the company that can bring about a better working relationship and maybe offer other options.

Unions don't run airlines, and never will because most pilots are far too selfish - pilots almost always vote for what will benefit them rather than voting for the moral right.

Unions in airlines can work and can help relations. I worked for a major UK airline where the relationship between company and pilots had got so bad we were literally on the verge of a strike. We came back from that and these days the company and union try and work together. We recently needed to make 150 or so pilots redundant. Well, in the end all of those pilots kept their jobs. I am not saying these problems were averted only because of union recognition, but it certainly helped.

Union recognition and a successful airline are not mutually exclusive and usually it is the opposite.

Barden
22nd Jun 2009, 23:47
My word. We collectively have fallen very, very far.

It's very disappointed at the lack of self respect on show by some posters.

Flying Lawyer
23rd Jun 2009, 00:46
BEagle I don't wish to divert this thread Lobbing a grenade into discussions tends, not surprisingly, to have that effect. ;)
However, merely to redress the balance .....
Perhaps you demand higher standards than me, my old friend. I've flown Ryanair and been entirely content.
The flights arrived on time or early, with one exception beyond Ryanair's control. (The airport had been closed for an hour at my request - for good unavoidable professional reasons - so I was in no position to feel aggrieved about the delayed departure!)
Inflight service was very basic 'no frills' but, considering what the tickets cost, I didn't expect, nor feel entitled to, any frills. The cabin attendants tend to be less 'polished' than (for example) BA but, given BA cabin attendants' famously high earnings, I expect more from them.Once in 2002 and NEVER again. EVER!!Perhaps judging any airline by just one flight is rather unfair?
I've had occasional flights with (for example) both BA and Virgin when, given how little we saw of the cabin attendants after meal service and inflight sales, we might have toasted 'absent friends' - had our glasses not been empty for a couple of hours with little prospect of having them filled.

____________

From a neutral observer's perspective -

I realise it's not possible, but it would be interesting to know which contributors to this discussion actually work for Ryanair.
And whether the vitriolic and abusive comments by some here towards those who dare to disagree accurately reflects the atmosphere in discussions of the topic at work. Personal abuse is no substitute for reasoned argument.
Some contributors seem to think that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't understand the issues - on the curious, and rather arrogant, basis that if they did understand they'd agree.

.

DownIn3Green
23rd Jun 2009, 01:37
DESPEGUE...you are right...Strike NOW!!!...Ask any rEAL pilot what "one day longer than Frank" means...they will tell you it means their job, their income, their lives as they once knew it, and BTW their family, their sanity and all of their "toys" (boat, fancy cars, summer house, etc)

So long to the pension, retirement, and the long awaited "last flight" with the fire trucks spraying the water over them as they taxi in for the last time...

Yes, young boy...go on strike...have a ball, but please don't try to bring everyone else down with you...not everyone likes to drink "Cool-Aid" as much as you seem to do...

As an aside...where the heck is Charlie Bryan these days???

Oh Yeah, I remember, he lasted "One day longer than "Frank""

Aldente
23rd Jun 2009, 01:56
Slim,
nearly 2 weeks leave for 5 days annual leave plus wraparound days can now only be acheived twice per year now , thanks to our weak and spineless ERC's, who supposedly "negotiate" on our behalf. After that it's the rest of your leave in a one month block as you know.

As for those of you worrying about the threat of 5/2, don't !!! Roughly 4 years ago during the period Feb to end of March , I can clearly recall at least 3 other airlines flying for Ryanair at Stansted (Air Exel being just one) on a wet lease basis due to crews running out of hours , and this on a 5/3 roster !

The company wanted and needed 5/4 remember ?

FrequentSLF
23rd Jun 2009, 06:32
nearly 2 weeks leave for 5 days annual leave plus wraparound days can now only be acheived twice per year now , thanks to our weak and spineless ERC's, who supposedly "negotiate" on our behalf. After that it's the rest of your leave in a one month block as you know.

I believe that quite a number of professionals around the world including developed countries will be happy with such leave scheme.

Guava Tree
23rd Jun 2009, 07:21
When I joined the profession, pilots were not considered to be "workers" or for that matter "peasants", at least not in civilised countries.

Aloue
23rd Jun 2009, 07:21
FrequentSLF what is your role here?

Is it just to to justify anything that supports Ryanair? Your comment above about the manipulation of the leave system is typical. What do you know of the changes to the leave system, including the arbitrary introduction of unpaid leave? (You know what unpaid means, I trust).

