Of 25 yr-old commanders and heavy equipment

[flareout BC]

Hi, all
is it possible that today there's some place in mother Africa where twenty-somethings routinely take command of factory-new jet transports and with TLC galore from grateful patrons to boot? And I'm not talking half-baked products, but professionals with sound acumen and a confident knowledge of their place in history.
Such was common in Nigeria of much of the seventies. Its military government was peopled by types fresh from a three-year war and yet unspoiled by the obsession with the public purse that marred later years.
Then, a model training institute, CATC Zaria, in Nigeria's far north, turned out ATC, A&C, Nav Aid, pilot and other staff for the national carrier and others' from as far afield as Malaysia, Sri Lanka and the East African trio. CATC had been set up with considerable UN/ICAO help in in 1963, and maintained an excellent reputation till the late eighties. It housed Nigeria Airways' F-28 simulator.
The good times obviously were a product of spiralling commodity prices, but the truth is, the industry was in its infancy and as such, local pilots were a celebrated few. Public policy also dictated an airport for every state capital of the federation, which occured as Nigeria Airways recorded one of the highest growth rates worldwide (1976-'77).
To match the needs of the rapidly expanding middle-class, the government handed the airline a B707, two DC-10 30s, two B727-200s, five Fokker F-28 2000/4000s and an F-27 500, all cutting edge equipment then, in a space of 30 months. My native Benin City enjoyed a Lagos shuttle which, at ten rotations per day, barely met demand.
What makes it the more striking is the fact that the already high command time was not reduced [please correct me if I'm wrong]. To the contrary, McDonnel Douglas' in-house journal featured a Nigerian who attained DC-10 Captainship at 29, a world record.
Modest maintenance facilities (run by locals) in Lagos, did F-27/F-28 to C-checks alongside some component work (powerplants always went abroad).
Safety presented a clean sheet too, blurred only by the mid-air involving a military jet on approach to Kano in 1977, which was blamed on the other side.
The combination of factors earned that set of gentlemen an enviable lifestyle, never mind the fact that they were a much treasured elite.
But is there such anywhere out there today?
I'd be much honoured if you gentlemen would discuss it.

[Vlamgat]

Should the 25 year olds not still be flying light Piston twins in order to get some experience?? maybe learn about the weather, other african countries, operations and facilities. It is an absolute farce that little boys without the much needed experience in every aspect of aviation get to fly heavy equipment. It's a blooming Dogshow!

Go play with some toy aeroplanes!

Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway!

[Der absolute Hammer]

Trouble might be that not always has the Captain spent five years in the RHS before becoming a Captain before flying with one of the 10 hour 'God's gift to aviation' - in reality computer operators for whom Airbuses were invented. This flagrant sort of comment opens perhaps a can of the worms-nothing to do with Martin Luther-and passengers might be inclined to wonder why it is that certain Airbuses in certain flight modes are rumored not to be able to be auto pilot disengaged by the flight crew.
As for air force pilots in their mid twenties in charge of sophisticated equipment-well, it is rumoured that so long as no one is injured-well, what is another €/£/$ or two of the tax payers' money? Furthermore-more flagration-have you ever flown with one of these death or glory boys, straight out of his super fast jet (know of any slow jets?) into the RHS -or LHS - in a European or North American winter. Yessir!..talk about single crew operations in a hostile environment?
Not always of course-but then once time is enough perhaps to tarnish with the dripping brush the rest of the motley crew?

[Flyer14]

25 year olds in the US Armed Forces are more or less joining their first front line squadron at that age. It's all relative.

[LH2]

Should the 25 year olds not still be flying light Piston twins in order to get some experience?

Well, without getting into discussions regarding military pilots, WWII veterans, etc., a 25 y.o. can perfectly have over ten years of flying experience and quite a few thousand hours, piston or otherwise.

[Mister Geezer]

I got my first command (BAe 146) when I was 24. Plenty other people get their commands at a similar age nowadays. It is now nothing special and I think most people now accept that it is part and parcel of the industry!

[JanetFlight]

I've seen lots of very professional PIC's at KLM/LongHaul around 20's/30's...nothing new now in Europe:)

[three eighty]

I would think its about ability, not age.
I know of guys in their late twenties who are instructors on widebodies and are very good at what they do.

[oompilot]

Unfortunately at the age of 25 the average man is not experienced enough in life to be taking on the responsibilities required. It’s not about how Chuck Norris his abilities are but more about his ability to make critical decisions even before take-off about the flight and to counter others who may have 30 or 40 years experience in the flying game. Will they be able to do it, I doubt it.
Additionally, if some feel ‘droning’ around in a light twin on unscheduled, differing flights every day into different aerodromes having no radar guidance or auto pilot with less then half the navigation equipment found in most airliners helps nobody now days, then we have lost touch with what skills are required to perform our jobs as pilots. Sure your monkey see monkey do pilot can push the right buttons and read back clearances all while looking and sounding very cool but in my opinion under that exterior what we have is someone not experienced enough to deal with any curve balls thrown at him. Sure he will have had simulator training for certain scenarios but then so would our twin piston pilot once in the same seat, except, he would bring say 5 years of general aviation experience with him to the fight.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Obviously is not necesssarily so and also you beg the question a little bit there?
The thing is that the technical stuff, airborne and ground based has all improved very tremendously over the last twenty years. Whether this has allowed a sub standard species of pilot, compared to those who flew aircraft that regularily gave trouble and had to think for themselves, to enter the cockpits of todays totally automated Airbus is another saga. Perhaps what is not being acquired by experiencing flying before computer games is the development of that innate sixth sense which comes from flying all over the place (literally if you like) and which has got so many of our backsides out of the pyhton pit-including, I suspect, that guy in the Hudson (you know, the river, not the car).
Also-to say that it is normal in Europe for pilots to have command of aircraft in their mid twenties and that Europe has a far better safety record than Africa is a non sequitur. Africa has lousy maintainance and terrible radar/ground controlers. (SA excepted of course). And in Europe they do and we did, fly aircraft without working radar or half the navigation aids not to mantion auto pilot problems. We just were not allowed to but would have been in big trouble with managment if we had grounded the aircraft. What got us through most of the time? That hard learnt experience that tickles your sleepy old brain when something is just not quite right.
And then you get two of the greenhorns in the same cockpit?

[flareout BC]

In fact CATC was de facto a University; the scholarly bent was reflected in the dim view its products took of US-trained peers, untill they discovered the Yanks could fly every bit well as they, though. Two good years it took to get qualified (sorry I cant say for sure, but I think it was CPL/multi/inst). They were mostly government sponsored.

[flareout BC]

de absolute hammer needs read your two lines, boss. The relative in this case was heavily influenced by training as good as could be found anywhere else world-wide {look, the UN/ICAO played no small role and some of their managerial and technical/teaching staff didnt depart till the late seventies}. Graduands could not but be good. Relatives also showed up in motivation and such drive that went with being members of an elite corps

[flareout BC]

Oompilot and de absolute hammer dont get it do they? It's about competence, aptitude, and as I take pains to stress, motivation, {as only the cash-rich government of a developing country can provide}

[flareout BC]

Am not absolutely sure at the moment (and I'll find out and try get back to you), but Nigeria Airways of the early seventies couldn't have accepted much less than 4000 hrs for command, if at all. Most of its pioneer pilots were ex-BOAC; it wasnt until mid/late sixties that Polish and South African pilots appeared. So, standards were high. I think you should adopt the opinion of Flyer 14

[flareout BC]

is all I was after, more or less. That a dream life is said pilot's is something for which to be thankful to Goodness for them, dont you think? Thanks for the info, JanetFlight :ok:

[Der absolute Hammer]

Oh dear...

So in the seventies Nigeria took the best and the brightest from its military, experienced through three years of war. It put those recruits through a totally state funded two year university type course, in large part set up and operated by ICAO/United Nation staff, complete with their own in house jet simulator, leading to a pilot licence. Once these students graduated from this pleasant sounding place they were rightly accorded elite staus in Nigeria and flew for upwards of 4,000 hours with, at first, ex BOAC Captains and then Polish and South African Captains before transitioning themselves to the left hand seat.
Well-this is the Africa forum but generally speaking, it is probably lucky that most pilots in Europe do not really seem to need that sort of care and attention in order to get their wings these days.

[flareout BC]

Sorry if I got you angry. I admit a lot of my feeling is nostalgia, and I do get going when I recall them days, which in many ways are better than now. That set of expats was mostly gone by the early 70s; the soldiers remained soldiers, it was young civies who learned to fly, but I guess it's mostly insight into the dynamics of developing societies we're talking here.

[maxrated]

I cant believe how many people seem to react badly to the concept of a 25 year old heavy metal driver.

Many of the "Skygod Meneer Kapteine" would like the rest of humanity to believe that they are extremely profound individuals on account of their abilities to manage impressive bits of kit around the skies, then their own misconceptions about themselves gets blown out of the sky, every time any 4bar eppauletted, 20 something, snot nose kid climbs into a heavy jet and fly's 300 pax half way across the world equally as competantly and safely as any of the Skygods do.

Before anyone cries out the word "experience" or "emergency" again, remember that nowdays in modern airlines every thought and action that one has from sign on to sign off, is regulated and dictated from a pre-existing and pre-scribed set of rules, MOP's and SOP's ( all which must be obeyed lest you lose your job or fail your prof check), so ones massive intelligence and experience counts for little in any scenario because you have to do it by the book irrespective.

It is such a South African mentality and I hate to say this but particularly a way of thinking in the National airline that unless you "k@k'd off" in the right hand seat for 15 years first then you cant possibly be competant or mature enough to move across to the left side.
Looking at the average age of some of the Emirates (amongs other airlines) crew's proves otherwise.

A while ago a skygod was moaning about this exact thing stating that he had to "earn his stripes" sitting in the right hand seat for 15 years and so should everyone else in this industry.

People like that should remember that that mentality is from a different era and that the world is moving rapidly towards the year 2020, not backward into the 1980's.

To assume that someone cannot do your job as well as you , or better, simply beacuse they are much younger than you , is arrogant.

[Der absolute Hammer]

To assume that someone cannot do your job as well as you , or better, simply beacuse they are much younger than you , is arrogant.

No it is not. It is the self preservation of supply and demand.
There is an over supply of young pilots and thus they demand that the older ones retire earlier to make way for them.
The implication or assumption you outline above is pure self defence to coun ter the arrogant assumption of youth that it is entitled to something by the virtue of that very youth.

[maxrated]

The implication or assumption you outline above is pure self defence to coun ter the arrogant assumption of youth that it is entitled to something by the virtue of that very youth.
Today 19:04

Not at all sir,

A youngster automatically assuming that he is entitled to a position on account of his youth is just as arrogant as the skygod who assumes that the youngster is incompetant on account of his youth .

BTW I'm not a youngster myself, I have been told that I am late middle aged.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Well I am also not a youngster and also not a sky god although I do not mind when people call me one.
I guess though that the sky god you use in your example has a better chance of being correct than the youth.
'I did it the hard way and so should you' is not a kindly attitude I think.

[Alternative]

Copied from another site,but I think incidents like this highlight the fact that when things are going normal, having 400hr co-pilots next to you is fine,its when things go pear shaped that you need experience next to you to back you up!!!
Age is not the issue,but amount of experience at the time,btw I got command on a medium at 24.

Just ask the guys at Express!

Ryanair captain flew unstable approach days after son's death

By David Kaminski-Morrow (Flight Global)


Quote:
Investigators believe a newly bereaved Ryanair captain's psychological state, combined with his co-pilot's inexperience, led to an unplanned and highly unstable approach to Rome during poor weather conditions.

Italy's ANSV investigation agency says the captain's three-month-old son had died just a few days before the Niederrhein-Rome Ciampino flight, but he had not informed anyone of the situation, partly out of concern for his job.

The ANSV, which has just released details of the September 2005 incident, adds that the co-pilot of the Boeing 737-800 - who had just 300h on type from 475h total - had not previously flown in adverse weather conditions.

The crew had already been forced to weave a path around storms during a prolonged attempt to land at Ciampino. But instead of diverting to its alternate, Pescara, the crew opted for an unplanned diversion to Rome Fiumicino.

The investigation agency says the crew failed to brief properly for this, and did not update the flight management system during the turbulent conditions, resulting in the pilots' rapidly losing position awareness.

While south of Fiumicino and being flown manually, the jet started turning right at 3,880ft (1,180m) in preparation for the 34L approach. It crossed the extended 34L centreline, but continued to veer to the right, crossing the centreline of 34L again.

The ANSV says the co-pilot failed to switch radio frequency to Fiumicino approach and instead requested descent to 2,000ft. As the aircraft was heading for the parallel 34R approach path, controllers ordered an immediate descent to 1,000ft because this approach was in use by a Club Air flight.

The 737 crossed the 34R centreline at 1,650ft, about 5km (3nm) behind the Club Air flight, and controllers instructed the Ryanair crew track left and realign with the 34L approach.

But the crew was not informed that they were flying too low - 770ft below the correct profile of 2,200ft - and the situation deteriorated as the aircraft, according to the captain, entered a violent downward microburst. The 737 recrossed the 34R extended centreline, while still about 11km south of the runway, at just 370ft before finally abandoning the approach and diverting to Pescara.

It landed with 1,250kg (2,750lb) of fuel, from an initial upload of 8,200kg that covered the flight minimum, plus 950kg for contingency.

The ANSV says the unplanned diversion left the crew "without a definite strategy" and a "largely absent" decision-making process. Loss of situational awareness meant the captain, already in a poor psychological state, was forced to concentrate solely on flying the aircraft, with the co-pilot able to provide only limited support - although the ANSV credits the co-pilot with prompting the final decision to abort.

Issues about access to timely weather information and the need for better minimum safe altitude warnings, as well as the possibility of fatigue, are also highlighted by the investigation.

Ryanair changed its operations manual following the incident to emphasise the flight safety implications of personal trauma, and the importance of notification to flight operations management.

[poina]

I would rather my family fly with an experienced 25 year old who has been an instrument flight instructor , some single-pilot light twin time, who has actual handling hours than one who has been taught takeoff-autoflight-short final disconnect,which is the norm now in most airline policy manuals.

[flyingvikings]

I would like to know a rough estimate of how much the F/O are paid in Nigeria? Also, are newly employed F/O allowed on the international route or they are positioned to fly local only? please mate a better advise would be appreciated

[oompilot]

Suitcaseman you seem to lack understanding in the case above concerning Ryanair.
Firstly the aim of courses such as CRM is an attempt to teach pilots to identify when they aren't able to fly if not mentally fit to do so. This however is a difficult judgment to make by the crew member as it is the brain that must decide if the brain is not fit, how can this decsision be made if the brain is unfit. :uhoh:
Some responsibility does then fall on the operator to decide if it should be scheduling such a person. Hence their recommendations mentioned at the end of the article.
Your second point is equally as ignorant and lacks once again understanding. All the points you mentioned can be identified as 'mentally unfit to fly' errors as opposed to age related errors.

The point is that in this case with the captain not performing because of unforeseen circumstances, what was needed was a competent co-pilot.... say perhaps someone who had droned around in a twin for some time would have been better.:ok:

[NIJASEA]

Having a young captain is not the same thing as having an inexperienced captain. A pilot flying for 5 years on a 737 with 4000hrs and shows the necessary ability to make sound decisions should not be restricted to the right seat coz of his age. I have flown in the past with mature captains who have no experience beyond the daily routes they have always flown, I do realise they might be the exceptions to an otherwise realistic situation of Age and experience coming hand in hand..However I believe that pilots above the age of 60 should be restricted to being sim instructors or cruise relief pilots so as to pass on their experiences, at that age there is no need to put so much stress on ourselves, rather take life easy all dues to the industry have been paid so now enjoy passing on the wisdom. What age do you think a pilot should be a TRI/TRE?

[NIJASEA]

Guess I didn,t fully explain myself, SORRY GUYS> I feel they can impart more knowledge to others when they have the time to do so. I see more and more experienced guys not having the time or motivation to impart experiences to crew coz they only want to fly and go home. If they are placed in positions to reduce their work load I feel they would love to impart loads of wisdom. Can you imagine an experienced captain on the jump seat, he can see all the ways to advise without sounding condesending and making the crew feel they are on a check ride or being evaluated. I have nothing against pilots over 60 I believe competence should trump age anytime.