RAF Manston – History of No. 1 AEF (1967 to 1995) [Archive]

CoffmanStarter

1st Jun 2009, 18:35

Hi everyone…

Some of you may know that the AEF (Air Experience Flight) organisation turns 51 this coming September. Over the years this organisation, which was originally equipped with Chipmunk aircraft, has been an invaluable “recruiter” for not only the RAF but the Fleet Air Arm along with the Army Air Corps across all ranks and trades. Many UK aircrew (Mil or Civil), past and present, will have probably gained their first thrill for flying in the back of a Chipmunk !

Having had the privilege of serving with No. 1 AEF for nine years back in the 70’s and early 80’s, as a small tribute, I have authored a brief history on Wikipedia that I thought some of you might find of interest… or even jog a few early memories !

1 Air Experience Flight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Air_Experience_Flight)

It would be really great to hear from past “customers”… even better if you could share some photos and stories.

I’m still looking to add to the article… where any help would be greatly appreciated. I’m particularly keen to find out more on the pre Manston era, but appreciate that might be a bit of a long shot now. Equally, I’d appreciate any detail from 1981 to the date the Flight closed at Manston in 1995.

There may have been other aircraft serials on the fleet at times… where it would be good to add these to the fleet list (even find out if they are still flying)… so time to look at the 414 or your 3822 (if you still have it !)

Maybe some contribution from the current 1 AEF Team down at St Athan who carry on the good work today ?

Kind regards

Coff.

fire3

2nd Jun 2009, 09:19

Just had a quick look in my 3822, between 93 & 95 i flew in

WG430(6)
WK554(4)
WP855(5)
WP860(6)

What a cracking time that was, wish i could turn back the clock.

Matt Skrossa

2nd Jun 2009, 13:12

Manston AEF, happy memories of flogging down the A2 in a coach from Gravesend (402 Sqn ATC) then spending the day trying to steal bits of aircraft from the fire pits despite being told not to go over there! The Red Arrows (Gnats) also used to use Manston in the winter and our NCO's crewroom was adorned with a nice Red Arrows pitot head cover pinched by some naughty cadet. Also did my first solo there with 617 VGS but that as they say is another story.

Matt Skrossa

2nd Jun 2009, 13:18

Coffman check your PM

CoffmanStarter

4th Jun 2009, 19:14

Hi fire3...

Thanks for your reply... much appreciated. A quick search suggests WG430 is in the USA, while WK554 is now in South Africa, with WP855 "downunder" in Australia and WP860 up at Perth Scotland (all still flying it would seem)... I'll update the Wiki page shortly. It looks like 430's Tail ID No: was a 3 ?

Thanks again...

Coff.

CoffmanStarter

4th Jun 2009, 19:17

Hi Matt...

Thanks for your PM's. All noted. Much appreciated.

Just had a fantastic hook-up with the son of one of the Founder Pilots... just about to drop him a line... more history to add and maybe some early pictures !

Kind regards...

Coff.

fire3

5th Jun 2009, 11:28

i will try to track down some pictures of my time with 1 AEF,.

Did you know the old 1 AEF sign that used to sit outside the AEF hut is now in the Manston history museum?

CoffmanStarter

6th Jun 2009, 06:21

Hi fire3...

Thanks I'm aware of where the old sign now rests. Am I right in assuming you were a Staff Cadet with Boss Paddy & Pete ? If so please PM...

Coff.

tharper

11th Jun 2009, 13:50

Hi. Thank you for the 1 AEF history. I was lucky enough to fly for 1 AEF whilst I was a staff officer in MOD in 1990 & 91. Pete Stonham was the Boss and was much respected by all present. I really enjoyed my tailwheel checkout with Pete, never having been qualified on the Chippie before (I learnt on the JP in 1972/3), although I do remember being in the "boot" as a CCF cadet. My Sundays during that period consisted of a usually pleasant drive or motorcycle ride across Kent followed by 5 Chippie trips to Dover Castle and a nice ride home again. It really eased the pain of life in the MOD.

I recall that Pete was also the driving force behind the little museum at Manston over that period.

For your record, I am Ex-Harriers.

Tony Harper

CoffmanStarter

12th Jun 2009, 18:50

Hi Tony...

Thank you so much for taking the trouble to reply... glad you like the story so far ! Having a bit of an issue uploading some of the fleet pictures (copyright stuff)... but I'll get it cracked somehow. I'm also going to try and get the current 1 AEF chaps to join in.

I only met Pete the once (I was from Jonnie Johnston, John Shelton and Paddy Brown days)... really nice chap Pete... as they all were.

I'll drop you a PM...

Kind regards...

Coff.

Beancountercymru

23rd Nov 2009, 21:31

I have in my F3822

WK577 in 1965
WP837 in 1966 and 1969
WP642 and WD370 in 1970
WZ845 in 1971

Captain Windsock

21st Dec 2009, 20:07

Happy memories. Spent 3 years from 1965 - 68 as staff cadet with 1AEF. Many happy times and over 50 hrs on chippies. Set me up for life.
Anyone remember when all the WWII fighters arrived for filming "Battle of Britain"?

Captain Windsock

21st Dec 2009, 20:16

Found my 3882 and includes airframes:
WP846
WP837
WP577
WP851
WP344
WP627

Did forced landing in WP627 in Mar 68

CoffmanStarter

30th Dec 2009, 16:52

Hi BeanC...

Thanks for your information... I suspect 642 was WK642 ?

Kind regards...

Coff.

CoffmanStarter

30th Dec 2009, 16:57

Hi Captain W...

Thanks for your information. I suspect 627 was WB627, 577 was WK577 and 344 was WD344 ?

Kind regards...

Coff.

rotorfossil

31st Dec 2009, 11:45

I was flying Whirlwinds at Manston '65-68 and flew the Chipmunks part time. I have WG 896, WG 837, WG 536, WP 627, WP 855, WD 344, WP 827, WP 846 & WP 837.
I was on shift when all the Heinkel's and Me 109's appeared. A bit startling as no one had bothered to tell us that they were coming. Suddenly the sound of all those Merlins - marvellous.

CoffmanStarter

6th Jan 2010, 20:35

Hi Rotorfossil...

Thanks for your information... and I’m really pleased that you’ve made contact. Whilst another story... perhaps you can share the history behind the exquisitely hand drawn “crew room artwork” we inherited from 22 Squadron ! You’ll know the one I’m referring to... the almost full size reclining sun worshiper with the little yellow Whirlwind in the top left corner !

I’ve also made contact with the son of one of the founder pilots (Alpha 33 - sadly no longer with us) where we are jointly doing a bit of research on the 1 AEF fleet history.

Please check your PM...

Kind regards...

Coff.

wulf190a

7th Jan 2010, 16:51

Manston has fantastic memories for me, in the late 60's early 70's my first flight was with the ATC, 312 (Canterbury) squadron. My first flight was with a pilot I only knew as "Ding", and It changed my life, especially after the aero's! and I made Flying my career. Does anybody remember him? and what was his real name? Would love the opertunity to shake his hand.

wulf190a

CoffmanStarter

7th Jan 2010, 20:31

Hi Wulf...

Thanks so much for your post. That will be Donald (Don) Ding you remember... Call Sign "Alpha 36". I'm afraid I lost contact with him and the other guys in the early 80's. Don was a charming Irish gentlemen who certainly enjoyed his aerobatics. He was also one of the pilots along with Les Zapp and John Powell who flew as the "Zap Pow Ding" wave !

Best regards...

Coff.

Captain Windsock

11th Jan 2010, 21:33

Coff, your suspicions are correct. It was in fact WB627, WK577 and WD344.
Have to admit my F3882 is a bit faded and grubby!

Dan Winterland

12th Jan 2010, 03:05

Didn't fly with the AEF, but flew Chippies in and out of Manston a few times. Once in about 1988, I had to collect a Chippy from Manston for the summer camp at Coltishall. I got a lift in a Jaguar and got straight into the Chippy after signing the 700 still wearing leg restraints, g suit and oxygen mask. Got this piss taken a bit when I (eventually) got back to Colt.

Another time, I was ferrying a Chippy to Belgium, refuelling at Manton. The ceiling was 200' and right on the limits for a PAR. (I wasn't an AEF pilot, I had an IR on type.) I was haded over to a VHF frequency, but requested a UHF because the aircraft I was in had a full size UHF box and a tiny glider VHF in an almost inaccessable position under the instrument panel. They refused and kept on swapping me to other VHF frequencies and I was almost putting myself into UPs trying to tune the VHF. After I landed, I phoned ATC and asked what the problem with the UHF was. They replied ''But you're a Chipmunk, you don't have a UHF!''.

Captain Windsock

12th Jan 2010, 07:55

Here's a couple of pics. Hope they download ok otherwise back to the drawing board!

This picture must have been taken about 1967 +or- a year. Any one remember who they are? I think in there somewhere are Boss Smith, Brian Lockwood, Arthur ?, Iain ? and others.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy162/Captainwindsock/Manston1AEF.jpg

And the Messerschmitts. You can just see the Control Tower in the background. Was white in those days.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy162/Captainwindsock/ManstonBattle.jpg

CoffmanStarter

12th Jan 2010, 18:57

Hi Captain W...

Thanks for your PM and the great pictures !

Left to Right... I recognise Left 1 Arthur Standen, Left 4 Bill Downing and Left 7 Darby Allen (clutching the broom !). Does anyone recognise the other faces ?

Best regards...

Coff.

rotorfossil

13th Jan 2010, 14:38

Hi Coffman Starter. The reclining girl picture on the wall was done by a wife of one of the pilots. When the ops/crewroom was given a makeover, that wall looked a bit blank so one day the picture appeared. Fortunately the Station Commander didn't raise any objection so it stayed.

CoffmanStarter

16th Jan 2010, 15:25

Fellow PPRuNe Members...

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far along with the PM's and other information provided.