I am not interested in hearing from you that you know of seasonal workers, even in developed countries, who go unpaid for more months than pilots. That is just knee-jerk justification, which can extend to justifying anything from intimidation to murder.

Indeed, why are you, a non-pilot, such a regular participant in somebody else's discussion, not as an observer but as a strong partisan of a very obvious position? Occasional comments are one thing. Being a partisian is another.

Leo Hairy-Camel
23rd Jun 2009, 07:44
Some contributors seem to think that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't understand the issues - on the curious, and rather arrogant, basis that if they did understand they'd agree.
Beautifully put, Flying Lawyer. The credo of BLAPA henchmen down the ages.
but it would be interesting to know which contributors to this discussion actually work for Ryanair.
I do. Have done for years. Love it. Am not in fear of my job, have plenty of dignity and respect, and don't spend my command time distributing leaflets encouraging Timid Gnomes Without Underpants.

I always knew BLAPA were capable of evil acts of self interest, but encouraging JA to walk the high-wire and then yanking away the net is just cruel. FOR SHAME, BLAPA, for shame.

Aloue
23rd Jun 2009, 07:57
encouraging JA to walk the high-wire and then yanking away the net is just cruel. FOR SHAME, BLAPA, for shame

Leo can you explain this statement in simple language? It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that BALPA had nothing whatsoever to do with this event. My information comes from two colleagues who personally know the pilot.

In that case your post would be intentionally misleading, in which case would it be appropriate to say FOR SHAME, LEO, for shame?

Of course, if denigrating BALPA was your real purpose (perish the thought) then you would say something like that, even if it was untrue... or would you?

I look forward to your non-reply.

the grim repa
23rd Jun 2009, 08:33
Hello Didimus,

And thank you for your warm and charming message.

It's a shame that you feel compelled to be so unpleasant toward me because, in the final analysis, I think you and I want the same thing for the airline, just by different means. As you and I both know, anyone who can achieve and maintain the requisite standard to keep a place among the Ryanair cockpit corps is a well above average operator, and that of course includes you, but your lack of experience may lend itself to a similar absence of perspective. Something I suggest you consider in the months ahead.

Whatever the reason behind your viciousness, I wish you and our airline well. Were we to know each other in person, I think we'd get on rather better than you might think.

Take care, Didimus, and all the very best to you.

Leo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the grim repa
Tic-Toc,Tic-Toc,Ha Ha Ha!!!!



A PM recently recieved from the camel.What sanctimonious horse****!Not on your nelly buddy!!!!

DFC
23rd Jun 2009, 09:03
What is this talk of "protecting your rights".

Worker's rights are covered by both the law and in Ireland a constitution that can be picked up and read by anyone.

Everything else is simply down to negotiation and agreement.


I love the comment;


something is wrong when Toronto garbage collectors make more than some commercial pilots


What is wrong with that? Who are you to say that you deserve more than another human being?

If the case is that being a garbage collector is more profitable then flying a B737 then become a garbage collector.


When I joined the profession, pilots were not considered to be "workers"


Now that is perhaps the crux of the problem.

Some people think that just because they are a pilot that they are somehow superior to the garbage collector - regardless of age, experience and qualifications.

Besides being a very arogant attitude, people have lost sight of reality.

Perhaps the garbage collector has the brains to do a job that provides the better income than flying a jet. There is no impediment to you applying for the better paid job also.

Get a reality check - Ask yourself, does the airline exist to provide you with a well paid job? or are you simply someone that the airline employs to do a job so that it can make a profit?

People reading the "vote now, ask what we will do later" should take some time to read the rules. While it is hard to get a union recognised, having that recognition taken away is a much harder thing to acheive.

-----------


And he could have fooled me too!!



Hey Boy,

You are easily fooled. I was a union rep for a number of years. I know exactly what happens when you come along with a complaint and how or if that complaint is pushed and how the outcome is always a compromise between collective objectives ( the greather good) and your personal situation.

Even you as an individual are not going to bang the table very hard with MOL about say water being avaiable in-flight if it will have an adverse effect of your pay negotiations.

The only thing that the Union will 100% back you up on is the basic rights that are laid down in law but you don't need a union to tell you those are your entitlements - you can read it for yourself.

So as I said - Not anti-union. Simply a realist who would never vote for a political party who had no idea of what they were going to do if elected.

Regards,

DFC

Bingaling
23rd Jun 2009, 09:16
Hmmmm. Collect garbage or be responsible for a few hundred lives every day?

I'd go with the garbage one if I were you. Imagine all those leaflets you could have collected when that evil, dangerous, nasty man left them in pigeon holes the other day. Heaven.....

BALLSOUT
23rd Jun 2009, 09:25
Aldente, I am sure most of us appreciate no matter what roster pattern we are on, be it 5/4 or 5/2 we can only fly the same hours. The problem for a lot of us is getting home to see the family. If you are on 5/2 with lots of sby's, this may be OK if you live near by, but if you are a commuter, it means you would have to chose "the job or the family"
I am not prepared to give up 5/4, 2 months leave, £90,000 a year, and my family, just so you can have dignity and respect.

merlinxx
23rd Jun 2009, 09:38
Rubbishing a company is OK, but rubbishing fellow professionals is rather bad form := As to the status of pilots, and their importance in the pecking order, well someone quoted YYZ garbage workers:rolleyes:

Well folks I wonder where y'all would be without the HONEY CART MAN:confused:


Answers on a single sheet of Izal please......O shinny side down;)

Guava Tree
23rd Jun 2009, 09:49
DFC says in post #144
“Besides being a very arogant attitude, people have lost sight of reality.”

I wonder if our so called “DFC” is deliberately misspelling “arrogant” as “arogant” just to provoke us.

No, maybe not ..........

OutOfRunWay
23rd Jun 2009, 10:22
I am posting from the sidelines, not being based in the UK. nevertheless, my view is this:

All you people against any form of union, saying things like: "it could'nt have come at a worst time", or "They could close UK bases, if pilots join a union", do you ever look outside your cockpit windows?

Acoording to management, times are ALWAYS at their worst, and "we" all have to "wind back a little, forego a pay rise etc...", so as the company can still make an "honest buck".

And, do any of you really believe that if you don't join a union, bases won't be closed? If it can be done cheaper elsewhere, it will be, union or no.

There is almost no detriment to being in a union, even if you only use it as place where you can get some pointers as to how you can deal with certain problems visited upon you.

Where I am, there is a pilots association. It is not really strong, but it does come in handy sometimes.

regards

Edit: lousy spelling

His dudeness
23rd Jun 2009, 10:32
The company has the upper hand, fact.
Companies always have the upper hand, fact.
Companies will continue to have the upper hand, fact.

Oh yes, dear Mr.Tristar, you are sooooo right. And when a company fails, its the fault of the workforce. Never ever management or other things.

All the goodies we enjoy today have been given to us by the companies, because they are good and we are not. They are generous and forgiving, socially thinking and are always and generally speaking the basis for the good life we live nowadays.

Michael O`Leary is the culprit of 'goodmanship'. Do as he wants and EVERYBODY will have heaven on earth.

The current crisis has been brought upon us by the evil unions and their members, that are now gracefully allowed to pay for their evil sins (bailouts) via income tax. Or unemployment.




Our ancestors must feel sick about so many brown nosers. If you want work conditions like a hundred years ago, go buy a time machine but leave me alone. If not, unions are the way to go. United we make an impact, diveded they laugh at us.

PBD 1
23rd Jun 2009, 11:06
Ballsout....Remember not just 4 months ago some of us had the CHOICE between a substantial pay cut or a pay freeze and a fiddle around with the annual leave! Don't forget the freezing of UK base transfers, the Pulling of people from command upgrade courses and our hardworking SFIs being told no with their prerequisite 3000 hrs. Don't forget the proposed £4000 upgrade fee or £500 knocked off your salary to keep your UK license. Dont get me wrong my current rosta at Ryanair is the best Ive EVER had in the industry and I generally enjoy working here HOWEVER to quote one of my colleagues recently "whats the point of being continuously threatened with a big stick if youre going to be beaten with it anyway?" Dont forget the list of proposed changes to our T&Cs still in the pipeline!! Dont forget the sector pay review by HMRC!! I hope that eating our food during the cruise as per part `A` isn't going to found to be found contravening flight safety soon or were all going to go a little hungry on our 12hr days aren't we? Dont mind doing my bit for the company but I'm sure without doubt if other crew outside RYR were to witness our crewdock or the contents of my pigeon hole it would take them two weeks to stop laughing! Anyway future is promising cant wait to witness the wide array of teddies and dummies on the bedroom floor!!

Ancient Observer
23rd Jun 2009, 11:27
I've read this thread carefully as I know a little about "Employee Relations".

I have to say that no-one who works outside MOL's version of Disneyworld can comment on what is going on. Nothing that MOL's managers do compares with how the rest of us conduct and regulate our relationships.

It would appear to me that you either like working in their world or you don't. If you do, fine, if you don't, get the hours in and keep your cv up to date.
Aviation will pick up, and job opportunities in Aviation will come back. It'll take a year or so.

Dysag
23rd Jun 2009, 11:34
If I were a hospital director and wanted to confront my top surgeons over pay, conditions or unionisation, I'd think at least twice.

MOL only needs to read pilots' postings on PPrune to know that a more divided bunch of professionals would be hard to find. He has nothing to fear.

BALLSOUT
23rd Jun 2009, 12:08
PBD1, I don't dissagree with what you say, I just dissagree that in todays economic climate it's worth risking my livelyhood over.

BALLSOUT
23rd Jun 2009, 15:20
I can look after my own long term livelyhood, it's the short term that's concerning me.

FreeBird1106
23rd Jun 2009, 15:32
Ballsout, this is the eternal question - when is a good time to stand up or to gain respect? The answer is: this has nothing to do with "when is a good time?". Sick fed up of hearing this excuse. There will never be a good time if you listen to management ! That is the only truth. And don't worry for finding an excuse for the next time around, the company will provide that for you, free of charge.

The terms and condition, if left to management, are only going to go down (look at the sector pay, the ever reducing basic pay new captains start on, total disrespect towards our leave system changing every year). This is where we need to get organised, helped by BALPA. Is it going to be simple? No. Is it going to be painless? No. But: Will it put us back on track to be respected and paid like the rest of the industry? OH YES!! If you're looking for an easy fix, that magic bullet, there ain't any. Simple. Do I wish it was easier? Yes. Tough. Management has created this situation, nobody else. Time to find our courage (BALLS) and sign the union in.

And BTW, Respect will make you feel seriously better towards your work, and that is priceless. Forgetting the way we are treated, putting that on the side, that will one day hit you back like a ton of bricks... and it will be too late. And let us not forget that our pilot stood up for what he thought was right, I pay full respect to him! What is democracy worth? No need to answer, just try dictatorship..

Again, it won't be easy but all we need to do is to confidentially tell a Committee we want to be represented, there is no need to even tell any manager your opinion or publicly defend the cause if you do not wish to do so. Just one little vote! No need to be BALPA member (although admittely it would help the cause).

albertofdz
23rd Jun 2009, 16:54
This is indeed a very serious matter.

RYR staff, and that is ALL staff, not just pilots, are constantly under supervision.

If any member of this company dares to talk about union, and these discussions end up in the wrong ears, we all know how it all ends up....., forget the work shifts, forget the pay etc, this reason alone is more than enough for the whole staff of this company to make a stand, and i meen 100% of the staff.

Apparantly RYR workers are to certain person like oranges, oranges that will be squeezed until no juice is left in them. Kind of reminds me of the black people collecting cotton in the USA (no offence please, it is a constructive comparison).

Why are some people so concerned about uniting? It is neccessary to unite, manageres need to be "educated", they need to be taught that we are human beings and that if we disagree with them, they have to listen to our thoughts, this enhances safety because it makes our workplace a happier one, it makes us want to have our company rocketing ski high...

Essentialy, what im trying to express is that im very concerned when i read peoples excuses about why uiniting is not "wsie".

Lets be realistic, is every body happy at RYR? Would someone change certain "things" ata RYR?

Getting together an showing the company that the workers are united benefits both, because form then on, company and workers can sit at the same table and NEGOTIATE. Here nothing is negotiated, what i say is law, if you dont like it the FU, theres the door.

So for those that defend that a union is not needed, please, think it over, you are not being truthful with yourself, and let me add something, the more powerful this company becomes, the less powerful the workers, until eventually we will feel our head between the tarmac and somebodies opresing boot. This may sound like some crazy propaganda, but, think it over, maybe its not such a foolish thought.

For those who think unions are only designed to milk the company and benefit the workers, let me tell you, i used to think the same, but now i know for sure that i was completely mistaken. We are vulnerable and fragile against RYR managing staff.

