Family member advice

[manofeurope]

Hi There, I was hoping to get some advice from people in the industry about a dilema I have.

My son is 20 years old. He has zero interest in going to college and al he wants to do is learn to fly. He has taken a few hours here and there in our local training centre.

He (We) cannot afford to take out a loan to take a full time course so his intentions are to clock up the hours month by month until he gets his PPL and onwards from their. This is the only real option for him right now and the reality is that it could be 5-6 years before he is in a position to even apply for a job.

I have had many conversations about this with him and told him that if he wants to fly he should go for it but I also expressed my concerns;-

1) Is going to take him a long time before he can apply for a job
2) He is missing out on doing a college course in the short term
3) He is putting all of his eggs in one basket and if this carrer does not work out he does not have anything else to fall back on
4) He may find it hard to find a job when he does get qualified and he will not be earning a huge ammount of cash for a long time until be climbs the ladder
5) For the next few year he is going to be relying on a mimimum wage job to fund his training. This is based on saving every penny. Does he not want to do anything else in that time

The advice that I have been trying to give him is that he should go to college right now and do any course at all. After 2 years of that get a job that pays well and use that money to fuel his training. He has now sped up the trianing time as he can pay more and also has a fall back plan if anything should go wrong.

:mad: - He has no interest in this.

So my questions to anyone who has taken time to read this far are;-

1) Is flying a valid carrer choice right now?
2) Is he approaching it the wrong way?
3) How much money do you think he could earn in the short, medium and long term
4) Will he find a job.

If you could go back to day one of your carrer would you change your plans?

I really want to support him but I am trying to be real at the same time. I would really sppreciate any advice that you could offer me.

Thanks for your time,

David

[L0wFly3r]

the only advice i can give, really, is if he wants to become a pilot and get it as a job, he will need decent qualifications as this is what i found out when i went to talk to flight schools, Because the grades will get him somewhere others it will be hard to get a flying job, as there is alot of competition for pilots which he will be up against and they will go for those who have aptitude and the grades.

[manofeurope]

Thanks for you prompt reply. I really appreciate it. He did not do very well in school and failed Maths in his final exams. He has not repeated it...

[bfisk]

It might be worthwhile asking why did he fail his final Math exam? Is this, in the long term, indicative of his personality? Why haven't he taken it up again?

[L0wFly3r]

Your welcome, i mean you've probably told him this, but if he can do resits then that will help him alot, because he can then do A levels or Uni, depending on his type of qualification. He needs alot of motivation, i mean I'm at College at the moment hoping to become a Airline pilot, but when you feel or he feels he is getting there, then he might change, otherwise if he still doesn't want to go to College then maybe, he want to think about getting another job, that's what i was told when i did my GCSE's.

[RichT]

Hi manofeurope,
Flight training is very expensive and if your son wants to do it and you or anyone else cant afford to pay for him he is going to have to earn the money along the way. However his instrument rating, ATPL and type rating will require large amounts of cash up front so he is going to have to save up as well as drip feed his hour building. Your advise as a father is very good. He would do well to have a qualification under his belt to both fund his goal and to fall back on when times are hard. He will also need a good level of maths, physics and physical geography to pass his ATPL exams.

Remember that he could fail along the way or he may get to the end and not find a job or at his age he could decide he no longer wants to be a pilot after all. There is a desperate need for trade skills: electricians, plumbers etc all of which can be achieved without a shining school report. The added bonus is that trades pay big money now and will help fund his flight training.

I am a training Captain with a large airline and it amazes me the debt that cadets have when I am training them. They quite literally have a mortgage without a house. Some, obviously, have rich parents but many don’t. I do my best to nurture and develop every cadet that I fly with but there are still some that don’t make it and I have got to tell you my heart bleeds for them. Not only have they failed in their dream career but they have a £100,000 debt that still needs paying off.

You will get replies on here that will say GO FOR IT and FOLLOW YOUR DREAM otherwise you will always be wondering WHAT IF. I agree with these sentiments but make sure your son has the means to achieve his goal without bankrupting himself and you. There is an old saying “Give a man fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life”. Teach your son to earn his way and I am sure that he will make it. Give him the money and I suspect he will fail.

