Log Book Forgery

["Littlebird"]

Goodbye licence and career if you have!:=
Besides the usual ramp checks currently very active around Cairns, Torres Straights, and Darwin, CASA have also started to audit pilot's logbooks. Experienced it myself on Wed. There will be an article in the Sep-Oct issue of 'Flight Safety Australia' which you all should be getting.

CASA inspector turns up to Operators base and issues notice for x number of logbooks to be available the following day for inspection. They won't remove the logbook from the premises but will scan and copy a whole heap of pages. I was told that they were looking at types flown, dates, and rego and doing crossreference checks with their records.
I'm not exactly sure of the process afterwards, but I do know that 3 of our charter pilots had their licence revoked from CASA and fired from work yesterday. :{

Please tell if you know more.:ok:

[bilbert]

Good to see CASA doing their job. If you are doing the right thing you have nothing to worry about. Incidently, haven't see any FOI's in the Torres Straits for over 9 months.

[slow n low]

but I do know that 3 of our charter pilots had their licence revoked from CASA and fired from work yesterdayWhat a sad state of affairs if indeed these folks are found to have forged entries in their logbooks. :ugh:

[The Green Goblin]

I've got addition errors all over the show in mine eeeeek!

I hope incompetence at addition is not a cause for loss of licence :{

[SNS3Guppy]

The world at large does a much better job of verifying and policing pilot logbooks than the US, but years ago one of the defining points early in one's career was to have obtained the ATP written release, in the USA. This was a FAA release that authorized the holder to go take the written exam. The reason it had some significance then was that the FAA audited the logbook before issuing the authorization, including calling owners or operators of aircraft in the book to verify specific flights at random.

I've done government checkrides that involved over three hours of logbook scrutiny. Today, however, in the US, very few every get their logbooks looked over. For the most part, the majority of the pilots I know are honerable and don't falsify their logs, but I've known a few who have.

I had an assistant chief pilot years ago who was a smooth talker, but whom I suspected had falsified much of his experience. Imagine my surprise when I happened to be across town one day, and wandered into a FBO. There on the wall was a list of students who had graduated, with a picture of him, missing his shirt tail...a year or so before. He had zero experience, he'd lied about everything.

Recently I worked with an individual whom I was sure had falsified his experience. He was inept, knew so little I suspected he'd either been a very poor student pilot or still was one, and here he was going through screening for a job. He claimed airline experience, he claimed flight instruction experience, and claimed to have instructed for some fairly prestigious names CAE Simuflight, Flight Safety International, etc). After some checking, we soon learned he'd not flown for the airline or the instruction facilities; he'd lied about everything. It showed in his speech, his knowledge, and his flying.

I think in both those cases, the best thing that could have happened to them was an audit such as the CASA system going on now. It would have helped many others who could have potentially been influenced or put at risk by those individuals. I certainly wish the FAA had a similiar practice, in the United States.

[HEALY]

I feel sorry for the guys that have actually flown VH BIC or VH PEN. Out of curiosity do those rego's exist. Cant check on this computer.

[greenslopes]

Look we all know they exist, the sooner CASA do the appropriate checks the sooner these toads are out of the industry.

[load it, launch it]

Healy,
VH-BIC a PA32 in NSW, and VH-PEN a C182C in QLD
:ok:
Load It

[havick]

I hope they weasel out just about every one of them... Finally I actually applaud CASA for doing something proactive and relevant to the industry.

I never thought I'd ever actually say appluad and CASA in the same sentence in my lifetime.

Guys/girls who bodge up their logbooks is my biggest pet hate in the industry, especially when you plug away for years and years yourself doing the right thing and ticking the boxes legitimately.

[Dave Incognito]

Was it part of a routine company audit?

During an audit back in '04 CASA went right through a number of logbooks at the company I was working for. They were quite thorough with cross checking logbook hours against MR entries. While nobody was caught flying any mystery flights, a couple of guys were questioned about some generous allowances for taxi times…

[Dan Winterland]

Good on CASA. Logbook fraud is one of my major hates and I'm glad to see that one aviation agency has the required danglies to do something about it. Loss of licence is the correct penalty IMHO. It sounds a bit draconian, but if some one has the audacity to commit fraud to the extent that he is prepared to endanger himself and other people by claiming skills and experience they don't have, it's the correct one.

Other authorities do have safeguards in place. In Italy, every logbook entry has to be countersigned or stamped by the aircraft's operator. The CAA (UK) has been actively checking up on pilots who have been hours building in the US claiming huge numbers of hours in short time periods and have caught a couple of people and a lot of military logbooks are countersigned. In the RAF, we had monthly and yearly summaries, each countersigned by two people.

However, this didn't stop some. I was flying with a UK long haul operation where commands were coming fast and there was a race for guys to get the minimum hours. One ex RAF fast jet pilot applied for a command, but the fact he had more hours than his contemporaries didn't ring true to the company. They got some of his ex colleauges from his old squadron who were with the company to check his logbook and he has fictitious hours.

And even worse, with one of the UK Charter companies, one F/O passed his command. The company asked him to bring his log book in for endorsement. the chief pilot was suprised to see his RAF logbook claimed he was on a squadron with himself at the same time, but the chief pilot didn't remember him. Turns out his whole RAF flying career was a fabrication as he had actually been an Air Traffic Controller! He was prosecuted by the CAA as well as being sacked.

I have heard of pilots bragging about P51 hours in thir logbook (that's Parker 51 and not Mustang!) - they are stupid. If I had one making such a claim, I would have no compuncture about shopping them.

[eeper23]

What on earth were they forging? Hours on the aircraft that they had been flying? Or hours on an aircraft type they hadn't been flying? :=

If they forged hours on an aircraft type that they had never flown, then I guess CASA would be able to find this out easily. What about logging flights on a company aircraft that you never did? Would'nt CASA just obtain a copy of the MR, and then add a bit more on for taxi?

And how many hours are we talking here? 1? 5? 100? 500?

Idiots! :ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

I've got addition errors all over the show in mine eeeeek!

Yeah I've got em to. I wonder if they are checking for accuracy or forgery.

Accuracy I think they will find a large pool of people with errors.

Forgery well why would you?

[Dan Winterland]

I'm sure it's deliberate fraud. As for accuracy, any pilot with more than a few hundred hours is going to have errors. I once started putting all my hours onto a modified Excell spreadsheet. I stopped when I realised after a couple of thousand hours entered that I was quite a few hours adrift. Underclaimed though!

[Chocks Away]

They want to take a look at many of the jet operators, as many "young-uns" with S.J.S have got through very quickly, due to Log Book Audits not having been done when a candidate is interviewed, for many years!:}

[sms777]

An ex friend of mine while he was doing his flying training back in the early '90's used to bludge free rides in back of aircrafts whenever they went cross country navs. After he would log the entire flight in his logbook as PIC. He would even log the hours while a passenger on a domestic flight on his holidays.
Today he is a captain of an A320.

I wonder how many more like him out there. :hmm:

[havick]

sms777

unfortunately it's more common than you think. I know someone who bought an aircraft, and then somehow magically had 1000 hours extra in their pilots logbook using that aircraft's rego, however when the same machine was onsold sometime shortly after, the M/R only had about 250 hours or so on it.

the worst part about the whole story, the company that then employed knew about it, but still put them on purely because there was no-one else about at the time that ticked the right boxes hourswise on type as far as the contract they had required.

Who would you say is worse, the guy for bodging his logbook, or the company that knowingly turned the blind eye to it?

Pity that the said person is flying overseas now, I would've loved to have seen CASA check out their logbook.

[Aerodriver]

At least one more airline captain I know of.

[FGD135]

Accuracy I think they will find a large pool of people with errors.

Of course, those "errors" should be evenly distributed between increasing and decreasing the true total. For this reason, genuine errors have an insignificant effect on a pilot's true totals.

But if all, or most, of the errors have the effect of increasing the total, then these errors will not, of course, be seen as errors at all ...

["Littlebird"]

Mr.Hat,
We were told they are targetting forgery. I had a discrepancy of 7.5 hrs and could justify the error. This was OK with the inspector.

Eeper,

"What on earth were they forging? Hours on the aircraft that they had been flying? Or hours on an aircraft type they hadn't been flying?"

One of the young chaps claimed 250 hrs command spread over a 3 month period on JWX a Duchess. Apparently it was a Sydney based aircraft online with one of the flying schools. He did this to get some multi time and bring his total hours to 1000 hours as required by the operator at the time to secure a job.
The problem was JWX was written off in a fatal crash in Sydney, some 12 months prior to what he claimed in his log book! The rego VH-JWX was then assigned to a helicopter. CASA knew JWX at the time was in fact a helicopter not a Duchess. :D

[PyroTek]

I remember before my GFPT my instructor was comparing my logbook to my records.
He called me through to tell me i was 0.2 over in one section.. so we put a pencil mark next to it and i was called back.. a different entry was 0.2 under.. so i technically got the right total.

:ok:Pyro

[Mr. Hat]

GFPT/1000 hrs or so fair enough but after you've got a few thousands of hours I doubt people are sitting there vigorously adding up every single minute really.

[rmcdonal]

There is a big difference between a log book error and a forgery.
I hope CASA have a look, maybe they can tell me where the 1.2hrs is that my log book is out by, I have spent hrs going through it with no joy.

[slow n low]

F#ck me, Ive got to front the OC at the very least if there is a 0.1hr error in the logbook at the end of the month... :uhoh:

[the wizard of auz]

Bodging the book is a fools game in my opinion. it will bite you in the ass eventually, and hopefully those that do it get caught.
On the other hand, how will CASA ever find out about the several thousand hours that.......... someone........ has flown and not logged, due to not being rated for the work or endorsed on type?. :E

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

I started an Excel logbook back when I had 100hrs.. kept it going, and luckily my log book matches it.

I flew with a knob once... he claimed (as a pax) in the PN68 as command and put my name down as Co-pilot. Told me I needed to log it command and put HIS name down as Co-pilot. Thank god he spelt my name wrong!

then the tool told me that... wait for this... its Gold!

PIC is when you are endorsed on an aircraft and in the front seat ( left or right and even if you are a pax, he logged command on a B58 charter as a pax. didn't even work for the company that flew the acft )

Co-Pilot is... it gets better! ..... Co-pilot is when you are NOT endorsed on an aircraft... and you are in the front seat..

FK me, I could have some B737 Co-pilot time in my book from when I was riding jumpseat!

what a tool!

no wonder CASA wouldn't honour his 2CREW, 727 endorsement from Yogslavia. Anyone at casa pm i'll give you his name and last known location

[ZEEBEE]

Yes, but CASA is also interested in hours being legitimately entered in log books but NOT in the MR.

Seems like some twits do the hours and are happy to log them without realising that the underwriting of the MR is an even more heinous crime.

[VH-XXX]

Is it a crime if you haven't filled out you log book for 5 years?

Would they accept the 296 logs as a logbook?

(semi-serious questions)

[AerocatS2A]

Is it a crime if you haven't filled out you log book for 5 years?

Would they accept the 296 logs as a logbook?

(semi-serious questions)
You too huh? Mine's not that bad, I have two log books running, an electronic one that is up to date and a paper one that is up to date once every six months when I front up for some kind of check.

[FGD135]

The other day I logged .5 alone trying to takeoff at Darwin. Come get me CASA!Nothing illegal there, rep. But to not have logged that would have been illegal.

I knew this bloke, aged about 40 at the time, who had 11,000 hours in his logbook (including 1,000 at night).

But to hear his views and opinions (on things flying) you knew that he was closer to the 5,000 hours mark.

Pilots that really have 11,000 hours don't think and sound the same as 5,000 hour pilots.

This individual was particularly vain - hence, I believe, the grossly inflated logbook (his image as a pilot was the subject of the vanity).

PM me CASA - I would be only too happy to give you his name - and specific periods in his flying career that you would find interesting.

[VH-XXX]

I know someone that logged time in a Seneca as a rear facing passenger in the back! He came unstuck when his instructor (the Seneca owner) was going through his log book for his BFR and noticed his own rego :rolleyes:

Can someone tell me how to "quote" in my posts? I don't have a "quote" button............

[Peter Fanelli]

Can someone tell me how to "quote" in my posts? I don't have a "quote" button............

No...it's classified.
We could tell you but then we'd have to kill you.


Look left of the you tube button

[PlankBlender]

quote button is the third from the right directly above the window where you enter the text, in between the mountain and hash icons....

or you simply put " [ QUOTE ] " text to quote " [ /QUOTE ] " around the text to quote, omitting the spaces I put in..

[coconut99]

An instructor buddy of mine told me a few years ago the story of a fresh young student pilot who brought in his logbook to be signed off by his instructor at this particular flying school he was at. The instructor opened it up to discover it was already half full with hundreds of flights on all sorts of aircraft ranging from his real training flights to long haul in B747 and Airbus aircraft. Turns out he had also been logging all his microsoft flight simulator time. Wonder if he had the space shuttle in there too. :bored:
....

I met this big headed jerk about 2 years ago who had about 40 actual hours and hadn't yet (probably still) been released for his first solo (which I later found out). He had friends who were low time pilots who would take him up in their piston twin flights. Anyway, I was at a function (non aviation related) and this guy was bragging to a few of us about all the 'Duchess, Seneca, Partinavia etc' co pilot time he has logged and told us he was currently working as a 'Co pilot' on these multi engine aircraft flying all over the country. Not knowing any better, a few of the ladies he was trying to gloat to seemed quite impressed about it. He almost fell out of his chair redfaced when I told him I was a pilot flying jets for a major airline. Turns out he was actually logging this 'co pilot' time and tried to defend himself to me about it. What a f:mad:g muppet.

[Lineboy4life]

I once logged time in a piper cherokee - surely this act alone is illegal :}

[desmotronic]

I couldn't believe it when issued my ATPL CASA only wanted to see the last three pages of my logbook. Totally inadequate IMO. CASA should start with an audit of all ATPL licence holders especially if employed in RPT, anyone with fraudulent entries can lose their licence and find a new job. :*

[YoDawg]

Then there was the Ansett pilot who had "logged time" as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot with the RAN. He was found out when some real ex-RAN fighter jocks in Ansett were asked if they knew him and they denounced him. Turns out he'd been a cadet or midshipman or whatever and never seen a "Scooter" in his life...

He's now with Qantas and climbing the greasey pole.

[smiling monkey]

There's a guy on the South Asia and Far East forum who claims to have 8000 hours at 24 years of age. This would mean flying 1000 hours a year since 16 years of age for 8 years straight! How many people fly max hours right from when they started ab initio? Flying max hours as a student pilot? yeah right!! lol!

BTW, I was told by an FAA flight instructor that any hours you fly after getting "your ticket" (his words) is PIC time if you're rated on that aircraft for that type of operation regardless of whether there is another pilot flying. ie, it sounds like you can you have two people logging PIC time in the US? Sounds dodge to me!

[Mr. Hat]

okay maybe sloppy maths isn't what they are after then!

I can't believe this actually happens. I've not met one pilot thats done/admitted to it (yet). How stupid.

Heres me worrying about being a few hours out!

[Deaf]

296 hours underestimate quite a bit.

When I get enthusiastic (or usually - have to report hrs) i put the 296 flights in a spreadsheet and add a bit for taxi to match the hour meter. This has been as high as 0.16hrs per flight for a period of short flights which seems a bit much for taxi at the fields concerned.

[The Green Goblin]

I'm about 6 hours out in my favour! don't know how that happened but I suppose I'll close off the page and cite addition error, then start on the correct figure on the following page.

Only problem is finding out where this error is!! When every column is in use in your log apart from single engine ICUS and multi engine night dual, it will be a pain to track down.

I think when I add the next page I might subtract it from the total which will keep it neat and run with that.....

hmmmmm

As for these other scum bags forging entries, karma will get you my friends. I just hope it doesn't strike you down with pax on board :suspect:

[mcgrath50]

If you do find you have a) credited too many hours b) credited too little hours or c) not logged a flight what is the standard thing to do to make it kosher again?

[Mr. Hat]

Maybe an entry titled "logbook correction" - 0.6

Near enough good enough.

[cunningham]

Why stop there. What about fake degrees, HSC's references etc. I have heard a few examples during my career. Obviously they don't check that well.

[PyroTek]

This is something which really gets me, Why infact would you WANT to forge hours?
When you hit your 1000, 10000 hour mark (if you go that far) you should feel it as an achievement and something to look back on, as opposed to hitting the 10,000 hour mark and going "sweet, time to forge another 5,000 hours.."

I'm pretty sure that most pilots who are honest about hours get a really good feeling when they hit x hours. I wouldn't want to throw that away.

[Worrals in the wilds]

What about fake degrees

My hunch is that it would be surprisingly easy to bodge a degree. I had a dreadful punch up with my Alma Mater (one of the bigger unis) because they had no record of a degree I completed a decade ago. They also get very 'privacy conscious' if you try to verify records, even if it's your records. :ugh:

I reckon a degree would be far easier to forge than a logbook, because aviation is a small game and (as has been shown here) it's easy to run into someone who knows better or can smell the lack of experience.

Pyro, Lord knows, but IMHO some people are just dishonest and will use any shortcut they can find, moral / legal or otherwise. :yuk:

[RadioSaigon]

Yeah, I too once knew a bloke that had a penchant for ummm... exaggerating his experience. I only found out about it when I ran into his boss one day and he asked me about how much time I'd spent training him -to which I responded "I ain't an instructor of any flavour -he can't log any of that time!"

What twists my knackers worst though is that when his boss died, this was the same guy that lead the charge on a very public (ongoing) persecution of him.

His time will come.

[206greaser]

Hey Littlebird does this mean there are 3 more charter jobs out there atm?!

Might be a slight drift, but is writing in your logbook in red pen to mark a particular achievement legal? I wrote my 1000th hour day in red.

Perhaps i'm naive, or to trusting, but I can't believe that folks (scum) would actually forge entries in their log book!

Cheers,
Greaser

[RadioSaigon]

296 hours underestimate quite a bit.

Yup, I think that's because they don't start recording time until you pass some arbitrary speed -maybe about 35-40Kts? I'm not sure if it's something that's user-configurable or not The FTDK would give you the good oil on that. Other thing to keep in mind it doesn't record taxi time -which is also loggable given your flight time is considered to be "from when the aircraft 1st moves under it's own power for the purpose of taking flight until it comes to rest at the conclusion of that flight" -or words to that effect :ok:

[the wizard of auz]

I think once you hit the +5K hr mark, your maths becomes a little sloppy. I have gone months at a time and not recorded anything in my log book. then I get all conscientious and have a collect up of all the bits of paper in my flight bag, fuel receipts with writing on them and look at all the maps with writing on them, do a reconciliation and add them in the appropriate columns. I have no doubt i have under recorded by missing flights here and there, but all my maintenance releases are up to date and done daily as required by the regs.
I'm not relying on my hours to get me into a job or qualification, so I don't think I'm going to upset anyone......... well more than normally anyway. if anything, I have more :E experiance than my logbook states. How could that be detrimental to anything?

[JulieFlyGal]

on the casa website (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_90100) it says;

"Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;"

does that mean you can go to jail for it?

and why aren't you allowed to keep an electronic log book? i thought there'd be less likelihood of addition errors if you used an electronic version.

[ER_ZZZ]

If there looks like an issue, they normally check the airservices bills and aerodrome operator bills. These have a "to the minute time" of take off and landing. ie if you fly to the outback and cancel sar in a 2 bob town or minesite this time is recorded, as is departure etc.

So if you think you can get an extra 0.3 etc you are kidding yourself..

Just not worth it.

[compressor stall]

A pilot must keep a personal log book [Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51]
A log book consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed;
An electronic record is not acceptable as a log book, however, a computer printout bound together in the form of a log book and maintained up to date is acceptable;
All manual entries to the log book must be made in permanent ink;
This log book is to be produced to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) when requested;
Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;
There is no regulatory requirement to carry a personal log book on a flight.

Note this is guidance, not law :E

CASA link (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_90100)

[startingout]

Quick question; I cancel my SAR backtracking the runway, then need to wait 3mins for the turbo's to cool (Legal Definition to log is chocks to chocks, so yes I may cheat by 1min... but really when the engines run, I've always been told thats what to log), in theory adding up to 0.1hrs of time to my flight every time I go up, if CASA see this discrepancy would they care?

SO:ok:

["Littlebird"]

206 greaser,

I' not sure what the company intends to do about the 3 departures at this stage. I know it has been quite around here for the past 4 weeks, so the CP might decide to see how things pan out with the current force.
Please do not PM me as we are not allowed to discuss this any further at this stage. In good time everyone will know, and CASA seemed confident at the debrief on Friday that there will be many more to come.

Locations to be audited will be random but they did say they will return for another audit on the company after their visit to Horn Island and Darwin.

[the wizard of auz]

If there looks like an issue, they normally check the airservices bills and aerodrome operator bills. These have a "to the minute time" of take off and landing. ie if you fly to the outback and cancel sar in a 2 bob town or minesite this time is recorded, as is departure etc.

So if you think you can get an extra 0.3 etc you are kidding yourself..

Actually, that is not a valid way to check anything. If I depart Gunnadora station and track via 6 windmills to see my mate at Windimurra station, then head off to Leongatha, the only record of any flying done is a recording of an arrival at Leongatha. It could be any one on the radio, and impossible to prove, and you may have three aircraft cheating the system and using your rego on the same day.. also impossible to prove. VFR flight is not full reporting any longer, so a SARTIME can be replaced with a flight note in commercial operations and nothing at all on a PVT flight. there is no record of you leaving anywhere.

[LeadSled]

Folks,

The definition of "flight time", for the purposes of your log book is quite clear, and in the definitions in the Civil Aviation Act 1988.

Given some of the comments in this thread, I would strongly recommend some of you familiarize yourself with what you are legally required to log, before the CASA audit.

Falsification of a log book is not only an offence under the Civil Aviation Act, it is also an offence under the (Cth) Crimes Act.

It has nothing to do directly with "tacho" time, which isn't really time at all, or air time, the latter goes on the MR.

Be aware that any conviction for an aviation related offence will bar you from entry to the US, and potentially a number of other countries. The possible result for employment and career ambitions is rather obvious, as some I know have found out the hard way. The data exchange between US and Au all all too efficient in this area.

If you have any doubts about this, I suggest you visit the USCIS web site.

Tootle pip!!

[Cloud Basher]

There's a guy on the South Asia and Far East forum who claims to have 8000 hours at 24 years of age.

I know an 18 year old with 2000+ hours and every one is legit! He had 500+ hours before he turned 16 and went solo!

BTW, I was told by an FAA flight instructor that any hours you fly after getting "your ticket" (his words) is PIC time if you're rated on that aircraft for that type of operation regardless of whether there is another pilot flying. ie, it sounds like you can you have two people logging PIC time in the US? Sounds dodge to me!

I am flying over here at the present time and I don't think that is right, but when I got a checkout in the C310 here I was told to log it as PIC time as I already had a ME Rating. They don't do individual ratings in the US for ME types below 12500lbs like they do in Australia. However to keep it all inline with Aussie licence and CASA happy I have logged that time as dual. Don't think an extra couple of hours 310 time as PIC will mean much in the big scheme of things!

Cheers
CB

[PlankBlender]

LeadSled, if you're being patronizing, at least get it right :E no offense, but it read a bit like that :} good points made, however :ok:

The definition is in the Regulations, not the Act :8

flight time means:
(a) in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft—the total time from the
moment at which the aircraft first moves under its own power for
the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to
rest after landing; and
(b) in the case of a lighter-than-air aircraft—the total time from the
moment at which the aircraft first becomes airborne until it
comes to rest on the ground, excluding any time during which the
aircraft is moored.

Given that you'll be moving under your own power in most cases shortly after engine start, VDO time will be close enough -- and the fact that pretty much all training schools teach their students to log VDO, and charge for it, would suggest it's accepted practice and condoned by the regulator..

What you record on the MR is actually up to the operator, MR time is convenient as it buys you around 10-15% extra time between 100 hourlies, but no-one would prevent you from logging VDO or tacho as long as you're being consistent..

[Peter Fanelli]

Then there was the Ansett pilot who had "logged time" as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot with the RAN. He was found out when some real ex-RAN fighter jocks in Ansett were asked if they knew him and they denounced him. Turns out he'd been a cadet or midshipman or whatever and never seen a "Scooter" in his life... Yep, then there was the CASA examiner or whatever they call themselves now who used to go around telling everyone he was a famous C130 pilot, that is until he bumped into some former C130 pilots in Darwin I believe.

Same guy who was onboard the Gulfstream that buried itself up to the fuselage at Goolwa that day.

BTW, I was told by an FAA flight instructor that any hours you fly after getting "your ticket" (his words) is PIC time if you're rated on that aircraft for that type of operation regardless of whether there is another pilot flying. ie, it sounds like you can you have two people logging PIC time in the US? Sounds dodge to me!

I believe a court here once determined the PIC of an accident aircraft to be a pilot sitting in a back seat of the light aircraft. Decision made on the basis that he was the most experienced pilot on board. Seems like a good reason not to fly unless you are actually in a control seat.

[Tankengine]

Cloud basher:

"I know an 18 year old with 2000+ hours and every one is legit! He had 500+ hours before he turned 16 and went solo!"

Unless things have changed recently.
16 is age for student licence, no more than 3 hrs [I think] can be logged before having a student licence. So he did 500+ hours dual with an instructor?:confused:

So his pre age 16 hours are not loggable and possibly illegal!:ugh:

Glider pilots can solo at 15 and hours can be put towards licence hour minimums but are kept in a separate logbook and not used in totals normally.
[I don't add my 2.5K gliding to my power hours!:E]

[Tinstaafl]

It's not really correct to say that MR time is up to the operator. The rules specify wheels off to wheels on for the aeroplane's MR. If you happen to use a device that records more time than flown then no harm done. It's not CASA's worry if the aircraft's maintenance falls due sooner than necessary. After all, there's nothing stopping you from putting your aircraft though a 100 hourly then 10 hours flight time later giving it another.

As for what's loggable by a pilot, that depends on the jurisdiction. No limit on how much is logged as dual prior to holding a Student Licence in the US. Also no multi endorsements so once you have a multi licence you can jump from one multi to the next (as long as its not one that requires a type rating or has some design feature you're not qualified to use).

Flight time limits in the US are different too. A typical non-scheduled Part 135 pilot ie flying the equivalent of 'charter' in Oz can do up to 1400 hours per year of Part 135 flight time and even do over the limits privately if the additional time doesn't precede a Pt135 flight eg do the maximum hours for the day but then can fly privately for as long as you feel capable & competent.

[flog]

This would mean flying 1000 hours a year since 16 years of age for 8 years straight! How many people fly max hours right from when they started ab initio? Flying max hours as a student pilot? yeah right!! lol!


If your dad owns an Ag operation...

[PlankBlender]

The rules specify wheels off to wheels on for the aeroplane's MR.

Tinstaafl, do you have a reference to the rules for me, I am going on advice from my LAME..

:ok:

[Cloud Basher]

Tankengine,
You are right, I was including glider time (person actually flew gliders before powered) as well as recreational aircraft.

Cheers
CB

[blackburn]

From CAR (1988) Regulation 2

time in service means:
(a) in relation to an aircraft — the period starting when the aircraft takes off on a flight and ending when the aircraft lands at the end of the flight; and
(b) in relation to an aircraft component — the period:
(i) during which the component is fitted to or provided in an aircraft; and
(ii) starting when the aircraft takes off on a flight and ending when the aircraft lands at the end of the flight.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote "This is something which really gets me, Why infact would you WANT to forge hours?"

The answer is simple. To get ahead of your peers and to get the job before they do. In a previous post I mentioned a pilot in my company who falsified his logbook in the race to get the minimum hours for a command ahead of his colleauges. The company minimum for command was actually set by the insurance company. If he had acheived the command, had an incident and the insurance company had found out about his fraud during their subsequent investigations, the policy would have been rendered invalid. This could have been significant as in this case the aircraft type was a 747.

[HOMEWORK]

An instructor buddy of mine told me a few years ago the story of a fresh young student pilot who brought in his logbook to be signed off by his instructor at this particular flying school he was at. The instructor opened it up to discover it was already half full with hundreds of flights on all sorts of aircraft ranging from his real training flights to long haul in B747 and Airbus aircraft. Turns out he had also been logging all his microsoft flight simulator time. Wonder if he had the space shuttle in there too.

I have to admit, I laughed. How do people like this actually exist.


I couldn't believe it when issued my ATPL CASA only wanted to see the last three pages of my logbook. Totally inadequate IMO. CASA should start with an audit of all ATPL licence holders especially if employed in RPT, anyone with fraudulent entries can lose their licence and find a new job.
Sounds good to me, more jobs for the honest.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Best one I heard of was a (supposedly) QANTAS interview.
Skipper looking through a logbook notices a fair amount of time on "XYZ" and remarks.
Potential employee launches into a full history of the company, jobs he used to do, placed he went etc. etc.....

Skipper says, "Well that's very interesting because I actually own that aircraft and I'VE NEVER HEARD OF YOU."

Candidate would apparently listen on the radio and whenever he heard it (and others) coming and going would record the time.

HA.:}

[Tankengine]

Q for the troops :

What do you think of people "forging" their logbook by REDUCING/not adding hours due to flight and duty times etc?:confused:

[Mr. Hat]

Skipper says, "Well that's very interesting because I actually own that aircraft and I'VE NEVER HEARD OF YOU."

WOW!

What do you think of people "forging" their logbook by REDUCING/not adding hours due to flight and duty times etc?

Was very common amongst some mustering chopper pilots i knew.

[FGD135]

What do you think of people "forging" their logbook by REDUCING/not adding hours due to flight and duty times etc?
That is still falsification - and equally as serious as the addition of false hours.

Note that errors - genuine errors - cannot be considered falsification.

[tmpffisch]

You don't have to log all hours you fly though don't you?

But for instance flying 2.6 but only logging 1.6 due to duty times is surely a no-no.

[werbil]

Bit like the pilot looking for a job when asked 'any accidents or incidents' that answered 'no'. Person asking used to own an aircraft that the wannabe was the PIC of at the time it was written off. :ugh:

Aviation - small enough that the bull:mad:ers will often get caught.

[Tinstaafl]

No requirement to log hours at all in the US, except as required to demonstrate minimum experience requirements for ratings & certificates.

[Outtahere]

There is also the guy who forged his Hsc certificate to get a job with Ansett. He was 'discovered' half way through the ground school & sacked.

He's a Jetstar 330 Captain now.

[Phlap1]

And the priceless cheat who went to Bermuda after the
1989 disaster, made or stole Bermuda Civil Aviation
official stamps and gave himself endorsements on a bunch
of transport types, Learjet, 737,etc.
He returned to OZ, got the endorsements into his OZ
licence and went up to Malaysia to fly the 737.
The Malays got suspicious as he had no idea about
the 737, they informed CASA who finally shredded
his OZ licence. Who needs to forge logbook hours!
He's probably in Bermuda flying Gulfstreams!

[blackbird71]

They shouldnt just take their logbooks but hit it where it really hurts...in the wallet.
I know of a mofo who is a PIC with a reputable oz carrier who logged a bunch of hours on VH-BIC and you know what its pricks like this that seem to get away with it.
Thankyou CASA for once....will hear what comes of it. If nothing then an annon report will surely get their attention.

Enjoy it while it lasts YOU MOTHERF:mad::mad:G DOGS!!!!

Peace to the rest of you battlers though

[JulieFlyGal]

with all these cases of logbook fraud, why hasn't casa laid any criminal charges on the offenders if its a criminal offence? doesn't send a good message to the flying community does it? :rolleyes:

[PlankBlender]

I think us honest folk can rest easy in the knowledge that this type of fraud has one massive drawback: It takes away the beautiful feeling of being free above the clouds and knowing you have the best job in the world :D, doing what you love, being respected for the work you've put in to get where you are and for the professionalism and skill you used to get there and which people see along with the pride of doing the best job you can every day, hoping you'll be even better tomorrow :)

These guys (possibly even a few gals, but I'd be surprised, the pride/guild glands are colocated in females methinks :}) who lied their way into the business end of a shiny piece of metal go to work every day with the nagging thought that today might be the day they get found out, lose their job, the respect of their peers, and everything they worked (but also lied) for.

They will never ever be able to perceive flying as what it truly is, and so what if they're ahead in the seniority list, earn more money, fly the bigger jet, and have the bigger house? They're the poorer human, and they're missing out on the thing that makes flying truly special :=

Any even if these scumb@gs can bury that guilt deep in their unconscious for a while, it'll sure as a headwind come back to haunt them, and eventually it'll get them :} one way or the other, at the next tea & biccies or as stress related heart disease decades later :\

Right, beautiful day out there, I'm going flying :) Blue skies everyone ;)

[RadioSaigon]

I think us honest folk can rest easy in the knowledge that this type of fraud has one massive drawback: It takes away the beautiful feeling of being free above the clouds and knowing you have the best job in the world :D, doing what you love, being respected for the work you've put in to get where you are and for the professionalism and skill you used to get there and which people see along with the pride of doing the best job you can every day, hoping you'll be even better tomorrow http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

Worth the repetition -beautifully spoken :ok:

[jackson's_joyflights]

Any one know the exact rules that are to be followed as part of an instructor rating with respect to mutual flying. Is there a reference in the legislation somewhere? Wanted to make sure there isn't any forgery in my log book?

[Unhinged]

Several references:

CAO 40.1.7 Sections 4.1A, 4.1B & Appendix 1 Section 2.4
CAO 40.3.7 Sections 2.1& 4.2.2
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Pilot Log Books (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:890958215:pc=PC_90100)

"Mutual Instructor Flying Involves two pilots who are qualified on type, flying together for mutual practice on a flying instructor course. One designated pilot may log time in command and the other student instructor may log time as co-pilot. This flight time may be included in the Grand Total Hours."

[tw682]

Anyone know CASAs latest hang out up North. Heard they have been doing the rounds. Any major targets on top of this logbook forging??

[blade root]

Flew with a guy who claimed he had 5000+ hours(flew like he had 5), he lasted about 2 weeks before being asked to move on.

It came to light that he had forged his logbook, so he left aus. Last I heard he had crashed and burned killing 3 people.

An obvious lesson to anyone doing this..

[Worrals in the wilds]

...and to people who hear about this type of thing.
There is a fine line between being a dog and reporting dishonest practice. There is also a fine line between right and wrong. If more dodgy stuff is reported to CASA, accidents may be prevented. If not, at least you tried to do the right thing. You may distrust the regulator and that is probably justified. However, without information, they cannot begin to know where to investigate.

Spoken, sadly, as a true ex-government operative :hmm:

[jackson's_joyflights]

Thanks unhinged,

The regulations quoted don't relly apply to log book but rather the 20hr mutual component, however the CASA website clearly states what mutual flying should be logged as.

Thanks again,

JJ

[Alice Kiwican]

Firstly just how far back were they checking these logbooks or was it just a case of handing over every logbook the pilot had and CASA randomly picking an entry? I know quite a few who have 3 or 4 logbooks! You'd think it would be no mean feat to pick an entry from say 13th June 1992 for example and pulling up the records for the flights.

Also I thought when operators had their yearly audits the company pilots logbooks were routinely checked for discrepancies, anomalies etc.

There was a major investigation a couple of years ago regarding a certain C&T guy which saw many pilots losing their logbooks for about a week and then having to explain each and every flight they did with said C & T guy. From all reports that was not a pleasant experience at all considering 99% of them had done nothing wrong!

[cficare]

Alice
From all reports that was not a pleasant experience at all considering 99% of them had done nothing wrong!

So why did 99% of them feel the need to lose their logbooks??

[Alice Kiwican]

cficare,

I meant that these guys/gals had to surrender their logbooks to the investigators for about a week! Why I didn't phrase it that way to start with is beyond me!! :ugh:

[cficare]

Thanks Alice....makes sense now!!

[Mr. Hat]

Could be that the majority had not filled out their logbooks for a loooong time. I know where i work there are quite a few that haven't updated theirs in quite a while!!

I do mine at the end of each month. I've let it go in the past and its not a fun excercise catching up.

[pw1340]

I once worked with a chap who was meticulous with his paperwork. He would sign the MR without fail when he started flying and fill in his logbook everyday when he got home.

He was doing his CP interview when they (CASA) started to check his logbook against the MR's, they found major discrepencies in the records. He was shocked, they were getting all excited because of the great service to aviation safety they were conducting, having caught him out.

He was perplexed at the discrepencies and decided to cross reference to the spraying records, (ag pilot) to discover that during the night season he was signing the MR when he started his shift e.g. 10pm 1 Jan and filling his logbook when he finished his shift the next day on 2 Jan. Another source of discrepency is this; when signing the MR you are only certifying that you have conducted a daily inspection on the aircraft, in fact any pilot endorsed on type, LAME licenced on type or AME with MA on type can conduct the daily inspection and sign the MR certifying this. So if you finish for the day and another pilot flies the same aircraft that day, they are not required to sign the MR as the DAILY inspection has already been conducted and certified in the MR. You are NOT certifying a preflight.

Of course the over-zealous inspectors were none too happy when thier great fraud discovery turned out to be nothing.:ugh:


I have also worked with people who logged a lot more than they flew. It always catches up. Firstly they give the impression of being of a very low standard for their 'experience' and eventually when it comes out what they are doing, it costs them any bit of cred they had left.:yuk:

[Capt Claret]

I was surprised to bump into a fellow at a CASA Heavy Aircraft Perfomrnace seminar in the late 90's, whom I had worked with in the 80's. He, then, was quite open about the Parker Pen hours.

When at the seminar, he was employed as an FOI at a major GAAP. :eek:

[PlankBlender]

soseg, dual flying as per the defintion section of the CAR's is 'for the purpose of receiving flying training from a person who is authorised by these Regulations to give the training'.

[aseanaero]

Any even if these scumb@gs can bury that guilt deep in their unconscious for a while

In my dealings with habitual liars and cheats they don't experience guilt

[poteroo]

CASA also Cross-checks Other Docs

It's not just logbooks and M/R's. At our last flight school inspection by a CASA FOI, (early 2009), both instructors were asked to match up M/R times to Logbook times to student record sheets to daily flight sheets.

They were all OK, except that they didn't always match at the M/R end, because it depended on whether that aircraft had been flown by another pilot on the same day, but in respect of the logbook to DFS to SRS they did. In the case of the M/R daily 'total' - this was broken down by checking the flight record sheets of/in each aircraft - which show all flights seperately.

happy days,

[Tmbstory]

If a person has forged his / her log book they must know it themselves. This would show a lack of integrity and non suitability for any flying role in the aviation industry.


Tmb

[AerocatS2A]

1. What the hell is this VH-BIC you guys talk about? I'm not catching on? I'm presuming its a joke about the company BiC that makes the pens? ie "BIC time" is fake time?
You got it, it's an old joke referring to flight time that exists only in the form of a pen entry in the logbook, i.e., no flight actually took place. It's possibly less obvious now that Bic biros aren't as common as they once were.

And yes, "dual" is something you do with an instructor, when you are in the right hand seat with another PPL, you are a passenger regardless of whether you manipulate the controls or not.

[qtn]

Tmbstory, do you really think thos that 'Parker'their logbooks care about that??? Many operators do audit their pilot logbooks. I have known pilots to add in considderable flight time after they left one operator and before they started with another one, all to get those minimum hours. Bstrds.

[The Green Goblin]

If anyone has read an Ernest Gann book you will come across a story about a guy called Dudley who lied his way into a position as a skipper on a DC4 if memory serves me correctly.

He was subsequently found out after a check flight with the FAA at the time, however did not learn his lesson and some time later killed a few passengers after lying his way into another job he was not qualified for.

Some time later he committed suicide.

Well worth a read :ok:

[neville_nobody]

For all those guys worried about 'errors' in their logbooks you can have accounting errors within a certain percentage of your total time. There is a CAO about it but I can't remember what the figure was. It was quite large like 5 or 10% of your total time.

[kalavo]

For all those guys worried about 'errors' in their logbooks you can have accounting errors within a certain percentage of your total time. There is a CAO about it but I can't remember what the figure was. It was quite large like 5 or 10% of your total time.

Sounds like hogwash... got a reference?

[simonflyer]

**The Green Goblin**

I cant agree more..

The book is called "Fate is the hunter", and it is an absolute classic..
:ok:

[Tee Emm]

For many years there was an ANO (now called CAO) that stated if you had an ATPL you could log ALL hours flown as in command. One airline captain I knew claimed over 40,000 hours and some of this claimed time was actually when he was dead-heading. He said the ANO allowed this - and he was right; although not very principled. Since then CASA have re-written the rules. Another airline pilot with total 5000 hours including 3000 on the 727 as first officer, claimed over 2500 hours as instrument flight time even though this was all in Australia and mostly fine weather. It certainly paid off because his hours got him a job flying big jets out of Hong Kong and is now a multi-millionaire. .

[Tmbstory]

QTN:

I understand your comments, however the people concerned, when they look in the mirror each morning, will know if they have added hours.

Regards

Tmb

[j3pipercub]

Carry a copy in my flight bag...

[pimo]

In Europe the false entry is punished only if it was on a purpose of getting a licence.

So the EU-OPS states:

" A person shall not make, procure to be made, or assist in making false representations for the purpose of procuring either for himself or any other person the grant, validation or renewal of a licence or rating"

This makes more sense, because i think if you have 3000 hrs on a 737 but you write you have 5000 hrs it doesn't affect your licence but the operator where maybe they wanted a guy with a higher hours.

I believe what happened in CASA is that the guys put to many hours to get the licence and that is why they have lost it.

[PlankBlender]

pimo, I think morally there's no difference between lying/cheating/faking your way into a higher license and making up the hours to push some other (by definition more deserving) pilot out of the way to get a job. :rolleyes:

I think you'll also find that falsifying a document like a logbook (here in Oz it has the status of a statutory declaration) will be looked at very unfavourably by prosecutors and company lawyers alike, and you'll be in a world of trouble when found out, not to mention you'll be unemployable (at least in the rest of the developed world).

For the sake of the reputation of the pilot community, and of course for the collective safety of aviation, m@rons who falsify their books in any significant way should be sacked and prosecuted, there's just no place for them in aviation.:ugh:

The Gann story is a poignant one, make people believe you're compentent to do a safety relevant job when you're not, and it can become a nightmare you might not be able to recover from...

[Ted D Bear]

It seems CASA is starting to insist the MR hours for the day are entered at the end of the day's flying - don't know about others, but I was always taught to fill the previous day's hours in when doing the daily the next day (in case someone flew the aircraft unexpectedly after what you'd thought was going to be the last flight the day before). Now I'm wondering if this is so it is easier to cross-check MRs when doing a log book audit ...

[The Green Goblin]

You can always just re-sign again for the same date if you need too.

[NEDude]

[QUOTE]BTW, I was told by an FAA flight instructor that any hours you fly after getting "your ticket" (his words) is PIC time if you're rated on that aircraft for that type of operation regardless of whether there is another pilot flying. ie, it sounds like you can you have two people logging PIC time in the US? Sounds dodge to me!/QUOTE]


This is not entirely correct. In the USA there is a difference between logging PIC and acting as PIC. You may log PIC anytime you are "sole manipulator of the controls" for an aircraft you are rated in (this also includes time the aircraft is operating on the autopilot if you are the "flying" pilot). In other words by the FAA, I am legal to log PIC time if I am flying as the SIC on an A320, I have a PIC type rating, and it is my leg to fly. You may also log PIC if you are acting as PIC (ie ultimate responsibility for the safety of flight). So yes, you can, under certain circumstances, have two pilots logging PIC. However if you are not the designated PIC (by dispatch release or type of operation) you must be manipulating the controls in order to log it.

I believe this is the reason why many applications specify that PIC time means "aircraft commander" or some other similar statement.

[Deaf]

Incidently re logged hours.

If you loose your logbook CASA will only accept hours since they last saw it. Insurance companies may be different (both under and over).

In my case I put down hours:

X hours on certifed copy of APPLICATION FOR PILOTS LICENCE (CPL in 197X)
Y hours logged since 2000
= logged hours and quote logged hours (X+Y) + Z estimated hours on missing logbook separately

Insurance companies can be funny about both ends

[haughtney1]

Throw the book at them! I recently invested in a computerised logbook programme..turns out I can't count! I diddled myself out of about 150hrs..I wonder if I can get the flight pay..hmmmm

[amateur]

Hi guys, Casa audit sometime soon and the boss is hammering down on us making sure all our flight/duty times and logbook entries are cross referrenced and correct.

In this process we've all stumbled on maybe one or two flights where 2 pilots have gone up for single pilot ops in the 210 or 172 and both logged command time. Now we are trying to figure out who actually gets to keep the logged time. A few of our staff have held FIRs and justify that they are PIC but just practicing from the RHS, while the person in the left seat had just assumed they are PIC because they are left and it was not stated otherwise. Considering both pilots are sharing workload and both equally manipulated the controls, one from the LHS the other from the RHS, who gets the time? We are all bickering like little girls because its going to mean redoing all our flight and duty times which are all hand written. Also, is it legal to have whiteout on our logbooks?

Cheers

[MadMadMike]

When CASA does a log book audit how far back do they go? As in do they just cross reference aircraft and flights at current employment or go back into previous employers and aircraft?

[archangel7]

That's a good qn... I don't think CASA would go to that extent unless they have been tipped off by someone or feel that you are dodgy..

I once new a guy who forged his twin hours for a good twin job and he said that almost everyone does it in the industry and it’s not a big deal. He is now a captain for a reputable company.

My advice is, the punishment does not fit the crime ... in the end, you are only cheating your self!

[AerocatS2A]

amateur, if the guy in the right hand seat didn't indicate they were PiC for the flight and didn't do the take-off and landing, then the left seat pilot should keep the PiC time. All in my opinion only.

Let this be a lesson to you guys to brief who is in command of a flight before you fly! Imagine if you'd had an emergency and you both tried to make conflicting command decisions.

[Peter Fanelli]

When CASA does a log book audit how far back do they go? As in do they just cross reference aircraft and flights at current employment or go back into previous employers and aircraft?


Worried????

[VH-BIC]

I would be.

That is if CASA actually followed up on these things, I mean if they don't follow up on this stuff and in a hard way, what's the point in working your arse off when another guy just sits at home writing it in?

Makes it a joke.

[amateur]

Yeah, we've learnt our lesson haha. But in regards to my question, even though technically only one pilot was required for the operation, considering equal work load was shared eg one guy took off flew first few hours then other pilot flew and landed, would one of us be able to log that as Co-Pilot time?

[Checkboard]

Also, is it legal to have whiteout on our logbooks?
Corrections in official records normally require a single line through the incorrect entry (so that it can still be read), followed by the corrected entry, and the initials of the person doing the correcting.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Also, is it legal to have whiteout on our logbooks?
My first logbook (FAA) had light green pages... and my instructor had matching "greenout"

Cool story Hansel!

FRQ CB

[boofhead]

An airline in Asia has the crew record instrument time (actual) for all of their IFR flights (which is every flight they do) except for about 10 minutes to allow for ground time. Every member of the crew logs this time, even the off-duty crew. So if the airplane was to fly Korea-JFK for 15 hours with a heavy crew of four pilots, there would be a total of 60 hours recorded, even if the airplane did not come close to a cloud the entire way. The crews would all get p1ssed at me when I would strike that out of the master airplane log and write in the actual instrument time (often zero). They still do it of course.

An electronic logbook is hard to start, since you often have a lot of flights to record but once up and running you don't have to worry about the totals. And finding out how many hours, landings or flights you have made on a multi engine amphibious biplane is as simple as clicking a button.

In the US you can be prosecuted even as a passenger after an accident or incident, if you are in the front seat and so much as touch the controls. Even if when you touched them was a couple of hours before the incident.

Also in the US I see students who do not yet have a licence logging PIC time when they are dual (they log both).

The logging of flight time is regulated in most countries but not in the US. It is not necessary to have a log book, any method of record-keeping is acceptable and you don't have to record any time except that needed to meet a requirement. They mainly go by what you put on your medical each 6 month/year/5 yr. And of course that is just a guess!

So if you are competing for a job at Emirates/Korean with a chap from the US, forgetaboutit. He will always trump your numbers.

(I hold US and Aus licences and have used them, as well as others, so I know the drill).

[UnderneathTheRadar]

In this process we've all stumbled on maybe one or two flights where 2 pilots have gone up for single pilot ops in the 210 or 172 and both logged command time.

Stumbled? yeah, right.

Answering your second post/question - excellent idea transferring PIC duties mid-flight. Make sure explain to CASA thats what you did and then, to help them out, direct them to CAR224. It would also be helpful to draw their attention to subregulation 1A so that they may appreciate that your offence is one of strict liability.

Finally, the guy sitting in the right hand seat should be ready to show the nice man from CASA the signoff in his logbook that says he's been assessed as able to operate PIC from the right hand seat.

Hope your audit goes smoothly!

UTR

[slice]

assessed as able to operate PIC from the right hand seat

I didn't know there was such a thing in a single pilot aircraft. It has been a while but I thought you could legally operate from any control seat with full dual controls? CAR / CAO reference ?

[Sierra-Kilo]

Hmm yes i've been scouring the law books to see if PIC must be sitting in the left seat. I only just have a freshly printed FIR and want to know if im allowed to fly the a/c from the right as PIC on solo flights. I couldnt find anywhere saying you must be approved to fly RHS. Unless it states in the POH cant any nignog PIC from the right, even without being "approved"?

[UnderneathTheRadar]

I didn't know there was such a thing in a single pilot aircraft.

I don't have a reference that I can give. All the 'experienced' instructors and organisations I've flown for have required a signoff to operate PIC from the RHS and for a note/signoff (similar to those used for GPS enroute navigation etc) in the logbook. Basically, it involves demonstrating that you can do all the emergency procedures from the RHS.

UTR

[Sherrin123]

Excuse my ignorance but in some a/c doesn't the tacho only start ticking above certain rpm's?
In this instance, what's the deal with adding 0.1 to flights to encompass taxiing, run ups etc....?

If you do this, does it give CASA grounds to give you a b0ll0cking?

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I don't have a reference that I can give. All the 'experienced' instructors and organisations I've flown for have required a signoff to operate PIC from the RHS and for a note/signoff (similar to those used for GPS enroute navigation etc) in the logbook. Basically, it involves demonstrating that you can do all the emergency procedures from the RHS.

No requirements whatsoever apart from the PIC ensuring that a qualified person is strapped into a command seat and the usual requirement that the PIC ensure that the operation is safe.

I reckon it takes about 30 seconds to get used to the RHS in a light piston single or twin.

No reference = no restrictions.

FRQ CB

[Sierra-Kilo]

Whoops, my log book is almost painted in whiteout :O As for taking 30 secs in light piston to become familiriased with RHS? Hmm maybe you're far more skilled, but for the average pilot such as myself i know it took most of the people i know a few lessons to be able to performa nice RHS landing and be able to hold perfect height in steep turns. I wouldnt want to jump in the RHS solo without having done a few landings from the RHS with someone compotent sitting in the LHS first. Just my opinion though.

[LeadSled]

Excuse my ignorance but--Sherrin 123,

Posters on PPRUNE might forgive your ignorance, but the law will not!!

Read the rules for logging pilot flight time, and log accordingly, otherwise you are committing a strict liability criminal offense. "tacho" time has nothing to do with it, nor the proper recording of flight time for aircraft maintenance. If your instructor/great granny/girlfriend/local rabbitoh says any different to the law, they are wrong.

As I get tired of saying --- being charged with ANY criminal offense related to aviation will see you barred from an increasing number of countries, starting with the US and Canada. A driving criminal offense conviction can bar you from both of the above --- including (especially including) DUI.

If you are a professional pilot, any criminal charge (regardless of whether there was a conviction or just an administrative fine) will have serious employment consequences, being barred from one of more countries really hampers your usefulness.

See the Canadian and US Consular web sites, if you have any doubt. The number of Australian aviation industry persons barred from entry to the US is steadily climbing.

Increasingly, during CASA audits of AOC holders, inspectors are taking away all pilot log books, and matching them meticulously with company/Airservices records.

Tootle pip!!

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Last two companies I worked for don't exist, so how do CASA determine that my logbook entries are legitimate? how can they prove that I flew XYZ on that route, on that day?

[Horatio Leafblower]

Posters on PPRUNE might forgive your ignorance, but the law will not!!

Bull****. The enforcement of Aviation law in this country is a joke. There is a PPL bloke in my neck of the woods doing backyard charters, amongst other things. I have given CASA pax names, dates and destinations but they won't even investigate, let alone prosecute.

Commercial operations on the other hand are a different matter. Your Ops Manual is simply there to ensure you are tied up in paperwork knots so that, come audit time, CASA have you on a plate.

Despite your greatest efforts to meet or exceed compliance requirements, paperwork errors or mix-ups are an instant "gotcha".

:ugh:

amateur, when the boss sends you out to buy the Iced Vovos be a good lad and also buy your CP a jar of Vaseline. :suspect: :ouch:

[relax737]

eg one guy took off flew first few hours then other pilot flew and landed, would one of us be able to log that as Co-Pilot time?

amateur, I think it's only legal to log co-pilot time on a recognized two crew aircraft. That would be the commonsense approach.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Not just themselves,

What about the guy/gal who has legitimately clocked up his/her hours and missed out on a job because some deadsh:mad:t has written themselves into the required position?

F THAT!

[rmcdonal]

No requirements whatsoever apart from the PIC ensuring that a qualified person is strapped into a command seat and the usual requirement that the PIC ensure that the operation is safe.
I reckon it takes about 30 seconds to get used to the RHS in a light piston single or twin.
From memory (has been a while since I had one in front of me) but doesn't the AOM for the C172 have a requirement that the pilot be seated in the LHS? The aircraft is designed to be flown from the left.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

No requirements whatsoever apart from the PIC ensuring that a qualified person is strapped into a command seat and the usual requirement that the PIC ensure that the operation is safe.
I reckon it takes about 30 seconds to get used to the RHS in a light piston single or twin. From memory (has been a while since I had one in front of me) but doesn't the AOM for the C172 have a requirement that the pilot be seated in the LHS? The aircraft is designed to be flown from the left.

I wouldn't think so. Consider the C172 on a TIF. The pilot is in the RHS, the first time student is in the LHS.

Ref CARs 176, 224 (Operator must designate 1 PIC), 243 and 225.

FRQ CB

[LeadSled]

Horatio Whistleblower,

Actually, I agree with most of your post, but the fact remains, if CASA does proceed in the case of falsified logbooks (which does happen, it's a gimme for CASA/DPP) it's far more than a minor embarrassment for the poor sod concerned.

The law simply does not recognize rules of thumb, add 0.1 to the tacho etc.

Tootle pip!!

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

CAR 2 describes: flight time means:
(a) in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft — the total time
from the moment at which the aircraft first moves under
its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the
moment at which it comes to rest after landing;If I use the flight timer on my ADF (which simply starts counting the moment I turn on the Avionics Master and the ADF unless I reset it) and I begin movement at the same time then am I justified logging the time showing on the timer as I apply the parking brake for shutdown?

What if, in the interest of maximising the numbers in my logbook I endevour to:

Not do run-ups in the same place as engine start (think ALAs)
when possible avoid stopping as long as possible (such as when clear of the runway and at intersections) after landing.Am I stretching the truth in an illegal manner? I think not but unfortunately it seems that the burden of proof would be on me rather than on the regulator should they ever query my hours (which I do not expect given my attention to detail and earnest attempts at accuracy).

Using the flight timer and the above methods can lead to some considerable differences between MR time and one's logbook, especially when conducting circuits in an aircraft with an "APPROVED METHOD" flight switch which runs by gear down time (thereby legally yielding a lower maintenance time than time actually spent aloft but not much of an issue as the aeroplane is rarely used in repetitive circuits).

This is provided mostly as food for thought but I'd also like to hear if anyone disagrees... basically, am I being dodgy :E?

FRQ CB

PS Do astro/cosmonaut Commanders log 2,190 hours for a single flight at the end of a three month mission:8?

[Mainframe]

Outside of the flying school environment, VDO, Hobbs or tacho time is seldom used.

(VDO or Hobbs time often run while ever the master switch is on and oil pressure is present, thus maximum dollars for the school.)

Instead, most times are written down as "Off Blocks - On Blocks" or "Engine start - Engine stop" for flight time, and "wheels off - wheels on" for M/R time.

Airlines and GA charter usually document these times in a flight log or "Deck Log".

Where a suitable documentation method is not in use, e.g. helicopter mustering, a flight hour recorder fulfills the means to record the time.

Most panel mount Garmin GPS have a "Trip Time" page where Ground speed above a user specified value (usually about 50 kts) is recorded as flight time.

I've seen instances of pilots "losing" or having had stolen their log books.

Perhaps so as to create a new one with sufficient multi or whatever hrs was needed for a particular purpose?

Not sure who goes around stealing log books and what their market value is.

CASA audits of AOC holders will cross reference company flight records, maintenance release entries and pilot logbooks.

Heli and Ag work will often involve correlation of fuel purchased vs hours claimed to have been flown, this caught out at least one operator I know of.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I've seen instances of pilots "losing" or having had stolen their log books.

Perhaps so as to create a new one with sufficient multi or whatever hrs was needed for a particular purpose?

Not sure who goes around stealing log books and what their market value is.Although I use DFT and therefore have a digital version ready for printing I also take a photo of my logbook when I finish a page. Sometimes I pool all the photos together but mostly I just let them sit there in a folder on the computer (later a disc) between my everyday photos. If I ever lose my logbook (and if I lose a logbook it will be legit) I should hope that I'd be able to reconstruct it from these. Actually, technically I could probably print them out, bind them and call them my logbook. No need for sticky labels if I pay $25 for a licence reprint.

Heli and Ag work will often involve correlation of fuel purchased vs hours claimed to have been flown, this caught out at least one operator I know of.If CASA is going to those lengths you know you're screwed anyway, even if you've done nothing wrong.:uhoh:

FRQ CB

[Aerlik]

I know of a couple of pilots currently operating for big companies out of Perth and one out of Sydney who would be sweating if ever their log books were checked!!!

[A37575]

who would be sweating if ever their log books were checked!!!

Some years ago a pilot was nabbed by CASA for forging log book hours. Seems he claimed lots of hours on a Chieftain with a company that never had Chieftains. Strike One.

Strike two. Examination of the destinations and subsequent flight times logged for each sector he claimed to have flown, revealed he must have averaged 300 knots every sector in the Chieftain.

Strike Three. He claimed 500 hours on a light twin as check and training captain yet was unable to start the engines of the claimed type without the use of a written check-list.

[Biggles78]

Also, is it legal to have whiteout on our logbooks?

No. I single strikeout line through the incorrect entry is required.

I came to OZ in the mid 80s, from a country that will remain nameless so GG won't hang **** on me. :hmm: I strolled into the Dept of Constant Name change with my logbook and my NZ, err mystery country's CPL and started the validation process. Was told that I need 200 hours ATOs (plus Law pass, medical etc) to get an OZ CPL. Totaled up my ATO hours and was about 20 short. Was real unhappy when I was handed a Student Licence.

Those 20 hours resulted in circumstances that had a major detrimental impact on my life and has lost me over 22 years of an aviation career because instead of logging the extra hours in ZK BIC, I took the SPL, got a PPL, sat all the OZ CPL exams and then buggered my back in a factory while saving for the MECIR that was next after the CPL flight test.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be honest so I really hope that airbus captain mentioned months ago (he doesn't deserve a capital C in his title) and all the others who have gotten flying jobs with bogus hours get caught and have their lives turned upside down.

On the upside, I hope to have my medical back in the next few months and then at the ripe young age of 54 it is out and try and find a job. I still have 15 to 20 years plus flying time left. :ok: Really not looking forward to driving up round FNQ and WA.....I HATE driving, :mad:k it! :ugh:

[Captain Nomad]

Biggles, I for one would like to encourage you not to regret what you have done. You have done the correct and honest thing and you can be proud of that and still sleep well at night regardless of whether or not CASA is on the prowl. I hope you get where you want to go. Your honesty should be rewarded in this day and age where honesty and integrity is harder and harder to find. Goodluck! :ok:

[Xcel]

I remember a bloke I worked with once brought his log book in for scrutiny by caa in png. The cp looked through and started yelling - why the freak have you logged a 7th day flying? And WTF you've done 1100 hrs for the year.

Poor fella couldn't respond.

Not only was he abused for going over hours - but was then asked to forge the book by deleting hours for the upcoming caa audit - end conclusion was the cp misplacing one logbook from caa.

2 other interesting guys at the same place. 1 was a bloke so in love with writing in logbooks he just bought 2 logbooks and filled them both out (legally) just so he could add it up twice.

The last bloke there reckoned he had 1000hrs flying - right on mins for the job. But when asked he flat out said he bs'd the hours. Kicked out of that particular job he scammed another joint only to run off the end of the runway. Guess bs doesn't buy experience. Dunno where he is now- hopefully not flying...

[Orwasi]

Long time lurker / reader, first time poster, and a non-pilot to boot, so this is probably a fool idiot question... flame suit on...

If I were to move my aircraft from parking to refuelling, refuel the aircraft, then proceed to engine test, taxi, and takeoff, can I legally claim the entire time as logbook hours under the "chocks off, chocks on" requirement?

[Stretch06]

Orwasi,

Yes, as you had intended to take off.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Not if you shutdown to refuel - the clock would start again.

Of course if you started up, INTENDED to taxi for departure and then, as you passed the fuel bowser decided you needed some fuel for mum & kids so stopped to get some, then you could legally log that.

The law is an ass....

[mustman]

Everyone has different rules and methods of working out your time. For those perfectionists carrying a stopwatch around and exact timiming will work.

Personally I just add 0.1 for each landing and 0.1 for morning run ups, onto the MR time for the day. Seems to work well and averages out, as some taxi times are quick and others are longer. This may not work if you fly at a major airport with large delays on taxi.

Put it this way, you know yourself when you are cheating the system! If you can live with that then good for you :mad:!

[Tmbstory]

Your log book(s) are a record of your flying career, if you do forge them, then every time you look in the mirror, you will know that your word, cannot be trusted.

Tmb

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I came to OZ in the mid 80s, from a country that will remain nameless so GG won't hang **** on me. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif I strolled into the Dept of Constant Name change with my logbook and my NZ, err mystery country's CPL and started the validation process. Was told that I need 200 hours ATOs (plus Law pass, medical etc) to get an OZ CPL. Totaled up my ATO hours and was about 20 short. Was real unhappy when I was handed a Student Licence.

I had about 1000 (genuine!) hours when I went the other way. Rocked up to CAA (?) in Wellington to find out what I needed to do for a Kiwi CPL.

The infamous Harold Bennett added up my log book and pointed out the fact that I was 5 hrs out.

Dr :8

[Biggles78]

Doc, you is lucky you never got stuck with Neville Kennard. A real nice guy (damn, forgot there isn't a sarcasm font :E ). Hope the 5 hours was in your favor. :ok:

[A37575]

I don't know about now but in the RAAF our log books were checked by the flight commander every month and signed as a true record. A junior officer was first given the task of comparing the log book hours with the squadron flight records then the log book was signed by the flight commander. No way could hours be faked. If mistakes discovered in the log book you were severely bollocked. Bit different in GA where anything goes and personal integrity goes out the window.

Many years ago saw a former Ansett first officers log book where he claimed 2500 hours of instrument flying in 727's in a total of 5000 hours. Cheating? Sure; but it got him a job in Dragonair where he eventually became a very rich captain. Crime sometimes does pay

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Have a good read of the other current thread on this subject --- "Inaccurate Log Book Entries"

The law on this is relatively simple, and has not changed in years, ignore it at your peril.
Remember, it is a bit like speeding, it doesn't matter how many people do it, that doesn't make an unlawful entry lawful.

Tootle pip!!