I dont want anything in particular, just to have a proper defense against abuse.

I think we all do, but some of us are affraid, and disguise this with excuses as to why uniting is not a good idea. In order to be free, we MUST all be together, ALL on the same boat.

Last of all, just incase anybody feels like calling me a terrorist, maybe you are on the wrong forum, this is a pilots forum were we try to make each one and others life better.

Remember, this is not about milking the company, because it feeds many of us, its about having the chance to be heard and respected and treated as deserved not as desired.

Sorry for writting such a long thread, and about any possible spelling/gramatical mistakes. This is not my mother language.

Clandestino
23rd Jun 2009, 17:20
Some people think that just because they are a pilot that they are somehow superior to the garbage collector - regardless of age, experience and qualifications.

It was not about the value but rather about pay. The theory has it that people are not paid according to their intrinsic value but accordingly to the value of their work. This has some interesting implications to comparison between Toronto garbage disposal tehnicians / airline pilots. Not to mention the income of certain Richard S. Fuld.

Now back to the thread: if we have some insiders here, I'd like to know a) how did the RYR MGT find out about "subversive" activity during the flight b) in what airspace did the "un-company" behaviour occur?

BALLSOUT
23rd Jun 2009, 17:29
United! How many united pilots are out of work just now? How many united pilots are facing redundancy just now? How many united pilots are being asked to work a month for nothing just now? This is not the time for staff to take management on, especialy not Ryanair management. If anyone with an ounce of sence wants to have this fight, they will chose to do it when other companies are on the up.
For those that loose their jobs through this, what companies are recruiting just now? What companies are recruiting direct entry Captains just now? Where do they expect to get the money to pay the bills?
United, Dignity and Respect don't pay the bills. Get real, if you must pick a fight, pick it where and when you have a chance of winning!

merlinxx
23rd Jun 2009, 18:15
MoL is a gob****e, I agree with you folks, but can you not get bloody organised ? This has been going on for sooo long, I doubt it will ever be resolved, you lot just cannot get unified/agree on a method of progres.

No I'm not with the company, just happen to know it from TR's start.

I'll say no more I now I feel like saying stuff I shouldn't:mad::=

albertofdz
23rd Jun 2009, 23:04
BALLSOUT, I understand your concern and it is clear that talking about unity makes you feel frightend, mainly due to the fact that you believe this may cause you to loose your job. However, if everybody was together in this fight (as you stated) then there would be no space for abusive managers.

Another uncomfortable truth is that, if a serious union was to be created within RYR, people like yourself would benefit from a battle that you chose to escape from, mainly due to unrealistic worries, and this is not fare. By unrealistic worries i mean that you would not be sacked if everybody was together in this.

Would you resign to a better situation in your company if these benefits were now yours thanks to all those who made a stand against the companies abusive ways? The answer is no, no you woud'nt. Therefore, insted of being so negative and talking about: United, Dignity and Respect dont pay the bills. get real etc etc. Its time for everybody to face the facts and make a decision, do we surender or do we simply demand our rights via a negotiating team, ie, Union...?

I agree with you in that many united pilots are asked to fly free, buts thats not our case is it? This company continues to grow and is very strong. So that excuse, im affraid, is just that, an excuse.

You wrote "If anyone with an ounce of sence wants to have this fight, they will chose to do it when other companies are on the up." To this i answer, if anyone has an ounce of sence, this fight will be taken on roight know, before this massive company turns into an empire, then it will be too late, and clever sentences like that will make us all very happy...... or miserable.

Stop looking for excuses, this is not about outwitting others in this forum, its about making a move before its too late.

DFC
23rd Jun 2009, 23:09
Clandestino,

Good point.

Perhaps the whole world should "unite" and then everyone can be paid the same as a Toronto garbage collector.

However, the point I made earlier was simply if you are in it for the money then it makes sense to do the job that pays most.

If you are in it for the "status" then you were born 50 years late.

If you are in it for the flying - hey you are flying and (for the most part) you don't have to pay for it.
---------

Ballsout,


United, Dignity and Respect don't pay the bills. Get real, if you must pick a fight, pick it where and when you have a chance of winning!


Very good point also. If you are facing having nothing more than Dignity and Respect to pay the bills, any Union representing you will not pick a fight that it does not think it can win or that will cause greather losses elsewhere.

---------

PBD 1,

You say that you loose 500 because you insist on keeping your UK licence. Since country of licence issue makes no difference under JAR-FCL, why do you insist on having "UK CAA" on your licence and not "IAA". I can't see any reason.

Regards,

DFC

Bronx
24th Jun 2009, 05:31
Vexed says With all due respect to all posters, this thread has gone waaaaaay off topic. It was originally about the Cpt who got fired in Ryr. Ain't that the truth. :ok:He deliberately was a model pilot, ironically because he felt it protected him from being sackedI've been waiting to see if any poster says the captain was FALSELY accused of encouraging Cabin Crew to join the T&G union and distributing membership forms in the company's time and on the flight deck and nobody has so far.
If it's true, surely he must have realized he was taking a big risk doing that on the flight deck and in the company's time?

If anyone's likely to know, it's The Grim Repa whose made 500 posts every one attacking Ryanair management. The Grim Repa posted the company's letter and added "any letter from ryanair management can contain elements of complete untruth" but he doesn't claim the captain was not doing the above.
I could understand handing out BALPA forms to pilots, but what was he doing handing out union forms to Cabin Crew? :confused:

Some here say the F/A who reported him was a Judas and a rat. Nobody likes folk who run off getting other people into trouble with management but to be fair we don't know what form the captain's "encouraging" took. Maybe the captain was abusing his position by putting pressure on staff lower down the food chain?
Maybe he wasn;t but I'm wondering because some of the pro union posters on this thread who spout off about freedom dignity respect etc dont show any respect to colleagues who don't agree with them and are very offensive about them. Claiming to believe in dignity and respect and freedom of thought is hypocritical if it only applies to people who think the same way as you. :rolleyes:

Aldente
24th Jun 2009, 07:09
You say that you loose 500 because you insist on keeping your UK licence. Since country of licence issue makes no difference under JAR-FCL, why do you insist on having "UK CAA" on your licence and not "IAA". I can't see any reason.

Regards,

DFC

Maybe, like me, he has a UK CAA ATPL with 4 years left to run before it expires and yet I am told by Ryanair that I must have an Irish licence by the end of October 2009 or pay 500 euros.

It's not a TV licence and there's no refund for any unused portions I'm afraid !

Maybe now you can see a "reason" ......


:ugh:

the grim repa
24th Jun 2009, 08:18
Bronx - whether this captain was promoting unions through speech or literature is immaterial.There was no disciplinary procedure pursued.Does this mean that if in using your human right to free speech,if you mention the word "union" during your working day it is gross misconduct.Knowing the captain involved,i am 100% sure that any advice was given out of concern only.
When you look at this incident in the light of ryanair managements previous history of industrial relations,they are once again following a method they have used before.They will attempt to intimidate the pilot group through memos and then tell all that there will be huge reprecussions if union recognition is accepted.Then they will pick an "example pilot",fire him without due process and take the hit in court.this sends out a message to other pilots,"we will fire you if you pursue the union route".this is not the first time that it has happened.

would he have been fired for promoting a "ANTI-union" stance,if this stance was consrued to affect safety?Me Thinks NOT!!!

Bronx
24th Jun 2009, 12:09
grim repa

I was responding to Vexed's point that the captain was always careful not to do anything that might get him fired. I'm not sure what someone does in company time is immaterial but it's clearly not immaterial to this company which apparently "cares very little for the welbeing of its employees."
Does this mean that if in using your human right to free speech,if you mention the word "union" during your working day it is gross misconduct.Of course not. Are you now saying all the captain did was happen to use the word 'union' during his working day? :confused:

Superpilot
24th Jun 2009, 12:46
There was no disciplinary procedure pursued

And there's the rub.

This is going to be one big victory for the pilot concerned. You can't fire a permenant member of staff like that without suspending them pending an investigation first. I can smell victory already!

Brookmans Park
24th Jun 2009, 14:33
This is NOT the first pilot Ryan has fired. They got rid of an IALPA activist around 8 years ago by trumping up a charge that he refused to position on the flight deck on a full flight. THere are also several others

d71146
24th Jun 2009, 15:29
Is it my computer I wonder or LHCs post done a runner ?

eagerbeaver1
24th Jun 2009, 15:52
What about the people who are anti-union and discuss/force their opinion on someone? Is that not exactly the same thing? I have had people bending my ear many times, I just ignore it.

All a little hypocritical, I would prefer to hear both sides and make my own mind up.

Wacked
24th Jun 2009, 17:18
This is going to be one big victory for the pilot concerned

This will not be a big victory for the pilot. Taking a company to court is a long and painful process with managment defaming you to the press and lying on the witness stand. It will put huge strain on his family and if its an Irish court you might get two years salary at the end of it. I think he should have gotten an immediate injunction preventing the company from firing him. I assume Balpa are helping the individual, it will be a judge of their commitment.


I wish him the best of luck.

cockney steve
24th Jun 2009, 18:47
Dear, dear. As SLF, I have no dog in the fight......but why the hell should there be a fight anyway?

RYR staff appeared efficient, professional and hardworking,-at least, those facing the public did.

Huge sums are gambled on setting up bases,aircraft and infrastructure and staffing them.- Persons risking their cash, rightly demand a return on their investment.

All you malcontents should put your spare cash into Ryanair.

You will then have voting rights.
You will also become a greedy shareholder.
The more money the airline makes, the more you make.

The records of failed airlines seem to indicate that management who can actually make these undertakings prosper, are few and far between. Therefore, MOL is worth his pay, as his management, however controversial and distasteful, keeps the airline in business and allows it to expand and weather recessions like the present one.

Whilst many are disparaging about the lower strata of humanity that choose to fly RYR, you must remember that these punters are added business and profit.....or would you like to go back to the old days when only around 5% of the population could afford to fly on a passenger flight.

Price out the proles, get rid of all the surplus aircraft , crew and facilities and then you can (well, the remainder can,) be one of the elite in an elitist environment.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, we content ourselves with a Ford, but look enviously at the Rolls and Ferrari owners.

Too many people want to be an airline pilot,-face facts, there's an oversupply. That drives down terms and conditions and helps make mass travel affordable....Eventually a balance will be achieved,as with every other occupation......as has already been hinted, -if you're willing to shovel ****, tampons,condoms and other unpleasant, malodorous effluent for a living (and, yes, it does get to that, occasionally) the pay's great, the pension good, the shifts easy and home every night.

But you prefer to tell people you're a pilot /airline worker/whatever.

Sewage operative doesn't have the same ring, does it? :hmm:

(actually they're "waste-water treatment operatives" )

Join a union , yes! but don't fight management for short-term greed.....you BOTH have the same objective.

Happy customers will return ,high utilisation will give a decent profit, fleet replacements will be affordable and staff will get a fair reward for their endeavours.

Like it or not, RYR is a cheap, no-frills ,mass transport carrier....up the prices to cover what staff think they deserve, and the market will vanish....then you're ALL out of a job.

USE A UNION TO NEGOTIATE BUT DON'T KILL THE GOLDEN GOOSE.

al446
24th Jun 2009, 19:53
Also as SLF but as a trade unionist, I agree with you. Nobody is looking to kill any goose, as far as I can see, merely to exercise their lawful right to have their union recognised. I don't see what is wrong with that.

HHowever, I do see something wrong with RYR acting in what seems to me to be an unlawful manner in sacking someone without going through due process, or so it would seem.

When this case goes through court, as I think it will, and pilot is awarded however much, plus costs, as I think he will going by the scant knowledge put before us, then that will come out of profits. Not a good way to run a business. A recognised union may have saved that pot of cash for them by negotiation.

As for putting cash into RYR, didn't MOL flog off some shares not long ago? Hardly the greatest of confidence.

DownIn3Green
24th Jun 2009, 20:04
Doesn't anyone realize that the economy is in the toilet???

You can't get blood out of a turnip, especially if that turnip doesn't want to give it...

I don't know Ryanair or it's culture, but I do know the airline biz...

For every malcontent pilot out there, there are 5 or more "can-do" pilots dying to sit in that seat...

As a Typed Rated 737 Capt with significant hrs in type and seat....I'd be one of them...if I could get my medical back....

Dysag
24th Jun 2009, 20:12
I agree with a lot you say, but I'll still add my two cents worth.

Most pilots have zero understanding of management. They may have done CRM training, but beyond that they don't have a clue.

Faced with business people who manage the company day to day to keep it afloat, they're like lambs to the slaughter.

Guys & gals, you're good at your job but hopelessly outclassed as negotiators.

Barden
24th Jun 2009, 20:35
Guys & gals, you're good at your job but hopelessly outclassed as negotiators. We can argue about the thrust of your statement, but I simply can't be bothered. Anyway, unions such as BALPA employ full time, professional negotiators (Principle Negotiator - PN), who really do know their stuff and are probably far more experienced that most employers when it comes to bargaining.

A trade union's power of persuasion comes from it's membership density, that power is channelled through the reps, who are guided by the PN.

FrequentSLF
24th Jun 2009, 20:39
employ full time, professional negotiators (Principle Negotiator - PN),

Which are the only ones that are not affected by the outcome of the negotiation, without saying about about the existing worldwide financial situation....

Barden
24th Jun 2009, 20:52
Quite to the contrary. A PN's future career prospects are predicated on results.

manrow
24th Jun 2009, 20:52
Regret to say that I haven't found a good BALPA negotiator yet?

Barden
24th Jun 2009, 21:07
manrow, suggest you speak to the junior Thomsonfly pilots who are still in a job.

DownIn3Green
25th Jun 2009, 03:24
Vexed...Mar 3, 1989...94% of the EAL pilot group would NOT support the IAM Strike...Mar 4, 1989...different story...jets grounded, people out of work, commuter pilots (i.e. "Eastern Express" folks and their families)...local businesses (layover hotacs, bars, resturants, taxi cab drivers, etc), suffered MAJOR loss of business (read=revenue)...

I repeat...1989 was then...2009 is now...back then we thought "Frank" couldn't live without us...Now 20 years later, it seems to me that MOL can very clearly live without you...

Supply and demand old chap...

Pilot Pete
25th Jun 2009, 09:07
it seems to me that MOL can very clearly live without you...

Any one individual, undoubtably yes.
Any ten indivduals, certainly yes.
Any hundred indivduals, yes, they could do it.
Any thousand? A bit tricky I'd say.

PP

cockney steve
25th Jun 2009, 09:30
Supply and demand old chap...
And this is why Aircrew have to negotiate for better terms.

MOL is in charge of the cake...you get a slice, as do suppliers,financiers,airport operators groundstaff etc.
If you want a bigger share of the crumbs, MOL will want to see a benefit

-to the business.....bolshie agressive dick-swinging on either side will promote the present situation.

Until Joe Public realises that Aviation is just a glamorous bus/train/coach/ferry
-type operation, he'll continue to spend vast sums with Training -organisations.

They will take the cash and sucker the next batch of wannabe's ....sell the dream, the illusion that the Pilot -life is frozen in the late 50's.

Your crocodile-tears will never be taken seriously until T & C's match the aspirations of the target workforce......a pilot-shortage will drive up T & C 's.....but there ain't a shortage and the situation will not change for a couple of years.-there's still a vast number of newbies, fresh out of flight -school to be absorbed yet,and that's before the trainers ramp-up their ops.

sorry, off-track again.:O Given the apparent hostility between RYR management and crew, it seems a very foolish move to carry out the alleged activities in the alleged manner.......If enough people want change, they can join the Union.- once critical -mass is achieved, management has no alternative than to acknowledge them. Any management ignoring the wishes of the majority of it's workforce, is doomed. (look to the recent Formula 1 debacle, for inspiration.

I have never ever belonged to a Union,but I acept they have their place. I think the RYR culture is a bit like that of "Animal Farm", in that there have been few, if any, checks and balances to the management's streamlining of costs and raising of revenues....

If you're unhappy, but don't want to pay Union -dues -Then find better employment elsewhere.....No jobs?.......welcome to the real world,-tailor your expectations accordingly.

DFC
25th Jun 2009, 12:30
Seems that some posts from a number of contributors are being deleted.

Seems that BALPA members are all for free speech except when it does not agree with their current agenda.

:rolleyes:

Never let the truth get in the way of an agenda!!

Regards,

DFC

Jim Croche
25th Jun 2009, 23:22
Brookman's Park,

The pilot in question who was summarily sacked was Martin Duffy, Chairman of the Ryanair IALPA group. A fine pilot and a gentleman who was lost to aviation as a result. The spineless FR pilots (in DUB)whinged about it but did nothing.

He was followed about a week later by the Chief Pilot's daughter. And the CP himself 'resigned' not too long afterwards.

That's how you sort out them pesky pilots. Chop off the top and the rest are like headless chickens.

Wasn't it Richard Nixon who said "I always found that when I had them by the balls, their heart and minds followed."

At least JG still has balls - but watch out John, they'll get you eventually.