I would really like to try and see if any PPRuNe Members might have some historic pictures relating to 1 AEF, Pilots, Ground Staff and in particular the Chipmunks that could be shared. Captain W has already posted a B&W from the 60's showing some of the regular weekend aircrew... does anyone have anything earlier that could be scanned and posted ? I would also be pleased to see later images... especially anything taken on the final day of flight operations at RAF Manston.

To help get the ball rolling here is a picture of WB627 in the Grey & Dayglow livery of the late 60's. Permission to upload this image has been kindly granted by the son of the pilot (Alpha 33) upfront.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/WB627.jpg

Looking forward to your posts...

Best regards...

Coff.

Captain Windsock

16th Jan 2010, 18:37

Another similar photo, circa 1967

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy162/Captainwindsock/Chipmunk3.jpg

CoffmanStarter

17th Jan 2010, 10:47

Hi Dan W...

Thanks for your post... it was always amusing to be asked on PAR Finals to "check gear down - three greens"... prompting the inevitable reply "gear down and welded" !

Kind regards...

Coff.

CoffmanStarter

17th Jan 2010, 11:39

Hi Captain W...

What a start ! WP837 (C1-0720) is one of the Founder Aircraft of the 1 AEF Fleet. According to some very helpful research shared by one of the authors of "DHC-1 Chipmunk - The Poor Man's Spitfire", WP837 officially joined a dedicated fleet established for 1 AEF 24/09/1959. Prior to that WP837 was part of a pooled fleet operation out of RAF Biggin Hill with London UAS. WP837 remained with 1 AEF until 29/09/1969 then joining Cambridge UAS.

WP837 can be seen here (3rd back from the front) in an article published by Flight dated 28/11/1958 covering the formation of 1 AEF at RAF Biggin Hill.

1958 | 1- - 0834 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1958/1958-1-%20-%200834.html?search=1%20AEF%20Chipmunks)

It would also seem that WP837 is still airworthy and flying in Australia under the Civil Registration of VH-WPO

WP837 Chipmunk VH-WPO Point Cook 09-04-06 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/saints09/4119669820/sizes/l/)

Best...

Coff.

CoffmanStarter

17th Jan 2010, 12:19

Hi all...

I thought this picture might stir a few memories for quite a few !

Letting down over Pegwell Bay, following an aerobatics session, for a rejoin over Richborough Power Station Cooling Towers.

Aerobatics at RAF Manston were either performed "overhead above three" (overhead the airfield to the north of the main runway) or at "Pegwell above three".

Again permission to upload this image has been kindly granted by the son of Alpha 33. At a guess this picture is mid to late 70's as Hoverlloyd packed up operations at Pegwell Bay at the turn of the 80's.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/pegwell01.jpg

Kind regards...

Coff.

chippy63

13th Apr 2010, 23:24

Don't forget RAF Woodvale. Had my first flight there from the CCF, wonderful experience, led to Flying Schol and UAS. Bliss.

Wander00

16th Apr 2010, 08:44

My memories of Manston are slightly different - first tourist Canberra pilot (only one in Signals Command/90 Signals Group), White Card, and usually launched on Friday afternoon for 3 hour navex. Weather clamps- only diversion Manston (again) - yet another weekend in a flying suit (or even an old style roll-waist immersion suit) in Manston OM, with just me and a navigator and the fruit machine! Hey, ho! Weather always seemed to clear on Monday morning!

CoffmanStarter

17th Apr 2010, 10:59

Hi Chipp63 ...

Thanks for your reply. I would be very interested to know more about any connection 1 AEF had with RAF Woodvale as all the records I've seen so far indicate that the Flight started life at RAF Biggin Hill and remained "southern" based. Could you be referring to another AEF Flight ?

Best ...

Coff.

CoffmanStarter

17th Apr 2010, 11:06

Hi Wander00 ...

Ha ha ... the well known "clamp factor" ... the remainder of the UK "clamped" Manston open ... Manston "clamped" the remainder of the UK open !

So you were the guys that emptied the fruit machine after we had loaded it !

Great to hear from you ...

Best ...

Coff.

chippy63

18th Apr 2010, 21:06

Coffman,
You're right, I think it was 10 AEF.

Wander00

19th Apr 2010, 09:29

Coffman,

the Manston Factor usually worked, except for one Thursday (why do I remember it was Thursday): we had been flying a six-ship of T17s from Ballykelly, then moved to St Mawgan, flying an exercise in SWAPPs on the way. Should have realised something was "up" when the AEO heard on SSB a Shackleton being diverted to S France or Gib or somewhere distant. By the time we were overhead St Margan everywhere in UK was going out with fog, and I was the only White Card (add 300ft to decision height) in our bunch and I was top of the stack. The fog was rapidly getting worse and I was on top of the stack, last down the descent - options few- text book solution, if not in sight of lights at decision height, overshoot, fly over the airfield and bang the nav and aeo out, then take the aircraft out to sea and do ditto. Concluded that with a radar altimeter we could take it to 150 feet (my decision height was 863' as I recall - the 3' being all important) so we set off down the glide slope spot on the numbers all the way down and at 150' as I started to level for the overshoot the AEO called "lights straight ahead", and we landed. They had to send a "follow me" truck to get us to the pan, and the boss (one of the flight commanders) was giving me a funny look as we opened the door. Later in a quiet corner he gave me the official bollocking- "next time overshoot and throw the aeroplane away" , and then took me to the bar and bought my beer for the rest of the night.

I also recall a diversion to Manston where there were so many airliners there we were limited to loading "get you home + dibversion" fuel, and the started parking aircrafy down one side of the very wide runway.

Seems a lifetime ago now.

rogersyms

29th Apr 2010, 04:01

Coff

As hovercraft captain and flight manager of Hoverlloyd during the '70s I am very interested in the photograph.

With some ex-colleagues I am in the process of writing the history of Hoverlloyd from 1966 to its demise in 1981.

We would very much like permission to use the photo for our publication.

I think I can also identify the year it was taken. A new jacking area off to the left of the pad is being constructed in readiness for the delivery of our fourth SRN-4. That would put it around late summer 1976.

Regards Roger

CoffmanStarter

29th Apr 2010, 19:27

Hi Roger ...

Really pleased to hear from you ! If you drop me a private eMail (PM) via this forum with your contact details, I'll gladly put you in touch with the owner of the photograph who actually took the picture !

Thanks also for putting a date to the picture ... I thought the mid 70's was about right !

I can't count the number of times I watched you guys "appear" out of the spray and settle on the pad, whilst hanging upside down on my straps doing aeros over the Bay !

Best regards ...

Coff.

rogersyms

29th Apr 2010, 22:30

Coff

Sorry to be a dumb new boy but how do I make this private?

Roger

staff cadet

10th Feb 2013, 11:46

02-17-2010 11;40;21AM
I'm a bit late joining this thread but I thought that the photo above may be of interest. It was taken by a local newspaper snapper who accompanied an ATC squadron from the Bexley area on their AEF trip, It was taken in 1967 with stalwart WP837 as it's centrepiece. Yours truly is doing the staff cadet job, the pilot is a guy called Tim Fear who was filling time between Hunter postings - I believe he'd just returned from Aden. I was the only staff cadet at the time and I seem to recall that I may have been the first, or certainly among the first, of these lucky lads who took some of the load from the ASF guys.

Our CO at the time was Ron Chapman who had recently replaced John Weeks. The Deputy Flight Commander was Arthur Standen. He hailed from Welling so we used to travel down together most weekends. The other pilots were usually from Les Zapp, Brian Lockwood, Derby Allen, Bill Downing, Ken Fluck, John Miles and Fred Insole from among others. Happy days!

CoffmanStarter

13th Feb 2013, 08:35

Check your PM's Staff Cadet :ok:

terrahead

15th Aug 2013, 16:57

Coff

I strongly suspect that might be me in the back seat of WB627 (picture above). If it was taken on 2 June 1973 then that connects me with the ac, according to my ATC Record of Service. Do you have any specific info from son of the pilot please?

Ed

CoffmanStarter

15th Aug 2013, 19:24

Hi Ed ...

Thanks for making contact old chap ... I doubt Bill's Log Book will reflect individual cadet names ... that was what the old Cadet Manifest log was for which you may remember was completed by your Squadron Staff of the time.

I knew Bill very well. He flew Wimpey's and Dak's and took part in the Berlin Airlift. The pic here is before he acquired a Mk2 Bonedome ... on the back of his Mk2 he had a couple of big "eyes" ... which he acquired from his civilian job as a Sales Exec for Black & Decker :)

Very glad to see you went all the way with your career :D

Best ...

Coff.

PS ... More here on 1 AEF :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/412255-raf-chipmunks.html

JK67saucer67

14th Nov 2013, 15:39

Hello All,
And apologies if this is deemed to be hijacking a thread!

An appeal for information re: RAF Manston SAR:

Am attempting to locate any surviving crew members of XP 347, who retrieved a Flying Saucer shaped object on Mon 4th Sept 1967.
Crew was:
Pilot Flt Lt Robson
Navigator Flt Lt Goodman
Master Signalsman Murphy
Unixdentified Fire Brigade expert from Manston Fire training School.

In addition, does anywhere know the whereabouts of Station Commander at that time, Wg Cdr D B Wills

Lastly, if any readers hknow of personnel contemporary to that time who may be able to add general insight, I would be very much obliged.

Thanks for your kind attention, best regards, John

Agatha

1st Jan 2014, 17:23

Thanks to CoffmanStarter and all the other contributors to this thread - I have been researching No1 AEF for a short Facebook focus on the Flight on the rafa YOUTH page https://www.facebook.com/rafaYOUTH on 11 Jan 14 - and this provided a very rich seam of interesting and unusual information and photographs......which I hope will bring a new perspective to the young people privileged to fly with the Flight today!

Thanks again :ok:

BEagle

1st Jan 2014, 21:09

Am attempting to locate any surviving crew members of XP 347, who retrieved a Flying Saucer shaped object on Mon 4th Sept 1967.

Ah yes, the brilliant September 1967 RAE Farnborough students' prank! I remember seeing it on TV. 6 small 'saucers' were placed along the 51.5N line of latitude and caused mayhem to the establishment when they were discovered.

Full story here: UFO fever gripped Great Britain in the late Sixties - and a handful of students perptrated a very big hoax | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363151/UFO-fever-gripped-Great-Britain-late-Sixties--handful-students-perptrated-big-hoax.html)

But it raised £2000 for charity - and made officialdom look ridiculous!

rotorfossil

5th Jan 2014, 16:35

The artwork was done by a wife of one one of the pilots, Nick Hibberd I think. Somewhere about 1967 probably when we had a revamp of the Ops room/crew room.

rotorfossil

7th Jan 2014, 17:20

JK67saucer67
Hi. Checking my logbook, I see that I flew a sortie to the isle of Sheppey on 4th September 1967 with Flt Lt. Colin Goodman and Master Signaller Murphy to the UFO incident. I don't know if this in addition to the sortie with Flt.Lt Robson. I clearly remember examining the "saucer" and when someone shifted it, it immediately stated buzzing. Everyone promptly dived for cover. I seem to remember that when we got it back to Manston and opened it up, it was full of looked like a soggy flour substance with a buzzer activated by a tilt switch. Somewhere in the depths of boxes, I probably have a slide taken of it. If this of interest, PM me with your address and I will send it on if I can find it.
I remember Wg. Cdr "Bernie" Wills and that he had lost his flying category because of a medical problem, hence his tour at Manston.
Rotofossil.

BEagle

7th Jan 2014, 18:56

From the Daily Mail:

The idea was to try to make the ‘spacecraft’ enigmatic and sinister rather than cartoonish UFOs.

The students constructed six oval flattened objects, 54 in long, 30 in wide and 20 in deep, moulded from fibreglass and laced with artist’s graphite to give them an other-worldly sheen. They looked more organic than mechanical, and indeed the team always referred to them as ‘eggs’ rather than flying saucers.

They decided that they would have to have something ‘alien’ inside them before they were sealed up. So they concocted disgusting jelly-like goo made from bread dough boiled at a high temperature. It looked like mashed human brain and stank to high heaven. Anyone who tried to break open one of the UFOs was going to be in for a nasty — albeit harmless — surprise.

Also inside each saucer was placed a small electronic loudspeaker, programmed to emit an unearthly wailing noise if the UFO was disturbed.

:ok:

JK67saucer67

22nd Jan 2014, 19:18

Rotorfossil,

Hurrah! Thrilled to hear from you and have PM'd.
HUGE thanks to the website!

Best,
JK

fire3

21st Oct 2014, 10:39

Hi All.
Can anyone name some of the people in this photo of the 1 AEF Hunting aviation team taken at RAF Manston.

I know front left is Brian Stewart.

If anyone has any more pictures of 1AEF At Manston i would love to see them.

Kind Regards
Fire3

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10177878_755243887881530_4543541105497128507_n.jpg?oh=4b3e5b 707561259a405187b79df550fb&oe=54F42ECA

CoffmanStarter

21st Oct 2014, 16:40

Hi Fire3 ...

Sorry I can't help you ... after my time :(

We had Regular RAF Ground Crew in the 70's ... The last SNCO was Sgt Ron Essam.

selfie

11th Nov 2014, 20:53

Left to right standing on wing. Bob Still , sitting on fuselage, Colin can't remember surname.

Sitting on port wing closest to canopy. Ray Davis / Davies next to him Mark Fagg.

Standing in White. Brian Stewart standing to right Nigel Legg

Sitting on wheel. Derek Williams.

Don't recall when this was taken but there is one person missing who was there at the end of the AEF: Simon Fisher. Just can't recall when he joined.

Best guess at a date would be 1992 - 1996.

victor tango

16th Nov 2014, 16:06

coffmanstarter
Is your thread for military only?
I was wondering if you may have any info/pics of the British Eagle Britannia wheels up landing at Manston in 1968 I think.
If you dont think my post is relevant to your thread I will remove it.
rgds

gfunc

20th Nov 2014, 09:54

Hopefully this works. Here's some photos I took as a 15 year old cadet at 1AEF

WK554
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129612018@N08/15832904185/in/set-72157647053917213/

WP855
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129612018@N08/15831033691/in/set-72157647053917213/

WG458
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129612018@N08/15212940684/in/set-72157647053917213/

CoffmanStarter

20th Nov 2014, 11:07

Selfie, Victor T, Gfunc ...

Just dropped in to check on this Thread (I mainly inhabit the Mil Thread).

Thank you all for adding pics and further information. Gfunc your pics are most certainly taken toward the end of 1 AEF's time at Manston ... OC then was S/L Pete Stonham (that may be him in the last pic :8).

Victor T ...

I may be able to help as I've just made contact with the Station Photographer from the 60's,70's and early 80's (a Civilian) ... I'll see what he might have ... he's currently digging out some early Chipmunk pics for me (not digital). Certainly leave your post on the Thread ... it's all part of 1 AEF/RAF Manston's rich History :ok:

Kind regards all ...

Coff.

PS. Also see this Thread ...

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/412255-raf-chipmunks.html

victor tango

20th Nov 2014, 11:59

Thanks again coff
Our archivist was given some a/c parts from the crash by I think the fire dept.
I remember in 68 that the foamed runway wheels up landing was on the TV news and in the national press. Id love to be able to get copies of all that!

CoffmanStarter

2nd Feb 2015, 14:30

Hi to everyone who might still be following this Thread :)

A little while back I offered to help our good friend Staff Cadet post an image. That image is now to hand ... so in just trying to help I've re-posted his original contribution along with the pic ... I'm sure SC will pop by at some point to add a bit more colour :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/19671AEFRAFManston_zps338c94ef.jpg

I'm a bit late joining this thread but I thought that the photo above may be of interest. It was taken by a local newspaper snapper who accompanied an ATC squadron from the Bexley area on their AEF trip, It was taken in 1967 with stalwart WP837 as it's centrepiece. Yours truly is doing the staff cadet job, the pilot is a guy called Tim Fear who was filling time between Hunter postings - I believe he'd just returned from Aden. I was the only staff cadet at the time and I seem to recall that I may have been the first, or certainly among the first, of these lucky lads who took some of the load from the ASF guys.

Our CO at the time was Ron Chapman who had recently replaced John Weeks. The Deputy Flight Commander was Arthur Standen. He hailed from Welling so we used to travel down together most weekends. The other pilots were usually from Les Zapp, Brian Lockwood, Derby Allen, Bill Downing, Ken Fluck, John Miles and Fred Insole from among others. Happy days!

A fantastic and very important historic picture you have there Staff Cadet. I remember those old "Wire Frame Headsets" and dangly "Mic" ... By the early 70's we had the blue "Cloth Electric Hats" ... which then became green ... then by the late 70's cadets were issued with Mk1 Bonedomes minus the Visor.

Best regards ...

Coff.

CoffmanStarter

23rd Mar 2015, 15:31

Hi all ...

I've managed to make contact with the former Station Photographer at RAF Manston ... who has kindly shared some quite historic pictures relating to 1 AEF :ok:

The following two pictures were taken mid/late 60's in front of the Black Hanger on the old Western Taxiway. They are particularly interesting as they show the Blue Straps of the old 4 Point Seat Harness ... which was subsequently superseded by the 5 Point Seat Harness (the 5th Strap and Harness Release Box came up between your legs). Sorry to say, as yet, I'm unable to ID those individuals in the picture or the aircraft.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/img978%20Medium%20V2_zpsoswdfekx.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/img977%20Medium%20V2_zps4e2sx3xw.jpg

Again mid/late 60's probably taken on one of the Pans just off the Western Taxiway. I believe the pilot is probably Dan Ludlow (but I need further verification).

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/img976%20Medium%20V2_zpsuiuqwxtx.jpg

Forward in time now to the late 70's WK642 on a Western Taxiway Pan.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/img312%20Medium%20V2_zpsb4nbaw2e.jpg

WB569 which was affectionally known as the "Bucket of Bolts" ... so Christened by the Deputy Flight Commander Arthur Standen.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/img311%20Medium%20V2_zpsgjkiuxiy.jpg

Difficult to see all the Serials ... but almost certainly WZ845, WB569, WK642 and WK518.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/img310%20Medium%20V2_zpsm6u4xbkz.jpg

I'm hopeful that I may yet receive pictures from Biggin Hill, White Waltham and West Malling days idc.

Best ...

Coff.

Image Credit : Mr D Keep (All Images)

Haraka

23rd Mar 2015, 16:32

Coff,

Whilst on ULAS ( 69-72) I spent a lot of time at the RAF Institute of Aviation Medicine.
It was there that I saw a prototype 5-point Chipmunk harness. It was explained to me that the problem with the 4-point was of the occupant "submarining" down out of the harness into the cockpit innards in the event of a violent deceleration.
My comment of "so bloody logical and so simple to implement" was met with a polite smile.
It certainly wasn't implemented on any Chipmunk that I flew during my three years on them as a student.
P.S.When flying solo, the four straps tightened up in the rear cockpit showed the potential problem.

Innominate

23rd Mar 2015, 16:39

The 5-point harnesses had been introduced by the time of my last Chippy AEF in 1974.

Dora-9

23rd Mar 2015, 18:21

The 5-point harnesses had been introduced by the time of my last Chippy AEF in 1974. When WK507 arrived here in 1975 (ex Birmingham UAS) it had the four-point harness. It still has this and I don't like it!

When the Royal Aero Club of WA's VH-RWI crashed in 1997, both occupants were badly injured - they had both "submarined" out from their 4-point harness, exacerbated by them sitting on too soft seat cushions that totally compressed with the high vertical loadings involved (no parachutes obviously).

CoffmanStarter

23rd Mar 2015, 18:39

Hello Haraka ...

Totally agree old chap ... particularly acute on AEF's with younger/smaller physique Air Cadets.

Interestingly (and quite incorrectly IMHO) the 5th Strap was sometimes called the 'Negative G Strap' by some ... which, as you will know, was a moot point as you weren't supposed to pull -G !

Best ...

Coff.

CoffmanStarter

23rd Mar 2015, 18:47

Hello Dora-9 ...

Yes ... I can see that without a seat type parachute the problem is equally acute. I'm surprised it's not a mandatory Flight Safety MOD requirement on Civilian Chipmunks. If it were me I'd have the MOD done.

Best ...

Coff.

PS. The original Chipmunk 4 Point Seat Harness ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/IMG_1094_zpsxidei2vn.jpg

Sorry ... but I can't find a pic of the 5 Point Seat Harness at the moment.

Dora-9

24th Mar 2015, 07:07

Coff:

I believe there's a minimum "compressibility factor" for the seat cushion, in this country at least. The gent who restored my Chipmunk was adamant about getting this right (and quite scathing of the "soft" seat cushions that had been in VH-RWI), so I ended up with quite firm seats. Not that I'm complaining, I believe the RWI front-seater is permanently wheelchair bound now.

D9

P6 Driver

24th Mar 2015, 12:25

I've no Chipmunk experience, but seeing that harness photo puts me right back in a Sioux helicopter!

gopher01

30th Mar 2015, 05:40

Just dropping on to the thread, I used to go to Manston with 358 Squadron from Welling between 1962 and 1963 and have the following aircraft in my 3822;

WK 520 date 27/07/62

WP 970 date 20/08 62

WP 837 date 01/12/63

WP 837 date 06/06/64

Main memories are aeros over Pegwell Bay, how bloody difficult it was to walk out to the aircraft with the chute hanging down behind your backside and being asked if you wanted to go out and do a pass over Radio Caroline out in the Thames Estuary.
The name Ken Fluck rings a bell, a name like that certainly would do especially if it is the guy I remember, as he was a Met policeman and an instructor at our Squadron, he was quite tall, all policemen were in those days and he used to ride one of the police Velocette Noddy bikes. quite a sight complete with pointy helmet as nobody had got to the point where crash helmets were considered a requirement. I left the ATC to join up in Jan 65 and come across Coff a fair bit on the Albert thread in Military forum.
Jumping forward rather in 1987 I was posted to Abingdon after three years on the Tonka toy at Laarbruch on 16 and was pleased to see at least one of the Chipmunks I had flown in at Manston was still trundling round the circuit, unfortunately at this distance in time I can't remember which.

CoffmanStarter

30th Mar 2015, 07:03

Hi Gopher01 ...

Yes ... That's most certainly Ken Fluck the Policeman ... a former Wimpy pilot :ok:

Thanks for the Serials.

BEagle

30th Mar 2015, 12:38

Haraka wrote: P.S. When flying solo, the four straps tightened up in the rear cockpit showed the potential problem.

During my time as a ULAS student in the early 1970s, solo spinning was in and out of the syllabus with alternate phases of the moon, or so it seemed. But one day I was authorised for the exercise, cranked up and chugged off down the free lane, 'Twyford outbound' to Mapledurham, then into the southerly climb up to whatever height we had to use after I'd passed the A4 west of Reading.

Finally up to altitude, quick HASELLs, then throttle to idle, trim out, wait for the correct IAS, then control column fully back and full left rudder....

As the aircraft departed into the spin, a loud banging and crashing noise came from behind me.... So I promptly recovered and decided that was quite enough spinning for the day! A few aeros, then a PFL before descending, 'Woodley inbound' at the gasometers and back to WW for a circuit or two.

The cause of the noise? The knots in the end of the rear seat straps banging against the rear seat structure. Without the usual levels of vibration, chugging and clattering of the Gyspy Major and with little airflow noise, the racket had been pretty alarming - much to the amusement of my QFI when I told him!

ferrybloke

5th Dec 2018, 15:24

I stumbled upon this thread...

I currently own WG430. She is currently safe and sound in a hangar at Doylestown Airport in Pennsylvania. I flew her a few times last week. She still has the original markings of No. 1 AEF - the previous owner wanted to maintain authenticity and so do I. In the Spring, I intend to fly her to our home in California. She will then be based at KTRM (Thermal) just outside Palm Springs. I have all of the original logbooks and maintenance records saved in a box in our garage.

I tried to upload a couple of photos from last week, but the upload did not work. I’ll try and solve that issue and upload some photos later.

Cheers, Steve Randall
Instagram @redwoodbusdriver

ferrybloke

5th Dec 2018, 22:09

I'm not allowed to post photos until I have 10 posts.... this is number 9. Standby!

ferrybloke

5th Dec 2018, 22:11

... and here is post number 10!!!

ferrybloke

5th Dec 2018, 22:12

As promised.. here are some photos of my Chipmunk WG430 last week (1st Dec 2018) in Pennsylvania. It's an ex No.1 AEF Manston aircraft. The previous owners kept it as original as possible and I intend to do the same. She still flies beautifully..

Cheers,

Steve

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/804x558/screen_shot_2018_12_05_at_15_00_03_967bc490a0a0e5a7abcf62a27 e27d008bba6f222.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/753x566/screen_shot_2018_12_05_at_14_57_29_6915b3c87355f45e35a9e5f68 7411aa0ab741390.png
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/801x593/screen_shot_2018_12_05_at_14_59_40_07e5da7edb05184f6d5f8c347 7e9617b76df4cbe.png
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/422x564/screen_shot_2018_12_05_at_14_57_17_ab7ce543fd57fde1197584dab 31c20633e41e31c.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/754x565/screen_shot_2018_12_05_at_14_57_00_6163fa96f1612407db6ae146f 466584246226962.png

Red Four

6th Dec 2018, 11:51

Good to see her alive and well....and obviously appreciated.

Tashengurt

7th Dec 2018, 18:57

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x2000/15442127834185978276645707354142_deca93b7e6167f1b769c57af1cc fc8a56a3a3398.jpg
WG430. The first aircraft I ever flew in, 18/02/84.
Twenty minutes of joy!

Fareastdriver

7th Dec 2018, 20:55

Way back in 1964 the Valiant main spars were going haywire. There was little or no flying so 38 Gp's Ansons were made available for the captains to keep their hands in. Chipmunks were provided for the co-pilots.

At first we, at Honington, shared the Marham Chipmunks but then we were the issued with our own. We were allocated WP 830 which was last employed in Cyprus in the reconnaissance role. To this end it was finished in a full green/brown camouflage finish and this was how we flew it. The 90 Sqn pennant was painted on to the fin and when we got tired of non stop aerobatics we went into the Air Experience programe for our groundcrew.

It was a revelation for them. In the Vforce the only groundcrew that could fly were the crew chiefs of a particular aircraft. I, nobody else on the squadron bothered, gave them an opportunity to get airborne.

I was changing over No 1 to N2 with the groundcrew. The coffee was brought to me whilst they changed over the bloke in the back. A check on the inter com and we taxxied out and got airborne.#

I had a box of birds with me! Every thing I did was fantastic! I tutored him on how the controls worked and let him fly it a little bit. Then we came to aerobatics which I knew they all wanted to do. I did the lot: I started with a barrel roll and finished with a stall turn. At the end I Asked him whether He would like to see a spin.

But of course he said so I went into it, about 60 knots then full aft stick and left rudder and in the aircraft went. I held it for about three turns and then thumped on opposite rudder, lined up the control column with the DI and pushed it forward.

Nothing happened.

I held for another three turns and then I started thinking. Inverted spin? I centralised everything and then applied full pro spin elevator and rudder to ensure it was an upright spin. With that I went to normal spin recovery and after another three or four turns in came out.

I levelled at 800ft..

When we taxied in for refuel I sat in the cockpit whilst my airman in the back disembarked. It took two on either side to lift him out and when he got on the wing the was another two to guide him down to the ground. He must have weighed at least 20 stone and we must have been way outside the aft CofG range of the aircraft.

Background Noise

7th Dec 2018, 21:50

I got a few hours in WG430 flying cadets at RAF Valley in the summer of 1990 - good fun.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x182/wg430_849d6c66297ee428c4079e1af344b7545090fbf1.jpeg

sycamore

7th Dec 2018, 22:05

Tashengurt.. you might want to correct your log entries for 30/31/7/85 ..Hercules Cmk1 XV191, and CMk3 XV199...

Tashengurt

7th Dec 2018, 23:03

I think I'll leave my 30 something year old 3822 as is thanks Sycamore. I think 199 was still a Cmk1 back then though. They were going through the stretching programme at Marshalls at the time. We got to visit.

GotTheTshirt

9th Dec 2018, 08:36

Coffman,
We maintained the university air squadron aircraft at Burnaston Derby.
They would fly the Havards and Chipmunks in during Autumn and took them back after overhaul in the Spring, moving the delivery crews back and forward in Ansons !
The Chipmunks all had the starters with your namesake !! The re-delivery in spring with a dozen Chipunks trying to start after winter storage was like world war three! The cartridges were great for apprentice experiments! We opened them up took out the cordite and fast burners and used them in all kinds of projects.!

Tashengurt

9th Dec 2018, 10:43

GotTheTshirt,
I'm afraid Coffman made his last flight some time ago. His gentle wit is missed on this site but over on the Military aircrew pages the caption comp winner is still awarded the CoffmanStarter memorial trophy.

ferrybloke

16th Apr 2019, 19:05

Tashengurt Background Noise Thank you for posting this.. it's very cool. I probably have the original aircraft log from that day! If you find yourself in the Los Angeles area, come and fly WG430 again! Cheers, Steve. www dot wg430 dot com

deltahotel

2nd May 2019, 13:48

ferrybloke

7th May 2019, 01:33

Only just seen this thread and it brings back memories of Peter Stonham and Paddy Brown from my three month hold in early 1985. Convex 1 15 Feb, WG430. In those three months I flew 55 hours and a whole bunch of cadets in the following ac:

WG 430
WP 855
WZ 845
WB 569

I also did a Summer Camp at Manston in Jul 88 and flew:

WD 373

Happy days!

If ever you find yourself in the Palm Springs, California area... come and fly WG430 again! I have the original RAF log pages.. perhaps I can find some of yours and send you copies? Thanks for posting... I've posted lots updates and photos at www dot wg430 dot com :-)