Jetstar does it again!

[Ken Borough]

Once again, customer service and customer care appear to go out the window. Even if this story is half true, I am sure that any of Australia's state-run railways or buses could have done better than Jetstar - and that is saying something!

What an appalling rabble is this mob? Don't worry about the customer is the motto as we must look after ourselves is the message from their spin-doctor.



Passengers on eight-hour SYD-MEL flight left waiting again


Article from: http://www.news.com.au/images/sources/h14_heraldsun.gif (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/)


Patrick Horan


June 18, 2009 10:09am


YESTERDAY, it took them eight hours to fly to Melbourne from Sydney ... and this morning, the travel nightmare continued.
After their bizarre diversion to Brisbane yesterday, around a dozen passengers were again left waiting for a seat to return to Sydney this morning.

Booked on a 6.10am flight from Avalon - scheduled to arrive in Sydney at 7.30am - Jeffrey Waters is still in Melbourne and is unlikely to see Sydney before noon.

"I've had quite an eventful trip," Mr Waters said this morning.

Mr Waters said passengers were boarded onto this morning's flight at Avalon before being told to disembark due to foggy conditions.

After being left in a lounge for an estimated 45 minutes, passengers were informed the flight had been cancelled and they would be bussed to Tullamarine.

"We were told we were booked on a Qantas flight to Sydney at 9.30am," Mr Waters said.

"I went to ask at the desk and they said 'we know nothing about you'."

Eventually, Mr Waters was booked onto a 10.30am flight to Sydney, with an estimated arrival time close to noon, more than four hours after his scheduled arrival time.

He said there was around a dozen "familiar faces" in a similar predicament, who had also spent eight hours getting from Sydney to Melbourne for last night's Australia v Japan match at the MCG.

"I came down for the game, I might think twice about coming down again," he said.
"I just hope there was no FIFA officials on the flight."

Yesterday's routine Sydney to Melbourne flight turned into an eight-hour, 3700km journey for about 130 Jetstar passengers.

Avalon bound flight JQ603 was due to arrive in Melbourne about 8.30am yesterday, but because of heavy fog the plane was diverted 1400km north to Brisbane.

It arrived there at 11.15am and did not depart until 1.15pm, finally reaching Avalon at 3.30pm.

All but 18 of the passengers, many travelling south to watch tonight's Socceroos match, had to sit in the A320 Airbus for more than eight hours.

Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said thick fog meant the pilot could not land at Tullamarine or Avalon, and after circling for an hour the aircraft was ordered to Brisbane.

"It's quite unprecedented circumstances where both airports were fogged out," Mr Westaway said.

He said the decision to fly to Brisbane was to try to get that aircraft back on track, as it was scheduled to fly to Brisbane after its planned Melbourne landing.

"It was going to go Sydney-Avalon then Avalon-Brisbane.

"So what we've done is isolated the issue on to the one aircraft line."

Sydney couple Maureen and John Hildred, on their way to watch the World Cup match at the MCG, said passengers were grumbling when they were told they would be heading to Brisbane, and then were not allowed off the plane.

"We could have flown to Singapore in the same amount of time," Ms Hildred said. "And we were only given a roll and drink as compensation."

Ian Donaghy and his father Keith were also headed to the match.

Mr Donaghy said they were not happy, but were just glad to have arrived.

"It would have been quicker to drive," Mr Donaghy said.

About 18 passengers are believed to have disembarked in Brisbane after its arrival there at 11.15am and caught flights back to Sydney, abandoning their Melbourne trips.

[Mr. Hat]

Ultra LCC's: You get what you pay for. People want fares at these levels then the money has to come from somewhere.

It might be high time to get some CAT 3 a/b/c for cities like Sydney and Melbourne or are we going to continue with ndb's and cat 1 ils'. Yes I know its in the pipeline but geez its nearly 2010 you know!

[Kangaroo Court]

What's the lowest Decision Heights for Cat I and visibility in Australia? Is it 200'DH and 600 metres?

[OneDotLow]

"I just hope there was no FIFA officials on the flight."

Haha. Like they would be flying Jetstar anyway....

[tipsy2]

Apparently fog only affects Jetstar!

Fog would never upset the operations of those paragons of aviation excellence at Tiger, QANTAS or Virgin now would it.

I realise Jetstar is a soft target because it is so different to what some have been used to, Golden Whingers Clubs and the like, but the world has ( and continues to) change since the cosy 2 Airline Policy was abandoned nearly 20 years ago.

