HERC - XV198 – Crash COLERN 1973

[sumps]

Has any one got any insight into the crash of this aircraft? I have had a quick look on Google and unsurprisingly there is scant information (aviation-safety.net - Crashed after engine failure during 3-engine touch-and-go.)

Is there a report or other document I can get hold of?

Haven given the majority of my life to this type of aircraft I have be come interested in the ones I didn’t get to work on – and being engines this on intrigues me.

Honest regards

S

[Airborne Aircrew]

There's some stuff here... Not much I'll grant. I seem to remember being told about it by members of II Sqn. RAF Regiment who were stationed there at the time. I recall no details but then again the old memory plays some tricks nowadays, I might have heard about it from elsewhere.

Link (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-48609.html)

[nigegilb]

Wiki;

September 10, 1973 : An RAF C-130K, XV198, c/n 4219, from 48 Sqn crashed at RAF Colerne in Wiltshire. It was carrying out co-pilot training when it was overshooting from runway 07 with a simulated engine failure when the other engine on that side failed. At that height (400ft) and speed involved, the asymmetric forces proved too much for the crew to control and the aircraft dived into the ground. The Captain was Sqn/Ldr Tony Barrett, and all 5 crew died.[14]

[stevef]

I was a witness to this accident. I've got the Airclues issue relating to it, which I can scan and e-mail.

[Bigt]

I can remember this incident quite well. I had only been in about 9 months and recall the smoke hung in the sky for what seemed like hours afterwards. I went back to the scene a few years ago, just across the road from the station church. All the trees now grown back, but it remained bare for many years. Nigegilb has the details

[Top Bunk Tester]

Delving into the dim and distant reaches of my memory and without wishing to be picky, but I seem to recall, having been told the story on my OCU, it was a 'Practice' EFATO as opposed to 'Simulated'. Followed immediately by an actual FCU failure on the adjacent engine, totally unrecoverable at those speeds. I believe this led to the cessation of Practice EFATOs, especially as they were initiated by the instructor reaching forward and T handling the donk in question.

Standing by to sent to the the naughty step if my recollections are incorrect.

[Dengue_Dude]

PT2 bellows in the Fuel Control Unit fractured, I believe, causing effectively an engine run-down. One engine on the failure side had been T handled, feathering the prop.

Second failure occurred before the aircraft reached VMCA2. After this crash, the perceived wisdom was to throttle back the powered wing's outboard engine and full power on the inboard and look for somewhere to put it down.

On the Herc OCU we used to demonstrate a 'single engined' circuit with 3 engines at flight idle and power at 18,000"/lb max on an inboard.

I only used to do this with one particular QFI, but Uncle John S. put many new pilots' minds at rest by showing them this.

We were of course empty down the back and at training weights.

[c130jbloke]

I have tried to locate the crash site on Google earth but with no joy. That said, seeing that group of FMQs (Thickwood?) off the departure end of 07 and presumeing the ac went into the trees to the NW of Lucknam Park and that patch, thankfully this accident was not much worse.

Does anybody have a location of the site ? I tried to find the station church but with no joy. Also if there is an AIR CLUES scan of the report about I would like to get a copy - you can never read too much on flight safety.

Thanks in advance,

C130JB

[Bigt]

The site is next to Doncombe lane - between the end of the runway and Redwood Way. From what I can recall the station church was not overly large and may of been of `temporary` construction

[geniculate]

As you drive towards the camp main entrance from the South, the site is in the trees by the roadside. It is on the right-hand side, just before you first MQ you reach on the left.
The trees thin slightly and they are a little lower than those around. I had a walk around the site a few months ago, but there is nothing to see there. The change in tree height is better seen from a distance.
Hope that helps a little.

I've tried a Google Earth lat/long. 51°26'48.20"N 2°16'1.71"W

[Dengue_Dude]

There is a path from Thickwood quarters to the camp (I used to walk it with then fiancee).

On the right (in the trees) rather than on the left which was an arable field, there was a big space, I think it was about halfway down the lane.

If I have time, I'll look.

[c130jbloke]

Thanks for the lat / long and discription of the area - they agree ( I think ) when you look on Google Earth. Cannot make out the lower trees, I tried the slant thing on GE and just got funny looking trees:confused:.

That said, it was a mriacle the did not go straight into the MQs.


Was there ever a memorial or cairn put up after the event to remember the crew ?

[Dengue_Dude]

I know what you mean, but it wasn't miraculous so much as that was the magnitude of the forces the crew were dealing with.

A lot of procedures were changed after this accident. It was publicised that you also needed to apply 5 degrees of bank towards the live engines for the published VMCA2 to work too and the penalty was something like 5 knots per degree of bank penalty if you didn't apply the bank.

This was not really known at the time. Practice asymmetric training was effectively stopped after this in favour of simulated, which meant the throttle was placed at or about flight idle with the crew keeping the torque positive.

I don't remember, but logic would support that the captain slotted No 1 just after rotate then No 2 wound down at low IAS. The aircraft then rolled to the left and I believe it impacted upside down, poor souls.

There are no winners in these situations, but many many people learned life-saving lessons, so perhaps in this tragedy were the seeds for safe flying later.

Having been an instructor in the Canberra force too, it was a fact that practising asymmetric flying killed more crews than in the real event.

Thank God, someone listened and did something about it.

[stevef]

I'll send the scanned pages to those interested as soon as I find the magazine, hopefully this weekend.
Re witnessing the accident, I remember seeing the aircraft accelerating out of the roller with No1 prop not rotating, which was pointed out to me by the sergeant I was travelling with (we were at 90 degrees to the runway, close to the camp cinema). As it climbed out, the left wing started going down and a few seconds later I saw a complete top view of the aircraft as it wheeled over and went almost vertical. It struck the ground nose and left wing simultaneously.
As said before, the impact site was frighteningly close to MQs.

[dragon166]

I also witnessed the crash and was a member of the crash team that mobilised within minutes of the accident. The site was just up the road from the two quarters that faced onto the road and which, miraculously, received no damage. The mature trees seemed to keep all the energy of the explosion in straight lines leading to what looked like an atomic bomb explosion, hence preventing what could have been a major disaster. Some debris was found in the Officers Quarters childrens playground but, as it was lunch time, the playground was not being used.

The thing I will remember most is that despite the incredible mess and acrid smoke at the scene the tail section was upright proclaiming its identity. Some of the liferafts had been thrown into the field behind and inflated and, although only minutes had passed, some people from the village were in the field taking photos. A couple of burly Rocks were despatched to obtain the cameras.

Later various witnesses told of seeing the complete upper camouflaged surface while sitting at the traffic lights and had left their vehicles and run towards the village. All in all, it was terrible waste of life but, it could have been much worse.

Like all crashes it is something you hope you will never see again but, will remain etched in memory for ever. RIP

[villager.]

as yet... nothing there ' on site ' to remember the crew...

as i would have been very young at the time.
can you tell me which direction the plane was heading
was it toward or away from from the airfield.

[stevef]

It was heading away, villager.

[M2dude]

While I was in the mob, circa '67 to '74 (almost exclusively at Lyneham) there were a total of 4 crashes. The first was in 1969 XV180 at Fairford, which occured in similar circumstances to 198, resulting in the tragic loss of the 5 crew. The A/C was on MCT and doing simulated engine failures. (Can't 100% remember what the cause was though). The second was the loss of XV216 in the Med' out of Pisa in 1971. I was out there (in Pisa) on excercise then and it was awful as the pieces of the wreckage was pulled from the sea and assembled in order (I think by the AAIB guys). This I think is still the largest peacetime loss of life the RAF has ever had in a single crash. I seem to remember that there were 46 Italian Paratroopers on board as well as 6 RAF guys. The next that I can remeber was in, I think XV193 (I could be wrong about the reg') in Tromso. If I remember rightly the A/C ran into a ditch beside the runway on landing, and progressively broke apart as it ran along the ditch. Thanfully, thank God, there were no fatalities and the most serious casualty was a lacerated finger. I saw some the wreckage at Marshalls in Cambridge, the Freight Bay just behind the F/D was almost flattened. Then of course there was XV198, on my last day at Lyneham. I know a couple more have been lost since, but in my humble opinion the Herc is still an amazing A/C with a superb safety record, given the way that the A/C has to be operated.

[Dengue_Dude]

The Fairford crash was (I believe) proved to have been the throttle slotted instead of the Condition Lever.

This, instead of feathering the prop and closing the HP fuel valve, would have withdrawn the low pitch stop and allowed the prop into the ground range in flight (perhaps even reverse pitch).

Obviously, on MCT, the aircraft is at circuit speeds and heights. Putting an engine into the ground range (and SOP dictated, an outboard was used) in flight would generate such asymmetric forces on the aircraft that it would render it uncontrollable.

As I said earlier, provided we learned lessons, these tragedies probably saved more lives than were lost in each accident. We ignore such lessons at our peril.

[Beancountercymru]

I recall that in 1965 I spent 100 minutes with 30+ other air cadets pounding the Thorney Island circuit in an Argosy (854?) with assorted engines being turned on and off.

It seemed quite a normal thing to do by the standards of those days.

[herkman]

The evil hand of fate, is waiting to tap any of us on the shoulder, when things start to runaway from us. A study of most aircraft incidents and accidents will reveal that is seldom just one fact that leads to demise.

The practice of practicing live engine shut downs has not been used by most aircraft training units, mainly because of the time required to get the engine performing. The RAAF for example did not use this practice and instead would bring the engine back to flight idle. Which almost duplicates a loss of an engine, but allows very quick response if the engine is needed.

Fortunately the sad lose of these lives, allowed better systems and controls to be put in place, and the problem should not come back.

In todays situation of simulators being available without the high cost involved if something goes wrong.

But at the end of the day, military flying brings with it a much higher risk of danger, let us hope that the controls of today, keep the exposure to danger to the minium.

Regards

Col

[M2dude]

Thanks Dengue Dude, I remember from the time (aeons ago, I know) that the word around the campfire was that the Power Lever was retarded 'past the slot', instead of pulling back the Engine Condition Lever. (I think the setting was Ground Stop; apologies if I am mistaken, it's been a year or two). I did not want to speculate here, thanks for the info. As you say, learning from mistakes is the vital thing with aviation.
Take your point too Herkman, sims have made a world of difference; keep on truckin' down there.

[BEagle]

RAF Thorney Island 1970. I was a UAS APO on Summer Camp and went along on a Herc CPT trip.

I certainly recall hurtling...well, rolling down the runway on one circuit when the LHS occupant reached up and pulled the #1 engine T-handle. It stopped PDQ and the co-pilot wrestled the thing into the sky quite successfully.

But lots of things have changed since then:

1. Practice asymmetric has largely been canned.
2. Most high-risk training is now done in simulators.

Oh and:

3. RAF Thorney Island has been transferred to the grunts.
4. UASs don't have proper summer camps any more.
5. UASs don't have many (or perhaps any) APOs any more.

[M2dude]

Ah Be Eagle. I DO have this MCT memory while I was at Lyneham: The A/C was on the final approach when there was a (false) engine fire warning. The AQM (before these good gents became Loadmasters) was drinking coffee, standing behind the Capt's seat. The coffee ended up down the captains neck, and although the fire warning was dealt with promptly and professionally, the air in the F/D turned very blue. I think the captain was heard to say, 'what do you think you are doing, you've spilt hot coffe down my neck'. (or word to that effect).

[cheesedoff]

The trees into which the aircraft crashed have grown back, however, you can still see a concave shaped tree canopy at the crash site. Not forgotten.

[andrew Scott]

Hi my names Andrew
I was 10 years old at the time of this incident.
My dad was flt Sgt scott known as scootie and ran the Sargents Mess at RAF Colerne at that time.
I was at school on that day - my school was essentially at the end of the runway from where I spent much time watching the contless touch downs and take off manouvres.
On this day I was in the play ground when i heard the rev of engines from an incredibly low flying herc.
We all stopped playing and stared at the almost stationery plane in the air - the plane was so close we could see the co pilot move his hands in front of his face - the plane groaned as it slowly tilted left and slowly lost hieght - we watched it slowly decend and crash in the woods on the far side of the field......
Black smoke and aviation fuel still haunts me - our school bus took us home right passed the crash scene opposite the station church where I was a Choir Boy.
I have much more detail and if anyone would like to know more just ask..
The church is still there but closed.
I may be imagining it but when I visit periodically and stand right in the middle of where the crash was I am sure I can still get the odd wiff of aviation fuel.
I was aware one engine not working but then again that was a regular sight.
So sad...
A day I remember like yesterday.
Bless the families and kids who lost their dad's.

[AR1]

M2 Dude. Xv193 and its crew left us in May 1993 Glen Tilt. RIP.

[Brian 48nav]

I was waiting for my 'leaving the mob' medical at sick quarters at Lyneham when the news of Tony Barrett's crash came through.
I believe there was a theory that the real engine failure had something to do with concrete dust being absorbed from the ongoing resurfacing of the main apron.
I discussed the Pisa crash on the 'worst detachment' thread the other day.
IIRC Roger Pain was the co at Tromso and incurred the finger injury.The captain was allegedly a bit of a t****r.His name cropped-up once or twice in later years in a none too complimentary fashion.
I believe 6 were killed at Fairford,there being 2 cos on board.

Brian Wildey

[Brian 48nav]

I've only just noticed the date of this thread and posts; I hadn't seen it before.

I blame it on 5 hours in the car today collecting M-I-L, (broomstick not de-iced).

[marthodg]

Sumps

My late father was the air loadmaster on-board XV198 when it crashed into Lucknam woods.

Martin

[Dengue_Dude]

Marthodg

Condolences belatedly. If it helps, and as an ex Hercules OCU instructor, I can tell you that 'they' listened and the patent lunacy of slotting engines for practice at critical times was stopped.

Your dad was an innocent bystander and just in the wrong place. Probably no consolation at all, but the teaching of this particular accident undoubtedly saved a lot of lives subsequently.

[Snapshot]

What a moving and equally thought provoking thread!
My late condolences also to you Marthodg!

It is a great pity that there is no memorial to these men!
Not that this should make any difference at all to it,
however, it clearly seems to be a turning point in SOP
and therefore quite significant!

It never ceases to amaze me how in our 'connected internet' world
so many people can now be afforded the opportunity to share 'their' memories, thoughts
and feelings with so many others related to incidents such as this!

Not only is it extremely useful to exchange knowledge and experience etc
But I personally feel can be very therapeutic to some of us who can be
unexpectedly caught up in what can be a life changing event!

At the time, the buzz is overwhelming and the system (body) deals with it at the time
but afterwards, sometimes many years, there are still memories, triggers
smells, noises etc that still affect people! Once the event is over everyone there
goes away from the scene back to 'normality' and many questions never ever
get answered, however, the questions never go away, they sit there in the dark
waiting for the next time something reminds the owner!

I believe these forums and our modern connected age help tremendously to
answer many questions and also link together many people who
in either a large or small way were affected by something like this where at any other
time in our history, reconnecting like this would have been utterly impossible!

I trust my comments and thoughts have not offended anyone?
They were certainly not intended to!
RIP all those onboard!
AB

[marthodg]

It's 40 year's ago now and his grave is in the Military area of Lyneham's cemetary (Walter Charles Natt) RAF. my late mother is also buried (cremation) at her request in the same plot.
He was promoted to Warrant Officer, Master Air Loadmaster just prior to the accident and turned a Commision down twice to settle down with his family in Wiltshire and he was a keen Angler (loved fishing and smokeing his pipe).

Martin, his son.

[Dengue_Dude]

Martin,

I was on the flight engineers course when this accident occurred. Prior to that, I had just been posted from Colerne where I was and engine basher before applying for aircrew.

I used to date a girl who lived in the Thickwood quarters and often walked the path close to where the aircraft impacted, so know that area intimately.

I hope that this thread has belatedly given you some closure. So many accidents are just that and often nothing major comes from it. More often than not they are interlaced with clear examples of human error.

This crew did nothing wrong. At the time, the training captain was only following SOP for the time and the aircraft suffered a technical failure (fortunately quite rare in this day and age). I suppose the point I am making is nobody was to BLAME per se, it wasn't negligence, it wasn't a 'cowboy' pilot being macho - it was simply an awful tragedy.

And, as been said above, lessons were learned - for all time on RAF Hercules. The SOP was changed and crews were not subject to this particular vulnerability, perhaps it was not as 'in vain' as most accidents. A very high price, too high a price to pay for all those involved.

If you wish to discuss this anymore, feel free to PM me and I will tell you anything else that I can or we can talk on Skype. I used to use this accident to teach crews about the massive forces involved in this kind of engine/propeller combination when not powered i.e. engine running down.

[India Four Two]

It staggers me that after all the Meteor and Canberra asymmetric accidents, nobody had figured out by the 70s that shutting down an engine at low level was not a wise thing to do.

[Herod]

What puzzled me (I was on the OCU at the time) was that the lesson learnt from earlier accidents hadn't crossed over. I recall that several years earlier a Wessex helicopter was hovering with one engine shut down when the other failed. The winchman was badly injured as the aircraft effectively landed on top of him. By the time I went on to the Wessex in '67, the procedure was to reduce power on the "failed" engine so that it was not giving any assistance, but was available if the other one decided to quit.

[eagle 86]

I think it was the mid eighties when the RAAF lost a 707 in Bass Strait with all hands during a double assymetric practice. QANTAS, operating 707's at the time, were horrified that the RAAF conducted this practice airbourne and not the sim.
GAGS
E86

[Captain Sensible]

It was indeed an awful day on 48. Later simulations at the C130 HQ at Marietta demonstrated that, in the given circumstances, there was nothing this poor crew could have done with a double engine shut down some 30 kts below Vmca2. As has been pointed out, we covered the eventuality in simulator exercises by teaching throttling back the opposite outer engine and hoping to crash land straight ahead with wings level. The same principle was also taught in the possibility of a single engine failure below Vmca1 on a Tac T/O. As a PS to the number of Hercs lost in asymmetric training, (not the Tromso one), we remember in 1974/5 XV 181 crashing on Thorney Island on CoPilot training asymmetric landing - he just lost it and the QFI couldn't rescue the situation. They all walked away, but the Fire Section spent most of their foam on putting out the ensuing grass fire - thus leading to a review of the Long Grass Policy in respect of Bird Strike prevention. However, XV181 was rebuilt, and may still be flying, I don't know.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

However, XV181 was rebuilt, and may still be flying, I don't know.


I think XV181 is now flying with the Austrian Air force.

I was on the 71 MU Bicester crash recovery team that moved the aircraft from the airfield to the 'Open Air' hangar at Thorney Island in 1974 using Track-Jacks in place of the nose undercarriage. I was also on the 71 MU team that dismantled the aircraft and transported it by road to Marshalls of Cambridge.

Aaron.

[Whopity]

And, as been said above, lessons were learned - for all time on RAF Hercules. The SOP was changed and crews were not subject to this particular vulnerability, perhaps it was not as 'in vain' as most accidents. A very high price, too high a price to pay for all those involved.
Sadly, an almost identical incident occurred to XV180 at Fairford on 24th March 1969 resulting in the loss of the first RAF C130, yet it was not until this second incident 4 years later, that anything was done to prevent T handling engines immediately after take-off.

I drove past Colerne later on the day of the accident. The only thing recogniseable was the tail section of the aircraft, and a few paper coffee cups hanging in the trees. The road was not shut, and there was little sign of any activity.

[Doctor Cruces]

FWIW, there was a Canadian C130 that crashed after losing both on the same side. Our UTP, CM, thought it would be good to get in the sim and see if it could be recovered. I went along for the ride and to select "gear up" as his arms weren't long enough to reach from the Captain's side. Tried it several times and crashed every one.

It seems that losing two on one side at low speed isn't bad enough but when sticking in a full boot of rudder into the good engines to correct the swing, not only does it act like a giant air brake and slow the aircraft but the action of yawing the aircraft in such a way seemed to stall the wing with the good engines and we just rolled over it and went more or less nose first into the dirt.

This was somewhere between 90-93 at LYE where I was one of the Training Co-ordinators.

May not have been a factor in the Colern crash but I thought it may be of interest.

Doc C

[Dengue_Dude]

I think we are getting into the territory of finstall if memory serves. Without the speed to ensure aileron authority the rudder causes a slip towards the dead wing.

When the side slip gets too bad, it masks the rudder, coupled with all the thrust and lift on one side, inevitably the roll is uncontrollable. VMCA2 is named because the aircraft is uncontrollable below that speed without chopping the thrust on the asymmetric outboard and changing the dynamics.

On a roller, we typically rotated below 110 kts, so chopping an engine (No 1) would induce a yaw and roll easily corrected by rudder and/or bank. No 1 feathered normally and presented minimum drag. No 2 then ran down and the prop would have NTSed, which does minimise drag without feathering the prop, but causes drag nevertheless.

So with only drag on the port wing and full blown thrust/lift on the starboard, there is not enough aileron authority to control the aircraft's roll. Finstall only exacerbates an already fraught situation.

This is all from memory, so please forgive me if it's a bit hazy, it was over 30 years ago we taught this accident, to help prevent further ones.

It's perhaps the enduring legacy of this accident that it never again occurred in the RAF.

Talking of the Canberra accidents above (along with Meteors), the irony is I lost two colleagues 10 years later on 231 OCU when a simulated asymmetric exercise went wrong at Wyton. The SOP was that tip tanks had to be empty or not fitted for this exercise (EFATO - simulated), however this aircraft had half tips (1000 lb or so) in the tips and the inertia was again, uncontrollable and the aircraft crashed after rolling to the right. It was the Stn Cdr who was transiting to Kinloss for a simulator attempting to get his ticks done for the Canberra en route.

Some lessons are SOo hard to learn.

[option911]

I was chatting to a gentleman last evening in Cleethorpes, he had been an Army Aircraft dispatcher and was on board XV198 during that mission. They were given the option to stay on board for simulated training but elected to get off during a brief landing at Colerne. He was then saying that the aircraft then proceeded to crash killing all 5 on board.

[OMFGDRNICK]

One of my earliest memories is of this crash. I was very nearly 4 years old when the crash happened. I was playing outside at the end of Poplar Way. I can vividly remember seeing the Herc bank over hard and crash into the ground. I remember looking over the fence on that road to see the plane and seeing the fireball and the smoke. Being not quite 4 I don't remember much else. It has been rewarding to know that I didn't imagine it and it surprised me just how many memories came flooding back when reading others accounts.

[Lyneham Lad]

While I was in the mob, circa '67 to '74 (almost exclusively at Lyneham) there were a total of 4 crashes. The first was in 1969 XV180 at Fairford, which occured in similar circumstances to 198, resulting in the tragic loss of the 5 crew. The A/C was on MCT and doing simulated engine failures. (Can't 100% remember what the cause was though).

Took this early last year whilst wandering around South Cerney churchyard. RIP.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1024x1017/southcerneychurchyard2a_5df40d6385eef7e94ccadf664a806a68746c e367.jpg

[Rafdaughter1972]

I was 16months when this happened but my siblings remember it vividly as they were in the school playground at the time. Our Dad was supposed to be on this as the Flight Sergeant but swapped places at the last minute. He always carried the guilt that he wasn't with them until he died in 2012.

[EGDLaddict]

If the 'flying' characteristics of the K Sims were at all representative of the aeroplane the test may have had a tad of reality about it.
B 707 control logic (such as it was) allegedly.

[EGDLaddict]

Minimum control speeds can be determined by many different factors.

[oliveau]

50 years ago yesterday.
The flight engineer, Sgt Peter Coate, was a friend. I’d often see him on Sunday evenings in the Crown, Bishops Cannings. The night before, 9th September, he said, “I don’t want to fly tomorrow.”
That has haunted me for half a century .
RIP Pete.

[DeanoP]

About 70 people attended, many of them relatives and ex 48 Sqn members, the very moving Service of Commemoration yesterday at Lyneham Church.

Act of Remembrance
Let us remember before God,
and commend to his sure keeping:
those who have died for their country in conflict;
those whom we knew, and whose memory we treasure;
and all who have lived and died in the service of humanity.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
we will remember them.
All:
We will remember them.
The Last Post
The Silence
The Reveille
When you go home tell them of us and say, for your tomorrow
we gave our today.


Sqn Ldr Anthony Barrett, FIt Lt Douglas Mills, FIt Lt Stuart Fraser,
Sgt Peter Coate, MALM Walter Natt


During the service the beautiful Memorial Bench was dedicated.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/img_3470_c4c10a46f5ed566cd0d2aca3fc290d34b2594ce6.jpeg