Emirates: Preferred Employer in UAE

[beechjock]

Hi all
There are alot of people reading the posts on EK who are contemplating of whether to sign up or not(hold pool and future applicants). So I would like to start a threat which would summarise working conditions at EK. If you currently work for EK then please respond to the following question:

Are you happy/unhappy at EK and state the top 3 reasons in brief.

Thanks and hope to get a good response with information that would make the "To Join EK or not" decision a bit easier!

Fly Safe

Beech

[kiwi]

There are no working conditions that can be relied on.
Emirates management remove, reduce and alter conditions as it takes their whim.
Be warned, the contract you sign means nothing. The enforcement of conditons of the contract is a one way street. Contract breaches by the company appear to be unchallengeable by the employee.
The companies HR department believe they have the right to alter manuals that you normally don't have access to, changing the complete meaning of (or simply ignoring) the wording of the contract you and they signed.
Heaven help you though, if you choose not to honour the conditions of the contract you signed, if and when it doesn't suit you e.g. Training bond!

[CAVnotOK]

I, as many have done in the past give the strongest warning against anyone applying to, or joining Emirates in the future.

Unfortunately, Emirates is kidding itself if they think this is a world class airline. Emirates has become no more than a glorified kindergarden. Both the Pilot, and Cabin Crew bodies are treated with such disrespect, and lack of regard when at the end of the day we are the face and backbone of the company.

The Management of Emirates is the most pathetic excuse of a group who are destroying the Airline simply because they have no clue, or experience on how to effectively motivate, and actually manage the employees, or the business. It seems that when they read about "ruling with an iron fist" on the cereal box, or in the fortune cookie it must have seemed like a good idea.

And last, but certainly not least....... if you write, and sign your name to an agreement, contract or set of terms and conditions then bloody well stick to them. This is the first and most important rule in business and life. You have got give some respect in order to get some repect.

I think the game is up EK, and it's going bite you hard in the ass in the very near future.

[Wiley]

Sadly, kiwi is pretty close to the mark. It would seem to me that someone towards the top at EK saw the global economic downturn as a very convenient opportunity to screw down the working conditions of the pilot group to what they would call a more realistic level. The pilots are perceived from above to be underworked and overpaid.

They (he?) concluded that, as has happened many times before for EK, other airlines laying pilots off would ensure a ready supply of pilots eager to come to Dubai, while that same downturn would stop what had become more than a trickle of pilots leaving EK for greener pastures. This (pilots leaving) was something that, until a few years ago, was almost unheard of at EK, and it has only been over the last three or so years that EK have had trouble attracting more than sufficient applicants with relatively high experience levels, many of whom have widebody time.

This is not to say they've always given said applicants credit for their previous experience after they've netted them. The employment of large numbers of direct entry captains, too many of whom very few people would consider suitable for the job, has had a huge impact on morale among the First Officers, especially when you consider the experience levels of many of the First Officers already in the company. (I hasten to say that this does not apply to all the DECs they've employed. However some, whilst experienced captains, were without any experience of Third World/ETOPS operations and have had a learning curve that is well beyond 'steep'.)

To make this situation worse, just when the company started to employ such people, to save costs, they pared training down to a shadow of what it once had been.

I think it would be true to say the DEC programme has had a similar effect on the morale of some of the captains, for with the large increase in DECs came what looked to me to be a deliberate policy from above to lower pilots' expectations and to lower the status of captain to the point that few now are under any illusions that they are seen by management as anything more than a necessary evil.

In short? While comments I have heard and seen here would suggest the situation is almost certainly far worse at other Middle East airlines, making EK still the best option of all the airlines in the area, the EK pilots are not a bunch of happy campers, and I'd have to agree with other comments made on other threads - come here only if you don't have a job already.

The really sad fact is that the people responsible for this sad state have it in their power to change most of these shortcomings, make the pilot group happy again and probably save themselves money in doing so. However, they don't see it that way and don’t seem likely to change their opinions until forced to do so.

[halas]

It seems that EK management have been running the airline successfully by default of economic timing.