Everyone thinks they can run an airline better than those actually doing so apparently.

Whilst one regrets the inconvenience passengers sometimes experience, the alternative to diverting because of in this case, fog, is to continue the approach and potentially splatter everybody across the landscape. That's a really good alternative, yes!

tipsy

[Thumbs up]

Ken ....are you a pilot.?... are you CC.?.... are you Ops?.

Do have anything to do with the aviation industry at all ?.

AV fogged in and Mr Waters arrived in SYD 4 hours late after being bused to Tulla and put on Qantas !.

I would say thats a reasonable recovery program and they deserve a pat on the back.

Just lucky (or unlucky ) Tulla wasn't fogged in as well then Patric Horan could have written about everyone there being put out , at the fault of all the airlines no less.

I wounder if Tulla had of been fogged in and AV was clear if a story titled
"Jetstar Saved The Day " would have appeared as everyone was bused from fog sticken Tulla to AV.

Must have been a slow news day for the Herald.

I suggest to you Ken if you never want to have your air travel disrupted by Fog ,then you should catch the bus or train .

[Mstr Caution]

Whilst one regrets the inconvenience passengers sometimes experience, the alternative to diverting because of in this case, fog, is to continue the approach and potentially splatter everybody across the landscape. That's a really good alternative, yes!


It came close to that on 21st July 2007 at Tullamarine Tipsy. :ooh:

[Van Gough]

or are we going to continue with ndb's

Steady on mate..NDB approaches work fine in Tiger Moths and DC3s. God forbid we should ever get rid of them:cool:

[Mstr Caution]

Just lucky (or unlucky ) Tulla wasn't fogged in as well then Patric Horan could have written about everyone there being put out , at the fault of all the airlines no less.

Mr Westaway says it was.

"It's quite unprecedented circumstances where both airports were fogged out," Mr Westaway said.

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

What a sook!

Makes perfect sense to me bus people to Tulla.

Makes perfect sense to me that if ML and SY are both foggy that they go to AD or CB or BN. and given that the aircraft had to end up BN you only have 2flights disrupted and not several!

They should make a training DVD to show passengers just what goes on behind the scenes of an airline. They shouldn't be allowed to board an aircraft untill they have watched it ! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Nunc]

Iron Maiden, they should also show that DVD to management.

[inandout]

Hell what is JS meant to do , it's called FOG. Bloodly pax get a life. Would be nice to have CAT 2 at SY, ML, BN , CB., but its all about cost.
Cat 1 is 800m in AUS.

[fritzandsauce]

I don't think fog is the issue, its the fact customer service telling you you're on an alternative flight and they have fixed everything for you when infact they haven't

[framer]

Fritz, thats due to the low ticket cost as well.
If we didn't pay these front line staff the minimum wage working crap rosters with not enough colleagues to get the job done properly, then they would offer better customer service.It's human nature. But we don't, because the dollar wins out and the LCC model works. Simple.

[Tassie Devil]

So you got Qantas (under staffed) who are dealing with their own pax's, (who are the premium customer) and then all these extra pax's appear, already p****d off from an airline that is slowly taking away your conditions of service then finally your job and people wonder why customer service is crap!

[Mstr Caution]

Your spot on Tassie Devil.

I believe the new check-in system would automatically be offloading lower yield, lower priority, non premium customers to later flights whilst looking after the higher yield, higher priority passengers first.

Does Mr Waters really believe he could bump a full fare passenger with a different airline with his $69 J* fare.

[Mr. Hat]

Cat 1 rvr 550m / 800m
Cat 2 rvr 350m
Cat 3a rvr 200m
Cat 3b rvr 50m

And yes what Airline you fly can make a difference. Some of the QF aircraft (73-800) with HUD's are on the aerobridge/bay reading the fin review whilst others are in a holding pattern or diverting.

As for passenger experience then if you buy a 5 dollar ticket with tiger/airasia/jetstar and expect things to go smoothly 100% of the time then you are living in a very strange reality. You get what you pay for and that can include better equipment up front.

Bit tired of hearing excuses about the cost of a decent ils at either one of the main international airports in Australia. Are we in Africa here?

[Artificial Horizon]

As someone who has just converted to an OZ ATPL I must admit more than a bit of shock when I discovered that there are no CAT III approaches in Oz. This really is a 3rd world situation. Even most airports in Eastern Europe that I have visited have atleast a CAT II. In this day and age to have severe delays due to fog with a RVR greater than 300m is a disgrace:ugh:

[neville_nobody]

I think the issue is more the amount of money spent for the amount of used it would get. How many days a year would SY BN and ML get fogged and closed to all departures and arrivals. I think you would have a hard time justifying a Cat 3 in BN and SY for maybe 1-2 days a year. ML will have a CAT III running one day but will the domestic operators be prepared to pay for the extra training and recurrency? I agree that for such international airports they should have CAT III but who is willing to spend the money?

[A Comfy Chair]

I am fully aware of the effects of fog, but the part I don't really like very much is the fact that the flight the day before left SYDNEY for MELBOURNE when Melbourne was fogged in with only one hour's hold fuel before diverting to BRISBANE. Why would you depart Sydney with Avalon fogged in with no prospect of improving?

The decision was because that was where the flight was next operating to.

When you have a passenger load, your responsibility is to those passengers and how they can be best accomodated in terms of future flights... to fly them to Brisbane instead of Hobart, Launny, Adelaide or Sydney where they would have had a faster turn around and return flight in order to keep the next flight on track is very strange. Even stranger is only having an hour's hold before having to divert in the domestic environment... this isn't longhaul flying.

As to CAT III... it has been promised for Melbourne for this winter, and as you can see the works have certainly been commenced... new stop bars, holding points, and the new ILS a year or so ago. The AIP now includes the Low Vis information, so it is clearly coming... just have to wait and see how long.

It is the airport operator's responsibility to provide these services, and as part of operating an airport they should be required to provide those approaches, especially MEL and SYD.

[patienceboy]

If passengers want a spare aircraft and crew on airport standby at every port they will have to pay a damned sight more than $50 for their ticket.

There are so many external influences we have no control over in aviation that other transport industries don’t have to worry about. (Weather, security, airport congestion, missing passengers, crewing issues, etc, etc, etc).

I think that most front line airline employees in Aust deserve a pat on the back for the reliability and on-time performance that they provide in such a difficult environment. So many people are doing such a good job to provide such a cheap, safe and reliable service to the traveling public with what they have to work with.

I would personally MUCH prefer to see fares increased, with better equipment, conditions and customer service – but this is what the traveling public has asked for. If they don’t like it, they should pay the extra to travel with and support a full service airline or soon enough they will be extinct or offer little to no service too. Q aren’t giving routes to J* for the fun of it.

I say well done to those involved in getting everyone to where they needed to be under the difficult circumstances. :ok:

[teresa green]

Still use a NDB going into Coolie in crook WX, dontcha!!!

[Worrals in the wilds]

ACC,
IIRC Airservices Australia is responsible for providing and upgrading navaids and ILS, not the individual airports. Some airports are responsible for airfield lighting.

Airservices Australia - Projects & Services - Services & Facilities - Airside Systems and Facilities (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projectsservices/services/airsidesys/default.asp)

[Mr. Hat]

You fly LCC you take the risk of a run around thats all there is to it. There is a chance of cancellations and all sorts of other things.

You don't get something for nothing. Its cheap for a reason. The resources are less and that comes at cost sometimes.

For me personally I wouldn't fly with either Tiger or Jetstar as its just all too hard with all the hidden costs, run arounds, games and carry on. I want to go from A to B I'll pay the extra money over at QF or VB to avoid the bull****.

1-2 days a year.

In this country we make excuses for substandard infrastucture and pathetic service. We happily sit and cop it on the chin when 50 cents in the dollar is lifted from our pay and get nothing in return.

What is the reality?

Sydney:

Major International Airport
Population 4 million
CAT 1 ILS.


Come on. People are flying in from all over the world 10-16 hrs and we have a DH of 200 and 0.8k. Get real.

This really is a 3rd world situation Spot on, its like living in Africa sometimes.

[clark y]

It was only about 12 months ago that QF had a classic take 13 hours to go from YPPH-YMML via YPAD due fog in Melbourne. These events can happen to any one. Maybe we need to start a longest journey/ least direct routing thread(keep it clean) as opposed to the nothing unusual happened today thread.

Clark y.

[Capt Fathom]

RWY 34L/R at SYD doesn't have Cat 1 (no approach lights!) :rolleyes:

Cat 3 would fix that problem though!

[psycho joe]

It seems to me that a real first world country would have introduced a high speed train between capitals on the east coast, making these city hopping airlines irrelevant.

As a matter of interest I'd love to know how far a high speed train could get from Syd to Mel in the time it takes for a jet to push back, get a word in edgewise, get a clearance, taxy to 34R, wait for a 50 mile gap between landing aircraft, take off and procede to fly half way to wellington at 5000' on the Marub 3. :ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

We don't want to know the answer to that question.

All the aviation ring-ins to our have added so many layers of bull**** to our job that it simply couldn't compete over a short distance.

[Pedota]

My wife and I are long term and frequent QF customers. My FF number is so low that QF staff still comment about it and my wife retains her ‘gold’ status.

Last week we needed to go to Perth and we chose Tiger based entirely on price - less than $400 total (not each). It even wasn’t worth using points at that price.

A sample of one does not make a case about anything, but I think the industry’s business model is in the process of changing forever.

And I can report that the whole Tiger customer ‘experience’ was fine . . . easy to use internet ticket purchase; capable and helpful check in staff; brand new A320; hard working and competent cabin crew; great flying and airmanship; and quick baggage retrieval.

There was a minor delay on one sector but the staff provided accurate and timely information – we were all kept in the picture and they worked double speed to turn the aircraft around in minimal time.

We took our own food . . . but frankly airline food is rarely worth eating at any time. And of course our Qantas Club cards were left unused.

We have used airlines like Ryan Air and EasyJet in the UK and Europe and have been very pleased. Sure, you get the occasional delay – but you also get those on High Cost Carriers.

I will select the lowest fare that fits my schedule . . . pretty much like anything else that I buy . . . as there seems little point in paying more for essentially the same thing.

Cheers

Pedota

[breakfastburrito]

Pedota, much of what you say is valid, however, perhaps there are some other things that lurk beneath the surface in the LCC vs Full Service argument.
Things that I believe many people will find optional, and are prepared to do without or purchase as an add-on.
* Food
* Beverages
* Baggage allowance
* Longer checking times

The dark underbelly appears when things don't always go as planned, these pages are detail some of the LCC model weaknesses:
* Fine print
* Delay handling & rebooking
* No spare aircraft capacity to cover WX/mechanical delays.
* lack of overnight accommodation in case of WX diversions (Being tossed out of the terminal at 11pm in Sydney without accommodation)
* Baggage allowance policy, being slammed at check-in for mega $$ for additional baggage above allowance, see fine print.
* Inflexibility for missed flight, change travel times.
* Flights cancelled & being rebooked on alternative dates & times that often negate the reason to travel (special events short trips)

LCC's derive much of the cost control from a much smaller, rigid business model, revolving around maximising aircraft utilization, maximising revenue from pax mistakes/inability to read fine print. Further, time sensitivity is not an issue. The pax bears more risk, in return for a lower price.
That is not to say that there is no place for the LCC model, it is a question of trading cost for flexibility & bearing risk. The downside of the Full Service model is price, it is a more complex business.

I wonder if you would have had the same comment had you missed a special event or short prepaid holiday due to some of the LCC model limitations?

[Mr. Hat]

cost of a CAT III ILS would be vs the economic impact

50 cents in the dollar means i expect it in at least one of the major capital cities. (time to lower my expectations)

I think the high speed train will get here first though!

LCC - the hidden fine print and the way things go when things don't go to plan.

[-438]

Breakfastburrito, don't forget the fact that some LCC's even have pilots paying to be upfront or flying for free. All in the name of low hour pilots gaining some experience (and the airline saving a few dollars.)

Accidents do happen as a result of poor training/cultures, just look at what happened to a Turkish Airlines 737 recently.

There is more to low fares than just missing out on a free sandwich.

[Don Esson]

some LCC's even have pilots paying to be upfront or flying for free

Care to name names? Does this occur in Australia?

[Mstr Caution]

And I can report that the whole Tiger customer ‘experience’ was fine . . . easy to use internet ticket purchase; capable and helpful check in staff; brand new A320; hard working and competent cabin crew; great flying and airmanship; and quick baggage retrieval.



Pedota - As a passenger, how did you determine the airmanship part?

Don Esson - see the article below from ETravelBlackboard NZ


Jetstar accused of exploiting pilots

Friday, 12 June 2009

Cheap labour and threatening individual agreements are rumoured to be the secrets of Jetstar’s success.

New Zealand’s stuff.co reported on Thursday that the New Zealand Air Line Pilots' Association (NZALPA) said the carrier had been trimming its labour costs and employing international pilots willing to work on less pay and worse conditions.

"Jetstar is looking to recruit pilots from overseas who are prepared to come here and work as jet pilots on salaries tens of thousands of dollars lower than current market rates” said NZALPA executive director Rick Mirkin

Jetstar denied the accusations with spokesman Simon Westaway saying that the carrier paid a New Zealand-based captain operating domestic flights $170,000 annually.

"Why would over 500 people be flying aircraft in our organisation if they didn't think it was a good organisation to work for? That's a question we would pose back,"

However, Mirkin said 19 Christchurch pilots had been threatened by Jetstar to either relocate their families to Auckland or “go down the road".

Pilots were also required to buy their own uniforms, pay for navigation charts and only allowed Airbus flight training if they took a pay cut.

Jetstar launched services between Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Queenstown on Tuesday.

[Don Esson]

Mstr C,

While I do not hold any brief for Jetstar, I do say what they are doing in NZ is hardly asking people to pay to fly or to fly for nothing.

-438 should put up or shut up!

[-438]

I'm not sure how to link another thread, this is the best I can do.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/354969-pay-fly-wannabee-damages-thomas-cook-airbus.html

However the practice of low experience pilots paying to fly for airlines is not new.
It's just that the public generally have no idea about it.

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
And I can report that the whole Tiger customer ‘experience’ was fine . . . easy to use internet ticket purchase; capable and helpful check in staff; brand new A320; hard working and competent cabin crew; great flying and airmanship; and quick baggage retrieval.
Pedota - As a passenger, how did you determine the airmanship part?

Cause he was up the back with a GPS , VHF receiver and Flight Planner 3000 for Iphone :}

[Pedota]

Mstr Caution & Green Goblin

You’re both right . . . and I withdraw that part of my post.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

What I did see was things like smooth and positive manoeuvring of the aircraft on the ground and in the air, considerate use of ground/landing lights when in the vicinity of other aircraft, concerted efforts to get out of areas of ‘light chop’ over the Great Australian Bight and fast and smooth descents . . . and brilliant landings (but they’re mostly chance, right?).

I also noticed that the PA announcements from the cockpit didn’t prattle on . . . brief, factual and accurate information was conveyed to the passengers. Interestingly they didn't even say their names.

But you are still both right and I still withdraw – I wasn’t in the cockpit.

And for your information I am going to Canberra with Tiger for $25 and back for $38 over the next days. Maybe you are right Breakfastburrito and there will be a stuff up which will make me change my mind?

Cheers

Pedota

[Mstr Caution]

Pedota - You observed a hell of alot more than the average punter did or would on the day.

By all accounts professionalism was clearly evident & without being in the flight deck, all indications are/where that the airmanship was more than likely commensurate with the level of professionalism displayed.

MC:)

[tobzalp]

You all realise Dick Smith introduced Fog as a part of NASA 2b right?

[Pedota]

Breakfastburrito

In relation to your post the other day, you are of course quite correct in pointing out the ‘dark underbelly’ in the fine print of the LCC model when things don’t go as planned. Spare aircraft capacity, accommodation, baggage gouging, inflexibility and the like are real issues facing passengers using a LCC.

I think it is reasonable to pay for the things that mitigate the ‘dark underbelly’ matters you point out so as to improve certainty of time and cost. But I question the value when today’s passengers payfor unfunded liabilities incurred in previous years.

For example, I understand that two of the largest liabilities (that need funding) of ‘full service’ airlines are the ‘pensions’ and unused frequent flyer points. Let me know if I am wrong about this.

Richard Branson is quoted on this subject in another thread “Will BA Go Bust?” (see below) – although we all are aware of Branson’s capacity for spinning a story.

In the same way that some LLCs gouge the uneducated passenger, I think some ‘full service’ airlines have been guilty of gouging the unquestioning customer. As mentioned in a previous post, I think we are seeing a fundamental paradigm shift in airline business models that makes formerly unquestioning customers ask some pertinent questions about value for money.

I may be wrong in choosing to travel based on price and perhaps I will come running back to the ‘full service’ airline when I get badly jilted – and I will post my experience on this site.

Cheers

Pedota

Richard Branson is quoted as saying Virgin had looked at a bid for BA, Branson said, but concluded that the company’s liabilities – in particular its pension deficit – were too great. “It’s not worth much anymore because of the liabilities. We were thinking about if the shares went under 100p (they closed on Friday at 136½p), but it would be better to wait for its demise”.

[blow.n.gasket]

Or are we simply seeing the "Globalised Corporatisation" of the airline industry?
What will happen to pricing then, when all the smaller independent
operators are squeezed out by the merged industry juggernaugts?:bored: