Jet* NZ OTP [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Fruet Mich

14th Jun 2009, 05:16

I'm afraid Burty, if skycare (Air National) had done a great job, as you claim with Pac Blue, they would still have their contract. They didn't. It's a very different scenario loading a can system on A320's to that of loading a B1900D or J32.

It will be interesting to see if the can loading system will work domestically in NZ? All it takes is one passenger to not show and then the bag search begins!

Good luck to Skycare, hope it improves. It does make a mockery of how Bruce Buchannon was spouting on how Jetconnect was so terrible at domestic services. At least Qantas was able to put their valuable high end customers on Air NZ when running late or cancelled. I don't think Air NZ will share the love if Jetstar ask for the same favours when using another contractor? People in Glass houses shouldn't throw stones Mr Buchannon.

"If ya find a cheaper flight, we'll beat it by 10%!!" But we might be an hour late. she'll be right mate, no worries!!

pigdriver

14th Jun 2009, 05:55

Mate I dont mean to state the obvious, but the "can system" works in most countries, so I am sure it will even work in little new zuland!!! It works in aust, and here in asia very well, and yes if A pax doesn't turn up, he/she as well as the bags are offloaded, and it only takes a few minutes.Its much faster to find a bag with the can system as oposed to the old 737 throw em in system. Everything is barcoded, so the ground crew know exactly which can the bags are in. No big deal !!!! The ground crews, once used to the system will turn an aircraft around that has cans alot faster than the one that does not.

Fruet Mich

14th Jun 2009, 06:29

I guess in time Jetstar will prove me wrong Piggy. I'm not sure if the computerised can system is working that well right now? I would have thought that an experienced operator like Jetstar that operates the can system in Australia and Asia would have it suss'd and all the problems ironed out by now. Or perhaps it's a nasty hangover by giving the ground services to the cheapest bidder? Gotta love the low cost economics ay.

I overheard a couple of Air NZ execs having a chuckle in the terminal the other day as they observed the Jetstar loading process explaining it was exactly why Air NZ don't operate A320's domestically in NZ. Because of the can sytem. But I guess the Aussies who operate in Aus and Asia know best about NZ domestic ops ay.

pigdriver

14th Jun 2009, 06:38

Not going to get into a childish arguement about the pros and cons of cans, but as it works everywhere else in the world without many problems, one would think even the kiwis may be able to cope with them...
Then again, we all know how backward enzed is, so maybe not??!!!.....
One would wonder why nz domestic ops are soooooo different to everywhere else ??????
Its probably safe to say that the main problem is more likely to lie with ground crews not being used to the system yet, and the lack of training they recieved prior to the operation starting...

Fruet Mich

14th Jun 2009, 06:50

Yeah I agree, lets not be childish, thanks for your enlightenment :)

burty

14th Jun 2009, 08:02

With the expansion of PB services through Wellington Menzies could actually justify establishing there own operation here, hence the change.

Artificial Horizon

14th Jun 2009, 22:19

This will just be teething problems, i currently fly containerised A320's and thee is no issues with this sort of loading.

c100driver

15th Jun 2009, 00:18

AH
What sort of turn times are you looking at with your operation?

Jetstar are aiming for 25 - 30 minutes

17171a

15th Jun 2009, 04:24

Flew Jetstar this weekend.
Delayed 1 hour one way and 2 hours the other. Because of the return delay nearly didn't get home because of Fog.
Ok, they will be having teething problems, but it hasn't gotten better from day 1.
Because of the delays the terminals and security can't cope with the extra people having to hang around for hours. There are no staff in the departure areas and the monitors display times and gates that must be just guessed at.
Once on board the crew were friendly and everything went as planned.
Qantas managed to hold on to some loyal business travellers while they cancelled lots of flights, Jetstar while be losing them fast. From the comments floating around they are not earning themselves any repeat business.
I read a report that reckons PacBlue will be out of NZ in 18 months.
If Jetstar doesn't sort it out soon they will be gone with Pacblue and ANZ the big winners!

Pamelah Andersen

15th Jun 2009, 07:01

Like a mudguard - glossy gray surface, cr:ouch:p underneath.

flyingspikes

16th Jun 2009, 23:38

Well as someone who has flown with them 6 times already domestically, I thought that I'd point out a few little things Ive most certainly noticed:

Firstly, their turnaround times, they really do need to be around 45 minutes. From what I can tell, the big delay seems to be cleaning and catering the aircraft. Disembarkation takes around 6 mins (normal) and boarding takes around 14 (well above average- air nz take 15 to do 133 pax, could be the dual processing they do at the gate...) That leaves 10 minutes for cleaning, and essentially 16 minutes for safety checks to be done under the current routine which should be do-able...but for whatever reason its not.

Then there is this mysterious paperwork which seems to hold everything up once everyone is seated (that will probably shorten the turnaround once the kinks have been ironed) - The cans issue, while they were an issue on the 1st flight, dont seem to be causing much of an issue now, they are generally locked and loaded while pax are still boarding, and havent so far been delayed due to them.

Now the reason im rambling on about all of these things is that currently my 'average' delay time is around 75minutes (longest being 4 hours on the first day). And to add insult to injury, I have arrived at Chistchurch Airport 45 mins before my flight is scheduled to leave and only to see my plane landing on the previous turnaround, that is it has to do an auckland return trip before coming to fetch me. The jetstar ground crew are also very unwilling to shift a jetflex passenger as 'check in closed 2 hours ago for that flight because that was when it was scheduled to leave' Yup. so if you check the website and see your flight is delayed by 3 hours and are smart enough to go to the airport two hours later, your gonna miss that flight. Think they shall be waiving goodbye to many business contracts in the near future.

On the other hand, everything goes very smoothly, no big hassles at check-in (so long as you meet all the conditions),boarding is orderly, and flights are uneventful (ill let you know when i first get diverted away from queenstown (15 trips there in next two months on them...sure to come a cropper at least once!))and you wouldnt know most people have only been working for a week. Very professional in that sense. Just been notified of their new-new schedule...will be an interesting phonecall trying to reorganise 84 sectors....

goodspeed

17th Jun 2009, 08:40

New-new schedule..... ah. That would explain the last 2 days AKL-CHC return being cancelled? (Just what one of the radio stations throws in as part of the traffic report).

flyingspikes

17th Jun 2009, 10:45

Yes, well as reported this morning by stuff.co.nz:
Thousands caught in Jetstar rejig | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/new-zealand/2506442/Thousands-caught-in-Jetstar-rejig)

Fair Use:
"Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan said the new schedule was part of a refining process and would be "more robust and convenient for passengers".

Flights in and out of Wellington would be moved by between five minutes and 1 1/2 hours. The 4.15pm service to Christchurch would now leave at 2.45pm.

However, some Auckland passengers who had booked in to fly direct to Christchurch were in for a five-hour wait, with the 11.40am service moving to 4.40pm."

Interestingly havent hear anything from JQ themselves despite one of my flights leaving next week, tho sure enough looking on their website, and I only have 1 return Wellington flight that the schedule has stayed the same on!

BAZZA BOEING

18th Jun 2009, 05:46

All this talk of a new schedule is strange as they have had these changed flight times out since 23/04/2009 as I have had a list of them for ages. I have the new schedule which runs from 24 June through til the 24 October. Looking through the changes outlined by their CEO there are also changes made to the revamped timetable so even that cant be correct.

Cheers Bazza

27/09

18th Jun 2009, 09:33

"Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan said the new schedule was part of a refining process and would be "more robust and convenient for passengers".

How stupid does Mr Buchanan think the travelling public is?

Jetstar took over from Qantas, surely they already knew what schedule was already working. Why would they need to refine it to "make it more robust and convenient"?

Talk about spin.

float flyer

18th Jun 2009, 09:53

OTP, wouldn't have anything to do with crap wx in eNZed, and lack of frequency for JQ...

Oh and is eNZed really big enuff for 3? And no, I do not work for any of them!

Just an interested observer.:ok:

murdoch_disliker

19th Jun 2009, 00:33

Re that chap going to Queenstown all those times, from what I understand:
- Jetstar regulated by CASA so their procedures/operation not monitered by NZCAA
- Hold CHC as the alternate instead of the usual Invercargill (4-5 hr bus ride compared to 2 hrs from Invers)
- Minimums much higher I am guessing.
- Not a lot of local experience into ZQN; terrain, wx, local traffic.

So I would choose AirNZ for all those reasons no matter what the price difference.
When the weather is good, either operator OK I guess

flyingspikes

19th Jun 2009, 11:14

Thanks very much for your reply!

Unfortunately these tickets were booked rather far in advance(ticketed now as Qantas flight 4544 I believe now), and will probably end up biting the bullet and staying down there, was scheduled to commute every other day(with winterfest coming up and all), but with a track record and potential for meltdown, think money saved from flights could be put the well use at a local pub and a nice hotel room.

Only 5 months to go before our domestic contract with Qantas ends, and then its off to Air NZ for me. Was even told by one wiseguy from Qantas over the phone that I could expect comparable service to Qantas by Jetstar...all there was to ask was if he meant the delays!

Have fun everyone,
Sorry for hijacking a pilot forum for this!

TMAK

21st Jun 2009, 00:04

Flying Spikes,

in relation to earlier question on turn times....

in Oz we do the turns in 25-30 min over a hundred times a day...so it can be done. This is probably more about new operation and new staff etc (from Ground staff to cabin crew and some pilots....all getting familiar with the system). I hope this begins to improve in coming weeks. The containerised aircraft is faster to turn than bulk loaded unless of course there is almost no load for a bulk load type.

The paperwork is probably the pilots doing the load sheet etc at the end of the turn...on NZ for example this comes from a seperate load control department.

With delays....my understanding is that when flights are delayed they remain open until the same time as normal (eg -30 or -45 etc) prior to the new estimated time. So if you were within these timelines you should be able to get on. All of this will evolve as so many brand new staff/operations on 10Jun begin to get familiar with all the technicalities.

ZQN will be a problem with wx until the aircraft are fitted with the all the goodies they need.

RadioSaigon

21st Jun 2009, 00:50

ZQN will be a problem with wx until the aircraft are fitted with the all the goodies they need...

Horse-hockey.

What they need are experienced and proficient crews. QF were cancelling flights in & out of NZQN with a bit of wx hanging at the head of the lake, around NZGY and NZQN CAVOK. Utter nonsense. That wx could take 4-5 hours or more to get down the lake -if at all, but that was the basis upon which flights were being diverted/cancelled as recently as Mar. to my personal knowledge.

Some bizarre approaches too. One flight I was on extended "downwind" to NZLX!!! Have a look at the AirNZ drivers. Once they're in the Wakatipu basin, the flight is contained within that geographical area with no need to make these nonsensical approaches.

That sort of procedure/behaviour is quite simply going to lose custom. Pax waiting for a flight that has been cx/diverted "due wx" are still on the ground watching the airline they didn't book on making their schedule with ease. Guess who they're going to book with next time!

plainmaker

21st Jun 2009, 02:43

Airline leaves All Blacks fans stranded - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10579751)

Seems like the Kiwi's will need educating the 'Jetstar' way. :{

Not good press to get just as they are starting the new brand. I was amused at the somewhat aggresive stance of the Jet* PR person. :ouch:

Interesting they were able to get on PB at a reasonable fare - looks like there is a bit of spare capacity.

Plainmaker

TMAK

21st Jun 2009, 03:19

Radio...

I guess you are aware then that the NZ aircraft are fitted with more advance RNP equipment to allow them down below 4,000 where JQ and probably Jetconnect aircraft do not have this equipment as yet.

Hence any wx below this prevents the airlines from legally being allowed to proceed. Some JQ or NZ pilots can probably give a more advanced technical perpsective on this.

Its not a case of inexperienced pilots...I think many pilots are from JQ in Aust at moment...so you will find quite high experience levels in many cases.

jism

21st Jun 2009, 05:28

Would have thought $180 pp quite steep these days

RadioSaigon

21st Jun 2009, 05:30

...you will find quite high experience levels in many cases...

No doubt, quite experienced in the airframe, IFR and RPT -but mountain flying? Flying into areas with severe terrain limitations? Strikes me that perhaps not. If JQ expect to compete in that area, then they have to have pilots that are able to step up to the plate. Once they've finished the procedure over SH, they need to be able to play in that environment, as their competitors do. From what I've seen, they're a fair way away from that. Extending all the way out to NZLX before making a "base" turn is not going to cut the mustard -unless they're prepared to get down & dirty in the gorge with a low ceiling, the ATR's and the VFR traffic. Can't see that happening. Likewise, cancelling/diverting because of a little wx at NZGY isn't doing it -and all the boxes of tricks in the world ain't going to make you look any better when it's severe CAVOK at NZQN.

framer

21st Jun 2009, 09:53

No doubt, quite experienced in the airframe, IFR and RPT -but mountain flying? Flying into areas with severe terrain limitations? Strikes me that perhaps not.Saigon ,A lot of those captains at JC have massive amounts of experience into queenstown, several of them have been doing it in 737's since 737's first ever went in there. One of them designed the figure 8 visual pattern that is still in use today. Most of them have been flying all over NZ for many many years. Just because it's a red tail doesn't mean they're Ausi's fresh off the boat.
Once they've finished the procedure over SH, they need to be able to play in that environment, as their competitors do Their competitors are doing a different approach using RNP.They can legally remain IMC much longer. When JC/ J* get to 4000ft they have to be able to remain visual for the entire figure 8 pattern , not just a track to the field.
What they need are experienced and proficient crews. No, what they need is modern equipment to allow them lower minimums. The current min viz required is 15km and thats in all directions in that basin.
Pretty cock-sure attitude from someone who obviously doesn't operate that equipment into that environment.
regards, Framer.

blacksmoke

21st Jun 2009, 11:49

From what I have heard, many of the J* crews have plenty of experience in mountainous areas. ( quite a few of the J* nz guys have operated into Qtown anyway) To make comments about needing "experienced" crews is just rubbish.

murdoch_disliker

21st Jun 2009, 23:04

Framer, you have hit the nail on the head. Many JC crews have been flying into ZQN consistently for many years now.
It is quite arrogant and dismissive of J* that they did not require these people's services (ie not allowing JC CHC based crew to take same positions in J*, they had to interview etc like anyone off the street).
So with the exception of a few ex-Ansett NZ and maybe 1 or 2 ex-JC crew, no real experience into ZQN.
If the operation was overseen by NZCAA would have been a bit tricky to get this operation approved I am guessing

belowMDA

22nd Jun 2009, 01:22

Yeah framer I suspect he was refering to the jetstar crews being inexperienced in Queenstown.
Being inexperienced is to a degree mitigated by training. I have heard, and am happy to be corrected, that jetstar are doing no QN specific training in the sim. If this is the case then I think it exposes an arrogance in the management of the airline. I have said else where that I know QN isn't the only place in the world that is challenging, but it's still challenging. Therefore I believe it demands some respect and preparation. Air NZ crews go though 2 famils 2 sims 4 training flights and then another sim all purely on QN before being released to operate there, and there are also two training sims per year for all QN qualified crew. If jetstar aren't doing any, then I will actively discourage people from flying on them.

framer

22nd Jun 2009, 01:50

Yeah framer I suspect he was refering to the jetstar crews being inexperienced in Queenstown.

I don't think so, he specifically referred to operations "as recently as March"

QF were cancelling flights in & out of NZQN with a bit of wx hanging at the head of the lake, around NZGY and NZQN CAVOK. Utter nonsense. That wx could take 4-5 hours or more to get down the lake -if at all, but that was the basis upon which flights were being diverted/cancelled as recently as Mar. to my personal knowledge.

These operations were JC not J*.
I agree with Murdoch D that J* only have themselves to blame if they do have incidents in QN due to inexperienced crew when the crew were there for the taking, they just needed to be paid enough and type rated.
Below MDA, literally months before it was announced that J* would operate domestically in NZ I had a friend come back from the sim center and tell me that J* crews were there doing QN training.It was obvious then what was on the cards.
JC too required a specific classroom course, observing flights, simulator session, 3 flights in with a training captain and then one check ride in. Then also recurrent sims altho these were mixed in with your normal sims.
Framer

pigdriver

22nd Jun 2009, 07:46

I think the jitconnect guys have more to worry about than J*running around the country.Have heard a few qantas checkers not real happy at all that they have to train these guys on the 737-8 very soon, whilst their own flying is reducing. ( actually delaying 10 more 737-800 as well) I think there will be some very interesting cockpit chatter going on shortly??!!!

nike

23rd Jun 2009, 12:11

Of all the things to do to announce your arrival on the scene - stopping a kiwi from getting to an AB's match. In NZ. Not smart. Not smart at all.

Guess we'll wait for the appropriate tui ad.

Cypher

23rd Jun 2009, 23:30

I see Air NZ is out for the quick buck...

Cheap Air NZ fares cash in on rival's woes - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10580295)

So whats the yield on a full Jetstar flight? $10?

27/09

23rd Jun 2009, 23:44

Jetstars performance in NZ so far smacks of a we know the whats best attitude.

It is a classic example of the saying I heard many years ago. "You can always tell an Aussie,....... but you can never tell them very much"

Sand dune Sam

24th Jun 2009, 00:04

27/9...From what I have heard through mates in Australia, J* did the same thing in Australia years ago when they started..you cant blame them, they are only doing what QF/J* mgmnt are telling them...if you want to be a smart arse and ****can Australians on pprune, at least back it up with some research for what it's worth....

J* is around to stay whether people at QF or in NZ like it or not..get used to it.....

myturn

25th Jun 2009, 07:58

90 plus % OTP yesterday and so far today. Looks like the sched change has made the difference. First schedule was a complete stuff up, surely who ever put it in place should stand up and take it on the chin? Which way is the door? MT

fourholes

25th Jun 2009, 09:36

Not trying to inflame anything here, BUT Sand dune Sam, You might want to lighten up, Us kiwis' hear those absolutely hilarious sheep jokes everyday. Get over yourself, It was a joke I am sure:}

distracted cockroach

25th Jun 2009, 09:48

Pigdriver wrote "I think the jitconnect guys have more to worry about than J*running around the country.Have heard a few qantas checkers not real happy at all that they have to train these guys on the 737-8 very soon, whilst their own flying is reducing. ( actually delaying 10 more 737-800 as well) I think there will be some very interesting cockpit chatter going on shortly??!!!"

You reckon the QF checkies are that unprofessional? Either they all refuse to do it and follow through, or they do it and shut-up. Any "interesting cockpit chatter" would not be conducive to a professional or safe flight deck environment. Air NZ trained a lot of Freedom pilots on the A320 without any problems.
Surely it will be contracted work, paid for by Jetconnect......why would anyone blame the Jetconnect pilots for what is going on in Qantas Australia?
I'm afraid the Qantas pilots made that particular bed when they did nothing when Jetconnect first started...not to mention J*
Something about crying over spilt milk whilst the gate swings open and the horse has bolted (if you will excuse my mixed metaphors)

Lineboy4life

25th Jun 2009, 10:44

jokestar sucks - lets just use em for a wee whiles longer to keep our commuting costs with ANZ down :}

Interesting business plan - go to a foreign country, make an absolute ass of yerself, let the locals take advantage of your offshore subsidized low fairs for a few years (months/weeks) in the hope that one day you'll gain market share & be able to charge those same broke-ass clientèle a decent wack, don't think so!:ugh:

these twits are giving ryanair a bad name:ooh:

Captain Condom

25th Jun 2009, 20:00

Heard a Jet* flight in Wellington yesterday calling for taxi clearance, with 21 POB. Those sort of numbers will make it easier for them to get off the gate on time.

Unfortunately though they will be here to stay. As a mate at JitConnect said, Qantas have very deep pockets so after several months of marketing, specials etc passenger numbers will rise. Maybe though over the next few years T&Cs for staff will improve (as happened at JC). Presumably Qantas will then come up with an even lower cost airline.

Capt_SNAFU

25th Jun 2009, 23:00

Distracted cockroach, I think the check captains will get on with the job (though not particularly loving the idea) as it is what they are paid and like to do. What I think the QF training dept is worried about is the sniping (or lack of any input) from the jump seat from the QF mainline F/Os who are not in training dept. F/Os who have to be there by law sitting there to watch someone be trained to potentially reduce their opportunities.

kiwipilot02

26th Jun 2009, 00:39

ZQN flight diverted to DUD today.

Artificial Horizon

26th Jun 2009, 08:12

I don't quite understand the attitude here. Jetstar is being slagged off for having such a bad OTP during startup. They recognise that the schedule they have put in place is a bunch of **** so they change it and are now averaging 90% ontime. They get slagged off for not having enough experience to operate into the extremes of ZQN, the crews (who are more than likely very capable) make operational decisions on the day which includes at times diverting due weather etc...The experience will come soon enough. Jetstar is introducing into New Zealand a low cost model (similar to easyjet) which will eventually provide the population with 'cheap' fares, reliable service and most of all safe. Jetstar puts a package on the table which many consider to be below industry standard but obviously is good enough for numerous people to consider, these things have a history of finding an equilibrium i.e. If the package is so bad, no one will sign up, Jetstar initially pitched it to low and had to up the contract conditions, albeit slightly, to attract enough candidates. Earning $80,000+ as an FO and $140,000+ as a Captain is a reasonable wage in any industry in New Zealand, just because Air New Zealand pays more does not mean that this is the correct amount for all airlines to pay, Air New Zealand crews are on to a good thing and should enjoy it whilst it lasts, after we all emerge from the current financial woes most airlines including the big boys will have to be far more stream lined and cost effective than they are now if they are to compete in the future.

Cypher

26th Jun 2009, 09:28

Quite right AH,

we shouldn't be slagging off Jet* for it's OTP, it's startup problems, it's 'lack' of Queenstown experience, it's rescheduling...

We should be slagging it off for it's lack of communication and customer service as the New Zealand public are now finding out.

Too right.. I don't use Jet* nor do I ever intend to in the future....

Artificial Horizon

26th Jun 2009, 11:17

Cypher,

Quite right, this is the basis of my whole point. If you find them to be fundamenttaly offensive then you can use your consumer 'choice' and don't fly with them. Having seen over 10 years of people saying that 'Ryanair' will never stay in business because of their crappy customer service, constant requirement to adjust the bottom line and thier reputation as all around 'bad eggs' I am just saying that this model is successful and (most) people will go with whoever offers the cheapest fare. Afterall Ryanair is probably the most cash rich airline in the world at the moment. Most problems with Jetstar at the moment are the result of being a 'new' operation that would effect ANY start-up, it will get better over time perhaps with the exception of the perceived 'bad' customer service. Watch that 'Airline' programme any day of the week and you will witness EasyJet customers being turned away daily as they missed check-in by 30 seconds, customers angry about cancelled/diverted services. The point is people will keep coming back. And finally after working the last 5 years for one of the worlds big 'Legacy' carriers I can assure you 'bad' customer service is not the exclusive field of the 'low cost' carrier. Why don't we have newspaper articles about Air NZ passengers being refused check-in, having horrible experiences..... simply because it isn't newsworthy, just as Jetstars day to day running won't be newsworthy in 6 weeks time.

27/09

27th Jun 2009, 05:50

AH

Where did you get those wage figures from? The figures I have heard quoted are much less than you state, at least for FO's and there is a salary sacrifice for 3 years.

As for the OTP and schedule changes, they took over an existing operation, they must have had some idea as to what schedule would work. So far their approach to things seems very arrogant.

It's going to take a long while to claw back the damage of the first couple of weeks.

framer

27th Jun 2009, 07:23

What I think the QF training dept is worried about is the sniping (or lack of any input) from the jump seat from the QF mainline F/Os who are not in training dept. F/Os who have to be there by law sitting there to watch someone be trained to potentially reduce their opportunities
I have witnessed first hand the QF mainline f/o's in this exact situation. They behaved like normal rational Ausi blokes. Gave good advice, enjoyed good conversation and jokes and generally were very helpful to the trainee. You may think there will be sniping from the back seat but I don't. They are mostly too smart to blame an individual industry colleague for way the industry is operating now. Too professional as well, I mean seriously, can you imagine smart comments comming from the jump seat on an operational sector??? I certainly never saw it. Why do you think it will happen? Is that what you'd do?

Pamelah Andersen

4th Jul 2009, 22:19

The locals in the paper are referring to the outfit as One Star. ;)

"Discover Life beyond the Bombay Hills" seems a little ambitious given the track record. Mangere would be a start.

:ok:

Cypher

5th Jul 2009, 18:52

Dirty tricks claim by Jetstar chief - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10582629)

Apparently it's all Air NZ's fault....:ugh:

27/09

5th Jul 2009, 23:06

Certainly been a horror start for "One Star". Very hard to see how AirNZ can be blamed for that.

I'm still struggling to figure out why they want to compete in an over supplied market. What's their game plan?

pigdriver

5th Jul 2009, 23:56

I think scare nz is ****e scared of J*. If I was trying to run an old overstaffed mess of an airline throughout a time of economic turmoil, I would be very worried what they could do. Yes they have had a shocker start to nz ops, but if I remember correctly, their start in aust was no better. Not saying I like what the low cost airlines are doing,but as a person who commutes regularly, I do travel with them alot, and they certainly do provide a reasonable product for the price. I would rather travel with J* as opposed to ryanair or virginblue.
Yes the kiwi market is already flooded with airlines trying to make a buck, but my money is on pacblue and j* getting larger, and airnz smaller...( Just like whats happening in aust with QF)

blacksmoke

6th Jul 2009, 00:10

I think artificial horizon and pigdriver are on the money..
Give them another month of two, and it wont be news worthy any more.
Like em or lump em, the low cost carriers are here to stay.

Cypher

6th Jul 2009, 03:20

I disagree.. (theres something original on PPrUNE!)

Air NZ is here to stay. JetPox can't compete with their regional network. No other carrier allows you to go Oamaru to L.A relatively seamlessly.. ( I use the term seamlessly... loosely) I don't see PoxStar flights going to Napier / Nelson etc.

Air NZ feeds it's main trunks routes with it's regionals.. which in turn also feed the international... Airline networking 101...

Porn* last time I looked only does the trunk routes and unless they have turboprops servicing the regional ports, I think Air NZ is pretty safe.

One* only really does point to point.. no flow thru traffic really, unless you count WLG-AKL-SYD but who want to do that!

Sure frequency on the Air NZ network may decrease to better suit the lower demand but I hardly think Air NZ would be too worried..

However with BB trying to blame Air NZ for their crappy start.. that reeks of desperation...

(Yes.. I'm trying to use every Jet* moniker I've heard in the last 3 weeks...)

27/09

6th Jul 2009, 05:05

Yes the kiwi market is already flooded with airlines trying to make a buck, but my money is on pacblue and j* getting larger, and airnz smaller...( Just like whats happening in aust with QF)

With particular reference to "Just like what happened in Aust with QF"

QF is the major player there just like AirNZ is in NZ. QF and JQ work hand in hand in Oz, QF has replaced it's own aircraft with JQ aircraft. I don't see that sort of thing happening here, other than the QF routes that One Star has taken over here in NZ there is nothing else for them to be given.

JQ will have to make their own way here tho I don't rule out QF propping them up if they needed to.

retired astronaut

6th Jul 2009, 09:08

Tried jet* with frequent flyer points (would not like to pay money)ZQN/CHC recently and was pleasantly surprised as we were only 2 hours late at destination. Aircraft arrived 1 hour late into ZQN but managed to fritter away an exta hour stuffing around ,on top of normal turn around time. Very comfortable new aircraft, but staff useless as they told lies and were very inefficient. The lies came from technical crew as capt announced that they only had one set of stairs as ZQN had a sloping apron and the forward stairs did not reach aircraft.The stairs were having to be rebuilt. Hence only SLF through back door causing delay. Next delay of 20 minutes after we were all seated because passanger tally did not balance with boarding passes and we were all counted at least 10 times by most flight attendants who obviosly could not count. Aircraft quite full so had they never heard of counting empty seats? Numbers are smaller and would have been helpful for them. However the above are minor points and the biggest problem was check in. Passengers were very early in queue but staff took about 5 minutes to process each passenger.Perhaps profits come from excess baggage as I was invited to check in another bag for a fee but I had to disappoint as I didnt have one and was under allowable weight. Are staff on bonus for this revenue collecting? Many passengers in the line were sitting on the floor waiting as the queue was stationary for long periods of time. This is probably where the shut out problems arise at other airports as there seems there is some problem processing passengers. Looked like lack of staff training so hope that will improve. All in all not a good experience so I will be patronizing Air NZ whenever I can. Air NZ has great staff and is a very efficient airline with latest navigation equipment as opposed to this Aussie upstart.

HardCorePawn

6th Jul 2009, 22:09

Yes.. I'm trying to use every Jet* moniker I've heard in the last 3 weeks...

You forgot DeathStar... :E

Yes the kiwi market is already flooded with airlines trying to make a buck, but my money is on pacblue and j* getting larger, and airnz smaller...( Just like whats happening in aust with QF)

I think you seem to be forgetting that in AU, QF are purposely giving business to Jet*.... I don't see AirNZ doing the same thing here

empacher48

7th Jul 2009, 00:19

I don't think a lot of people realise that in NZ there are three domestic airlines for a population about the same size of Sydney's. Three airlines might be a little bit of an overkill here.

tartare

7th Jul 2009, 00:52

NZ will be pulling every single dirty trick they can to undermine Jetstar. They will have the co-operation of compliant media people - who regularly accept free flights from NZ. Just ask the flight attendants who host a lot of these media trips.
But that strategy will only work for so long.

27/09

7th Jul 2009, 01:57

But that strategy will only work for so long.

What strategy is that? Asking flight attendants perhaps.

I think you give Air Nz far more credit for doing some things than they actually do.

Jetstar hasn't needed any help so far to generate bad publicity, they've done it all on their own.

You would think an airline that has been operating for several years, which has the infrastructure suppport from an airline like Qantas and took over an existing network would have been capable of a better performance than Jetstar has done so far in New Zealand

distracted cockroach

8th Jul 2009, 20:15

I agree Air NZ should be and will be worried, that's just good business practice. Likewise I can't think of one good reason they shouldn't do everything in their power to undermine their competitors.
Air NZ isn't the "old overstaffed mess of an airline" it once was, so it's not going to sit back fat, dumb and happy saying "we are Air NZ, nothing can happen to us".
Three domestic carriers is too many for a country the size of NZ, but it'd be a risky bet to wager Air NZ will be the one to go! Meanwhile, as a consumer, enjoy the cheap fares while they last.

Indianzz

8th Jul 2009, 22:59

Meanwhile, as a consumer, enjoy the cheap fares while they last.

Only if you're a main route customer - those of us based in the regions remained screwed by higher fares and indifferent service.

belowMDA

9th Jul 2009, 01:43

Well Mr Indian the infrastructure costs etc to fly pax into the regions is borne across fewer passengers so it does actually cost more to fly you. People hold Pac Blue and Jetstar up to be these great consumer martyrs, taking on big brother yet all they do is cherry pick the easiest and most profitable routes ie the main trunk.

Indianzz

9th Jul 2009, 02:17

Below MDA

Totally agree with you on a simple business model basis, but we in the regions suffer twofold.

(1) There is no competition, so therefore no motivation for the service provider to match fares equitably to the cost base.

(2) The higher margins gained from the regions actually enable Air NZ to better confront any competition on the main truck routes from which we rarely gain any advantage.

Sure the new entrants cherry pick, but imagine what the current main trunk fares would be if only Air NZ (or any other single provder) were operating those routes - be interesting to do a comparison of say NAC's 1977 CHC - AKL fare versus the lowest available today on that route.

We in the regions have to accept the situation as it exists (and probably always will) but we don't have to like it.

pigdriver

9th Jul 2009, 02:43

This is getting very boring. Its pretty simple, if you dont like J*/Pacblue or Air nz dont fly with them. At the end of the day there will be plenty of people who will travel on the cheapest fares. If thats pacblue, jetstar or scare nz its their decision. I think you will find over the next 6 months or so there will be some very cheap tickets around, which is only good for the travelling public. Yes the lowcost carriers dont have the route structure of old air nz, but what you will find is that they will keep air nz alittle more honest on the trunk routes.I say good luck to em, as its about time the travelling kiwis got some realistic priced flights.

jetsolo

9th Jul 2009, 04:06

Very Nice to see the Kiwi's behind the national carrier! However, no amount of bagging Jetstar is going to make them go away. The company is an agressive player that plays to win and so far that's all is has done. It had a far worse start when it started it's Australian operations and look where it now stands on the Australian and Asian fronts. Load factors in the high 90's on most flights during these economic times is a feat very few airlines can boast about. Jetstar can! Did Air New Zealand make a profit last quarter?? Jetstar did!

kotoyebe

9th Jul 2009, 04:59

Jetstar did!

Of course it did....

I also heard they are about to cure cancer and make world peace.

distracted cockroach

9th Jul 2009, 05:57

Hey Indianzz, sorry but no sympathy from me. If you choose to live in the "regions" then there are some disadvantages...high airfares are one, I'm sure there are others. To compensate you get cheaper houses, rates etc as well as myriad other advantages. Swings and roundabouts. You pays ya money and ya takes ya choice.
I choose to live in the big smoke...it costs me heaps but it's my choice. One of the benefits is cheaper airfares when I decide to visit my city dwelling friends and family but I don't expect big companies (like Air NZ) to subsidise my lifestyle choice.
I'm sure Air NZ management feel similarly, but are too "diplomatic" to say so!

blow.n.gasket

10th Jul 2009, 03:07

Jetstar apologises to NZ on two counts of poor conduct

July 10, 2009

Article from: The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/)
JETSTAR has apologised for late arrivals and poor customer service in New Zealand.
The company took full-page advertisements in New Zealand newspapers yesterday saying it was sorry for inconveniencing travellers in the four weeks since it began operations in the country.
It pledged to give vouchers to customers whose flights arrived more than an hour late at any time over the next three months.
Jetstar has been plagued by late departures. Customers have complained they were being left behind because staff closed flights while they were waiting in queues. Larger rival Air New Zealand offered inconvenienced Jetstar travellers cheap seats as complaints about the Melbourne-based newcomer mounted.
"We made some errors in terms of customer service and on-time performance," Jetstar chief executive officer Bruce Buchanan told Radio New Zealand yesterday. "When we fail to live up to our expectations, we always come out and apologise."
The airline will add staff and implement new procedures at airports, and plans better communications with passengers over check-in progress, according to the advertisements. Customers will get $NZ50 ($31) vouchers if their flights are more than an hour late arriving.
Jetstar runs services between Australia and New Zealand. The airline also operates 84 budget flights a week between New Zealand's three largest cities and the South Island resort of Queenstown. It competes with Air New Zealand and Pacific Blue, another budget airline operated by Virgin Blue Holdings, in a market where consumer spending is falling amid the worst recession in more than three decades.
"There's enough business to sustain Jetstar," Mr Buchanan told the broadcaster. "We've got massive booking volumes. We're looking at more capacity because demand's been overwhelming."
The apology comes after a slanging match between Jetstar and Air New Zealand after the Australian airline claimed its troubled Kiwi launch had been sabotaged by dirty tricks.
The Qantas subsidiary has had a bumpy ride since the launch of its New Zealand schedule last month, with complaints of late and cancelled flights, rude staff and dozens of New Zealanders turned away for failing to check in early enough.
The airlines started trading barbs after Mr Buchanan accused Air New Zealand of attempting to sabotage his airline, which has replaced Qantas in New Zealand.
Mr Buchanan told the Herald on Sunday newspaper the Kiwi airline had circulated rumours about the planes being old and unserviced, the pilots poorly trained and the flights overbooked because it was worried it would lose its monopoly on the domestic market.
Bloomberg, AAP

Prado

11th Jul 2009, 11:33

I have not been following J*'s progress in NZ apart from reading this thread (full of factual information :)). I will wade in however and say that it does not suprise me that Air NZ would capitalise on the start up woes of a new carrier. They wouldn't have the nouse to meet the threat with innovation and perhaps an improved product, nope, there wouldn't be the gray matter in that organisation to come up with that! I worked for AN during the demolishing by Air NZ, and can tell you that Air NZ domestic was an absolute basket case then, and I bet if their OTP from around the 2001 mark was dredged up, J* at their worst would be running rings around them. There was no idea of customer service, and remember this was the day of the "full service airline", and it was a major project across both organisations to get the NZ domestic product's act into gear. In fact most of their "product" (international and domestic), customer handling, special handling, disruption management etc was modelled (read copied) on the award winning Ansett domestic and international product. That's about when the Air NZ product started to lift to a vaguely reasonable standard. Then they killed off AN, so lost all the good people helping them get their shut togither. Goodness only knows what they did to lift the product that was so diabolical to now be referred to in the glowing terms it is in this thread.

Jetstar is a good product, and will stick around long term in NZ. Unfortunate really, as it probably won't be appreciated by kiwi's (adjectives deliberately left out, as I could go on forever). The trans tasman service is an example of the difference the Jetstar model can make to accessiblity of a route, it's just unfortunate for us on the good side of the ditch, as it means more kiwi's travelling to our side!!

Little exercise for you to play next time you're in a busy airport: look for someone really not coping with the "airport thing" or listen out for a really stupid question ..... 95% of the time it will be followed by the production of a NZ Passport :eek::eek::D

Cheers
Prado

mattyj

11th Jul 2009, 12:36

Doesn't Bruno drive a Prado?

murdoch_disliker

11th Jul 2009, 20:34

Hello Prado, you are a truly bitter and twisted person. Your comments go beyond the usual trans-tasman slagging and are in the realms of racism.

slamer.

11th Jul 2009, 23:02

Remember departing Telstra CEO, American, Sol Trujillos remarks on racism in Australia earlier this year.

My observations are racist sentiments seem even more prevalent in the Ex-pat Australian community, particuarly aviation.

I actually thought prados post was satire when I first read it.

eureka

12th Jul 2009, 00:11

One Star is not a good product. I here them yesterday holding over Queenstown for one hour, (QN weather BKN at 1400) then diverted. Air New Zealand and Mount Cook Airlines were coming and going quite successfully. How does a two bit airline like Jetstar with their so called 'experienced crews' get off and think they can come in with no experience and I hazard a guess bugger all training and think they can start a successfull operation? The Air New Zealand group I think have a good record in this area. Worst of all though they, Jetstar's traffic staff in Queenstown I hear are telling the customers that all the other operators are operating dangerously. What crap! They are a model that is cheap and nasty and seriously flawed in many areas of their operation. I certainly wouldn't recommend the product.

Oxidant

12th Jul 2009, 02:04

After that utter drivel, I can't decide whether to laugh or just feel sorry for you. :rolleyes:

Dog One

12th Jul 2009, 02:18

Murdoch_Disliker

Sometimes the truth hurts!

shortshorts

12th Jul 2009, 04:18

Eureka,

It sounds like the Jetstar traffic staff and yourself included need to do a bit more research into why the a320 isn't getting in, I think you'll find it has nothing to do with crew experience.

aulglarse

12th Jul 2009, 04:32

shorts, stop teasin' and please tell us why?;)

Derek P

12th Jul 2009, 05:40

Lack of RNP certification?

Artificial Horizon

12th Jul 2009, 07:08

Jetstar doesn't have the same operational performance into Queenstown because it has not had full RNP certification. The letter in the Dominion Post this week by the Jetstar CEO said that they expect the NZ operation to obtain full certification in time for next winter at which point Jetstar will be able to get in whenever Air NZ does. Has nothing to do with aircraft or crew experience just a CAA certification issue, which as we all know takes time.

Prado

12th Jul 2009, 07:30

Guys, take it easy. The first para of my post I stand by. Paras 2 & 3, firmly tongue in cheek....

Cheers
Prado

ZK-NSN

12th Jul 2009, 09:12

I worked for AN during the demolishing by Air NZ
You didnt happen to be a Flight Engineer on the 767?

firmly tongue in cheek
Or head up ass.

27/09

12th Jul 2009, 21:29

Prado

The AN debacle has been discussed many times already. I am tired of reading silly comments like these;

I worked for AN during the demolishing by Air NZ Then they killed off AN,

as history shows that AN was an absolute basket case

I feel very sorry for those that were affected by the whole situation, but to blame Air NZ totally for the outcome is very short sighted.

Prado

14th Jul 2009, 06:51

NSN, if you read my post carefully, you'll read that my career with AN was ground based. You may want to check who's head is where.

27/09, quoting out of context only makes you look foolish.

I see no one argues the point about the state of the Air NZ domestic operation back then.

Cheers
Prado.

nike

14th Jul 2009, 07:36

I see no one argues the point about the state of the Air NZ domestic operation back then.

Because it's irrelevant.

As is most of your dribble about the "Jetstar Model".

Come to think of it, what exactly is the Jetstar Model?

enalkay

18th Jul 2009, 02:07

The sooner this dreadful airline Air New Zealand is dead and buried the better.I say go in hard qantas/jetstar and screw them to the wall.The much deeper pockets that qf/jq have should enable them to put huge pressure on that shocker airline.Air New Zealand should be dead in the water.

Out there

18th Jul 2009, 03:07

distracted cockroach

18th Jul 2009, 03:25

So much hate...what happened dude, an Air NZ pilot run off with your wife?

Delta Whiskey

18th Jul 2009, 22:09

QF domestic in NZ was crap - had a 4 hour delay in CH with no advice to pax apart from an occasional flickering on the solari board. It ran thru dinner time- no offers of a sandwich or anything approaching customer service. They couldn't maintain a sched in good weather with 3 aircraft and Jetstar hasn't got a dogs show with only 2.
Operationally on the tasman they're the ones to look out for with unreported amendments to estimates of up to 7 minutes. Using 10 minute seps you understand that can put you only 3 minutes away from other traffic, and TCAS isn't a legal seapration standard. Gives me the hab dabs :}

Derek P

19th Jul 2009, 01:16

Jetstar has 3 x aircraft serving DOM NZ and 3 x aircraft serving TT.

Pamelah Andersen

19th Jul 2009, 01:57

Cathay Pacific no longer use JQ/QF for sectors within NZ. Cant imagine CX putting up with one star service hurting their or the One World brand.

Package flights ex WN/CH booked through Cathay now use Air NZ.

:sad:

Lineboy4life

19th Jul 2009, 05:07

Jokestar - I love it!!!!

I sincerely hope OnestarNZ continues (running at a loss) for many years to come being subsidized (and depleting) QF's cash reserves, indirectly your keeping my preferred tickets (ANZ) at the right price.:ok:

Go Suckstar Go!!!!:}:}:}

fourholes

19th Jul 2009, 05:22

Anal key. I have said this before and no doubt I will again..........seek help.

topgun0007

19th Jul 2009, 09:04

delta whiskey, you are a to**er of the first degree, and obviously do not fly anything that goes faster than about 80 kts

Think about your assertion of estimates being out by 7 mins.

Look at the time/dist between reports and consider how much the GS would need to vary then determine what wind variation would be needed to cause such a change in GS / estimate.

Mate I have flown all over for years and years and even with 170 to 200 kts I have failed to see a discrepancy in GS that would cause an estimate correction of that amount and I know a lot of JQ pilots and if they DID have that type of change in wind component, it would not go unreported.

I suggest you do the maths and reconsider your post.