BOAC B707-436 Early LAX operations

[captain.speaking]

The 1962 summer schedules for BOAC show a 3 x weekly service BA591 LHR/LAX with a scheduled time of 13.00hrs westbound, and 10.30 eastbound, as well as a 2 x weekly service BA583 LHR/SFO, with scheduled times of 14.05 westbound and 10.30 eastbound. The SFO service westbound has a note "technical stop en route", [ which I think was at YUL ], the LAX service does not.

Does anyone know if the westbound LAX service did actually operate non-stop westbound, and if not, where did it tech stop ?

[Jumbo Driver]

I seem to remember there was a tech stop at Winnipeg ... although I'm not sure whether that was at the time you mention, or later ...


JD
:)

[Saab Dastard]

Given the 707's range was about 3500 - 3750 miles and the distance from LHR to LAX is 5400 miles, there would have had to have been a re-fuelling stop.

Montreal or Toronto would make sense (from a great circle perspective), if not one of the US eastern seaboard airports.

SD

[Musket90]

BA591 used to be LHR-JFK in late 60's with Super VC10s I think, so maybe the B707s in the early 60's routed via JFK to LAX.

[suninmyeyes]

I know an ex BOAC 707 Captain, now aged 90 and put the question to him. He has just checked one of his many logbooks. Incidentally he achieved a speed record in the early 1960s flying LAX-LHR in 9hrs 15 minutes, (airborne not chock to chock). He says it might have been SF0-LHR though.

Back to the question. He operated BA 591 LHR-LAX on Jun 3rd 1962 in B707 G-APFG. It went via JFK which is where he got off. Strangely his next sector was from JFK-Kingston. He reckons he must have been supernumary on the BA591 as he has the Captain's name down as Buxton and not himself.

[The SSK]

suninmyeyes: Strangely his next sector was from JFK-Kingston

Not strange, BOAC operated regular services from JFK to Bermuda and the Caribbean, either as stand-alone services or extensions of transatlantic flights.

[411A]

Given the 707's range was about 3500 - 3750 miles and the distance from LHR to LAX is 5400 miles, there would have had to have been a re-fuelling stop.



Sorry, incorrect information about the range/distance.
We speak of distance in air transportation in nautical miles (not statute) so the distance from LHR to LAX is more like 4800NM.

In addition, as I have flown (as a Captain) some of these older B707 intercontinential models, LHR-LAX was at the extreme end of the distance possible, however it was done on a regular basis, providing however...optimum levels were possible from ATC, a min distance routing was selected, the weather at destination was forecast to be favorable, re-dispatch procedures were used (to minimise contingency fuel uplifted) and finally, the required distance to the alternate selected was minimal.

The LHR-LAX sector normally would fit this profile above, so yes, the route was normally flown non-stop, on some days.

[The SSK]

I was told by ops people in BA - who would have been around at the time of the direct services - that refuelling would be requested for as soon after arrival as possible, when the wings were still cold and you could get more fuel in. Were they kidding me?

When I joined in the late 1960s the direct services had gone and didn't reappear until the 707-336s arrived.

[Saab Dastard]

411A,

You're right, of course - I was looking at figures for the 120B and 320 (and mixing statute and nautical miles :O).

Boeing's own figures show that 3500-3750 NM are correct for the 120B and 320 (JT4A-11 engines), but the 320B (Advanced Passenger) does indeed have a range (with typical 141 passenger load) of 5000NM at max. take-off weight. It would have had a takeoff runway length requirement of about 2 miles at sea level, Standard day, or a further 1/4 mile +15C!

I admit that I'm rather confused, as all the 320s had the enlarged wings and increased tank capacity (over prior models), but it seems that until the 320B introduced different engines (JT3D-3B) as well as a stretched fuselage, and the "Advanced" introduced leading-edge flaps, the range was still under 4000NM

The Max. take-off weight increased from 316,000 (320) to 333,000 lbs (320B AP), does that 17,000lbs equate to 1250 NM?

I found the Boeing 707 Performance Charts (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/707sec3.pdf) on the Boeing website.

The figures are for P&W engines, I assume that RR Conways would be reasonably similar - isn't that what BOAC used on their -400's?

SD

[The SSK]

The BOAC 320s (336s) had much better range than the 420s - when they arrived it opened up the West Coast, Anchorage-Tokyo and eventually the trans-Siberian services which the 420s couldn't do (or in the case of the West Coast services, could do ... just ... on a good day).

[captain.speaking]

Thanks to everyone for their input, but I'm not a great deal clearer about the BOAC 1962 schedule for the route.

I've now seen the Winter 62/63 schedules, which are much in line with the summer ones, with the W/B LAX service scheduled for 13.15 hrs and the W/B SFO still shown as 14.05 hrs, although the LAX route also has the note re technical landing en-route.

The problem is that it is not possible to have scheduled the LAX service via JFK in 13.00 - the block times for the two sectors total at least 13.00 hrs alone, with no ground time. It would have been just possible to schedule via YUL, but only allowing 0.30 ground time, and 5.30 for YUL/LAX [ AF allowed 5.40 at that time ].

The other very strange point is why the SFO schedule was between 1.05 and 0.50 longer than LAX - it would have been possible to operate this one via JFK, but again only with 0.30 ground time at JFK [ at JFK ??! ].

It also seems strange that with a total of 5 flights per week to the West Coast, BOAC didn't seem to route via YWG, which with an 8.05 sector LHR/YWG would seem to have been well within the capabilities of the early Conway 707's, and with only a further 3.30 YWG/LAX [ 3.30 YWG/SFO ] would have saved considerable time on both routes.

All very strange !

Richard.

[arem]

I joined BOAC in 1967 so my info is a bit distant

The -436 unless nearly empty wouldn't have made either LAX or SFO nonstop.

The SFO service was part of a transPacific routing to Tokyo ie LHR-JFK-SFO-HNL-(Wake Island)-HND-HKG

The LAX service was a terminator at the time and I think went via YUL, but didn't last very long - I think until the mid '60's

SFO was also used when we started the SYD service through the west but when the VC-10 took over that route then LAX came back on line, but still via JFK.

The -336 pax versions came in in the late '60's/early '70's and were used on the LAX non-stop routes - however initially we were always routed outbound via YWG,YYC or YUL and home via YOW - not that the aircraft couldn't make it but the cabin crew refused to!!!!!!!!

When that was sorted out we still went via (usually via YWG) outbound but nonstop homeward. The westbound stop had a hidden benefit - we could fill her up whereas nonstop would involve a payload penalty. Homeward bound no problemo! - 747's and DC10's solved all those problems!!

[WHBM]

I 747's and DC10's solved all those problems!!Actually the 747 did not solve the problem for BA until their 747-200s came along some 8 years after the original fleet. It was strange, for TWA operated 747-100s London to LAX without problem, but under BA's procedures it did not have the endurance.

It was because of this range issue that BA got into the the daily lease arrangement with Air New Zealand in the mid-1970s for DC-10s on the route, which operated for several years (which I rode several times). Even the DC-10s used to get squeezed for capacity westbound, and if full pax freight would sometimes have to be left behind.

Regarding the LAX service, sure the 707-420s could have refuelled westbound, but even more surprising is that they scheduled nonstop eastbound, which I would have thought would have been beyond them as well. The eastbound block time is much the same as that which the TW 747s did nonstop at the end of the 1970s. But if they really could do this eastbound, could they have been nearly able to do it westbound ? Could that refuelling stop have been at Prestwick, which I believe was a BOAC base then ?

Did they also take no freight, to extend their endurance ? Pan Am and TWA were starting nonstops with 707-320Bs this year, it could have been a BOAC uneconomic but commercially-driven response.

Winnipeg would have been a difficult choice for an intermediate crew change in the winter, as in those days it was very unreliable due to weather, and diversion to the alternate with no ongoing BOAC crew available would have been a logistical nuisance.

I was told by ops people in BA - who would have been around at the time of the direct services - that refuelling would be requested for as soon after arrival as possible, when the wings were still cold and you could get more fuel in. Were they kidding me?It was something along those lines, to do with chilled fuel (ie the fuel was cold rather than the tanks), which was able to be supplied. There was a thread aout this here recently.

[Musket90]

Ah - Memories of the B747-100 LHR-LAX flights. TWA and Panam
TW761 and PA121, climbing like a brick not reaching initial cruising level FL280 or 310 until near the Scottish border.

[Saab Dastard]

It was something along those lines, to do with chilled fuel (ie the fuel was cold rather than the tanks), which was able to be supplied. There was a thread aout this here recently.

In current F1, the teams are allowed a maximum of ambient -10C when refuelling, because there is a slight, but measurable advantage to pouring in chilled fuel!

Here's a link to an earlier thread:

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/348739-temperature-vs-fuel-density.html

SD

[411A]

I admit that I'm rather confused, as all the 320s had the enlarged wings and increased tank capacity (over prior models), but it seems that until the 320B introduced different engines (JT3D-3B) as well as a stretched fuselage, and the "Advanced" introduced leading-edge flaps, the range was still under 4000NM


Yes, you are confused.

The early Intercontinental 707-320 and -436 models had the same fuselage length, but a different fuel tank capacity.
-436, yes normally operated non-stop LHR-LAX....just (as I have described previously).
In addition, AirFrance operated their 707-328's non-stop to SFO as well, from ORY....just.
Likewise, ORY-LAX...just, using JT4A-17 engines.
I remember these flights well, as they would request a direct routing LAX, as they were a tad short on fuel.

PS:
All of these early -320/436 (etc) models had partial LED's (leading edge devices)...except, those aircraft originally delivered to South African...these had full span LED's.

Gotta know your airplane....and yes, later on, I flew 'em all, after they were later sold to 'new' operators.

NB.
'Advanced' referred to the cowl design.
Original...(on fan engined airplanes)...old cowl (small inlet doors).
Advanced cowl...large inlet doors.

Made a big difference to takeoff performance.
Big time.

[Tim Zukas]

Scheduled times between Europe and the Pacific Coast in 6/62:

LAX-LHR-- PA 3/wk 10:30, TW 2/wk 11:55, BA 3/wk 10:30

LHR-LAX-- PA 11:35, TW 13:12, BA 13:00

SFO-LHR-- PA 1/wk 11:25, BA 2/wk 10:30

LHR-SFO-- PA 11:20, BA 14:05

SEA-LHR-- PA 2/wk 9:30

LHR-SEA-- PA 10:25

LAX-ORY-- TW 2/wk 11:05

ORY-LAX-- TW 14:37

(All these are based on an 8-hr clock difference to LHR and 9-hr to ORY-- I guess they had Summer Time in Paris?)

All those flights are shown in the Quick Ref OAG as nonstop, which presumably doesn't mean a whole lot. Nobody had 707-320Bs by then, did they? Air France got their first -320Bs by early 1963, and they probably didn't start LAX-ORY nonstop until then; any reason to think they ever tried to fly JT4As nonstop in either direction?

FWIW Flight for 23 March 1961 says BOAC flew LHR-YUL-LAX; in 1962 The Aeroplane mentioned that about 90% of BOAC's LAX-LHR flights until then had been actual nonstops. Also, PA made the first known jet nonstop LHR-LAX on 1 Jan 1961-- average headwind component during the flight was zero, it says, but they departed with full tanks, 155000 lb, and arrived with... 13000 lb I think it was.

While you're wondering about such things, give a thought to El Al's 707-420s TLV-IDL. Anyone know how often they did that nonstop?

[Spooky 2]

My memory may be fading like everything else but the most fuel I recall seeing in a 707-321C was 150K. Are you sure about the 155K figure in your post?

[Saab Dastard]

23,855 USG is the figure quoted for max. fuel in the Boeing figures for the 707 320 series. At 6.667lbs / USG that comes out at 159,041 lbs.

El Al's 707-420s TLV-IDL

Were they operating RR Conways? Again, the Boeing figures suggest a max. range (with normal passenger load) for the RR 420 of under 4000NM!

SD

[Spooky 2]

Thanks. I looked it up this time and your are absolutely right!

[411A]

It should be remembered by those that are looking at some of these older non-stop sectors flown long ago with these early generation jet transport airplanes...that many times, they were payload restricted, in order to actually fly the sector...non-stop.

The devil is in the details.;)

[Tim Zukas]

Jane's 1960-61 says normal capacity for the 707-320/420 was 21200 US gallons, optional 23590.

The item was in The Aeroplane for 6 Jan 1961:

"Pan American completed what is believed to be the first non-stop commercial flight between London and Los Angeles on Jan. 1. Flight PA121 (Capt. Eugene Myring) left London at 16.19 hrs. G.M.T. on Dec. 31, and reached Los Angeles (5,140 naut. miles) in 11 hr. 42 min., carrying 37 passengers, 13 crew and 8,500 lb. of freight. It left London Airport at max. weight with full tanks (155,000 lb. fuel) and had 13,000 lb. of fuel unburnt on arrival. There was nil wind component, the average speed being 436 knots."

[Seat62K]

You learn something new every day!

I had absolutely no idea that -436s flew non-stop on West Coast routes early in the '60s. I had assumed that because a decade later Los Angeles was served via New York that this had always been the case.


Does anyone know why non-stop services to Los Angeles were withdrawn by BOAC? (Also, am I right in assuming that they were not re-introduced until the DC10-30s were leased from Air New Zealand?)

[WHBM]

Does anyone know why non-stop services to Los Angeles were withdrawn by BOAC? (Also, am I right in assuming that they were not re-introduced until the DC10-30s were leased from Air New Zealand?)
My hunch (only) wuld be that BOAC didn't have the aircraft to do it. The 707-436s must have been pushed, either through reducing their commercial load or by making fuel stops, while once the 707-320B came on line for Pan Am and TWA they had an aircraft with proper range for the job. BOAC had gone for the Rolls Royce engine instead of P&W, and when the 707-320B/C range was introduced Rolls didn't have a comparable engine. BOAC later moved onto this variant, but only buying odd units rather than a fleet, and for some years only operated them in freighter service, another variant that the Rolls-powered aircraft didn't offer.

The LA market in those days to Europe was much thinner than now, and mostly originated from the US end (the film/media business in particular), and this would be commercially well tied up by the two US carriers, in particular TWA who long focused on the film industry market in Los Angeles, which some have attributed to Howard Hughes' contacts. With two US carriers strong on the route BOAC probably found it commercially wasn't worthwhile.

[Jumbo Driver]

I had absolutely no idea that -436s flew non-stop on West Coast routes early in the '60s. I had assumed that because a decade later Los Angeles was served via New York that this had always been the case.

I don't believe that the 707-436 ever flew scheduled non-stop LHR-LAX, that was just too far. I remember the range of the -436 being not that different from the VC10 and it was certainly not a feasible operation by VC10, which normally routed via JFK. In fact, I recall doing a couple of West Coast trips in the early 70s with a crew slip (planned!) in Gander.

Both 707 & VC10 had Conways but I think the 707 had an earlier version (Conway 508) developing around 18,000lb thrust. The VC10 had the RCo.42 (Conway 540) which produced just over 20,000lb and the later Super VC10 was given the RCo.43 (Conway 550B) with IIRC around 22,500lb.

The 707-336C was a different animal with, I believe, the P&W JT3D-3B; this had significantly lower fuel-burn and therefore much longer range. The first -436s were delivered to BOAC in 1959/60 but the -336Cs did not appear until some 5 years later, from about 1965 on.

If any 707 had been planned LHR-LAX direct (non-stop), I feel it would have to have been the -336 and not the -436 ...


JD
:)

[Groundloop]

but the -336Cs did not appear until some 5 years later, from about 1965 on.

And the early -336Cs in the BOAC fleet were dedicated to freighter ops only.

[WHBM]

Only right at the end of the 707's life at BOAC did they finally go for the developed 707-320B for passenger service. When they got the route through Moscow to Tokyo in 1970 they bought two such aircraft new specially for this. It was a strange purchase, coming after BOAC had taken delivery of their first 747s and as they were getting ready to dispose of the 707-420 fleet. Furthermore Tokyo to Moscow at Great Circle 4049 nm is nothing like London to LAX at 4741 nm.

The -320B gave a bit more range than the -320C as it didn't have the cargo door/strengthened floor structure; if they were that marginal that they couldn't use their existing -320Cs on the route then it must have been well beyond the old -420s.

[Seat62K]

I think BOAC 707-300s were also used on the London-Anchorage-Tokyo route and, perhaps, that the -436s never flew this route. Does anyone recall whether this was inaugurated earlier than the route via Moscow?

Thanks.

[The SSK]

Yes, much earlier.

A May 69 ABC which I happen to have handy has BA850 operating 3 days a week, the MOW-TYO operation started mid 1970s

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

I'm looking at my BOAC Staff/Confidential letter confirming my three-month posting to Sheremetievo, commencing September 24 1970, to do the Trans-Siberian flight-planning. The flight numbers were in fact BA860 eastbound and BA861 westbound.

As I've posted before, somewhere, the only aircraft on the route while I was in SVO, was the 'oddball' ex-Saturn -379C G-AWHU. The specially ordered -336Bs were delivered in 1971.

SVO - TYO was generally full-tanks, and it most certainly was, westbound! By the time I left, the S.G. of the fuel had increased such that we were getting an extra 1,000 kg in tanks, something like 71,000 kg.

[411A]

I don't believe that the 707-436 ever flew scheduled non-stop LHR-LAX,

You can believe all you want, however...you, yourself, would be quite mistaken.

Sorry, them's the facts.
Payload restricted, it most certainly is possible.
And...done, on numerous occasions.

Confirmed, by those in the know.
The rest?
Guessing, no more nor less.
No surprise, there.:ugh:

[Seat62K]

Are you sure Hotel Uniform was "ex-Saturn"?

Although ordered by Saturn, I think this particular 707 went straight to BOAC.

Am I mistaken?

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

I can't remember exactly how 'HU came to us. What I do remember is that initially it had a different flight director system - perhaps a Collins FD108? - and only a limited number of pilots were checked out on it. Hence 'oddball.'

For the three months I was in SVO, the only serious defect it came in with was the captain's windshield heat failing half-way across Siberia. It quickly frosted over, and the captain purloined a bottle of gin from the first class bar to smear across it in an attempt to clear it. A right mess ensued, and I think it became the first officer's landing! The fault was traced to the circuit breaker. Our solitary Air India ground engineer robbed one from the cove lighting in the passenger cabin, and off it went to LHR. Happy days!

[WHBM]

Although ordered by Saturn, I think this particular 707 went straight to BOAC.
Correct. Saturn ordered three 707-379C for delivery in Spring 1968 as N761U-3U. One went to straight Ethiopian, the second to BOAC, and the third hung around Seattle in Saturn colours for some months but finally went to Varig. Saturn also bought new and secondhand DC8s at the same time which lasted for some years, so they possibly lost a contract the 707s were intended for. G-AWHU came to BOAC in June 1968, so had been in stock for 2.5 years before the Trans-Siberian started.

Was the navigation equipment fit its reason for sole allocation to the route, rather than any range issue ? Would be interesting to hear about comparisons with the Aeroflot IL-62s on the Tokyo route, and indeed with their amazing Tu-114 contra-rotating prop aircraft that preceded them, swept wing and with a fuselage size comparable to the 707, and also about aviation in Moscow at that time. G-ALHI, do you have enough recollections for a separate thread ?

[arem]

'AWHU was a -379C series which meant it was Ordered by Saturn - it came to BOAC with a collins 108 system FD and a flightdeck layout similair to the 747 eg fire handles on the o/h panel, FD on the coaming etc - hence the requirement for a few specialised crews - which since it was destined to fly JFK/NAS/BDA/KIN schedules meant it was a very senior aircraft.

This lasted for six months and then the '747' flight deck was rearranged to standardised with the rest of the 707 fleet and was flown by anybody qualified to fly 336's.

[Seat62K]

Does anyone know whether there were similar crewing requirements for BOAC's other "odd" (for want of a better term) 707s (i.e., -ARWD and -ARWE, both -465s and ex-Cunard Eagle; and -ATZD, -365 and ex-British Eagle)?

Thanks.

[Mike6567]

I flew (as one of the co-pilots) the first leg of the second Siberian service (LHR-SVO BA860-002) in G-AXGW on 4 June 1970. We stopped in Moscow and took the return flight back (SVO-LHR BA861-002) on 5 June. The captain had done the first service a couple of days before and took sandwiches he had bought in Terminal 3. We thought this a little odd until we went out in Moscow to try to get a meal. I think some of the cabin crew on the first service had visa problems so didn't even make it to the hotel in town! I didn't think the BOAC 436 ever operated to LAX until I saw the postings here.

[Seat62K]

I'd love to see a scan of the timetable showing the nonstop service!

Can anyone help?

[WHBM]

.... a scan of the timetable showing the nonstop service ....
Timetable effective October 1 1962

Westbound (with unspecified tech stop) :

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/ba62/ba62-06.jpg

Eastbound (nonstop) :

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/ba62/ba62-08.jpg

[wayoutwest]

whbm.thanks did boac run a bus stop type service to frankfurt zurich tel aviv and teheran.my that couldnt happen today.did boac pick up many pax in frankfurt and zurich?.

[rog747]

a previous poster made a query re -420 engines, (EL AL?)
Photos: Boeing 707-430 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Condor/Boeing-707-430/1498134/L/&sid=2283e8ee761a196f2e75863e4101023c)

Photos: Boeing 707-441 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Rowan-Drilling/Boeing-707-441/0000200/L/&sid=dac481ad63b0e38ec194cda6714dabac)

they were all (-420) built with RR conway's (1st turbofans, actually)
hence the designation 707-420 to indicate thus,
small LE device, larger wing,
tail heightened, rudder boost and large ventral fin added.
(CAA requirement)

-420 orders
boac, cunard eagle, varig, el al, air india, lufthansa.
(please, i'm no anorak lol)
the best livery imho
Photos: Boeing 707-436 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/BOAC/Boeing-707-436/0277581/L/&sid=2283e8ee761a196f2e75863e4101023c)


-120 had jt3c turbojets (not transatlantic intended, but did op initially)
-120B had jt3d turbofans,
this was a very different machine. (later some with full span LE slats)

-138 jt3c (i think)
VH-JET#1 & Her Sisters (http://www.707.adastron.com/gallery/vh-eba-11.htm)
shows early image, stumpy tail, no ventral fin, and turbojets.

then they were converted, or newly built to -138B, with jt3d fans.
(all a Qantas order, shorter body than -120)
-138B had full span LE as per this foto, plus small ventral fin.
G-AVZZ - Laker Airways Boeing 707 Aircraft Photos - Glasgow - Prestwick @ Airplane-Pictures.net (http://www.airplane-pictures.net/image8175.html)

-220 had jt4a turbojets, with -120 body, for braniff only.

-320 had jt4a's, larger wing, transatlantic range, but had west coast range penalty.
-420 similar to -320 with RR conways for BOAC and others.

-320B had jt3d turbofans, some had full span LE (advanced) also many
differences in tail and fins etc.

707-320C ditto engines, the best range option.
all full span LE, major wing changes as 320B adv. extra e/exits.
opened up west coast non-stops, with range penalty on few occasions,
MTOW 151000kgs

when i was with BMA we fitted 212 Y seats to our 3 707-320C's for non-stop charter LGW-LAX/YVR (amongst other places)
erm, that was interesting !
never saw any shiny sliver on the oleo's on taxi-out from LGW


as poster 411a mentioned you also had different cowl inlets on jt3d's,
thin ones on older and larger cowl flaps on newer engines.
he is adamant that -420's operated to west coast non-stop on a regular basis but i dont think i can re-call this personally.
<his quote>
-436, yes normally operated non-stop LHR-LAX....just (as I have described previously).
In addition, AirFrance operated their 707-328's non-stop to SFO as well, from ORY....just.
Likewise, ORY-LAX...just, using JT4A-17 engines.
I remember these flights well, as they would request a direct routing LAX, as they were a tad short on fuel.
<unquote>

hope he can enlighten me re -436's as its too far!, thanks.

also someone queried 155000 as being max fuel?
(then the following posters confused this with mtow?)
the o/poster was talking about FUEL weight
(he also quoted that in pounds/lbs,!!)

the 707-320C mtow is 151000 kilos/kgs lol!!!

**note the pounds/lbs v kilos/kgs confusion here, and mtow/fuel max weights,**
(i hope you agree that some of you chaps dont be so quick to reply lol, thats how confusion happens in real-time, dangerous example of how easy it goes wrong?)

i personally really do not think BOAC 707-436's ever op'd non-stop to USA west coast unless they were very lightly loaded.
they were never scheduled to op non-stop.
EL AL did schedule TLV-NYC with theirs? (note the question mark)

i hope i did not bore you.
rog

[rog747]

British Pathe - AIRPORT NEWS (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=41416)
British Pathe - B.O.A.C. NEW AIR SERVICE (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=83213)
British Pathe - LONDON TO SYDNEY BOEING 707 ON NEW ROUTE (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=44639)
enjoy!

[WHBM]

EL AL did schedule TLV-NYC with theirs
I wonder at what time.

A 1964 El Al timetable I have here does not show any 707 non-stops, everything both ways 6-days-a-week operated through London/Paris. The next year, 1965, El Al got their first 707-320C (leased from World Airways) which would seem to give them better capability to do non-stops.

[Seat62K]

"WHBM" - Thank you!

"Wayoutwest" - I imagine that the services to Frankfurt and Zurich were the first legs of routes to India, the Far East and Africa. BOAC also flew to Rome. Until 747-236s were introduced (which could fly to places like Bombay nonstop) this continued; indeed I flew London-Frankfurt-Delhi-Kuala Lumpur-Hong Kong as late as August, 1978 and Singapore-Bombay-Frankfurt-London in April of that year (both on 747-136s).

[rog747]

quote
Wayoutwest" - I imagine that the services to Frankfurt and Zurich were the first legs of routes to India, the Far East and Africa. BOAC also flew to Rome. Until 747-236s were introduced (which could fly to places like Bombay nonstop) this continued; indeed I flew London-Frankfurt-Delhi-Kuala Lumpur-Hong Kong as late as August, 1978 and Singapore-Bombay-Frankfurt-London in April of that year (both on 747-136s).
unquote

i flew many times to Rome on BA 747-136's or a Super VC-10 to change the nav bags there for our (BMA) 707's we had on lease to DETA mozambique (late 70's upto the early 80's)

there were still a couple of BA 707-436's at that same time doing some shorthaul routes too.
Lisbon and Paris sometimes i recall.
the other -436's were sent over to BEA airtours (then British Airtours) for
jolly holidays to spain and sunny places.

[Spooky 2]

Hard to believe that BA would spend the time and money required to reconfigure the cockpit on the -379 to match their -336 configuration especially when the later model aircraft were somewhat superior in design.

Western Airlines went to Boeing in around 1968 and asked for a expedited order for what became the 707-347C. Boeing answer was "we can do it" but you'll have to take what we think is the best engineered configuration at the time. Fire handles on the overhead, hydraulics back at the FE station and a niceley equipped nav station. WAL took delievery of the first five and then cancled the contract for the last five which went to the RCAF as tankers.

[straightfeed]

July 23, 1973 BOAC G-ARRB B707-436 LAX to LHR 10 hrs 50 mins.

We paxed from LHR to LAX to take a 707-436 to DTW. Arrived at Ops to be asked to take the aircraft direct to LHR. Did it with no pax and a few positioning CCrew.
As the aircraft was pre INS the copilot had to scramble out of his seat after some 5 hours use his nav licence and then master the doppler and loran. All this plus the usual hold at LHR!
SFD

[Seat62K]

I'm puzzled as to the reason why a 707 would have been at LAX in 1973! (As far as I am aware, in that year LAX was served via JFK by Super VC10s.)
Was this the charter operation for Intercontinental Navigation?

[Captain Airclues]

Seat62K

As well as the VC10 via JFK there was also a 'non-stop' 707 service to LAX. However, it didn't always make it. I flew as passenger to LAX on 8/10/73 and we went via Winnipeg.

Dave

[straightfeed]

B707-436 in Lax in the early 70's.

We did a lot of affinity charters in the early 70's so that may be it.

Apart from the usual schedules some of the trips from my logbook for the 436 during '73 show-

LHR- LGW-Gander- Oakland
JFK-Zurich-LHR
LHR-Nice-LHR
LHR-Orly -JFK-Le Bourget- LHR
LHR-Dubrovnik-LHR
Gander-Montreal-Oakland.
LHR-Basel-LHR

All sort of died out by '74 then we went back to the usual BOAC schedules.

SFD

[WHBM]

BOAC got into Transatlantic charters (and to a lesser extent to the Far East) when the 747s came along and they were left with surplus 707 capacity, which ws reconfigured to Economy only. Pan Am and TWA were the same (I recall TWA 707s coming through Manchester, never a normal scheduled point for them). There was a specific subsidiary, BOAC Charter Ltd, set up to do the marketing of these, but the ops side was handled by the regular organisation.

Favourite points for BOAC were New York, Toronto, Los Angeles and Oakland (for some reason charters to the San Francisco area always went to Oakland). This traffic disappeared again as more 747s came along and they filled up the back with cheaper Economy fares. Some of the BOAC Economy-only 707s also got used at this time on some schedules, Toronto being a favourite for this.

It was difficult to keep to regular back-to-back flights in this market so there was a fair amount of unproductive positioning required to handle these flights, as described above.

Regarding the short-haul operations, in the early 1970s BEA, and then the Euro Division of BA, had a couple of shortfalls of capacity, and, besides using up whatever BEA Airtours had spare in the wintertime, which kept the Comet 4Bs on schedules from Heathrow well after you would think they had ended, they used both 707s and VC10s from BOAC (and later BA Overseas Division) on Euro routes. There were VC10s from Heathrow to places like Amsterdam and Rome as substitutes for sufficiently long that they appeared as such in some timetables.

[Tim Zukas]

"EL AL did schedule TLV-NYC with their [707-420s]? (note the question mark)"

My mistake-- I was thinking of Flight for 2 Jan 1964 that mentions El Al's summer-only nonstop being the longest scheduled flight in the world, by distance. But it does say it was eastward only, and no indication they ever did schedule it westward with -420s.

[davehowl]

Hi. I flew LHR to LAX on 9th January 1974 on G-AWHU (a 379C model with BOAC - the one with the upside down switches!) and it had a refuelling stop at Winnpeg during the sfternoon.

[ExSp33db1rd]

I know an ex BOAC 707 Captain, now aged 90 and put the question to him. He has just checked one of his many logbooks. Incidentally he achieved a speed record in the early 1960s flying LAX-LHR in 9hrs 15 minutes, (airborne not chock to chock). He says it might have been SF0-LHR though.

Back to the question. He operated BA 591 LHR-LAX on Jun 3rd 1962 in B707 G-APFG. It went via JFK which is where he got off. Strangely his next sector was from JFK-Kingston. He reckons he must have been supernumary on the BA591 as he has the Captain's name down as Buxton and not himself.

From my logbooks (Times GMT Not UTC !! )....

30th July 1962 G-APFM BA 581/643 London 15.15 - New York 23.30 = 8:15.
31st July 1962 G-APFM BA 581/643 New York 13.22 - San Francisco 19.27 = 6.05

10th August 1963 G-APFG BA JBH/7141 London 10.38 - Montreal 17.48 = 7.10
11th August 1963 G-APFL BA 591/307 Montreal 20.00 - Los Angeles 01.30 = 5.30

I have absolutely no recollection of these flights, but my logbooks suggest that the SFO service had a nightstop in New York, ( same aircraft, same service number ) and the LAX service continued same day through Montreal. The August flight from London appears to have been a charter for some reason, i.e. not a normal service number. No idea. Make of it what you will. By the way, I recall Captain Buxton, a quick flick through my logbook shows that I flew with him on 23rd August, 1966 London / Bermuda / Miami and return.

I do recall that on one of my early flights across the USA, New York to West Coast, all of us were "new" to the route, and in New York the Captain had bought a road map of the USA, and ticked off various items, cities, of interest as we flew along. A passenger visiting the forward toilet looked through the then open Flight Deck door, and said " Geez, don't you guys know the way ? "

[rog747]

"EL AL did schedule TLV-NYC with their [707-420s]? (note the question mark)"

My mistake-- I was thinking of Flight for 2 Jan 1964 that mentions El Al's summer-only nonstop being the longest scheduled flight in the world, by distance. But it does say it was eastward only, and no indication they ever did schedule it westward with -420s.

EL AL originally planned to introduce the RR Conway 707 in summer 1961. However, competition from other airlines already flying the new jets, thus EL AL was forced to advance its plans. Weekly Tel Aviv–New York service began on 8 January 1961, with a 707 leased from Varig of Brazil; from 19 February 1961, frequency increased to twice-weekly.
Their 707s required longer and stronger runways for takeoffs and landings than those commonly existing at the world’s commercial airports. To accommodate the new 707s, Lod Airport extended its main runway in November 1960 to 8,720ft.
On 7 May 1961 EL AL took delivery of its first of 3 new owned 707-458 (registered 4X-ATA) in a ceremony at Boeing Field, complete with blessing by rabbis and 250 attendees.

EL AL set three world records with 707 4X-ATA on 15 June 1961, during the return portion of its maiden passenger service—from New York to Tel Aviv: (1) the fastest flight from New York to Tel Aviv, 9hr 33min; (2) the first nonstop service between New York and Tel Aviv; and (3) the world’s longest nonstop scheduled commercial flight of 5,760nm. Piloted by Captains' Tom Jones and Danny Rosin, the aircraft carried 97 passengers at a cruising altitude of 41,000ft.

On 10 June the second 707 (4X-ATB) was delivered. During the 1961 summer season, six roundtrip Tel Aviv–New York services were operated a week with the two 707s. All flights called at either London or Paris, except for a weekly nonstop from New York to Tel Aviv with a scheduled flying time of 9hr 55min.
A Tel Aviv to New York nonstop was considered, which would have had to confront the unfavourable westerly winds; however, this was rejected because even under optimum conditions only about 30-40 passengers could have been carried. Initially, the 707s carried only a limited payload—up to 115 passengers and no freight, but it was soon discovered that most restrictions could be relaxed. The passenger limit was raised to 158 (except for 120 on the New York to Tel Aviv nonstop), although still without any cargo being carried.

On 15 February 1962 EL AL took delivery of its third 707-420 (4X-ATC). For that year’s summer schedule EL AL offered a new high of nine roundtrips per week to New York with 3 nonstop New York–Tel Aviv; the other flights were routed through European cities, including London, Paris, Amsterdam, Geneva, Rome and Athens.

By the mid-1960s EL AL carefully developed the practice of maximizing the utilization of each of its aircraft. In doing so, EL AL had to work with a very small Jet fleet—only seven aircraft—to service a far-ranging network (from New York in the west to Teheran in the east, and south to Johannesburg) The fleet was 3 RR 707-458, 2 720-058B, and 2 new 707-358B's.
The five B aircraft all now had PW JT3D-3B engines.

EL AL achieved one of the highest aircraft utilization rates in the industry. To illustrate, on a typical schedule for a single 720B during summer 1964, the aircraft would operate between 7am on Monday and 4:30pm Wednesday, Tel Aviv time, four roundtrips: to Zürich, Rome, Teheran and (via a European gateway) New York. During this 57½-hour period the aircraft accumulated about 40 hours flying time. It was then rolled into the hangar for an overnight maintenance check to be ready for an early flight the following morning. This was followed by a TLV-THR- NBO-JNB and return.
With the purchase of Boeing 720Bs in 1962, EL AL had restored its South Africa service. However, unfriendly countries forced EL AL to fly an unusually circuitous route, via Teheran, Iran, and the Persian Gulf. After the 1967 war, EL AL was able to resume direct flights via Nairobi to Johannesburg.

A 3rd 707-358B arrived in 1969 and 2 707-358C's in 1969 and 1970.
By 1970 daily average utilization of the Boeing fleet was an exceptionally high 12 hours. Considering that EL AL was then operating only 306 days a year because of the constraints of flying on the Jewish Sabbath and holy days, this translated into an actual utilization of nearly 15 hours per day. All aircraft were active during the busy April-October high season. Between October and March, one of the 10 Boeings would undergo a major overhaul.

The number of employees grew to nearly 4,000 by the end of 1970, including 64 flight crews, and about 90% of the staff were Israeli nationals. Pilots were typically recruited directly out of the Israeli Air Force. The average age at which pilots would make captain fell to 30, among the youngest in the industry.
By early 1971 the 707s and 720Bs had served EL AL faithfully and safely for almost 10 years. They became the proud symbol of an airline that continued to gain acceptance as one of the most efficient in the world. Soon, however, these aircraft, like their prop predecessors, would have to relinquish their proud position.
Already industry leader Pan Am and other major airlines had entered a new era—that of the wide-body Boeing 747. EL AL would not be far behind.

Their first two new 747-258B entered service in 1971 on the TLV-LHR-JFK route. EL AL decided on a brand new colour scheme for their new 747's and likewise (like Condor for instance) it's first 747 4X-AXA was delivered with only three upper deck windows (usually associated with the original -100 series); however it was indeed a -258B series, and the additional upper deck windows were added soon after delivery.
The second EL AL 747 was delivered, like Condor's with 10 windows.
Sources EL AL museum

[DH106]

The -420 series also had the 'old' style single nosewheel door, a la 707-120 / 720, which always struck me as odd, considering it was supposed to be a re-engined development of the -320.

[rog747]

The -420 series also had the 'old' style single nosewheel door, a la 707-120 / 720, which always struck me as odd, considering it was supposed to be a re-engined development of the -320.

Yes the quirky things we all noted lol

All 707-120/138/220/320/420 >> Basically all non-fan 707 and 720, and all fan jet 120B & 720B models had the old style single nose wheel door, but with a few late build exceptions - some of the last 120B and 138B's and 441 types had the newer double NG doors.

Some early build 707-320B fan jets just had the single NG door and some also had a large ventral fin (removed later) -- these 707's were the first for PA NW TW LH SAA LY and AF.
There were also very early build 707-320C models and but I do not think the very first ones had the single NG door.

[WHBM]

The pioneer 707-120s and 720s sold well, especially to the US trunk airlines, but the JT3C turbojet engines were almost immediately outclassed. Boeing introduced a significant modification to refit JT3D fan engines, which soon afterwards became available, and many were converted; American did a huge conversion of all their fleet, some of which were only a few months old.

The first intercontinental version, the -320, with JT4A turbojets, was likewise soon supplanted by the JT3D fan version -320B. Apparently the Boeing sales team had been furious with the engineers for making the original -120s so readily upgradeable, as they had anticipated selling whole new aircraft instead, especially as demand was dropping off after the initial bulge. It was determined that the -320B would have sufficient airframe mods over the -320 that engine upgrades were not possible.

[707AF]

In addition, AirFrance operated their 707-328's non-stop to SFO as well, from ORY....just.
Likewise, ORY-LAX...just, using JT4A-17 engines.
I remember these flights well, as they would request a direct routing LAX, as they were a tad short on fuel.
.

sorry but AF did not fly SFO on those days . I am tracing back the non stop routes of the BOAC 707-436 . They were scheduled nonstop on LAX LHR on general timetable dating from the early 60s . In my opinion both 707-436 , 707-328 could have flown Europe from LAX non stop