Petition for Student status for british trainee professional pilots.

[1mag1n3]

Petition here... (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Student-Pilots/)

Hey chaps,
Found this petition and thought it would be good to get as many names as possible onto the list. It would provide a solid base for us wannabes if it was approved, so the more names the better.

Obviously this is for British nationals wanting this to be approved.

If this is in the wrong forum section please feel free to move it.

Thanks, and spread the word!

1mag

[rriisshhii]

It's been described as a lost cause especially considering the most popular petition is entitled rather simply "resign"! Nonetheless I have signed up in the hope that other's will follow suit. I've also sent the link to everyone on my Facebook and everyone in my e-mail address list, begging all of my friends to sign it!

[Whirlygig]

Oh dear - where shall I start? This has been so badly thought out and argued, I can guarantee it won't get a look-in with Number 10.

Air travel is becoming ever more important and the demand for professional pilots is increasing exponentially yet training costs are massive (£35,000 - £100,000), finance is of personal responsibility and qualification offers no guarantee of employment. Therefore many ambitious and talented individuals are hindered or even prohibited from flying careers.
If the demand for professional pilots is that high, then why does the creator state that there is no guarantee of a job? If the demand is increasing exponentially (does the creator even know what that means?), then why wouldn't the airlines be funding training. If the individuals have that amount for talent, why don't they join the Government-funded flying scheme called the Armed Forces?

Many professions such as accountancy and law train their own students, not have the state do it unless, of course, it's a state funded profession such as medicine.

How would this student status work with those doing modular training and working at the same time?

The only points that I can see that are valid on the petition are the inequalities in tax relief on training and VAT charged.

So, if anyone else plans to start another petition (and I'm sure this subject has been done a few times), please think it through and make it sound as those the voters would agree with you?

Cheers

Whirls

[mikehammer]

Not exactly on topic, but back in the late 20th/early 21st century I managed to convince the local council to discount my council tax because of my student status. I got a letter from the FTO and sent it in, job done. Mightn't work any more but try anyway, only costs a stamp.

[Aerouk]

Whirlygig,

I've never met a new Lawyer or an Accountant that has had his full training paid for by a company. Most of them do it through government funding or student loans.

[Nearly There]

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/364615-downing-street-petition-trainee-pilots.html

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/364118-petition-help-student-pilots.html

And even back in 2007:
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/286433-petition-support-trainee-pilots.html

I couldnt even get a 25% student discount on my council tax even after an appeal, although others have managed with different councils.:ugh:

[Whirlygig]

My accountancy training was fully funded by my company and that company and the rest of the Big Four still do the same. Mind you, if you fail an exam, you're sacked.

I do know of what I speak. :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

[chrisbl]

There is a difference between becoming an accountant and lawyer and a commercial pilot.

Entry requirements into the former are somewhat stricter (good graduate) than those for becoming a pilot. All you need to become a pilot is money.

[Whirlygig]

But if the airline business were to adopt the same philosophy of training its own replacement staff, then I'm sure their entry requirements would be similarly stringent.

However, supply and demand means that airlines don't have to as there are enough people who can afford to train as a pilot (by whatever method or financial means) and will pay for their own training. Governments are unlikely to change the rules unless they think it's a vote winner. It's probably not a popular one with the "Man on the Clapham Omnibus" as any trainee pilot is seen as over-privileged anyway. :}

Cheers

Whirls

[quant]

first of all it's been done before, do a search! I won't be signing purely because i don't want the competition as i've said before.

Nice idea though :8

[Bealzebub]

Well good luck, but has the author actually seen what is happening?

There are many hundreds of wannabes falling over themselves to pay tens of thousands of pounds for the aerial equivalent of vanity publishing. There is no shortage, in fact quite the reverse. There is a large surplus of experienced pilots. This surplus is borne out of three major factors: The first is the weakness in the overall global economic cycle; The second is the fact that legislation has now extended the working life of a professional pilot by up to 10 years; The third is that the job that used to exist in the right hand seat is being suppressed by a growing demand from people who are willing to pay to sit there.

Given that there is no shortage whatsover, and an abundant supply of applicants, where is the imperative for the tax payer to provide concessions to these petionists?

[charliegolf]

Accountancy, Whirls? Aren't you a rocket scientist?

CG

[Whirlygig]

I was, CharlieG, but my funding was cut by the Government of the time so I sold out to the red braces and shoulder pads brigade :}

Cheers

Whirls

[Flying Lawyer]

Whirlygig

I agree the petition is not well argued - whoever drafted it clearly isn't adept at such things and would have benefited from specialist help.

I've signed it because I support the objective.
I doubt if it will be successful, but don't regard that as a reason for not showing support.

Many professions such as accountancy and law train their own students :confused:

What percentage of trainee accountants have their training financed by accountancy firms?
Do the firms which offer sponsorship finance all stages of training?

Lawyers?
Some solicitors firms sponsor part of the training costs. I'm not certain, but I don't think many (if any?) sponsorships include the three years at university before professional training begins.

The Bar gives financial help in the final (5th) year but not, as far as I'm aware, before that.
Apart from a few scholarships, there was no financial help available 'in my day' but thinking has changed since then (early 70s). It is no longer regarded as acceptable that someone should be prevented from becoming a barrister because their family can't afford to finance them, or because they would find it impossible to raise the necessary funds, so the Bar does as much as it reasonably can to help.

[Whirlygig]

FL, I've been out of the profession for a few years but, certainly up to the year 2000 and I guess the system hasn't changed, ALL firms of Chartered Accountants who were authorised for student training paid for all the training.

The deal is usually a low salary, all study time as paid leave, exams, books, membership subs and courses paid for. However, if you failed any exams and you were lucky enough to keep your job, you would mostly likely have to pay for the resit yourself. It is impossible to qualify without the support of a training firm as they have to sign off your experience requirements.

The three/four years entails a full-time job with block release courses of a few weeks several times a year plus progress tests. And, up until a few years ago, you had to pass all exams in one go; fail one and resit them all. Them's were tough times.

We did not have student status so no cut-price gig tickets or bank charges. If you failed exams ( as I did one year but was not sacked) and paid for the resit yourself, the cost of these was NOT available for income tax relief and VAT was also charged.

However, the nature of the training is quite different to that of a pilot. In most cases, a degree is required. The subject of that degree doesn't really matter although preference is given for maths and sciences; not, you might think, accountancy and business finance subjects. How that degree was funded has varied over the years.

We have no requirement for equipment other than a calculator.

If the tax and VAT on aviation training were exempted, there would be no need for "student status" and modular students could benefit in the same way as integrated.

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlygig]

Touche Ross as it was called then; now Deloitte Touche. Qualified with them and then moved to a small firm in rural Berkshire in order to get my practising certificate. Why?

Cheers

Whirls

[helimutt]

When I trained back in late 90's, early 00's, we had the benefit of the Career Development Loans and also the reduction of VAT. 17.5% off all training costs I think. (Can't remember what it was called now. ) More if you were a higher rate tax payer. I was hour building in an R22 for £104/hr. Now why can't the government just allow this sort of thing again.

[FANS]

Whirlygig has hit the nail on the head - the focus should really be on getting the VAT back, as per Helimutt's day (especially if the rate increases beyond17.5% when it changes from the current 15%).

PS - all reputable accountancy firms still pay all training costs (and it's just Deloitte now!), but as has already been pointed out, that only reflects the different industry demand/supply dynamics...

[Need money]

Going slightly off topic, but

For what its worth - its not just "accountancy" firms that pay for Accountancy training costs either...

...most "commercial" companies will sponsor their employees through the accountancy exams if that is the route they are following - usually with a bond of some sort!

[Re-Heat]

Whirls - exactly the same these days still; "student" status is not really applicable to the arrangement.

[pre3sg]

From the petitions page at number10.gov.uk:


Air travel is becoming ever more important and the demand for professional pilots is increasing exponentially yet training costs are massive (£35,000 - £100,000), finance is of personal responsibility and qualification offers no guarantee of employment. Therefore many ambitious and talented individuals are hindered or even prohibited from flying careers.

The Government provides loans, grants & incentives to encourage students to attain qualifications which often have little employment value, it backs apprentice schemes in the majority of skilled professions yet it is ignorant to assist aspiring pilots. Furthermore unlike the UK many countries such as France, Sweden and America provide low interest, unsecured tuition/course fee loans to student pilots.

In resolution I propose that the British Government award official student status to trainee professional pilots and thereby provide:

*Entitlement to standard low interest, unsecured student loans (full training course value)

*VAT exemption on training & examinations

*Council Tax exemption & reduced Income Tax

*Discount on learning resources & travel

Pilot-Career



Follow the link below if you would like to sign up:

Petition to: award official student status to british trainee professional pilots... | Number10.gov.uk (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Student-Pilots/)


P. ;)

[LH2]

On the other hand, provided you are between 17 and 23, EEA national or permanent resident, speak both excellent French and English, and satisfy all the various other educational, medical, and psychological requirements, why not apply to the Ecole Nationale de l'Aviation Civile (http://www.enac.fr/)?

The number of places is limited according to industry demand (around 48 for 2009) and I understand the competition is very though, but if you cut the mustard you walk out of it with a proper academic qualification and a pilot's licence (CPL+MEIR+MCC), all paid for by the French government. :)

As a reference, the detailed conditions for this year's selection (already held) can be found at: http://www.enac.fr/documents/concours/epl-s.pdf.

Hope this helps :ok: