What would happen to a Helicopter if it was in space?

[Helififtysix]

So stuck on very long and boring train journey I pondered what would happen if you put a helicopter in space,

Of course you would sort out the small issues of the getting the engines to work and the pilots pay and conditions but, What would Happen?

A nice cheery question to rack those brains out there and have a bit of fun with

Answers on post card and winner gets a pat on the back from himself
:ok:

[Donalk]

............it would be a good start but we must not lose sight of our firm objective to get them all up there.

[Um... lifting...]

One thort that was attorneys...

[g-mady]

my 2p...

The rotor disc has mass... at flight idle it would create its own "mini" gravity.


This is obviously useless but I guess a cyclic input would have some effect on that.

Do you need an I.R. in space??? - Clear of cloud? Check, In sight of the surface? Check

When can I start?


MADY

[SASless]

Turn the Politicians loose on this project....they would have'em talked up there in a jiffy....but over budget, overschedule, and looking for a mission for them much like the V-22.

[g-mady]

would expeneses allow for an overnight in the International Space Station??? and do they have a loyalty card???

MADY

[Um... lifting...]

Turn the Politicians loose on this project....they would have'em talked up there in a jiffy....but over budget, overschedule, and looking for a mission for them much like the V-22.

This will require a fact-finding junket for all the pols to the space station. The crew can welcome them aboard and then inform them in the interest of their comfort and the lovely view that 'cocktails are being served outside... on the terrace...'

[zhishengji751]

Already been tried... it crashed :(

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/7928/heloinspace.jpg

[SASless]

Must have had a Bell Tail rotor on it.....LTE Perhaps?:E

[Miles Gustaph]

...I don't think the issue is whether it would work or not; gravity will win and when it does the question becomes who has a space-port with provision for helicopter landings... very very fast ones... it's not in the FAA commercial space-port regulations I can tell you now!

...and when it gets ramp checked, will the pilots be suitably qualified? will it have a daily signed for by a suitably qualified extra-atmosphere A&C type rated engineer... I think not!

I think Um... lifting... had it right, the lawyers would stop it!

[boguing]

The aliens would laugh themselves sick.

[Flyt3est]

Typical you all care about the pilots, but what about the poor old line engineer when the aircraft has snags on the line... It'll take hours to get suited and booted.. and You try using lockwire with space gloves on.. sheeeesh!

I was also thinking, with no gravity, what happens when our hero applies the rotorbrake.. Rotor Stop - aircraft spin, so in effect, would you need the rotors spinning at 100% Nr and a bootful of yaw to apply the rotorbrake.. but then that would... **** it, this is getting complicated.. can't we just stick with the Space Shuttle???

One more thing.. if the helo went to the moon and he landed in the "Sea of Tranquility".. would the emergency floats deploy?? Just a thought...

[moosp]

Well maybe if you fed the engine a stoichometric mix of O2 and fuel, and the main and tail rotors went round, I guess it would just spin at a rate proportional to the mass of the rotor versus the centre of mass behind the mast. ie damn fast.

And yet, and yet, as a way of re-entry, a ceramic rotor in autorotation to absorb the energy with a bit of gas thrust at the tail to compensate might just make an elegant arrival.

With a transition to the White House lawn, it would be very impressive...

[Um... lifting...]

With a transition to the White House lawn, it would be very impressive...

And quite possibly cheaper than the VH-71

[Ian Corrigible]

In the vacuum of space, will you still be able to hear a pilot talk about his new watch...? :E

Off-topic, but NASA has toyed with the idea of using a 'smart rotorcraft field assistant' for planetary science on a Mars mission.

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/57072main_Rotocraft_Assistants.jpg

I/C

[Tarman]

. . . . . pick your spot and we'll do a practice auto all the way to the ground. . . . . . . . . . .it may take some time :ooh:

[EN48]

In the vacuum of space, will you still be able to hear a pilot talk about his new watch...? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif



Yes... and his ex-wife too! ;)

[G-OAT]

Houston we have a problem......... no air to translate lift .... ?????

Those blades would keep on turning for years with no resistance, lol

I can just see it now, lol

NASA Robinson R22 ... curently orbiting the moon.... 30000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000 miles south of the sun request QNH, planet in use and a flight information service.

G-MADY love your post, raises so many questions ???? IFR- VFR I would say VFR..... always within constant visual referance to the ground, lol

LOL

Goat

[Um... lifting...]

Soon as you switched on mechanical gyros the stupid thing would start tumbling, y'know... throw some rotating fuel pumps, oil pumps, starters, a couple whirling donks, some accessories, the thing would make a ride in the vomit comet look like a lark around the light 'ouse... if, as is pointed out, you could get it to work... probably could get the gyros turning...

[Arnie Madsen]

The Bell 47 would be just fine in space. You wouldn't even have to start it up. It would just hang there all by itself. It would make a good photo op. '47 sales would go through the roof.

For a better background , you could even put it on the moon. I know for a fact it can be done. I saw a picture of B52 Bomber parked on the moon. My dad showed me , it was on the front page of The National Inquirer. He said if it is in a newspaper it's got to be true !!!

[cleartorotate]

While coming in on final the other day to the Inter Space station i took this shot. The R44 held up pretty well due to the solar flare that came from no where. But hey you get that on the big jobs.

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt241/mdav3/Space44-2.gif

[Gomer Pylot]

The engine(s) obviously won't run, because there is no air. The pilots die immediately for the same reason. There may be sillier propositions possible, but I don't know of one offhand.

[ShyTorque]

Whatever else happened to it, it would (just the once) be the fastest helicopter ever. And then burn up on re-entry to the helipad.

[g-mady]

.
PRACTICE ENGINE FAILURE GO!!!


lever down - no need
Right pedal - no need
Throttle closed - Is it running???
Upcheck - what for?

Touch checks - oh whats the point!!!



eeeerrrrr... now what? Mint anyone??? :ugh:



MADY



cleartorotate, love the shot! Should one keep the fresh air vents closed when in space??? Just a thought! :cool:

[Graviman]

We could have some fun with this question by breaking it into two parts:

1. What happens when a helicopter operates in a vacuum?
Not much. :bored:

2. What happens when a helicopter operates in normal atmosphere but with continued zero-g? Or how much control would the pilot have with a helicopter inside a large pressurised space station? :}

[WhirlwindIII]

More space junk!

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ...

Well one things for sure .... it would be about as useful as "tits on a bull".

[Flying Binghi]

So stuck on very long and boring train journey I pondered what would happen if you put a helicopter in space,...


An interesting thought question. Relevance to real world ops could be to help understand the stress's on a mustering heli for example.

...Of course you would sort out the small issues of the getting the engines to work and the pilots pay and conditions but, What would Happen?


For the exercise we can just get god to supply an unlimited size, airtight, standard earth atmosphere, sphere in space....or -

2. What happens when a helicopter operates in normal atmosphere but with continued zero-g? Or how much control would the pilot have with a helicopter inside a large pressurised space station?

To start with it couldn't be a Robby as it would shed its tail rotor.

For the exercise perhaps we could use the Hughes 300.

Soon as you switched on mechanical gyros the stupid thing would start tumbling, y'know... throw some rotating fuel pumps, oil pumps, starters, a couple whirling donks, some accessories.....

My guess the biggest gyro would be the main rotor and drive shaft combo. Second biggest gyro would be the engine through tail rotor drive. Third, would be the tail rotor.

The sleeper gyro is the fuselage itself.

Anyway, i'm of to look at videos of Sopwith camels to try and get my head around gyro effects.

[Um... lifting...]

binghi,
I stand by my statement on gyros. As you spun up the various heavier masses with greater rotational moments of inertia things would start coming unglued pretty quickly in 0-g. You would have to start the thing up and allow it to achieve steady state in some kind of anchored system for it not to do so. As soon as a pump started transferring mass within an aircraft's system, you'd have some motion. All these forces are insignificant against the weight and friction of an aircraft on the ground in 1-g.
You'd have no aerodynamic effects to speak of until you fired up an engine or two... the engines would provide some degree of thrust depending upon the alignment of the exhausts (whether it's a turbine or a recip) and intake and some kind of impulse motion. While the rotors would again impart some degree of rotational motion as they accelerated, there'd be aerodynamic effects as well... let's just say I'll let you try it first without things being firmly tied in place.
There is, somewhere, a video of these guys playing with some gyro binoculars in space (which I can't find) and the internal friction of the gyros eventually leads to the thing precessing like mad about all three axes.
You first.:eek:

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[cleartorotate]

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt241/mdav3/Jetspace.gif

[zhishengji751]

Reminds me of the photos (not photoshopped) posted by John Eacott landing on the Enterprise.

http://www.pprune.org/4667951-post4442.html

[Flying Binghi]

I stand by my statement on gyros. As you spun up the various heavier masses with greater rotational moments of inertia things would start coming unglued pretty quickly in 0-g. You would have to start the thing up and allow it to achieve steady state in some kind of anchored system for it not to do so. As soon as a pump started transferring mass within an aircraft's system, you'd have some motion. All these forces are insignificant against the weight and friction of an aircraft on the ground in 1-g.


I see what your saying Um... lifting... , i guess if the machine is just 'out there' unsupported, even with the gyro instruments turned off, when the motor was started the fuselage would rotate opposite to the engine - engage clutch and... perhaps we need to 'start' the Helififtysix thought experiment with rotors at flight revs.

You'd have no aerodynamic effects to speak of until you fired up an engine or two... the engines would provide some degree of thrust depending upon the alignment of the exhausts (whether it's a turbine or a recip) and intake and some kind of impulse motion. While the rotors would again impart some degree of rotational motion as they accelerated, there'd be aerodynamic effects as well... let's just say I'll let you try it first without things being firmly tied in place.


Using the 300 as an example, i'd probably just pull collective (standard atmosphere, just no gravity) and allow drag on the tail rotor and boom to gradually pull the machine into a 'loop' of about one gee - maybe some maneuvers could be done whilst in the loop ?

[Ascend Charlie]

"In space, nobody can hear you scream."

But if you put a helicopter in space, some jerk would complain about the noise.:eek:

[Graviman]

Um.. Lifting.. brilliant demo of gyroscopic stabilisation! :ok:

Next time you go up there you should convince 'em to let you bring a heli in your back pocket - maybe the one Cattletruck used. ;)


Svenestron, Flying Binghi,

I've been thinking about this in my off moments. I think the heli (lets say Hughes 300 to save any embarasing tail shedding) would actually "fly" relatively normally. The collective would control "upward" velocity (not acceleration) but would be more sensitive than in 1g. Cyclic would be much less sensitive since only the hinge offset would produce pitch/roll moments, but otherwise would manouvre the heli just fine (as long as inputs were small). Clearly the pedals would be more-or-less centred since there would be much less torque.

The biggest problems i can think of is that you could not generate "downwards" velocity and the twistgrip/collective co-relator would be totally unoptimised for "climb". Lets assume the govenor sorts out the last problem. Lets also assume that oil, hydraulic and fuel sytems have had a zero-g overhaul, so all heli systems behave themselves.

Just for fun, lets assume that the machine has been retrimmed to allow a small amount of negative collective... :uhoh:

So: flyable or not?

[Flying Binghi]

The biggest problems i can think of is that you could not generate "downwards" velocity

re 'landing' on a surface ?


So: flyable or not?

Head scratch time...

[valve guide]

Don't think you could use an r22 as the doors don't seal to well and the cabin would depressurise.

[Um... lifting...]

...and the rubber bands that turn the bits around would freeze...

[IHL]

1-Depending on its altitude and velocity it would either be a satellite or a fire ball on re-entry.

2-If it were travelling at the speed of light upon return the pilot would be much unger than his twin on earth.

3-If it incounter a worm hole it could theoretically return before it left-providing it did not encounter anti-matter.

This question would better be answered by Stephen Hawking

Stephen Hawking, The Big Bang, and God (http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html)

[birrddog]

Can't speak for helicopters, but according to the ESA, Helicopter Pilots will work in space....

Major Tim Peake - Augusta Westland Apache Test Pilot (http://www.timothypeake.com/2009_05_01_archive.html)

[K48]

If you turned everything off.... you would have the perfect hover!.:ok:

If it were runnning.. tail rotor would not have any effect but torque would so you would spin... unless you had a twin counter rotating main rotor system... then no spin... but your exhaust will be pushing you forward... assuming you have sorted the small problem of no air going in at the sharp end!!

Insurance for EOLs might come down a bit....:E


:suspect: Space 1999 was so long ago!!!!!

[Graviman]

Svenestron,

Good point well made. So unless the "flight" mode is doomed to be forever climb & descend our pressurised space-bubble prototype helicopter needs to have the modification of a pusher/puller prop with collective pitch. For fun, lets assume that such a prop is fitted on an extension to the tail boom (twist grip could be modified to allow fore/aft velocity control). This also overcomes K48's concern about exhaust reaction.

I'm of the keep-it-simple philosophy, so i won't fit lateral thrusters unless the test pilots on Rotorheads complain about lack of control. So would controlling roll velocity and climb/descend velocity be enough to attempt a spot landing?

Maybe we should consider what other controlability flight tests this machine should undergo to prove/disprove its capabilities inside the pressurised bubble? :8

[birrddog]

If one created a Tip Jet with a Rocket Powered NOTAR, and the collective controlled the pitch of the tipjets from positive through negative, input sensitivities / over control aside, one could control a helicopter in the regular fashion;

I can't imagine the craft would have much range though it could have unlimited payload provided it never needs to enter an environment with Gravity!

[Um... lifting...]

Seems like it would be inefficient as all get out... if there's no gravity... why would you need the blades turning all the time?
I think perhaps this is perhaps part of the reason why von Braun and his chaps didn't enlist Igor's help when they were doing their sky rockets and what-not. That, and there weren't no air...

[demon_duck]

I think you are all missing the most important point.

How much is the per diem?????

DD :}

[HELOFAN]

Most likely a visit from you local authority asking you what the service ceiling is for you type and what the hell were you doing up there in the first place.