[Bealzebub]

David, let me reply as a father of a 19 year old who harbours similar ambitions. I will answer from the perspective of a senior airline pilot who has been doing this job for 30 years.

My son, like yours is also doing his PPL in significant part at his own cost. He took a job and pays for the flying from what he earns. He applies for each and every partial sponsorship programme that arises and pays for the applications himself. His intention is to use his earnings to pay his way through flight training, which will obviously take some considerable time. As parents we will naturally help him wherever possible and that doesn't simply mean with funding.

I won't add any comment to your concerns because I believe that they are all relevant and perfectly valid.

To answer your questions as best as I can, I will take them one by one and also add a rider as my own view on the state of the industry now and in the near/medium future.

1) Is flying a valid carrer choice right now?
It is certainly a valid career, whether it is a sensible choice really depends on your sons ambitions and perception of risk. As you know the industry is in a very deep recession. In periods of rapid expansion and shortage of supply, there has been an increase in the number of low hour pilots being recruited by UK airlines periodically. This has tended to occur when the usual recruiting sources (military pilots and career improvers) has failed to satisfy demand. These periods have seldom been long lived, and the normal situation is a vast oversupply of low hour pilots chasing very few entry level jobs. In recent years there has been a marked trend towards a few training establishments tying in with a few airlines to offer a structured integrated training course that leads to an airliner type rating and 6 month placement with a partner airline. These courses offered a relatively seamless induction for ab-initio candidates into an airline operating environment. In better times many of these candidates were kept on at the end of their 6 month probation, by the sponsoring airline. Unfortunetaly the practice spread and diluted such that more and more airlines and training organisations were offering training and type ratings that came with no guarantees whatsoever, relied on almost complete financial risk on the part of the candidate, and proved to be something of a cash cow for the organisers. In essence it became an aerial form of vanity publishing where the job wasn't a job anymore, but simply a candidate funded part of the training syllabus. As if this wasn't bad enough, those pilots who had self progressed or left the airforce, now found many of the traditional jobs were no longer there as they had become part of this pay to fly process. Couple this with the retrenchment that the industry is going through and add in one more factor. Over the last few years legislation has changed the retirement age of pilots significantly, by anything up to 10 years. Clearly this affects those pilots (such as myself) who can now extend their relatively healthy and rewarding careers and roll up their final salary pensions by a very significant term. Notwithstanding normal attrition (loss of medicals etc.) this has had the effect of giving the industry a 10 year moritorium on having to replace retiring captains. This has therefore removed the flow of pilots that would otherwise occur in a normal market, for a very significant period. In summary, the combination of all these factors makes now and the forseeable future a very difficult period indeed for any prospective pilot.

2) Is he approaching it the wrong way?
By the sound of it, probably not. I think the only sensible way to proceed in the current climate is to "pay as you go" and do it in a measured and affordable" manner. Despite what the schools and those caught up may tell you. There is no shortage whatsoever. There are very few jobs and a lot of experienced competition for those jobs. Any movement in the future is likely to be measured and slow in coming, for many of the reasons I have already mentioned, and you obviously already know. I agree with you about fall back positions and educational progression, but I understand the resistance you will face in this regard. Certainly I believe that those who take their time and earn their way through, stand the strongest chance at this time. The days of upping the mortgage by 100k to speculate on anything, and certainly flight training are largely a thing of the past for many people.

3) How much money do you think he could earn in the short, medium and long term
How long is a piece of string? In the short term it is more likely he would be earning nothing and simply paying for training and short term opportunity. Where employment might be found in such things as flight training and air taxi work etc. wages are likely to be seasonal and very weak. Even in airlines wages for low hour pilots vary from regional turbo-prop operators to scheduled or charter jet operators. Those wages may be affected by repayment schedules where the operator claws back any money that has been advanced as part of a structured training or type rating programme. You are probably looking at 25-35k in most cases with significant variations and often significant individual debt burdens. After 2-5 years there would be an advancement on to normal salary scales which for an F/O are probably in the 35-55K band with large variations. Long term Captains salaries can range from 60-130k although these are often capped for new joiners, and the higher bands are applicable to employees who joined some time ago. At this time the pressure on costs is significantly downwards and this is reflected in terms & conditions for new joiners.

4) Will he find a job.
Without repeating myself, the prospects are very weak at this time and for the forseeable future. There obviously are openings from time to time and the nature of the industry is in a state of change as I have already mentioned. I think given time, perseverance, support and a good measure of luck, it is likely that he will. However I cannot give you a meaningful measure of quantity or time on any of that.

If you could go back to day one of your carrer would you change your plans?

No I wouldn't. It has been an industry that has been very kind to me. I have been very lucky and had a good career out of it. Nevertheless it has changed significantly over the years. The job today is very different in the nature of the terms and conditions that are offered. Certainly my own son who has travelled extensively with me for the last 8 years, has himself witnessed changes in the industry and recognises that the realities he will face are very different to those I did. There is a still a perception of glamour out in the wannabe world, that is likely to be very tarnished once the product has been bought and paid for.

[TheBeak]

The job is fantastc, the industry and the organisations within are awful. If he wants to be a pilot and he is willing to work and pay his way then there is every reason he should do it. If he wants to be a pilot and he wants you to go guarantor for him, run a mile. Is it a valid career? A peculiar question. Is he approaching it the right way? If he wants to earn and learn then he wont go wrong. How much money will he earn IF he gets a job as a pilot? Enough for the periods that he working. Will he find a job? It will hurt his chances outside of being a pilot generally speaking believe it or not. As a pilot, if he does, he has been very lucky and has done well.

The main factors in it all are luck, timing, resilience and money. NOT the FTO he went to or the 'but he wants it so much'.

the reality is that it could be 5-6 years before he is in a position to even apply for a job.


That could work out nicely for him.

is likely to be very tarnished once the product has been bought and paid for

A very true comment there from Bealzebub - but not because of the flying, because of the industry and the people that ru(i)n it.

[boeingbus2002]

One thing that your son should do is speak to more people.
The groundschool part of the training is very unglamourous and can be mundane. Either way, it is still a requirement. If he has no motivation for retaking GCSEs etc. then passing groundschool subjects when difficulties are faced will also be tough.

Having a backup plan is important. I found during my degree, I learnt new skills. I also saw an improvement within my character. This would be beneficial.

[Akrapovic]

Some good advice being put around here. Just wanted to make a point.

Not entirely sure that a degree is really 'something to fall back on' these days. If I had my time again, I'd go for something more practical than a piece of paper.

My old instructor (now a Senior Captain with a major airline) was looking for work in the last recession in the early 90's. He continually said that he wished he stayed in his job which was welding. He was adamant it was certainly less stressful and earnt him a lot more money. Nevertheless, he persevered and did alright for himself.

My point is, is anyone can get a degree, just as anyone can get a commercial licence. If you've the cash and enough motivation, they're within the grasps of most aspiring individuals. A degree is a bit of paper saying you've a background knowledge in a certain area, but with little experience to take it further.

Your lad's plenty young and has those years ahead of him to get a vocational skill, enjoy his (PPL) flying whilst getting his face known and his head in the books. Whilst he's doing this he's earning money, learning about the intrinsic value of money and making some sound decisions (obviously run by you first!).

Seriously tho - everyone reckons you need a degree, but try thinking outside the box - if I learnt to be a carpenter instead of doing a degree, you can rest assured I'd be using those skills to earn a few extra bob if my flying didn't work out, than scratching my head wondering how I'm going to 'fall back' onto a degree in biology!

Many may disagree with me, but you may not . . . ? Just a thought :t

[boeingbus2002]

I agree with Akrapovic;
Its not necessarily a degree that he should do but anything that he would do well in.
Is also about the experience gained in various situations, i.e Dealing with people, responsibility, etc. In an interview situation, these qualities would be discussed and having real life stories where he has done well and demonstrated these skills.

[G-FATTY]

Hi David,

At 13 I made my mind up that I wanted to be an airline pilot. From then on I told everyone that I was not going to Uni because I had already decided my career and for me it was a waste of time and money.
Now I have finished my whole training I am not expecting a job anytime soon however I would not have changed what I have just put myself through!
I have a local job on minimum wage but its paying the loans back and thats all that I care about, because once the industry picks up I know i'll be there ready to jump on the ladder.

With regards to the Maths debate that has opened up!
There is a big difference between subjects at school and the groundschool.

School subjects are generally boring and its easy to give up there and then.
I failed my maths Alevel (got a U) and gave it up without a second thought.
When you get to the ATPL Groundschool, if flying is really what your Son wants to do he will have no problem getting through it.

The maths/physics is a benefit to have, but my views are that your Son will cope with them if its really what he wants to do in life. The maths comes in to a few of the 14 subjects - but I think anyone will be able to get through it with the determination.
There were people on my course in their 40s and one in the 50s who had not done maths for 30 years, and they got through

Hope that helps!

G-FATTY

[Leezyjet]

Completely agree with whats been said so far.

He would be better off in the short term learning a trade such as plumbing or something along those lines. This can be a nice money earner to be able to fund the flying at the same time, and he will always have something useful to fall back on, or even do jobs on the side when he is qualified - pilots are very tight and always looking to save a £ or 2. :ok:

There is no rush for him to get into flying at the moment, and the 5 years or so that it would take him to train could work out well for the up turn once all the recently qualified and currently in training guys are sucked up. If he is paying as he goes, he can also start and stop the training as he wished depending on the market circumstances at the time.

He will also be better off in the long term if he works for a few years now to save up the money, so he can come out of training debt free. There are posts on here in the training section, tales of guys who need to find the best part of £2K just to meet loan re-payments every month and cannot find a job. Encourage him to read them, and work hard now.

Good things come to those who wait. I didn't start my training until I was 30, and I have met pilots who didn't start until they were in their 40's who still made Captain so he has plenty of time ahead of him to enjoy a career in aviation.

At least you are being sensible and doing your own research on the subject too. I fear there are a lot of parents out there at the moment who invested their savings/house on their childs flying training without doing the research who are now living in fear of the repo man coming knocking.

:)

[Superpilot]

Hi,

Can I just make the small point that your son is guilty of ignoring the most basic and common piece of advice given to teenagers concerning this career - you too G-FATTY. That is to study and do well at maths and a science subject. It doesn’t matter if you fail, it’s important, you keep on trying until you pass. As a teenager I had this advice very early on from careers advisors of which there is at least one of within each school/college in this country. If he hasn't had this advice or didn't pay particular attention to it, then I agree with one of the above posters, he definitely needs to talk to more people and start listening.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that without a good grade in maths you’re doomed, but it kind of sets the scene for a very unsound shortcut seeker mentality. He has 14 ATPL exams to come which are not easy. He should know at his age the importance of maths to an airline pilot and the fact that he has decided to just pass on this relatively simple hurdle will be probed into at his first assessment where recruiters apply different rules - "so you aint got any flying experience, what have you achieved then chuck?"

Also, as a result of this he will now be ineligible for 99% of so called sponsorship / mentored pilot schemes thereby automatically reducing his chances of finding work.

A lot of us on here are academically sound, young but at the same time mentally mature guys who worked for the first 5-10 years of our working lives saving up and working hard towards this career. Even we are finding it tough to get at least an interview. That is the sort of thing you’re son will be up against. Unless he has friends in high places.

You sound like one of those very reasonable Dads. Personally, I woud've had these sort of affairs decided for me even at the ripe old age of 20!

"Don't want to go college? Get the hell out of my house then!" :\
(A bit extreme but it probably would've worked)

Best of luck to you both.

[INNflight]

David,

You got some GREAT advice in the above posts (something which is not TOOO common around here often :E) so make sure you read it all carefully.

Let me first say, the pay as you go method is the BEST thing that he could do. There is no need to finish flight training fast at this time, the industry is probably still on its way down, so being done in 5 years or so would not be a bad thing per se. Plus, if he works (whatever job) and funds his flying with it, he will be done at some point, and have NO DEBT to pay off......that is a HUGE advantage over anyone else who finished training in a year and has a mortage of 100,000 pounds!

-----

The main two issues your son (as a starting pilot) will face are probably the following:

-) Getting that first job.

He has to realize as a low-hour pilot you MUST not be picky. Unless there is a desperate need for pilots and he becomes very lucky, there is no such thing as a job on a shiny jet right out of flight school. He needs to build experience first.

-) Getting that first job. (close to home).

As I said, he must not be picky, so for a first job it is very likely that he has to relocate. Be it continental Europe, the Middle East or Africa. If he is desperate for a job he will have to go where the openings are. Being 25 and leaving all your friends (maybe a girlfriend) behind for a year or two is not something you want to do, really.

------------

I think it is great that you seek advise here with other pilots, that is a very sensible thing to do, and shows you care a lot.

------------

The truth is, there will always be the need for pilots in the close future. Aircraft are still being ordered and the industry WILL recover and eventually experience an upswing again.

While pay is getting cut everywhere in aviation, it is still not a career that pays little money. Try earning 2500-3000 pounds a month in your first year with no college degree elsewhere. Not many jobs can do that. Plus the views...... the views :ok:

------------

You seem to be a very sensible father, so make sure to guide him the right way, and he'll get it worked out!

[Re-Heat]

David,

Problem with the industry is that a lot of people self-select themselves, and throw money at the training until they get through, only then to find that they do not have the aptitude or personality to work in a multi-crew flight deck.

He needs to ascertain if he has that skill before he wastes untold thousands of pound and 5-6 years of his life. I recommend a GAPAN aptitude test, which is a worthwhile and independent investment, and will tell you if you have the skills or not.

I am curious - when did his interest in aviation start, and what is his motivation? Is he after the flying itself, the perceived lifestyle, or does it just seem easy to him? If he failed maths, I would worry that he won't have the aptitude to academically make it past the first hurdle.

Furthermore, while piecemeal PPL flying does suit some people, it sounds like he would benefit from saving his money and doing it all in one go - not only to minimise the hours and cost, but also as it would put serious pressure on him to - say - complete it all in 5 weeks, with the ground exams as well.

Finally, try to ensure he is not falling for the flight school marketing material, especially in the middle of a recession - they are adept at nurturing dreams without clarifying the reality of actually getting the flying job.

[betpump5]

Your post is very useful to many parents with dreamy kids who want this life. A lot of good, no great actually, advice has been given here answering specifically the questions you have asked. Listen to them and show your son the replies.

I will not go over old ground, Instead I will come at it from a different angle which is THE PILOT – the finished entity.

What surprised me most in this industry and still does today is the attitude and personality that pilots must have, a certain profile as it were. In any other industry, the interview and subsequent recruitment of a candidate is highly based on merit. This may be due to the technical nature of the job, experience required, and of course discriminatory laws.

However, in pilot recruitment it is totally different. You see every single pilot has put their life and soul into training, spent copious amounts of money, perhaps got divorced over it, dreamt about it their whole life blah blah blah. No one gives a monkeys. Every budding pilot in that interview room is a highly trained professional. He/she has committed and sacrificed so much for a job that is not guaranteed. There is NO other industry out there where a person pays anywhere up to £100K without the guarantee of a job.

Now here is the killer. It does not matter how well you performed in the Sim or how well you answered the technical parts of the interview, if you do not have “IT” then you will not get hired. Personality is so important. You need to have confidence to speak, to joke. You need to show the guys at the other side of the table that you are someone they can be with for X amount of hours in the cockpit, as well as the bar in the hotel.

Is your son the type of person who, at a family gathering or a gathering of friends that he may not know well, will hide in the corner and only speak when spoken to? Has he just got one good friend who he has known since he was 4 and he/she is all he hangs around with? Is he a funny guy without being rude, racist or annoying? And no offence but how does he look? Does he have any interesting stories, any life experiences that he could bring up at an interview?

I know what I’m saying here may beggar belief and most non-pilots here would say I’m talking out of my rear end. Hell, perhaps even current pilots may say I am over exaggerating things but I really do want to give you an insight as to what an airline looks for.

If you have are the Lucasian professor of mathematics at Cambridge with 100% in your ATPLs and the best stick and rudder skills in the world but you have the personality of a brussel sprout, then you are not going to be an airline pilot. Not now, not ever.

Singapore Airlines have an ab-inito pilot scheme. They have a set amount of stages. Medicals, interviews, aptitude tests etc. However the final stage is called a “Tea-Party”. The remaining cadets are invited to a function room to eat, to drink, to socialise. Within that room are also serving pilots and of course the Chief Pilot. They are monitoring all perspective recruits. How they act, how they socialise. Are they trying to act sociable or are they naturally sociable? Does the drink go to their heads? How do they act around the few flight attendants that are also strategically placed in the room? Can you imagine it? All those recruitment stages, the medical, the interviews. Yet the final judgement is how you act at the “tea-party”.

You know your son better than the rest of us. So here is the killer question:

Does he have what it takes to be an Airline Pilot?

[corsair]

That description of your son could have applied to me when I was 20. The main difference is that my parents never took my ambition seriously and in any case, didn't have the means to help.

I even failed maths in school too. However I did repeat it and passed. Interestingly it wasn't my lack of scholastic ability. In fact I passed exams too easily, often without the complication of study. So I became lazy.

My subsequent fate should be a lesson to all. I didn't go to college, realistically in fact I couldn't for financial reasons. But it remains a huge regret for me on a number of levels. I got a low wage job to pay for the flying. I assiduously avoided any career that would distract from my ambition to fly. So the military was out and anything that required training as I felt it would distract me or delay my flying career. In fact the opposite occurred. I would have achieved my ambition more quickly by planning things a bit better. But I was a naive young guy. Your son sounds all too familiar.

The simple truth is that you cannot fund flight training on a low paid job. You have to borrow and the people most likely to get the money are those in higher paid jobs. Essentially I lurched from one financial crisis to another, all my money went on flying. At one stage, I had one pair of shoes per year and depended on my Christmas bonus vouchers to buy new clothes. I had no social life and quite frankly to all and sundry I appeared to be a Walter Mittyish dreamer.

I took years to get the PPL, years again to get a CPL and it finally took a big redundancy payment from my dead end low paid job to get me close to the final hurdle. But not quite, with the money spent and one ATPL exam to repeat. I was made redundant again, this time without the big payout. I was out of work for seven months. Part of the reason was my simple lack of qualifications, partly a downturn in the economy and partly my own stupid fault. I had no fall back. Ignore the CPL/IR I was an unskilled worker with non relevant experience. Worse my licence wasn't sufficient to get me work and I had no money to keep it current anyway. This will be a familiar fate for some of you reading this.

I eventually got yet another low paid factory job, only now I had debts to pay. It was several more years before I got flying properly again.

Finally, finally after far to many years. I got a job flying. It's pays terribly, is insecure and definitely not a long term proposition. But it's flying, the only compensation.

The problem I have now is the same as before. No qualifications other than as a pilot. Worse I am now at an age where I will be overlooked for many jobs. So if you like I'm trapped as a low paid pilot. I like flying but it's no way to make a living. So I am currently thinking about what's next. Flying will become a part time thing, perhaps instructing or other bits and pieces.

With hindsight, I see now that if I'd gone to college or just took some sort of training course leading to a decent qualification. I would in all probability be smug successful training Captain in one or other of the local airlines.

This isn't a sad story as frankly I quite enjoyed most of it. But it is salutory lesson for those who think becoming a pilot is just a case of taking lessons as you go and hoping there'll be money coming in all the time. I was grounded for months at a time just trying to reduce my overdraft after a flurry of training. It was one step forward two backwards all too often.

If you haven't got the money upfront to get trained now. You need to think of ways of raising it. For most you have to work for it. There's no point in getting any low paid job. You need a well paid job. To get a well paid job, you need qualifications usually. That, therefore is the first priority.

Once earning decent money, you save and save and then borrow the rest and use that money to advance your training in stages. Either that or you work hard for three or four years, saving what you can and borrow the rest. Either way you have to live like a monk and suffer periodic bouts of self doubt as to the course of your life and suffer the slings and arrows from your friends and family who decide you are quite mad.

Eventually you may get there, assuming you have the ability, dedication and a modicum of luck. Only then will you know if it's worth it. Many realise it simply isn't.

One other thing, like re-heat I wonder at his motivation for becoming a pilot? I was, still am, an aviation nut, a dedicated aerosexual. That kept me going when times were tough. But ultimately all I wanted to do was fly. Unless you have an unreasonable almost obsessional dedication to the cause. You may not succeed particularly via the route he is determined to pursue. It's quite easy for someone on an integrated course to stay motivated because it's all about flying. But when you finish a string of night shifts and all you want to do is sleep. Rousing yourself to head out to airfield and work even harder is difficult.

To answer your questions:

1) Is flying a valid carrer choice right now? Yes but it's not easy, not secure and requires compromises in you life.

2) Is he approaching it the wrong way? Yes, absolutely for the reasons stated above.

3) How much money do you think he could earn in the short, medium and long term I don't think that's too relevant to him. Most pilots make a decent enough living, eventually. There are exceptions of course. It's the wrong career choice if money is the motive

4) Will he find a job. Not neccessarily, it depends on his ability. See betpump5's post above. Some pilots are simply unemployable. But in general yes, although if he persists in his present course. It could be in 2019 before he gets close to being suitable for interview.

Sorry for the long winded reply. But I would hate to think anyone would repeat my mistakes again. :=

[clanger32]

don't really have a lot to add. I think you've probably got the highest percentage of seriously useful posts I've seen in recent PPRuNe memory!

The only thing that personally I don't think has been touched on, is that by gaining another career, you also gain a useful insight into a "normal" working life.

There are many, many pilots who start on this career and this career only at the age of 18, only to find themselves seriously jaded by it by the age of 30.

The benefit of KNOWING how ****e office politics are and the drudgery of commuting to a 9-5 office job is a tremendous motivator when a day flying isn't going well.....you can think back to the alternative and realise how lucky you are.

A bad day in the air always beats a bad day (even a good day?) in the office - so getting the benefit of that experience might auger well for long term enjoyment of a flying career.

Other than that - one of my personal bug bears is that a penny you can put to your training yourself is probably worth 2p of borrowed money, so if he can fund training himself without debt, it will probably cost him 50% of the overall cost if he borrowed.

Finally, just to re-iterate - I'm relatively recently out of integrated flying training. I have a degree and 10+ years senior industry experience. It is REALLY tough out there right now, postponing completion is far from a bad idea right now, there's an awful lot of us out there looking for very few positions - thebeak is right, luck is a huge part of the equation.

REALLY finally - Bealzebub/RichT - I doff my hat to you sirs, very concise and balanced posts. Wish there were more of them around.

[clanger32]

[edited to say that my first post was written just prior to Corsair and Betpumps posts immediately preceding it]

I'm now going to rescind my previous comment about this post possibly having the most "seriously useful replies in living PPRuNe memory" and go out on a limb to say it IS the post with the most seriously useful replies.

I've had run in's with both Corsair and Betbumps on these pages, but both have added more good advice to that already posted. Corsairs tale is perhaps particularly worthy of note.

A skill learned at this stage, will NEVER be a skill wasted if your son fulfills his dream...and indeed will assist in facilitating achievment of that dream

[betpump5]

I've had run in's with both Corsair and Betbumps on these pages,

I want to add to this because there is another killer in the aviation Industry. I have already mentioned that it doesn't matter how good you are, if your personality (or lack of) stands in your way then, then you may very well not get hired.

The other thing is luck. You could be the best pilot. You could indeed be a laugh-a-minute type of 'geezer'. But if you just don't have the luck then again you may not get hired. Take all of the guys who in 2007 started mod/integrated training thinking they would have a job in the bag by 2009. Now its possible these guys may have a very long wait.

There are also some really tough stories here about how different ppruners got to the RHS. G-SXTY story in particular. fair enough he managed to get a Flybe job a month or so after training if I believe. However during his training, he got divorced, family member diagnosed with cancer. Financial troubles with training etc. And there are others stories out there too. I think another story was Pilotpete (apologies if I have go the names wrong) whose kid had a few complications and he had to stop training as well.(All stories are on here via the search).

Anyway, the reason I quoted Clanger32 is because we indeed did have a minor altercation. In my haste at the time, I was speaking up for some pilot friends of mine in low cost carriers in England who after 15-20 years of flying are seeing their T&Cs eroded due to wannabees buying a Type rating so they can go straight into a RHS of a shiny jet and work for peanuts - Thus setting a precedent for the future.

Naturally this was extremely hypocritical of me - as indeed back in 2000 I did pay for a TR (well my dad ex-pilot did). This led to a job a few weeks later flying 737-200s in the Philippines.

And this is what I mean about luck. Last week whilst walking through the beautiful Terminal 3 at Heathrow (:}) I bought a Jeremy Clarkson Book. One of the stories in there was him ranting that people should accept that life is not fair and stop complaining about it. One of his analogies was that if you are born to a King and Queen, you are set up for life. But if you are born ginger to stupid parents, then you will always struggle in life. Whilst the specifics I won't agree with, the concept of luck and fair is so true in this industry.

I read Corsairs reply with sadness. He could be a far better pilot than me and a personality to match. But I was the one on a stop-over in Guam in 2002 who started taking to a guy in the bar who just so happened to be the Recruitment Director at a cargo airline. This is why after 2 years on the 732, I was able to move to the 742-F before my 22nd Birthday. How did I deserve that against another guy who has sacrificed so much more than me?

At 25, I applied to a legacy carrier that also flew Cargo. I was accepted and had a start date within 3 months time. 2 month before my start date, I received a letter in the post. Apparently they had just promoted many SFOs to Captains on the 747 and A340. Therefore I was asked whether I could start 1 month early and begin training on the 747-400.

Right place at the right time.

[Re-Heat]

Seriously good posts that should be selectively stickied at the top of the forum. (WWW - perhaps a rolling sticky, locked thread similar to the way the flyertalk BAEC forum does it perhaps?)

An antidote to some of the tosh previously seen from starry-eyed idealists.

[airbandit]

Thank you all for those wonderful posts. Do not think they won't help, they already had helped me! Just few months ago I still was thinking that it is not a good idea to go for a BCs, but now it is totally different. I will start Airport and Airline management course and I am so happy I will still have plenty of time to re-think everything, of course the best part is that I already can enjoy PPL. ;)

I would like to advice all young people wishing to start career in aviation to start with something smaller like PPL (obviously not the integrated ATPL). It is not so easy to do PPL as many you think, plus when you do it you make contacts which are one of the most important things in all careers/jobs/industries. Do the degrees, they will be useful one day (f.e pilot interview :))

Thanks one more time :ok:

[corsair]

I would re-iterate betpump's latest. Luck and being in the right place at the right time does apply too. That's exactly how I got my first flying job. Interestingly it was a posting on an aviation forum. I emailed the person concerned. Later he called me. It was clear almost immediately we spoke the same language, as it were. Afterwards in a daze, I went downstairs to my wife and told her I had just been offered my first job as a pilot. It wasn't quite as I imagined it would be.

But I would never have kept the job, if I turned out to be a dodgy pilot with a personality bypass. That's how the job came available in the first place. A series of iffy pilots either personality wise or skills wise. I've met several reasonable pilots over the years who couldn't understand their lack of success. The truth was, no one liked them.

It's also fair to say you can make your own luck. It may be lucky to meet the right person in a bar in Guam. But you have to be out there in places like that to meet people, not sitting at home watching Discovery channel and dreaming. A young woman newly finished training turned up at the airfield recently, not so much looking for a job but hoping to buy time on our aircraft. We couldn't help but she left with a contact number from the boss. I've no doubt she will succeed with her very proactive attitude. She is making her own luck.

As for you Clanger thanks, if we clashed before. I can't remember but I was right and you were wrong or vice versa!

[clanger32]

Corsair,
I'm sure you're right. My wife constantly tells me that I'm wrong as well...
:}

On a serious note, I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with my perspective(s) - that's what makes for a good night in the pub - how dull would life be if everyone just accepted I'm right? Argue first, THEN admit I'm right...

And the point on luck is one I fully agree with also...I'd go so far as to say that luck is by far more influential in getting that first job than any choice of training is...

[XXPLOD]

Betpump5's advice can apply to so many jobs, especially:

Yet the final judgement is how you act at the “tea-party”.

Reminds me of my 2 day police officer recruitment process. After day 1 consisting of group excercises, medical etc... we're told to be in the bar for 7pm for a quiz. "Don't worry, you're not being assessed" say the recruiting team.

All bar one girl do the quiz, all very jolly, then c2200 cue: "Well, it's been a long day/had an early start etc..." and back to the accomodation.

The girl is knocking back JD & coke like it's going out of fashion, must have had 8 or 9 and had to be carried back to her room. Guess who had the 0900 interview with the Superintendent? She failed.