Now with a 180 in the market, they seem to have come to a halt with ideas on how to run the business, and have turned to look within to try and prove they are still managing. They are completely distracted, or mores the point, trying to distract themselves from the harsh realities of the outside world

It's not too dissimilar when asking the Audi driver to turn the AC on.
Before you ask, he is (un)consciously looking ahead, but still going with the flow.
When you ask, he turns to look you in the eye and asks you to repeat your request, all the while traversing several lanes at a time, and attempting to kill all on board.

It seems neither can do both at the same time.

halas

[White Sausage]

Beechjock,
whoever I talk to on the line is unhappy, be it Captain of FO, me included. Don´t come here!!!
You wanted 3 reasons? I give you even more:

1. The contract you sign is worth sh:mad:t, EK doesn´t honor ANYTHING in your contract and keeps on changing whatever they like (but not to the better...)

2. You don´t have any rights! You are just a driver, dare to object to any of the contract breaches and stick out your head, EK will chop it off in a second.

3. You work your a:mad: off for peanuts. The package isn´t good or competitive anymore, prices in Dubai went through the roof the last couple of years, but EK is cutting back on your salary, so you end up with far less money than before.

4. Do one tiny mistake and you are fired. EK doesn´t give a rat´s ar:mad:e about you or your family or how many years you have been working hard and loyally for them, you are just a burden to them and they do management by terror.

EK used to be a great airline, sadly since about 2 or 3 years, since the talking horse and TCAS took control, it went downhill faster than you could even think.

So again: Don´t come here if you can avoid it, it is just not worth anymore!!!

[dubaibound]

I’ve been with the airline for almost 20 years. Although every once in awhile something comes up which drives me to distraction, in the main things have continued to go very well. The pay comes in regularly. Except for this (unusual) year there has been a pay rise every year. I have been treated extremely well throughout my career here.
I consider myself fortunate. I enjoy my job, I like the airline, and I like Dubai. I doubt that I am the only one.

[CAVnotOK]

Yes, I agree with you dubaibound. Anyone who has been here at Emirates for 20 years probably doesn't have much of a gripe. I would imagine anyone who has been in Dubai for 20 years has probably lost touch with the real world.

But even so, even someone who has enjoyed the best of EK should still be able to appreciate how badly this company has treated it's employees in the past couple of years.

Even EK's biggest fan should be able to admit to how bad things have become.
Time to get real.

[Wiley]

I have to admit that when I saw the user name new to Pprune dubaibound has chosen, I was unkind enough to think that "Bound to Dubai" might have been a more apt name.

I have to agree with him that on the whole, the company has treated me well over the years. However, even someone with double rose-tinted glasses would be hard-pressed to have missed what appears to have been an official change in attitude towards staff by EK senior management over the last three years or so.

[yada.yada.yada]

Preferred employer?

:yuk:

Think that sums it up

[beechjock]

Only 1 positive and lots of negative responses so far.... Hmmm leaning on the "not preferred" side right now..

Thanks alot for the replies and keep it coming!

Regards

Beech

[donpizmeov]

All these cuts when the company still made almost half a billion dollars in profit!!!!! What fun we can expect if they make a loss.

Seems not that long ago we got three weeks profit share and a pat on the back when we made $250million. How things change when greed takes over.

I also find it kind of funny that a list of frequently asked questions are attached to the letter stating that our contract is now null and void with regards water and elec. hmmmmm... who asked these questions frequently? Since this was the first anyone was to know about it. The same simpletons that came up with the plan? I truely hope they enjoy the bonus they get by creating these savings. Glad they made it retrospective as well by pro rating the cap!!!!!:=

I do hope that Emirates lists all the employees by name, that have donated money to next years bottom line by being caught in this fiasco, on next years profit statement. Will make quite a long list I should imagine.

Don

[Cessna1052]

All I can say, Its not the best time to join us.

As many have said, Its not what it used to be.:(

[nolimitholdem]

Between the company and area of the world it is based in, there is little to recommend Emirates to anyone currently employed. It has been interesting, to say the least. The dishonest, disrespectful, hypocritical, paternalistic approach taken by the management would take your breath away except for the fact that when it happens as often as it has in the last several months you begin to become numb to it.

I'm at the point where it frankly amuses me as I'm prepared for any and all outcomes including leaving with NO alternatives back home. So for now just sitting tight and enjoying the show. But I have no respect and no patience for anyone who joins now after sifting through these forums and thereafter complaining once they joined that they had no idea what these clowns are about.

Greed and lies. That's it, that's all.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

I loved EK when I joined in the good days. The sky was the limit, management was competent, work security bullet proof and quality of life in Dubai was phenomenal. A 4 bedroom villa went for AED 40000.-- with rent increases unheard of. Traffic? What traffic? Free parking everywhere. Great clubs, cheap and phantastic restaurants. Awesome beaches (remember Chicago beach?), lots of activities for next to nothing. Every crisis was an opportunity. Dot com bust, 9/11, Afghanistan, Gulf War 2.0, SARS, bird flu ... EK just kept growing stronger. Boy did we have an 'espirit de'corps'! About 2003 the downward slide began, just about when the real estate frenzy took off. Slowly, hardly noticeable at first. 2007 it accelerated. By now EK and Dubai are free falling in every aspect that matters.
If you are out of a job and desperate you might still join. Its highly speculative though. Something got to give. Soon. And then its either back to the old days (the potential is still there and I still have hope) ... or else.

[Jet II]

Its not what it used to be.:(

Nowhere is.

The glory days of aviation disappeared at the same time as Pan Am

[Aussie]

Yeah the good times finished when the LCC started.... not sure if that coincides with the time Pan Am went belly up!

[pissed]

Well I think you and everyone else should just about get the picture now.
Unless you have no job don't even think about it.
You have all been warned yet again but alas some of you I'm sure know better and will still come and will be screaming from the rafters about how you have been screwed.:mad:

[mshehada]

the airline is only 24 years!! just say how many years uve been working for them...... u make sound like its been there for ages....

[White Sausage]

And your point is???:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Flying Spag Monster]

His point is the airline is 24 years old...and he is 18. That's his point...that he's making, the one he is making here on Pprune, with his post. That's his point. Come on keep up.

[Yossarian]

I concur with SS. Much the same time in the company and much the same observations. This company is in a spiral and the management seem to just keep on pulling. They better level the wings soon or this one ain't gonna pull out.

Hard to see how morale could get any worse.

[Wiley]

I know it's a trite and grossly over-used statement, but it describes the current situation almost to a 'T':

"The whippings will contiue until morale improves."

In my opinion, they're almost guaranteeing themselves another incident, as virtually every pilot in the airline is distracted, looking over their shoulders worrying about how they'll explain themselves to those on 'The Tent Floor' rather than getting on with the job. I know I've pushed myself on occasions in the past trying to make the system work, like really cutting things fine to make a departure right on curfew for example. I would not do so in the current climate. Like I suspect almost every other captain (and even moreso, FO) in the airline today, I will work strictly to the rules, taking my time to double check everything.

Those who'd care to troll through the Pprune archives will see that three years ago(?), an embittered ex EK pilot posted here complaining about the circumstances of his dismissal. (He's posted again in the last week or so on another under his new PPRuNe handle, 'Bitburger'.) He received virtually no support from any EK pilot when he made his complaints then, as many pilots, myself among them, defended the company.

I don't believe he'd find anyone doing so now.

[Jet II]

For info on above post I've been at EK 9+ years, so have seen quite a change. .........

I struggle to think why anyone would want to come here in the present climate

perhaps if you hadn't been at EK for 9 years your view of the market might be slightly different?

[sheikmyarse]

Sorry Mate

But after 20 years in this ****ehole... you probably lost contact with reality.

cheers

[ekpilot]

Obviously all is about money around here. Once you are here, you accept it or leave it! Well we all know that fact by now. Very sad i agree. Lately more then ever EK is reminding us by changing the goal post every email we receive. It took me a long time to accept this kind of mentality. Conditions were going down when EK was making billions $$$ of profits. Remember why we are here. Money. Dubai is only about money, and we all know that. Now EK is loosing big $$$ and they have inexperienced managers in these type of waters. Unfortunately management is making big basic mistakes. They killed the confidence bond with their pilots while making a 400M$ profit. Morale is at all time low. People a stressed going to work. Safety has a cost. They have missed the opportunity to motivate their pilots by investing some of that profit money in saving the morale. Hiring is at a stand still. 16 B777 coming with bare minimum additions of pilots in the next 12 months. The pilot force will get more stress in the coming months by working to maximum legal limits EK style for less money. What is next... well time will tell, but again we all know as experienced pilots and it won't be a surprise. Remember you are on your own here, not like in other major airlines. We have seen it before. They have very very big commitment ahead with all these orders. But it happens that the guys down the road have the same. But they have the cash and can afford it. We can't, simple! We all knew as experienced pilots that this time was going to happen at one point where reality would kick in. Well it's here BIG TIME. The company can't rely on the government for money anymore. Actually I'm pretty sure it's the other way around now. The boat has passed for the "great opportunity" for pilots at EK. Aviation is all about timing. I got here 10 years ago. It was right time right place. Today if you come to EK and sit in the flight deck beside me and expect anything but 7-8 years to upgrade i will smile. I will understand your concerns. But i will tell myself wrong place bad timing. With the credit crunch around the world there will be good opportunities in certain type of companies coming up. I think EK has become too big too fast for the type of management in charge. They created a monster and now they have to live with it. It won't ever get better for pilots here that is a fact. Next step will be lowering the experience minimums to fill the seats in the name of money. Put more heat on the PIC. But we all know that. Only one thing left to do for us, save as much money as you can while here so you can exit at one point. Oh yea, one more thing :) they say that they will back you up if you stick to SOP, but remember that all mistakes made are always outside SOP, clever hein :) Don't let greed delay your move if you can't handle this type of pressure, use your only option ;) There is life after EK. Serious times ahead for all.

Quiz time : Can you tell me one improvement in the T&C of the pilots in the last 5 years. Just one :(

Keep Discovering :ok:

[Wiley]

Seeing ekpilot's comment about ever moving goalposts reminded me how some things are constant. This is the last paragraph of 'The Caravan', the sticky that appears at the top of the Middle East forum, and written by a disaffected pilot about EK almost 20 years ago.
Time passed, and the ever suffering effohs wearied of the promises of the Master Cameleer. Some lost hope and many found other roads to tread as new caravans started up in their own Lands. As they took their leave, they cried aloud as one: "We seekest roads on which the Golepostes art not fixed upon the backs of swift moving camels!"

[oscarlimatango]

a very wise EX airline CEO said, "if you want to be a millionair, become a billionair and start an airline"...everybody at that time said that he was stupid! and who is laughing now?

i had a huge arguement with my GF, who just joined EK engineering department. I told her that in comparison with other airlines with limited resources, EK is not that efficient. Her arguement was that American Airlines sucks because of their efficiency, and EK is the best because of their efficiency. My argument was this, that EK is better because they have access to "not better" but cheaper resources and their operations and management is based on a bottomless bank account. American Airlines, with the resources of emirates, could be a much better airline.

My point, EK has to finally come to realize that market forces and conditions have come to pay them a visit, and for you EK pilots, this it the time to decide if you would like to work for an airline which is in a financial battle for the first time or for an airline that is already battle hardened! the choice is yours, this grass was green, but the camels have come and shi:mad:ed and pucked and grazed, and now there is nothing left for you goats!

PEACE

[ferris]

Only a financial illiterate would consider payrises significantly less than the rate of inflation as an "improvement in T&Cs".

[Saltaire]

Yup, just about covers inflation, well done. Anything else? :O

[ferris]

Well, Mr Knuckle, it's really irrelevant whether EK or the government is responsible for inflation (I could take issue, but that's a whole other thread). Inflation is a fact. And if you are looking at your pay and it's increase, without regard to inflation, then you are, as I said, financially illiterate. Not going to continue arguing why. Not arguing that EK is obliged to keep up with it, or any other such nonsense. Just replying to your stance that T&Cs at EK have increased in the years mentioned.

BTW, considering ONLY food and beverages: F&B increased 17.3% in the last quarter of 2008, alone. (source ERG-Hermes). Makes the 12% for the year increase you quote look, well, miserly. How do you like them apples (pun intended ;-) )

[kingoftheslipstream]

beechjock

I've been roun' here nigh on 13 years. It was real good fer a while, pretty good fer a while an' now it's pretty bad.

