Soviet Aircrew - Afghanistan

[mav617]

Hi guys,

Firstly, may I say that I am not a helicopter pilot, though it was always my ambition to become one, sadly I wasn't gifted enough.

I'm trying to find out some information on the fate of Soviet aircrew who were forced down in the Afghan campaign from beginning to end. I know that the Soviet's lost a lot of choppers over there, and I'm trying to research what happened to the guys who were MIA, how many were repatriated, tortured or simply shot out of hand. I believe there are lessons to be learned with regards to the US/European guys out there at present, can anyone help with sources or reading matter that would help me?

Thanks in advance guys, take care.

[Airborne Aircrew]

sadly I wasn't gifted enough.I can quite safely say that none of the pilots I flew with were "gifted"... Though one did play the piano acceptably and could aim an airframe reasonably well when close to the ground when appropriately directed...

I did fly with a couple of pilots that were "special"...

As a thought... Maybe asking the same question on a Russian site might reap more relevant data... :}

[XV277]

The Shooting Gallery: Gaz Hunter: Amazon.co.uk: Books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shooting-Gallery-Gaz-Hunter/dp/0752827200)

has some info from his time in Afghanistan with the Mujahadin.

How much is true, how much is exagerated for effect is up to you to decide, but it correlates with other stories and historical precedent

[mav617]

Thanks mate, ordered off of Amazon. Looks like I might have to learn Russian also! I doubt the Soviets released much info about what went on back then though.

[bowly]

Those caught were not treated well. In fact, be prepared to read about some unpleasantries.....no videos on Al Jazeera but similar fates.

[wondering]

I recall reading in 'Fulcrum' that Soviet air crew was automatically transfered to the army as soon as their feet touched the soil after ejecting. POW? No such thing back then. They were supposed to keep fighting with their personal hand gun. Ever wondered what happened to many Soviet POWs who were repatriated to the Soviet Union after WW II? No heroes welcome. Off to the gulag.

[Wiley]

Just like in the days of Tommy Atkins in the 'stan (in Kipling's time and before), from what I've read, it was often left to the ladies to deal with captured soldiers - and it was only if you were a redhead that that might have (very, very briefly) involved anything remotely pleasant before you underwent treatment that you would not even want to imagine in your worst nightmares.

The men who flew the Hinds were particularly hated, so one could only surmise that if captured, they suffered even more.

[c130jbloke]

Try a book called The Great Gamble by Gregory Feifer ( ISBN: 978_0_06_114318_2 ). It should have some leads for you, though I remember it as only having limited references to Soviet helo ops in AFG in the 1980's. That said, their planning for the invasion makes HERRICK and TELIC look like works of art:eek:.

Basically they applied 2 rules for when the PoW question came up:

1. Don't do it.
2. If you did, assume the very, very worst.

[woptb]

Watched a documentry from the Soviet Afghan era. Possibley about Ahmad Sha Massoud (Lion of the Panshir).
There was a Cuban prisoner (I think) who they kept alive simply because he wouldn't speak,why that was the case I don't know.
It was pretty disturbing as his compatriot was in a shallow grave,with a foot sticking out of the ground nearby & his captors kept making the throat cutting sign.Very unpleasant!

[GPMG]

This may be of help

Afghanistan: the Soviet war - Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1c0OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=afghan+prisoner+treatment+russian+pilots&source=bl&ots=m_bV6ZiL5U&sig=9c0C5sFeSbBveiowggiAHSd28DI&hl=en&ei=9mcySp3VO4LSjAffnfj6Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1)

[woptb]

Had a look around out of curiosity & found this;

Afghanistan: The First Five Years of ... - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=RUSNyMH1aFQC&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=Russian+POW+afghanistan&source=bl&ots=2yU_yOATIS&sig=nvo8Q_SrVJfKH-TIXAY7ZhSMMF4&hl=en&ei=vWkySu-WFsHMjAf72KD9CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9)

Apparently there were no Cuban POW's.

[minigundiplomat]

I think that the fact that very few POW soviet airmen wrote about their experiences may be linked to their fate.

[barnstormer1968]

I did see a video of a captured Soviet AFV crew once (at their point of capture, and the minutes following), and it was not a pleasant thing (no surprises there).

It seemed the treatment given out would depend on the "fashion of the day", similar (and clearly also totally different) to the way in GW1, shemags were all the rage, but not so in GW2.

I do not think this is the place for details though, as there will always be some idiot, or organised terrorist who likes the idea, and tries it out!:eek:

[fallmonk]

Off similar Vein i remember reading "the day of the typhoon" set during ww2 , where a lot of the aircrew would fly in army browns as if caught by the Germans they could expect a similar poor treatment as the panzer crews hated them (cant really blame them)

[CirrusF]

Yep, I saw that video too, and it is so horrible and distressing that as far as I know it can't be found anywhere on the internet, even now. It is buried in the annals of HMG/Russian archives and hopefully will never be released.

Some of the accounts of treatment of Afghan treatment of Russian captives as recounted by the horribly mutilated Russian ex-captives are beyond belief. Generally they tortured the enlisted soldiers to death in extraordinary medieval barbarism, but left the CO blinded, castrated, quadri-amputated, but still alive so that he could recount what had happened.

When UK agreed partake in the US-led invasion of Afghansitan, my first concern was what would happen politically when the first UK (or US) soldier was captured alive - thankfully that has not yet happened, and hopefully never will.

[Wiley]

a lot of the aircrew would fly in army brownsI'm sure Milt or some other prooner who was there can confirm or deny it, but I understand that the same thing happened in Korea - a zipper on a captured pilot's clothing was appraently the giveaway, so people flew in standard (3A?) uniforms so that if they could get rid of their parachute etc before capture, they might not undergo quite the same degree of 'welcome' from the troops or civilians who first captured them.

I had a few friends who flew in Oman as mercenaries in the earfly 70s. They (ony half jokingly) said they all carried a still-sealed packet of brand new razor blades and a needle snd thread in their flying suit pockets, the theory being that should they be captured, they would say to the Arab women: "Please, don't use that rusty old kunja and that filthy twine to cut off my tackle and sew it all into my mouth. Here, use this clean razor and my needle and thread."

Had one friend who forced landed a Caribou on a beach in 'indian territory' after a double engine failure down near the Yemini border and he said the time before a Huey came in to pick him and his crew up were the longest, most worrisome minutes of his life.

Back to Afghanistan; there's a book out there written by a SAS bloke who was sent in very early in the piece [after 'resigning' from the British Army] (very early eighties?) to train the Afghans to shoot down a Hind, initially with a Blowpipe, which was far too complex for them to handle. (An interesting read in many ways, right down to how the Pakistani military/intel services were more interested in protecting the drug shipments coming in from Afghanistan than anything else and how he was told by his handlers to ignore anything like that that he saw.) He mentions the fate of a Hind pilot they came upon who was still alive. Not for the squeamish.

I see no one picked up on my allusion to red heads. Can anyone confirm stories I've read from the Second Afghan War that red headed soldiers, (of whom there were more than a few among the Scots squaddies of the day), were subjected to an "extra dimension" of torture?

[TEEEJ]

Wiley,

Are you thinking of Jihad!: The Secret War in Afghanistan by Tom Carew (Philip Sessarego)?

The general consensus on the book is that it is to be taken with a pinch of salt. Philip Sessarego may have spent time in Afghanistan, but how much of the tale spun is genuine?

SAS fantasist 'may have faked his own death' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/4342533/SAS-fantasist-may-have-faked-his-own-death.html)

BBC News | NEWSNIGHT | SAS transcript (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1660604.stm)

Lonely death of fantastist obsessed with SAS | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/24/military-sas-tom-carew-philip-sessarego-jihad)

A Channel 4 documentary on Philip Sessarego is to be shown on Fri 26th June.

'My Father the Mercenary is the first programme in the new run of the acclaimed First Cut strand of half-hour documentaries, which features the brightest new directing talent around. Philip Sessarego was a soldier of fortune who had fought in 80s Afghanistan, taken part in a coup in the Maldives and trained the Sri Lankan army.'

My Father The Mercenary on Channel 4 at 7:35pm June 26th, 2009 - UK TV Guide (http://uk-tv-guide.com/programme-details/Channel+4/26+June+2009/18:35/My+Father+The+Mercenary/Documentary/)

TJ

[GPMG]

There is a lot of documentation that tells of Soviet atrocities against the Afghan population as well. It makes for truly vile reading.
It seems that the Afghans didn't have the monopoly on horrific treatment of humans.

[Wiley]

Yes TEEEJ, that would appear to be the book I was referring to.

Sucked in.

[barnstormer1968]

CirrusF wrote:
Yep, I saw that video too, and it is so horrible and distressing that as far as I know it can't be found anywhere on the internet, even now. It is buried in the annals of HMG/Russian archives and hopefully will never be released.

If there can be any humour to go along with this, can I just add that when I first joined the army I thought "US army medicine in Vietnam" was a gory video!....How wrong I was.

As a child I had read Battle magazine along with Hotspur and the Warlord comic, and later joined with a patriotic spirit. Soon after this I had a huge awakening, with the realisation of just what any "baddy" may actually want to do to my pink fleshy body:eek:

[flash8]

I have worked with a lot of ex and current Military/GRU Officers when I was based out of Moscow - mostly staff rank - some of whom flew in the Afghan war - incredible stories that quite frankly were mouth dropping - One Colonel I spoke to said that a lot of Pilots flew missions completely drunk... and survived!

Off topic - but those guys were the best poker players I ever met!

[barnstormer1968]

I don't know about officers, but ISTR that antifreeze was one of the drinks of choice for "other ranks" in the soviet campaign. Did your GRU/mil work colleagues tell you anything of this?*

*I only ask, as it seems that much of what happened was kept hidden from the soviet media. Oddly enough there is a similar thread on this site, but regarding British censorship of the very same area!

[XV277]

Back to Afghanistan; there's a book out there written by a SAS bloke who was sent in very early in the piece [after 'resigning' from the British Army] (very early eighties?) to train the Afghans to shoot down a Hind, initially with a Blowpipe, which was far too complex for them to handle. (An interesting read in many ways, right down to how the Pakistani military/intel services were more interested in protecting the drug shipments coming in from Afghanistan than anything else and how he was told by his handlers to ignore anything like that that he saw.) He mentions the fate of a Hind pilot they came upon who was still alive. Not for the squeamish.


Not seen the Carew book, but that description sounds familiar -ish from the Hunter book I mentioned above (albeit it's 10 years since I read that one, whilst waiting on a delayed holiday flight!!)

[K.Whyjelly]

Not aircrew but still a member of the soviet military..............and apparently with red hair as well!!


A Former Soviet Soldier Lives Among Afghans : NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6603677)

[mav617]

Guys,

many thanks for all your replies to my original post. I have the Gaz Hunter book now which I've had a quick look through and as mentioned it's not for the squemish. Despite the different idealogies, my heart goes out to those young aircrew in Soviet service who were forced down and taken alive over in Afghanistan. I hope and pray that any airman, of any nation, creed or religion, forced down over there is treated better in the future. I'm signing off now, but I'll probably pop back now and then for a read. I wish all of you clear skies and godspeed, take care up there. :ok: