Transgendered cabin crew?

[akerosid]

A friend of mine, who has transitioned many years ago (and is very presentable) was looking at the possibility of becoming a flight attendant.

Although she knows that EU law and precedent would be on her side, she wanted to get some idea of how airlines - and indeed, other cabin crew - would look on an employee/colleague who was transgendered?

[Hotel Mode]

There is a similar girl in BA. BA dont have any problem and I think colleagues are sympathetic.

[i_am_waiting]

I remember flying with said crew member before the transistion and as I remember BA was very supportive with said crew member, and may I say she looks rather stunning in her bikini and can give a few female crew members a run for their money.

[I love twins]

There is a girl in easyJet who has done this. It hasn't been an issue for employer or colleagues.

[A and C]

In this day and age is this likely to be an issue?............ I think not !

[Storminnorm]

Britannia had a FO a few years ago that decided that HE was SHE.
"She" went in to have a chat to the Chief Pilot, and said "In future
I'd like to be known as Christine." The Chief Flugger is supposed
to have replied "In future I think you'll be known as unemployed."
He was last heard of at Orion.(?).
Wouldn't get away with it now I think.

[pc6]

Up front, I dunno, in the back she'd probably have no problems. We are all family, people let go of their hangups after a few trips of varied crews. As long as she can perform the duties required, who cares! :ok:

[GalleyHag]

In oz I know of an F/O that became known as Miss F/O after extended leave. Its funny I know more pilots that transition than cabin crew. I suppose no one gives a dam if you are cabin crew we are very accepting of everyone, however pilots on the other hand may take a very different view therefore good on the boys/girl up the front that have the guts to move on and up.

I dont know if I could do it as a pilot (as im not) but if I had to I think cabin crew would be more acceptning maybe!!! who knows maybe pilots dont give a rats

[TopBunk]

I believe I know the person concerned in BA. I am sure that everyone wishes her well and will not be judgemental and realise the incredible stresses and courage they will faced in life to get where they ar enow.

I do believe though, that in the UK you cannot change your birth sex on legal documents, ie Martha will always be an Arthur on passport. This again must be quite stressful in this line of work.

[Rainboe]

There's a lot of nonsense spouted about this. We are genetically programmed- our chromosomes (XXY and that stuff) tell us whether we are male of female, despite what we may 'feel' we should really be. If someone has male chromosomes and feels they should be a girly and wear bikinis and make-up and frocks, that's their business. If they cannot conform to society and present themselves as what they really are, then they will be regarded very much as 'odd' and treated like a pantomime dame. That is how it is. If they are biologically a 'he' and want to be called a 'she' and dress up as one, then that is not really enough to be called 'female' in official documentation, and this is reflected in the official UK system.

Whilst we may try and convince ourselves everyone accepts this, I can confirm it is not so. I have flown as passenger with one such person mentioned above. My opinion is that most people around me were uncomfortable with it and reacted with derision. I think there is little biological basis for it- it's more a psycological need to dress up. Nature has decided which you will be- you cannot just override that.

There is a similar girl in BA. BA dont have any problem and I think colleagues are sympathetic. I think it is more afraid to say what they really think.

[betpump5]

So Rainboe what's your stance on the subject? Were you just giving us a few cents worth on your opinion that a tranny shouldn't be a hostie, or were you actually saying that he/she will find it very tough to get a FA job in the first place?

If you watch Channel 4 documentaries, then the trannies you see look like something out of a 70's horror movie so maybe that is influencing your views.

However if you are around SE Asia, namely Manila and Bangkok, I think you would have a different opinion :ok:

I did learn my lesson though- always look for the adams apple :ugh:
:}

[Rainboe]

My own opinion is just one particular voice and fairly irrelevant. But I have to say I have seen one of the transvestites mentioned above and my impression was it was more like seeing a lorry driver dressed up in girly clothing and talking with an artificial 'girly' voice that fooled nobody. My grown up children were also flying, and their reaction mirrored the general reaction, which, without doubt, was uncomfortable and derisory.

You do not just swap genders by deciding you are now called 'Christine' instead of Chris, and wearing girly clothes and make-up. All I want to see is what your chromosomes say. It is a society thing where there are 'men' and 'women' who generally conform to clothes wearing practice. If you are not willing to conform, why should a company start calling you 'she' when you are not, and confront its customers with you? Until you accept you are what you were born as, perhaps you should be grounded until you are stable again? If you are not allowed to wear overt religious symbols, why should you be allowed to go against society practice? I do know that the company that employs the above individual is doing itself no favours with its customers.

Well, you did ask.

[flapsforty]

The OP's question was:
how airlines - and indeed, other cabin crew - would look on an employee/colleague who was transgendered?

As you have pointed out yourself Rainboe, your personal opinion on transgender-ism is enitirely irrelevant here.

There's a lot of nonsense spouted about this.
Indeed, and on this thread, most of it by you. ;)

When reading your posts on matters pertaining to flying an airliner, on-board CRM or matters technical, one knows that what one reads will be grammatically correct, factual, pertinent and devoid of supurfluous verbiage.
Great respect always for your posts on piloting matters.
This is not a piloting matter.


PS: For those who wish to know a bit more about the issue: Answers to Your Questions About Transgender Individuals and Gender Identity (http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html)

[cyclops16]

With reference to Transgender documentation. I believe it is now legal and has been for a couple of years for that person once full transistion has taken place to get their Birth Certificate replaced with their new name on it and all the relevant authorities are legally obliged to accept this, so any Transgendered person may use their ' new' Birth Certificate to reapply for a new Passport,etc. The only things that never change are their National Insurance number and Medical Card( NHS) number. In effect the person they were before will no longer legally exist. I have this information from my sister who works with a Transgender person and my sister helped her out with all the new paperwork including Driving Licence,etc.so they were all in her workmates new name and gender.
I believe this change in legislation was brought in at the same time as Civil Partnerships for those in same gender relationships to give them a legal status much like a wedding.

[Mac the Knife]

Much as I respect Rainboe's views on the art and science of flying aircraft he is at best misinformed here.

Gender dysphoria is one of the most tragic and difficult to treat of all conditions. It is is no more a mental illness than homosexuality andd no more "curable". Essentially, the physical (somatic) and chromosomal gender is at odds with the mental gender.

Formal physical surgical gender reassignment to the appropriate mental gender is possible to varying degrees (not all patients want this) but somatotype is one of the limiting factors. It is impossible to make a believable woman out of a rugby fullback type and I have my doubts as to whether one should try. Nevertheless, their anguish may be relieved by a discreet orchidectomy and possibly a penectomy and wearing gender neutral clothes. With a more favourable feminine somatotype a very attractive and fully sexually functional woman may be achievable. The chromosomal gender remains, of course, unaltered.

Somatotypic factors also complicate female to male reassignment and the genital surgery is technically very challenging, particularly if penetrative sexual function is desired (many are content with the ability to urinate standing). Nevertheless it is possible.

These are tormented people, trapped in a physical body that they cannot identify with and as Rainboe demonstrates, profoundly misunderstood. Their ambiguity and sufferings make most of them difficult patients emotionally and the reconstructive procedures are not trivial. Selection is all. Nevertheless, they can be some of the most rewarding to treat and it is a joy not given to many to see them finally even if imperfectly restored to the harmony that they deserve.

:ok:

Mac

[flapsforty]

Thank you very much for counterbalancing previously posted opinions with scientific facts and the voice of experience Mac the Knife.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote
Britannia had a FO a few years ago that decided that HE was SHE.
"She" went in to have a chat to the Chief Pilot, and said "In future
I'd like to be known as Christine." The Chief Flugger is supposed
to have replied "In future I think you'll be known as unemployed."
He was last heard of at Orion.(?).
Wouldn't get away with it now I think.

Reply
Yeah remember it well, She went for a job at EZY but was unsuccesful, EZY were 'Keane' on the subject!!

She however had the competence, Hours & experience for the job.

A difficult situation.

[visibility3miles]

I recall a story about a flight attendant giving the Board of Directors of an airline a standard flight safety review, which included the chairs in the Board Room having actual life vests strapped underneath. Moments after the briefing was finished, the lights switched off, plunging the room into complete dark, and a fire alarm was set off to raise the stress level.

Then the BOD was told, NOW PUT ON YOUR LIFE VESTS and EVACUATE in an orderly fashion.

The BOD realized it's harder than it seems.

Another comment I recall was that if your plane splashed upside down in water at night, do you really care what type of mascara the stewardess uses?

I know there are more issues than this, but I hope it's relevant.

Not a Cabin Crew,
Your pax,
vis3

[Rainboe]

And........? Was there a point I missed to that?

Well it's interesting what Wiki coughs up (when you hit it on the back enough). I felt I should educate myself.
Gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe persons who experience significant gender dysphoria (discontent with the biological sex they were born with). It is a psychiatric classification and describes the attributes related to transsexuality, transgender identity, and transvestism. It is the diagnostic classification most commonly applied to transsexuals.Other transgender people object to the classification of GID as a mental disorder on the grounds that there may be a physical cause, as suggested by recent studies about the brains of transsexual people. Many of them[who?] also point out that the treatment for this disorder consists primarily of physical modifications to bring the body into harmony with one's perception of mental (psychological, emotional) gender identity, rather than vice versa.

Have we a massive con here? In our haste to bend over backwards these days to let what was previously regarded as socially unacceptable behaviour by people now to be 'perfectly OK', maybe we are bending over backwards too far? Does it not boil down to 'what's your chromosomes, XX or XY?'. We're not listening to people who decide they really want to be another sex and then surgically altering them....because they want to change? There's a lot of horrors going on these days, one of them that same-sex couples can adopt children- something I am adamantly against, along with the Catholic Church and a darn sight more people than are willing to admit. If surgical procedures are being carried out against chromosome evidence, then it is criminal, especially if I am helping pay for it.

I am not convinced. I think it is largely psychological. Essentially, the physical (somatic) and chromosomal gender is at odds with the mental gender. If a man feels he's a woman trapped in a man's body, why change the body? Doesn't the head need repairing? I can't believe what I'm hearing here. I'm a rich person trapped in a normal person's body- can the Health Service make me rich, or perhaps better to get me to understand I can't automatically be what I feel I should be?

Our control of genetics will eventually give us the power of species realignment. So, if a disturbed person decides he's really a parrot trapped in a human body, Mac, are you going to start operating, or treating the disturbed condition? Why are you saying 'yes, we have the technology.....we can make you a woman!' when you should be saying 'look mate, you're a bloke!'? Why?

[Rainboe]

Mac, I'm very disturbed by this: you are giving surgery to otherwise healthy bodies to make them something they are not? Please explain. I know some people don't have normally formed parts, but I know that most of this surgery is on normal bodies to make them something they are not, but what their perverted desire wants them to be? Is that a correct interpretation? We are not talking about simple things like breast augmentation- we are talking about changing nature? How do you justify pandering to someone's psychological whims by carrying out unnecessary radical surgery? It's all very well using fancy medical terms to pretend a condition exists, but it doesn't, does it? If you're so willing to carry out such surgery, why, when I want to be not quite so bald, can I not get society to pay for hair enhancement?

[Mac the Knife]

"So, if a disturbed person decides he's really a parrot trapped in a human body, Mac, are you going to start operating, or treating the disturbed condition? Why are you saying 'yes, we have the technology.....we can make you a woman!' when you should be saying 'look mate, you're a bloke!'? Why?"

I agree that there has been discussion as to whether gender dysphoria is a psychiatric rather than a brain structural anomaly. Just as there has been about homosexuality.

Equally, attempts to alter the perceptions of gender dysphorics (and homosexuals) by means of psychological manipulations (operant conditioning etc., etc.) have been singularly unsuccessful. The threat of punishment, torture, and imprisonment (or worse) is ineffective. Just as have simplistic attempts as reason like saying 'look mate, you're a bloke!'.

"Doesn't the head need repairing?" Perhaps; most gender dysphorics (and many homosexuals) would dearly love to be "normal". But this does not seem possible.

"Our control of genetics will eventually give us the power of species realignment." I doubt it, and besides, that is a long way from isospecies gender problems.

"So, if a disturbed person decides he's really a parrot trapped in a human body, Mac, are you going to start operating, or treating the disturbed condition?" No, and that is a reductio ad absurdum as you know full well.

In the end, we may offer selected patients physical gender reassignment because other treatments (apart from 65gm of lead in the back of the head) don't work.

Mac

[Mac the Knife]

"Mac, I'm very disturbed by this: you are giving surgery to otherwise healthy bodies to make them something they are not? Please explain." Correct, as I have said. And many people find the thought of this distressing or distasteful.

"I know some people don't have normally formed parts, but I know that most of this surgery is on normal bodies to make them something they are not, but what their perverted desire wants them to be? Is that a correct interpretation?" I'm not happy with your attribution of "perverted desire" to these people. For them, the only perversion is that they should have been born with a physical gender not in concordance with their mental gender. A cruel trick that nature has played on them.

"We are not talking about simple things like breast augmentation- we are talking about changing nature?" Breast augmentation is changing nature - its only a matter of degree. So too is taking antihypertensives or insulin. There are always ethical dilemmas, for example the resuscitation of ultra low-weight babies.

"How do you justify pandering to someone's psychological whims by carrying out unnecessary radical surgery?" It isn't a psychological whim (I wouldn't do it if it was) and surgery is only agreed to after extensive psychological assessment, a prolonged period of living as the other sex and often hormone treatment.

"It's all very well using fancy medical terms to pretend a condition exists, but it doesn't, does it?" Unfortunately it does - just ask the unhappy people with it. There is increasing evidence that this is neither a whim nor a perversion nor a psychological disorder but an inborn error of brain anatomy and neurochemistry.

"If you're so willing to carry out such surgery, why, when I want to be not quite so bald, can I not get society to pay for hair enhancement?" A bit less of the "so willing" if you please but if it truly causes you that much distress then perhaps society should.

Mac

[ZFT]

betpump5

I did learn my lesson though- always look for the adams apple

You might need to relearn that lesson as many of them have this removed.

[flyblue]

We have moved this topic, with some of the deleted posts that were off topic here in CC, to Medical&Health, where the discussion can continue under a medical point of view.

[fissm]

As long as he/she is able to operate a door in an evacuation and evacuate approx. 30 people (CASA requirements; 1 F/A to every 30 passengers), there shouldn't be a problem. Safety is always the number 1 priority.

[Mac the Knife]

"Mac's statement in the 2nd para posting 15 beginning 'Essentially.....' REALLY needs some examining."

What I said was; "Essentially, the physical (somatic) and chromosomal gender is at odds with the mental gender." Since this is the fairly undeniable essence of the problem, I am somewhat at a loss to know how this can be examined further, REALLY or otherwise.

"I questioned the ethics of surgeons carrying out transgender operations given it is mostly a psychological condition."

It isn't "given" at all. As I stated, the evidence is that this is no more a psychological condition than homosexuality and it is certainly no more amenable to psychotherapy. Would you suggest that homosexuals should receive treatment in an attempt to convert them to heterosexuality? This has certainly been exhaustively attempted with a conspicuous lack of success (though not without inflicting much suffering).

The ethics of carrying out gender reassignment procedures can indeed be debated, but arguably are no more complex than breast enlargement or the use of analgesics for pain (the ethics of which were intensely debated by some when anaesthetics were introduced).

These sort of discussions are really only useful if the protagonists are willing to entertain viewpoints other than those with which they entered the debate rather than attempt to impose theirs on others. Your viewpoint is neither exceptional or novel and the small arguments that you make I have heard and considered many times, only to reject them on evidentiary grounds. You might care to consider testimony from those intimately concerned with the management of these unfortunate people and, as any reasonable person might do, modify your views in the direction of tolerance at least.


Mac

[akerosid]

Gosh, I've opened a right can of worms here, but thanks to all those who replied - even those whose replies were less than charitable.

The fact of the matter is, quite simply, that my friend exists. She is now a woman; she is a human being - and a very decent human being - who has a right to make her life as successful as she can, just like any human being should be able to do. She accepts, as she has had experience of this, that there will always be regressives and conservatives who question that right and indeed, her right to be a full member of society.

It is good that there is now legal precedent, as well as legislative provisions, which now give her protection, and thankfully, the vast majority of people are accepting and understanding. I hope she will - and will strongly encourage her to - pursue her dreams. She deserves success, as do all who have fought prejudice and discrimination.

[captcat]

There is a transgender lady at my airline. I have always known her as a woman, and had I not known that she was born in the body of a man, I would never have guessed. There is nothing masculine about her, neither in the physical (any more) nor in the psychological (never has been) department. Achieving the physical part was no joke, more of the opposite actually. Being born in the wrong body, the wrong gender must be something close of a nightmare to begin with. I cannot see a reason why someone should go through the pain, the trouble ad the hassle of changing gender if their situation weren't unbearable. And even after the operations and the tons of pills she had to (an still does) swallow, there is always someone who, out of morbid curiosity, ignorance, bigotry or preconception, has to remind her that she had the misfortune of being born in the wrong body. Really, I cannot understand why some people feel entitled to judge the sexuality of others, if those are adults who have every right to decide for themselves.
If some people feel uncomfortable being around transgender persons, it is their problem. Or maybe we should hide from view all the people who make us uncomfortable? Is it not more rational that it is the people who are affected with psychological rigidity and ignorance who seek professional help to stop feeling uncomfortable around homosexuals or transgender persons? Feeling uncomfortable about what adult persons do with their life, without hurting anyone, only because they follow their nature? To be honest, I'm sure I would feel much, much more uncomfortable in the presence of narrow minded people and think about them that they ''should be grounded until they are stable again'' and that ''the company that employs the above narrow minded individual is doing itself no favors with its customers '' :E

[Qansett]

Heard a RUMOR long time ago that thai airways cabin crew has lots of transexual crew. Not sure if it's true or not.

[Ancient Observer]

Rainboe - you are often, if not normally, right in your clearly expressed views.
I have to say that you are just plain wrong in this thread.
I know 2 pilots - one a Training Capt., and the other a moderately senior captain who have made the switch from male to female successfully.

I'm glad it wasn't me..........I would hate to be in their shoes, and I continue to wish them all the best.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't expect others to agree with you - you're just plain wrong.

[Andrea COLLIAUX]

Hello everybody, I discover ur website today :ok:I have been a "steward" at AF for more than 10 years, and then I transitioned in 2001. I should have ben fired. BUT, the French Civil Aviation decided that it was a descrimination. So they gave me back my "CSS" (Certificate of Safety and Security) that you need to be a flight attendant in France and AF could not fire me :ok:Then, after 18 monthes at home, I went back to flights. A real nightmare !
You can go and visit my webstite : Carnet De Bord d'Un Steward Devenu Hôtesse de l'Air (http://andreacolliaux.canalblog.com/)
or check on GOOGLE "Andrea COLLIAUX". I was the first flight attendant to be a TS in France. Imagine :eek: I still do have many problems due to descrimination. It's not easy sometimes. I'm on the European network flights. I was told I'll never be a purser and it was better to be in an aircraft than a prostitute at the Bois de Boulogne...:\ Anyhow, I'm married, and so happy in my life. I'm a fan of Pam Ann and I'm on FaceBook too if you want to see my page. Love, Andréa.:ok:

[Andrea COLLIAUX]

Hello everyone. I'm a TS air-hostess at Air France. I transitionned at the age of 35. I'm now 43. I've been a steward for 10 years and now an air-hostess till 2001. It's not "easy", but I still have my job, travelling all over Europe and I'm quite happy about this.:) Of course, sometimes people (other Flight Attendants) are very mean to me, but I don't care :mad:. You can visit my blog on the address below. I speak french, english, and italian.:ok:So, love me or hate me, I don't care ! Life is great and made me so gorgeous moments to live that I'll never have regrets about my sex-change. Love to all the TS flight attendants of the world, maybe we could create an association !
Love, Andréa.

[Rainboe]

I'll never have regrets about my sex-change
No, I tried to resist as it gets me into so much trouble, but I can't fight it. Can we be clear, you have not 'sex-changed'. Your sex is determined by your chromosomes. You can look like Angelina Jolie, but if your chromosomes are XY or XX, that decides your sex. I'm sorry, but the fact that you may be convinced yourself that 'deep down, you really are a woman, you should have been born a woman', and a Doctor has doctored certain bits to produce a new appearance, it does not mean you have changed gender. You are what your chromosomes say you are.

I have thinning hair. I can't go pretending I have a bonnet like Ozzie Osbourne. I can wear a wig, but it doesn't make me hairy. Likewise you can dress like a woman, you can talk like a woman, you can change your body to be like a woman, you can walk into lady's toilets, but what are you deep inside? What nature specified with your chromosomes. If I was to marry you expecting to be married to a woman, it is likely I would want my money back. You may look, talk, walk and dress like a woman, but willing yourself to change does not redefine yourself as a she, her, female. You are what nature intended nevertheless.

We have to understand the point that our definition of sex (as in gender) goes deeper in nature than simply changing our appearance medically or superficially.

I am sorry, but I see it no more convincing than Priscilla, Queen of the Desert- a hugely enjoyable and entertaining film.

[Jean-Lill]

RAINBOE

I note you state you are very disturbed, I fully agree with you YOU are very disturbed.

If you are a pilot I amazed you managed to pass psychological tests with your warped attitude. I hope I never have the misfortune to fly in the back of an aircraft you are the pilot of because I could not trust your judgements.

[TightSlot]

Jean-Lill - Play the ball, not the player - It's no good just hurling abuse, you have to argue the case to be convincing. Come on, raise your game, you can do it.

[clareprop]

Can I have a go? Oooo thank you..;)

Rainboe, it somehow pains me to agree with you but I have to. From every angle, you are absolutely 100% right in your physiological argument.

Now, do we feel better? Has it given us a warm feeling of satisfaction that maybe we have proved our point?
On the other hand, would it really ruin the rest of our lives if we reached out to a fellow human being and said "Yes, you look like a woman, you act like a woman and you have physically committed yourself to being a woman. On that basis, you deserve our respect and we are happy for your happiness because in this crazy world of violence and greed, someone at peace with themselves is a truly precious gift?"

[non iron]

May l also ?

Ooh ta.

He is right in his argument full stop. Resulting opinions differ which is the point surely?
l would be surprised if Rainbow gets pleasure from his logic.

Off thread, excuse me, the most sorry sight l`ve seen with man/woman interfering with nature was an arab lady c/a pumped full of God knows what for Olympic shot putting competition as a child. Years later she looks like Desperate Dan`s big brother but still, as she should, goes shopping for "frillies".
Make of that what you will.

ttfn.

[L337]

Once you are beyond a certain age this subject becomes, difficult. However being old and grumpy has meant that I have had to deal with it.

My financial advisor. He was a star. He advised my mum and dad, and he provided superb advice. He is now a she. She is still a star. But I do struggle. I use to shake his hand, but I just cannot bring myself to kiss her on both cheeks.

But. I still like her. She is incredibly brave. And more than that, still does a superb job. Who am I to judge her?

God bless Rainboe. Sometimes you have to grit your teeth, and get on with it.

[Rainboe]

If they've got mental tranquility by changing their appearance and settling into a mindset that they are a different sex, then who can think that wrong? I am happy for them if that makes them happy. But it concerns me that though they may now convincingly look like a woman, if they are now referred to as 'she' then this is actually fooling people who don't know- is it morally right to deceive people? It's a human society thing, but we like to know who we are dealing with, with honesty, male or female. Sex appearance change is fine, but not deception, and I don't think it correct to refer to people who have changed their appearance as 'she'. There are many things that can be changed, but it must be accepted that actual he and she are untouchable. Which leads us to should it be acceptable for actual males to use ladies toilets? Maybe it should- I would be very disconcerted standing there happily using a male toilet to have an apparent lady stand next to me, but would ladies be fine with an actual male using their cubicles? And aren't ladies loos overcrowded anyway?

Perhaps what I personally find most disturbing is medical staff carrying out disturbing medical procedures with fancy names to change otherwise healthy for (what I regard as) unethical reasons. It seems to me to have parallels with the awful old procedure of carrying out lobotomies to treat schizophrenia.

I realise my views are not regarded well, so having stated my position, I intend bowing out here. I hope we can all think a little more next time next time we so freely use the expression 'she' when we are actually talking about a male very well disguised.

[betpump5]

Rainboe

we meet again.

2 questions:

1. Have you been to Andrea's website via the link?

2. Would you say no?

I agree with you on one point. Surgery changes nothing. Once a man, always a man.

[KitKat747]

After a man has had a sex change operation he legally becomes a woman and is able to marry as a woman etc. The birth certificate and passport are changed to recognise the new sex or perhaps the sex the person should have been born in the first place.

Mentioning chromosomes is correct but is surely nit picking and rather unkind to state once a man always a man on the strength of chomosomial existence. The presence of a Y chromosome does not define your sex, the introduction of the first sex tests in the Olympics defined a man as having a Y chromosome. It was quickly apparent that there are a number of fully fertile women in the population who possess a Y chromosome. They are rare - but they do exist. This is evidence that Rainboe's assertion that your sex is simply defined by having either XX (woman) or XY is wrong. Perhaps people need to consider the sex of individulas with XXY or even XYY or simply a single X - all of whom exist in our population.

I see no reason why a transgendered person cannot be a flight attendant providing they are capable of doing their job.

Many years ago I flew with a transexual flight attendant who was previously a man, I was unaware she had been a he until another flight attendant mentioned it.

Today's sex changes are much better and it is usually difficult to spot a transexual, we must be tolerant to mistakes that nature makes . I am glad we live in a time when surgeons can rectify these mistakes (neuro-surgeons cannot)

I fail to see why someone connected this issue with same-sex couples adopting children and endorcing their views with reference to a religion? Religion is a private matter and should be kept that way.

[A and C]

As long as someone works to the required standards of the airline, gender & sexual orientation should not be an issue.

The issue that I have on this is the medieval attitude to people who just have "different" personal lives.

[The Heff]

Right or wrong, Rainboe's comments have at the very least made this thread into a truly interesting read, and at the most an educated and thought-provoking debate.

I work in a call-centre in Northern England, and there's a chap there who has just decided he wants to be a chappesse. He's sparked quite a bit of curiousity amongst us all, but not many welcoming reactions (or none that I've heard of anyway).

It'll be interesting to see how it pans out for him, and whether a call-centre will be as supportive as you cabin-crew seem to be.

[Andrea COLLIAUX]

I was supposed to be fired when I had my transition at the age of 35 in Brighton by AF. BUT, the doctor said that as long as I was able to do my job properly, there was no reason to fire me. But believe me, it's a real nightmare to me sometimes to fly with some very racists crews that do not see the difference between being a transgendered person, a transvestite, a gay or a lesbian woman...:confused: I do not have any problems with the passengers, but other crew are sometimes very mean...

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote
Mac, I'm very disturbed by this: you are giving surgery to otherwise healthy bodies to make them something they are not? Please explain. I know some people don't have normally formed parts, but I know that most of this surgery is on normal bodies to make them something they are not, but what their perverted desire wants them to be? Is that a correct interpretation? We are not talking about simple things like breast augmentation- we are talking about changing nature?

Reply
I agree completely, But at the end of the day - That is THEIR choice if they want to go down that road??

It makes no direct difference in their quality of work, But obviously they will have to expect differing attitudes from differing people.

If they cannot take criticsm or rejection then they may have to go back to their own lifeplan board!!

There's no real answer to the problem??

[Jean-Lill]

If people cannot accept transexual or gay people and have to insult them by joking about them I seriously wonder if those people are really happy with their own sexuality or even gender. If one is happy with their own sexuality why do they have to make fun of others who have not chosen to be in a pridicament they are in? :D

[8846]

Few are actually READING what Rainboe is writing. He doesn't need my support but..

The science is the science and what anyone might think about it changes nothing. Your opinions are just that..opinions and often ill founded ones at that.

We've all got to try to learn about and people and understand their problems, whatever they are, if we want to be decent human beings - unfortunately not that common a trait in this business..

So...support people who are facing problems and maybe try to understand a little of what they are going through. That's all that can be asked..

[paco]

"Britannia had a FO a few years ago that decided that HE was SHE.
"She" went in to have a chat to the Chief Pilot, and said "In future
I'd like to be known as Christine." The Chief Flugger is supposed
to have replied "In future I think you'll be known as unemployed."
He was last heard of at Orion.(?)."

Actually she wanted to be known as Kristina (second name began with S). There was a spread in the Daily mail I seem to remember. Anyhow, she got fired with a handsome payout from Britannia and went to work for a small airline in Wales, which immediately put her on a sub-contract to Britannia, which caused great amusement in the crew-room.

phil

[Michael Birbeck]

What the hell has gender (or transgender) got to do with anybody's fitness to fly or manage or fly in an aircraft.

Just read this thread and am obviously missing the point!

Since when did sex or gender matter?

[awesomepilot]

I think it is pretty cool. As long as the transgendered person is courteous and clean and professional as a flight attendant it should be ok.

Hopefully he or she will be able to talk to passengers at some stage and describe his or her reasons for becoming a flight attendant and travelling th eworld - this will help promote awareness of diversity.

[Jean-Lill]

It matters not what the chromosome status of a transexual is, it will not be changed from XY (male) to XX (female) but the matter does not stop there. It is what sex the person feels is their's and which sex they feel comfortable in.

On the subject of chromosomes please be aware some people are XXY which is very unusual but they are not bi-sexed in any way, it is not these people who usually wish to transgender and one really should ask what sex these people are if some of the earlier postings on this thread are relevant. These XXY people of course know which sex they are and perfectly happy with their sex and are usually totally unaware they are niether XX or XY. Some pilots and flight attendants (+ anyone else) could well be XXY and will not know that. I do not know of anyone who has had reason to have a chromosome test.

It appears some people prefer to think that transgendered men/women are not really the new sex doctors have surgically made them. Legally they are of the new chosen sex and should be treated that way but yes a transgendered male to female will still have XY chomosome status but why should that bother anyone when some other people have XXY chromosomes?

Transgendered people should be supported and accepted in the occupations they had before, if they could do the job then they probably do it a lot better now because they are more in tune with themselves than they were before.

[Bergerie1]

Let's forget the chromsome issues and focus instead on the person. Back in the 1970s I can remember flying with a steward who used to come to room parties dressed as a girl. He was a good steward and a nice person. I can remember him one evening explaining very lucidly the emotional difficulties of feeling female but trapped in a male body.

Several years later I climbed onto an aircraft leaving Heathrow and this attractive girl came up to me and said; "Hello, xxxx, do you remember me?" Of course, I didn't and then she told me who she had been.

I am glad to say that the company in its wisdom had decided to re-employ her after the operation. She was now a good stewardess, a good crew member and still a very nice person.

I have often thought of the enlightened manager who agreed to all this. I, also, hope that wherever she/he is she is happy and contented with her life.

Can I urge some who have written to PPRUNE to think a little more compassionately about the individual involved.

[Fliegenmong]

This is a guy my dd grew up with...for a while Peter Drouyn...now Westerly Windina

Surfer dude finds peace as a woman - Local News - Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2009/08/01/103851_gold-coast-news.html)

.....:eek::ok:

[Andrea COLLIAUX]

Yes, I agree with you, for most of my colleagues, I am the "steward who became an air-hostess". Surgery did it all, it's true, but inside of me I've always been a girl. Sex-change is not an illness, it's just a revange on a life you never wanted. I've had my transition 10 year ago now in Brighton and I was the first flight attendant in France to do so. I opened many opportunities to other persons -not only flight attendants- who felts the same about sex-change.:ok:I got married one year ago with a pilot ; I'll never change my mind about what I've done ! My husband is divorced, absolutly "straight" and never saw me before my transition. Of course he knows about my transition : and so what ? That does not make him a gay or a pervert ! He knows, I know, and it's our private life. Now I'm a flight attendant among others, and since I've my husband'name, life is quite easier. And you know what ? the most important thing in life is to do what YOU WANT,and no what other people would like you to do. Think about it...:D

[demomonkey]

People have done this successfully on both sides of the door;

Sarah's Story (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Sarah.html)

All I can say to those who are dubious about this subject (and judging by this thread they appear to be in the minority) is that if you had known someone with GID you would probably not be so questioning.

[etrang]

Rainbowe, you do know that there are more possible chromosomal combinations than just XX and XY, don't you? Or perhaps you don't.

[Tiramisu]

Akerosid,
I have flown with someone who's had a sex change in BA. This individual is one of the best crew members I have flown with professionally and one of the nicest person I have had the pleasure to work with. This is what matters most to me and many of us in BA.

Andrea,
All the best to you and your husband.:)

[cavortingcheetah]

Since the procedure became a right, more than 1,000 people have had the surgery, hormone treatment and pyschotherapy required for a sex change operation. Something in the order of 80% of the operations have been male to female. The cost to the NHS over the last decade is something in the order of £10 million for the 1,000 or so transitions performed. In an appeal court verdict in 1999 , health authorities were required to assess the need for treatment for transexuals as though they were suffering from a disease rather than in need of cosmetic surgery. The health authority in the appeal claimed that it was entitled to take into account its own “scarce resources” and to refuse funding for the operations if it meant funding for serious illnesses, such as heart disease, cancer, kidney cases and Aids would suffer.
I don't suffer from gender identity dysphoria and I would want an extraordinary good reason before I had my testicles removed and my penis cut off even under a full anaesthetic. So while I, from an admittedly medically biased position, think that there are far greater priorities for a financially pressed NHS; I am very prepared to believe that there is much more than a cosmetic fetish at stake here for those who agonise over their particular problem.
As for flight crew, what possible difference could a little biological tweak make so long as the individual was competent and happy?

[Mr Optimistic]

How is it nobody has reference the actual UK law ?

Gender recognition - Ministry of Justice (http://www.justice.gov.uk/about/gender-recognition.htm)

Better to get the job first, then change. Note no surgery is necessary to swap.

As long as it is recognised as basically a lifestyle choice, I have no problem with it.

[west lakes]

This subject brings up some interesting situations. Though not involved with your industry (see my profile) we actually have 2 transgender employees where I work. To make it more complicated they were father(S) and son(L), which does raise some interesting questions.

Both have the same job titles as myself and both are still carrying out the same duties as before, which in the case of S means out of hours standby (our standby is from normal finishing time at 17:00 until 08:30 or all day Sat & Sun)

What was interesting was the practicalities when S began the process, the problem in the large office she was based in at the time was from female staff who, initially, were uncomfortable with "a bloke wearing a dress" using the female toilets.
I would add that our employer put no difficulties in their way.
The male staff were I would guess bemused.

Some years down the line they are both accepted for who they are and the jobs they do.

[PhilNix]

Hi – I’m new here. Be gentle.

I have been lurking and reading PPRuNe for a while, off and on.
I’m not a pilot, or CC, or any of the other many airline industry roles that keep me, and the plane I happen to sitting in, flying.

I’m just a regular SLF parcel – regular as in ordinary and regular as in frequent. So I read PPRuNe now and then, just keeping in touch, like. And it can be interesting to see what is going on in the heads of people on the other side of my airline ticket.

I thought I had to register and throw in my two’pennorth on this one.
There are other threads on here right now, relating to the BA dispute, Spanish ATCO, and other matters with lots of healthy debate - and sometimes a little mud-slinging maybe.

I have read those with interest, but not felt sufficiently stirred to add comment on those – in each thread, my own views have already been put by some posters (on both sides of any particular thread) and anyway as mostly the arguments are going round in circles now (‘scuse pun !) I haven’t felt the need to post. And, as SLF, I don’t have any particular technical or company insight on which to argue the minutiae.

But on this one ?
I have flown many miles, on many airlines (including Thai Air, by the way), and it has never occurred to me to wonder or be bothered about the sexuality, or previous gender, of the CC that I have met – or pilots that I haven’t. OK, sometimes I might have (rightly or wrongly !) unconsciously made an assumption about a male CC who appeared a bit camp – and I guess I might do the same about a CC in a skirt who seemed a bit – how shall we say – "masculine ?" And I guess there have been many more occasions when somebody has seemed so completely natural in their own skin or uniform – be that male or female – that nothing at all has registered, consciously or unconsciously.

But – do you know what ? If there are any transgender, either before or after, CC (or Pilots, or whatever) up there flying, then not only would I be comfortable in my ignorance of their sexuality or previous gender on their airplane – if did know about it I would be happy to be on their airplane !

[OK – I know we can be pedantic about what actually constitutes sex, sexuality and gender, but you know what I mean, so please let’s not argue on that one].

It seems to me, that given the amount of hassle and cr*p that these people would have had to go through all their lives – and I guess will still get from some "colleagues" after any change – well… then those people must be real tough cookies. And thus likely to be able to cope with more or less anything and look after me no matter what happens up there. And, furthermore, they are up there in the air because they love their job, and wanted to continue in the job, just so much that they were prepared to go through all that hassle and any bitchiness and sniping just in order to carry on flying and look after people like me.

That’s good enough for me – I’ll take that anyday.
Happy to fly with you Ma’am, [or Sir].

So, thinking about it now – as this thread had forced me to do – if my next flight attendant wears a skirt, is 6’4", 200lbs, with a seven o’clock shadow, and a dark brown voice to go with a namebadge saying "Lola" – I will recline my seat, sip my drink and be happy.

I know that I’m being looked after by someone who really wants to be there, doing that job, and has probably fought like hell to get there and stay there.
　
Phil


　

[Sonorguy]

"Mac's statement in the 2nd para posting 15 beginning 'Essentially.....' REALLY needs some examining."

What I said was; "Essentially, the physical (somatic) and chromosomal gender is at odds with the mental gender." Since this is the fairly undeniable essence of the problem, I am somewhat at a loss to know how this can be examined further, REALLY or otherwise.

"I questioned the ethics of surgeons carrying out transgender operations given it is mostly a psychological condition."

It isn't "given" at all. As I stated, the evidence is that this is no more a psychological condition than homosexuality and it is certainly no more amenable to psychotherapy. Would you suggest that homosexuals should receive treatment in an attempt to convert them to heterosexuality? This has certainly been exhaustively attempted with a conspicuous lack of success (though not without inflicting much suffering).

The ethics of carrying out gender reassignment procedures can indeed be debated, but arguably are no more complex than breast enlargement or the use of analgesics for pain (the ethics of which were intensely debated by some when anaesthetics were introduced).

These sort of discussions are really only useful if the protagonists are willing to entertain viewpoints other than those with which they entered the debate rather than attempt to impose theirs on others. Your viewpoint is neither exceptional or novel and the small arguments that you make I have heard and considered many times, only to reject them on evidentiary grounds. You might care to consider testimony from those intimately concerned with the management of these unfortunate people and, as any reasonable person might do, modify your views in the direction of tolerance at least.


Mac

To give Mac some back up with this, I'm a psych nurse, both civvy and military and I also sat on a board of a Primary Care Trust that (amongst other things) looked at requests for gender re-assignment. It is NOT considered a mental illness or psychological problem.

The only normal input from a psychologist at any stage during this process is early on by a specialist psychologist or psychiatrist to check that the person is not suffering from a mental illness that would make them lack capacity to make this decision. The vast majority have great insight into their problems and have capacity.

It's also unlawful to reveal that someone is transgendered without their consent unless it is medically necessary to do so.

[Andrea COLLIAUX]

Yes, I was born a man. No, I'm no more a man. Come and check all the articles about me on Google. Never judge what you do not know.

[vctenderness]

Its actually not all that new in airline terms. There was a very famous steward in BOAC in the early 1970's who dressed as a woman whilst off duty downroute.

He decided he wished to become female and even in those less enlightened times he was given every assistance and support by BOAC (may have even become BA by then).

She then transferred to the Terminals and became one of the staff looking after children and taking them to their boarding gates. She was much liked by all and I think never suffered from any prejudice from colleagues or customers.

These days it should be no barrier to employment.

[Right Engine]

Forgive the banality of my next comment, but having worked with BA's transgendered (post operation), breast augmented individual, I can say one thing - She is stunningly beautiful ( regardless of whether she harbours a Y chromosome or not)

I say that as a bona fide heterosexual father, Rainboe. Get up to speed old boy! Regard rather than judge! It's so much more pleasing to exist on that level....

[ozangel]

I too know of an aussie pilot who decided being male wasn't his thing. She ended up being victimised by a number of other pilots - ultimately resulting in her 'demotion' (for a short while) until the 'powers that be' backed off and realised the trouble they were in.

In reality - and I think it's the same almost anywhere in the UK/USA/AUS...

Making this personal choice should NOT impede your success when applying for the job.

Unfortunately, the personal connection you make with any recruiter (who, granted, is human too) - is more often than not, distorted by the applicants race, physical appearance, sexual orientation, and GENDER.

While I admit, recruiters are human too (so i'm told anyway) - they are likely to assess you not just by what the airline dictates, but their own personal experiences and education. (It's not right - but there it is!).

By the law, you should not be treated differently - that said, it's not hard for the recruiter to lie, and say that you didn't get the job because of your 'attitude' or the 'way you answered a question'...

That's the reality - unfortunately - and until things improve (and you can force the improvement if you've got the cash and the time to challenge) - thats the way it is.

For what it's worth, a bunch of girls I work with decided they should challenge on the grounds of ageism - and they won! It's a shame they had to - but even they admit justice is not free.

[Bergerie1]

vctenderness and Right Engine

I think we know the same person (see my post last year). I am so glad to know she is doing well.

[D O Guerrero]

I'm just flabbergasted to read Rainboe's posts on here. Please remember - most of us on the flightdeck are not that bigoted.
How someone like that gets a job in a multi-crew environment is just beyond me...

[d105]

Couldn't agree more.

As commanders we lead a team of individuals who've proven they are qualified for the job. It is our duty to safeguard the integrity of the team and look out for every single crew member. Regardless of sex, race, colour, sexual preferences or religious views.

Rainboe is entitled to his opinion. And so are people who have problems with people who change their gender. You are free to argue your point of view on a forum. But once on duty you must put your personal views aside.

People who are unable to do that should never be put in a commanding position. For the ability to unify, motivate, encourage are traits that are vital to have in order to perform as a leader.