So far this year (2009)

1. Loss of productivity pay, about an 18% reduction in monthly earnin's.
2. Loss of ticket to my Annual Leave Destination. I only get part of the way now an' have to pay my own way. Several Canadian's 'n Americans in this boat. This really sucks. It's been a hallmark of expatriate life that an employer send a professional home at least once per year, all the way home, on the company dime. This has been sacred... till Emirates found out they were only makin' hunderds of millions instead of billions.
3. Restriction on utilies bill introduced, in contravention of the contract. Mine says I get accommodation an' utilities paid. Don't mention no changes. I'm probably under the limit anyway, but it's principal.
4. Institutionalized discrimination: locals get better pay and pensions. Us expats get the square root of $#%& - all. Our provident fund is seriously not enough money to do anythin' on once ya retire. 'Cept maybe buy a tent er somethin'.

Management don't listen, don't wanna listen. There's no ear here for anythin' from the workers side of anything.
2009 is gonna be a bad year. Loads 'r down, yeilds 'r down and some airframe delivery delays are planned in 2010 fer 'bout a year or so (at present anyhow).

I reckon we're gonna see some serious decline in revenue an' associated options.

I don't give advice - yer a grown person. But heed the facts.
Good luck 'n Happy Contrails.

k-o-t-s

[ferris]

Hard of thinking?........uh hmmm.
So here's the tricky part - which of the following BEST describes an improvement in terms and/or conditions? The correct answer, to anyone with other than a child's view of pay/T&Cs, is that you cannot know, without a frame of reference. The answer might be A. If inflation was running at -50% for condition A, and at 25% for condition B and C, then A is the correct answer.
How else can I put it so even the simple understand? Okay, when they paid you more cash, did your position go backward or forward or even just backward but not as much as before? How can I answer so the simple understand? If you only look at how much more money you get in your hand, without regard to how much everything costs- and therefor how much money leaves your hand- then I can't help you. Especially when the people giving, are the people taking. You would be/are a dream employee.

[AC Driver]

Mr Knuckle, ouf ouf, what an emotionally based reactions. Might that be because you send all your money home and have nothing left to "improve" your lifestyle while you are in Dubai? :O

My (and I guess for the the majority of human kind) definition of improvement is:

a change for the better; progress in development
the act of improving something; "their improvements increased the value of the property"
a condition superior to an earlier condition; "the new school represents a great improvement"
source: wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Not even covering inflation does not fall under that definition for me ... ;)

p.s. Where did you get those inflation figures from? I'm impressed. You in all your wisdom should know that inflation can be "creatively" calculated in everyones own advantage. How do you think it is calculated in the UAE?

Probably it is their approximate because their memory isn't that accurate but close enough ... selectively...:sad:

I'm glad though that there is some people still very happy in Dubai ... I think that's the trick guys, send all your money home, only buy F&B and happiness is there... :D

[ferris]

Round in circles.

So, you believe that pay increases at rates less than inflation are an increase in T&Cs?

Ok, then, I'll leave you to it. Sorry if the 'financial illiterate' comment stung, but if the shoe fits....

[AC Driver]

I could be wrong but you look like the type that always wants to be right? I have no idea why I get that impression... :E

Then also, the only one who seems to react worked up is you my dear Knuckle ... maybe you should use some of your money to enjoy yourself and relax i.s.o. being so emotional.

"Suckers"? ... not a nice word you naughty boy := But who are suckers? Anyone who does not agree with your point of view?

I can see and understand your point but I think you have to understand that others might see it differently?

About your comment on the "english" ... no clue what that has to do with it ... it might be because I'm not so intelligent ;)

Live and let live and enjoy your house full of F&B and the money you send home.

[ekpilot]

Guys, it's not because they pay you more money that you make more money. Let me rephrase my question. Find me one positive change in the T&C in the last five years? Remember that if they pay you 12% more money to do 13% more work... well that is not an improvement. Anyways! Think and name one positive improvement in the T&C in the last 5 years. ( Ex: vacations, bid system, credit for pelesys, days off guaranteed before leave or something ) You guys will be surprise of how much we lost compare to not one improvement.

Keep Discovering :ok:

[AC Driver]

Dear Mr Knuckle,

Wondering why your posts have disappeared, just when we started to have some fun! ... :bored: Pity that the discussion thread doesn't make sense anymore.

[kiwi]

Maybe he's finally been adversely affected himself by one of the EK management's new policies, possibly the new upgrade policy. It's only a matter of time before they do something that affects you individually, no matter how hard you try to stay happy with your choice to be here.

[AC Driver]

Hey KIWI, I think you're right. I think he also finally sees the light. :cool: