Avient making headlines again

[africa man]

I see Avient are making headlines again this week in the air cargo press for all the wrong reasons like Gun running and Diamond smuggling, even though Mr Smith strongly denies all the accusations, there's no smoke without fire you only have to speak to some of their ex employee's to learn of some of the SPARKLING revelations, in the things they carry around Africa. Obviously the statement flag of convenience must play some small part especially coming from Zimbabwe.

[charter man]

Can't be true - see Avient's own website http://www.avient.aero/EmbargoGoods.htm
Unless anyone you know knows better :hmm:

[AAL]

Charter Man, take it you are not being serious?

[charter man]

They do say that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I prefer to think of it as an ironic comment.....

[charter man]

Apparently the Air Cargo News article has found it's way on to the desk of some important people in Washington involved in US government contracts, which may have some serious implications for the planned Iraq venture.

[AAL]

The wheel is round and sometimes turns slowly, but it turns.

If true it took them an awfully long time to wake up to the reality!

[Dengue_Dude]

Sometimes it's expedient for the wheels to turn slowly, sometimes the movement is barely perceptible. . .

[charter man]

Vatry to Baghdad started a couple of weeks ago, according to their website. I think you under-estimate the influence of the US government Fogrunner, trust me - they have a lot of "say" in that part of the world.

[charter man]

The jungle drums are beating load about a forthcoming "major announcement" - any word out there?

[cargobird]

Not sure about any announcement, but seems they have cancelled their scheduled flights into Lagos last few days.:confused:

[zfwmac]

And................still waiting.

[thrax]

I hear there is panic among the crews and they are looking for new jobs, the 40% pay cut must of really hurt.

There is a strong murmering they will cease ops to today.

[Need to Know Basis]

If they are to cease ops......thats the first rumour i`ve heard. I thought all was well with them ?

Thrax were does you info come from ?

[Lambrettaman]

I hear they have lost their Traffic Rights into Baghdad for their new scheduled service that they started a couple of weeks ago. Andrew Smith ? Couldn't happen to a nicer chap.............:rolleyes:

[zfwmac]

Isn't that just typical Smith trying to go one better than everyone else, MK cuts pay by 20% so he goes 40%?!
Anyway, all this must be rubbish as he has been telling his crews he is getting a fleet of MD11's to replace the DC10's.:=

[747Comet]

They are due to fly tonight out of LFOK but that could be a smoke screen.

I would like to know where you think a fleet of MD11s is going to come from, Fedex and UPS have taken all the available units.

Avient are always in the press about this and that, why are they now being so tight lipped do they have something to hide?

hmmm me thinks:confused:

[zfwmac]

Avient always have something to hide.

[AAL]

Afraid have to agree with 747Comet. There are no idle MD11's standing around available to be snapped up.

[ajwajw]

Some of you lot have no clue at all, I could find ten MD11's now available for purchase or lease, so what does that say about your comments. Only open your mouths if you know what you are talking about.

If you do not know that the World is awash with aircraft then what do you know about anything else you claim!

[zfwmac]

Even if the world was awash with spare aircraft and there was a few MD11's parked up, you will find that they are all on the reserved list for the likes of FedEX who can afford to put down a retaining deposit on all the available airframes. If Andrew Smith has managed to convince any of his crews he has the financial clout to go head to head with the likes of FedEX in a bidding war over any available MD11's then either his crews are extremely naive of he is a better and bigger conman than most people take him for (and that may be a possibility). :yuk:
There has been more talk recently from his warren on salisbury plains of his change of plans now to go with Airbus to replace the 10's! At the end of the day if things get too tough, my money is on the outfit being offered to his buddy bob for nationalisation. This prospect has been on the cards for a long time and was hinted at by one of bobs cronies a few years ago.

[AAL]

ajwajw, dont make broad sweeping statements, - it only serves to demonstrate your ignorance.

Now put your money where your mouth is wiseguy, name the MD-11's by registration no and company that you suggest are freely available for lease or purchase.

You have us waiting in suspense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:confused:

[Burger Thing]

Hmmmm, Transmile in Malaysia has been trying to sell their 4 P&W MD-11's for over a year now... No luck so far.... :rolleyes:

Oh, yeah: Registration:

9M-TMP
9M-TMQ
9M-TMR
9M-TMS

Anybody need the cellphone number of the FOM? :}

[slowto280]

I understand Tradewinds (US) has a class of previously qualified MD-11 guys going on right now for airplanes they will get in the near future. If they can find and lease or purchase, seems like not too difficult....... IF, of course, true.

[Dengue_Dude]

I think perhaps, the news is worse than that . . .

I doubt it's about MD11s at all.

[AAL]

Transmile is under some sort of bankrupcy protection and not in a position to dispose of any of their assests, even their old 727's, till the situation has been resolved.

That rules them out.

[speedygonzalez]

LCAG has some of them stored. I am sure they would be quite happy to sell it to an airline that will not be a direct competition to them...

Moreover, EVA in Taiwan has lots of them as well...

If you want it, you can find it...

[africa man]

well come on chaps we seem to be getting away from the Avient issue which was why the tread was started in the first place, we all know that if you have the dosh there are md-11f's avble you may even get a BOGOF offer in the current climate, anyway further up-dates on the avient situation, they have just made 6 cpt's, 3 x fe's, 3 x fo's and 3 x l/m's redundant, and rumour has it that they have also just lost the traffic rights into Baghdad, which was their sparkling new destination, so what is happening with this african carrier has mr smith stretched the purse strings too far ???......updates please

[Lambrettaman]

I am a great believer in what goes around comes around. If ones business ethic is to try and screw all your customers and your staff live in fear of the owner (Smith) then can you really expect them to survive in the longer term? No reputable leasing company would lease a valuable asset like an MD11F to a Zimbawean registered airline and Avient only got the DC10's from Boeing Capital because they had no other home for them after the demise of Das Air. It's only a matter of time.......

[zfwmac]

We all know there are MD11's sitting on the ground doing nothing due to the downturn in the industry but my previous point was that any airframe worth anything has already been 'reserved' by the big players. Mr Smith has kept his crews by dangling the carrot of a change in fleet for a long time now but even an idiot would realise that the amount of capitol required to finance a fleet change would be far beyond the means of Avient. Are they parking up an a/c given the number of crews he has supposedly laid off? Seems the wheel is continuing to turn and maybe the remaining crews should be looking elsewhere very soon before they find themselves stranded.

[Need to Know Basis]

I assume they have had to stop the flights into Iraq because of the new found strength of Iraqi Airways and their new partner Rus Aviation with cargo in / out. In short - if its not planned / arranged via Rus and a royalty payment is duely distributed.......you don`t fly. At least that is what is happening UAE / Kuwait or any country around Iraq. Although it now appears ( my assumption ) to have spread to the rest of the world. It even applies to US Military flights !!! via Iraqi Civilian Airports.....the situation is bizarre.....but produces lots of $$$$ for someone, for the time being.

[flyerman2020]

Sorry to do this, but there are at least 4 units available on the open market for sale.

Transmile's 4 MD11F's are currently being remarketed, Aeroflot cargo went belly up a few weeks back and those leased aircraft may be made available for lease, and on top of those ones, there are around 10 that are being parked/stored as airlines try to weather the downturn.

In short, if Avient want MD11F's, they could certainly get hold of some for short, medium or long term.

[747Comet]

SMJ354 Z-AVT is scheduled to leave EDFH at 22:05 GMT tonight destination is ORBI.

[Bob the Dog]

It seems they are moving there ops from xcr to lgg.
one a/c at Lgg today leaving for Iraq.

[Super Baloo]

There has been some discussions about a possible move to LGG for some time now.
I think they were afraid that Cargo B could object on some of their routes as they are Z-registered and need to obtain non-objection for any flights ex-LGG (except to Harare of course).
Now Cargo B is history, so who knows what's going through a commercial manager's head ?
I personnaly think they would be fool to leave XCR to LGG as they will never get the same service in LGG.
They are the "kings" of XCR. They can ask pretty much whatever they want regarding loading (especially for some extra long pieces) and they get it.
They can forget that in LGG.

Just my 2 cents....

[CargoMatatu]

Absolutely agree with Super Baloo.

Used to hate it when assigned to work LGG! :{

[Bob the Dog]

Hm..... The handling agent at Lgg they will use is pretty good.
I have pushed some serious loads trough that place allready and
they managed fine.

Anyway, it is all about the money!

[Acid-drop]

It's exactly the kind of company that lgg management tries to attract.
They have the warehouse ready, everything could start very quickly ...
and we already know the advantages of LGG ...

On the other hand, we know vatry will fight to death to not loose this kind of player

[cargobird]

Understand that Avient are moving their European base from Vatry to Liege. Thought they were happy with the service they got at Vatry?:suspect:

[Acid-drop]

It's still a rumour, and that rumour is not new ... it started more than 1 year ago ...
wait and see, but there are no evidence yet

[747Comet]

Have seen this today


Good Afternoon,

As of today Avient are no longer operating from Vatry airport.

We will no longer be sending trucks down to Vatry, so will be unable to move any of your cargo to this destination.


Apologies.

Thanks for your business and we hope to work with you again in the fututre.

[overlength]

It's fact effective today.....! seems short notice.?:uhoh:

[Acid-drop]

Are we sure the new airport is LGG ?
I see no evidence ...

EDIT : I've found this:
OAGCargo.com - The leading information portal for the cargo industry (http://www.oagcargo.com/message.asp?message=40671)

I'm very surprised that we had no official communication from Liège airport, they usually are proud to announce things like that.

LGG is also trying to attract Thai cargo which need a good african net from the european base.

[charter man]

I would say so, they have issued an announcement to all of their customers that all ops moved to Liege "with effect 8th September". Seems a slightly hasty departure from Vatry:hmm:.

[Lambrettaman]

Vatry Monday, Liege Tuesday, very strange ! For such a quick change of base to happen and only notifying your customers on the day it happens does not sound like a coordinated move in my opinion. Vatry Airport can kiss goodbye to any oustanding funds due to them.:ugh:

[Acid-drop]

it's now official
Avient Newsroom (http://www.avient.aero/Newsroom.htm)

[Dengue_Dude]

Hmmm, makes you wonder how many of the bills in the local area will be settled.

Hotels, rentals etc

As for most of the staff at Avient - Vatry - good riddance, many were very rude and unhelpful, especially Fat Pat.

[Acid-drop]

Any idea of the trafic Avient was generating in Vatry ?
They say Avient was doing 70% of Vatry tonnage: 40.000 tons/year

(I'm so surprised that Vatry was so small in fact, nothing to compare to LGG, now it'll be even smaller, sad for them though)

[Penge Flyer]

I have been assured that Avient will honour all its outstanding debt in Vatry, this was passed on to me on the basis that the only way Avient would want to move to Liege would be on the understanding that all its creditors will be paid in full.

[charter man]

Fine words Penge Flyer - but let's see if that is the way it really happens, it has all the hallmarks of a hasty retreat in my book, and historically that means Trouble...

[Acid-drop]

Official communication from Liège airport :
http://www.liegeairport.com/documents/09-09-09AvientchoosesLiegeasitsEuropeanhub.pdf

The belgian press is saying that avient has a debt of 1 million euro in Vatry.

[hydroplane]

what Belgian press??

[Acid-drop]

RTBF radio

[Dengue_Dude]

The magnitude of the alleged debt would not surprise me - all the assurances in the world are only any good when backed up by action.

All will become apparent. It's unlikely they'll be operating 3 DC10s out of Liege if what I've heard is correct.

[Acid-drop]

>It's unlikely they'll be operating 3 DC10s out of Liege if what I've heard is correct.

What do you mean ?
They are talking about 6 flights/week, which is not that much ...

[africa man]

Well i don't think they will be having 3 x dc.10's, as i understand that they now only have 2 left flying around since that lost the BGW contract. well their move to LGG may mean that they receive some SAFA inspections which is not before time , as they always seemed to miss these at vatry, something to do with the French protection of employment in that region of france, perhaps the inspectors that were always found in the bushes in AMS waiting to pounce on previous African carriers can take a road trip to spend some time at LGG, that could put a spanner in the works of Avient's flying operations you best start cleaning your hydraulics Mr Smith, these inspectors pop up at odd times, and you don't want to get grounded in Europe too many times.

[AAL]

Wonder what has become of the sister's French husband who is/was the manager of Vatry airport.

Did the guy retire, was he transferred to Liege, is he through family ties and obligations co-responsible for the bills that were allowed to be run up at Vatry?

If the figures mentioned for outstanding XCR costs are correct, no wonder Avient could fly and compete at the price and level they were.

Still want to know how the ex-DAS aircraft with Uganda registrations that were no longer acceptable into the EU, can freely and unhindered fly into the EU with dubious Zimbabwe registrations.

[Flightmech]

Fogrunner,

Not 100% correct. FedEx have just introduced another MD-11 airframe (572) into service with another (573) currently in SIN and about to follow. Both ex TAM.:ok:

(off topic sorry)

[altayaara]

It is obvious the Liege Management could not do any press-release before the flights were effective.

This all has to do with the way they would have got Cargo B airlines from Brussels into Liege and suddenly found Cargo B not to operate anymore due to its debts and its bankers refusal to continue.

Since July , Liege airport has become more careful with the press releases, which is safer and avoids not to be taken seriously.

For Vatry, this move is simply desastrous and will hit this airport heavily.

But in aviation nothing is sure anymore.

[africa man]

well lets hope that the airport accs dept at lgg are a lot tighter than they were at vatry, or we shall see some snow plough's chained round the wheel's quite soon into their operation from LGG...:D

[charter man]

Point well made AAL, and also what about the rules on principal place of business for foreign AOC holders?

[900EX]

@africa man "you don't want to get grounded in Europe too many times"

Not sure whether Avient generally needs to be afraid of SAFA inspectors. I have witnessed a ramp inspecton of Z-AVT by german LBA with no findings.

[cargobird]

If Avient owe a large sum to Vatry airport it would explain their overnight departure and relocation to Liege. Can't see it being very long before those owed get a lien placed onto aircraft somewhere in Europe....?:ok:

[AAL]

All things being equal, all the questions asked, dubious history and activities, allegations and circumstances - perhaps we have Europe's own version of the original Flying Tigers of yore.

Untouchable and a different set of rules?

[Freight Expectations]

Vatry's views and Avient response on Air Cargo News website..
Air Cargo News :: The World's Best Read Air Cargo Newspaper (http://aircargonews.net/air_cargo_news_home.aspx)

[Dengue_Dude]

In my personal experience, I would think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Relations were not good for a long time, but the assertion was (when I was last in the know) Vatry were owed substantial amounts for all sorts of services.

I will be pleasantly shocked if all the bills are paid. My opinion is, I don't believe it.

As for "honourable", I think that perhaps Mr. Smith and I would have different definitions as to what that actually means. I saw no evidence of that when I met him from time to time. He's, quite frankly, quite an unpleasant individual.

[zfwmac]

Oh please, can we not use the words 'honourable' and 'Smith' in the same discussion. It's just too much to bear.
I wonder how many of his customers will continue to provide cargo knowing full well that it may end up being impounded in the middle of a legal spat between Avient and Vatry. The last thing they would want is their cargo sitting on an aircraft which has a lien taped to it.
Smith seems to be pushing his luck if he is counter claiming against Vatry for 'sub-standard service' and lost cargo etc (according to his comment in ACN) He did after all employ his own staff to oversee the wharehouse operation in XCR!:=

[AAL]

Andrew Smith and his Zimbabwean cohort Lewis Kling are honourable people indeed, sure Mugabe strongman Air Marshall Perence Shiri and the other Zimbabwean Generals will give them a glowing testimonial, - but not help to pay the outstanding bills.

Wonder if Andy's spat with the Vatry Airport Authority is now going to cause bad blood in the family, surely if he had a problem with services and standards at Vatry, the brother in law (Vatry Airport Manager) could easily have resolved.

The wheel might turn slowly Mr Smith but it turns and all good things come to pass.

Its time to account now. Liege please know what you are letting yourselves in for!

[overlength]

heard that Avient had an 'incident' in LGG during pushback Sunday, aircraft is now AOG and schedules are all over the place, now down to one DC10 flying.

[charter man]

Heard it may have been one of their own engineers driving a cherry-picker under the wing and clouted it! If that is true, someone will definitely be sent down the salt mines in Zim!
There is also word that the lack of aircraft availability may be caused by a piece of ground equipment parked behind one of the fleet (maybe at the behest of Vatry....?) - surely that couldn't be true :E

[sp48hx]

Mrs S will be doing her nuts!
I wonder if the Mx chappy had a work permit to let him live and work in Belgium? I gather from the people in Vatry that a lot of the Mx staff were recruited in Africa, The frenchies turned a blind eye to it, would the Belgium Authoritys be so forgiving? :=

[charter man]

Surely the French didn't turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants, quelle horreur!!!!

[E1509]

Avient have moved to a base in Belgium I have been told. And yes they are still around as I saw them doing Sim last week-end.10th.

[JW411]

"Avient have moved to a base in Belgium, I have been told".

I wonder if you could do some research and tell us which base in Belgium they have moved to?

As a suggestion, you could start with Post #37 on Page 2 of this very thread.

Please report back when you have the answer.

[Acid-drop]

you guys have issues :) lol

[Acid-drop]

Some pics of the avient bird(s) (check the background too) in LGG

MST-Aviation.nl - Euregional Aviation Portal (http://www.mst-aviation.nl/portal/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=15346)

[charter man]

Not sure I see the relevance of these pics, was there an incident, and was it photographed, or was it all just an ugly rumour....

[Acid-drop]

not completely sure ...
I heard more people talking about it, and it seems that there is indeed one DC10 parked in LGG for days (that you can see on the pics)

[Fish Head on Final]

And one in KHI Karachi. Parkt on the PIA Maint Ramp:D

[Acid-drop]

The AC left LGG monday morning.

Source : A380thebigbeast from mst-aviation.nl

[Iamnotapilot]

To mention Avient in the same breath as Flying Tigers is the most laughable comment I have seen on PPrune. Suspect AAL must suffer from an extended lack of oxygen at 38,000 feet.

[Lambrettaman]

I agree. Ned Wallace was a visionary at Flying Tigers and many other airlines since. Avient's boss/owner is not, although I can think of a few words begining with W that may reflect most peoples opinion of him and Avient :8

[MadDogfr8runner]

The Americans are comming!

[AAL]

Certainly not on the same scale, Imnotapilot, but please dont split your hairs or fingernails, you wont understand anyway!

[Iamnotapilot]

Huh??? Translation Please AAL

[oligoe]

HHMMM...who had doubts about Avient and MD11s ???

JetPhotos.Net Photo » N408SH (CN: 48408) Avient Aviation McDonnell Douglas MD-11(F) by Roberto collazo (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6694639&nseq=4)

[dionysius]

Fair dinkum :ok:

You have to give credit to Mr Smith, he seems to be attempting to get his company in a good position to reap the post recession benefits :ok:

[dc9-32]

That MD11 has been airbrushed. Now, moving on........

[charter man]

No you don't - and a lot of people won't, particularly owners of MD11's methinks...

[airops78]

Certainly not airbrushed, I've seen it in the flesh so to speak.

[The Slice]

Charter Man

Yawn Yawn Yawn!! You should pop down to Autoglass to see if they can do anything to fill that chip you seem to be carrying. You may just crack.....:ok:

[overlength]

slice, what about the alleged debt of €1 million left behind in XCR..?:confused:

[The Slice]

Overlength,

Don't know. But with everything in life I am sure there are two sides to a story. :confused:

Slice

[africa man]

Well we shall have to see what happens in the coming months, it's one thing having a nice new paint job and having the aircraft looking pretty on the ramp, but it's another thing getting the aircraft registered and in the air earning money as all the time it sits there it's not earning so lets wait and see !!

[SpootNICK]

Funny how its always the same old, and the emphasis is on OLD, characters that bitch and moan about SMJ and Andrew Smith. Do us all a favour and go back to your mud huts and enjoy an early retirement. The airline industry has changed, it is no longer what it used to be. Its a dog-eat-dog world out there, and jobs are few and far between. SMJ employs a great bunch of people, and seeing an MD-11 on the ramp is a clear sign of progress. The demise of Gemini and the like dealt a devastating blow to many livelihoods. Growth, however small is growth none the less. :*

[Lambrettaman]

Rumour coming out of Nigeria this morning is that Avient have cancelled todays flight into Port Harcourt as they owe Conoil $2M and they are refusing to supply them any more fuel! Won't be long before the Nigerian equivalent of a snow plough will be parked behind the next Avient aircraft visiting Nigeria (assuming they get some other suckers to supply them with fuel on credit !). When will these fuel companies every learn ? :ugh:

[charter man]

I'm sure World Fuels will give them credit, they let MK have 3 million dollars worth before the administrator came in!
Any more news on the MD11F, seen in MIA last week - why isn't it earning it's keep?
CM

[AAL]

Cause its photoshopped :E

[Acid-drop]

no it's not ;)
They talk about an MD11 here
http://www.liegeairport.com/documents/EmploiAVIENT_000.pdf

[mikebravo787]

lets and wait and watch... and not jump the gun..

[STN Ramp Rat]

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6694639

[millionAIR]

Take a look at their website. Avient Limited Specialising in Air Cargo to Africa and the World (http://www.avient.aero). Looks like they have it.

[PH-SCP]

Rumour has it that the Avient MD-11F will be delivered to Liege on the 18th of November 2009. Let's wait and see...

[superspotter]

The Avient registered IL-76 has now ben parked up in Fujairah for over a month now, maybe on maintenance or they have finished with it??

[Dengue_Dude]

The Avient registered IL-76 has now ben parked up in Fujairah for over a month now, maybe on maintenance or they have finished with it??

It was close to major servicing required so perhaps it's finished, probably cheaper to replace, if required, than service.

[AAL]

Maximum extendable life limit has finally expired. This was one of the first T models ever built but exceptionaly well maintained while it was in Avient's service.

[Dengue_Dude]

In fairness, it was a credit to the crew - who appeared to look after it.

When I had a look around it, it was pretty immaculate - even more guys looking for work I imagine though.

[gtf]

AirCargo News says the new MD11 will operate between Europe & Asia. So not replacing an existing DC10 but adding to the fleet instead ?

Avient adds MD-11F to fleet :: Air Cargo News :: The World's Best Read Air Cargo Newspaper (http://www.aircargonews.net/News/Avient-adds-MD~11F-to-fleet.aspx)

[superspotter]

Well, in honour of the old lady, taken in Benghazi last year:-
http://newimages.fotopic.net/?iid=yzomog&outx=800&quality=80

[747Comet]

SMJ123F due to dep KMIA 00:10UTC 19Nov and arr EBLG 08:30UTC 19Nov
Aircraft reg Z-BAV.

[Lambrettaman]

Aircraft still in Miami. Probably rectifying a few snags prior to ferry flight. This aircraft was parked up for a long time after the demise of Varig Log so I wouldn't expect it to be that reliable for the first few months of operation. Also Commercial Jet in Miami (the maint provider) is not exactly a KLM or SR technics !

[747Comet]

Lambrettaman - I hear the MD is still in MIA any news or update when she is due to fly out?

[Acid-drop]

It's now flying between Liège and Hong-Kong it seems
Avient is expecting a second MD11 for the begining on 2010

[PH-SCP]

MD11F Z-BAV is up and running. It just landed in Liege again as SMJ374F from Shannon. Mode S was showing something completely different. Crew had a clear Portugese accent, most likely they stayed with the aircraft as it migrated from Brazil :}

[BOMBADIER]

Good luck to all at Avient - met these chaps and a super bunch. It takes guts to look forward in these hard times - it's all too easy to give up and throw everything and everyone on the scrap heap - the new bird is a credit. Here's to happy flying.:ok:

[four engine jock]

Never believe anything you hear and read. Best of luck to Avient.

[gtf]

Singapore Straits Times says a MD-11F registered in Zimbabwe crashed on take-off at PVG. Four accounted for, three missing.
How many MD11Fs are on Zimbabwe register ?

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

Wow, less than a week in service before written off. Me thinks this is the
end for Avient.

[AAL]

Trust that the world will now sit up and pay attention.

Is the Zimbabwean CAA type rated to register, certify, regulate and oversee MD-11's, DC-10's, and IL-76's.

Also time for the world and especially the EU to question why Avient fly on a second-rate degenarated to third world standard registry of convenience, but are allowed to base themselves in and operate permanently in and out of Europe.

Why the European Union allowed the two ex-DAS DC-10's to operate like this based and flying in and out of Europe, if because of their age and condition they were banned when flying for DAS.

Regret to say, this was coming. Post your real name and address before attacking someone by name. CR2.

Condolences to families and friends, and may crew RIP.

[MaxedOutMan]

Seems as though Z-BAV overran runway 35R (4000 meters/13123 feet long) on take-off and burst into flames.

Crew were taken to local hospitals, where three died. Three of the survivors received minor injuries, the fourth received serious injuries but is in a stable condition.

[Dengue_Dude]

The Americans are comming!

Tragically correct, and going . . .

US sources (Washington Post) are quoting that the MD11 flight crew killed were all Americans.

Condolences to all concerned.

[Lambrettaman]

AAL - Although this is a tragic accident, your comments are completely accurate. How many African Cargo Airlines have to crash before the EEU and others realise that there is no Safety Oversight or Compliance in these countries. (How can there be with the lack of infrastructure and funding to monitor these 'offshore' airlines especially with the more modern aircraft types such as the MD11). Avient have a dubious reputation at best and this accident will put them very much under the spotlight with the safety authorities which is so it should be. Our hearts go out to the familes and friends of the crew members that have lost their lives, they deserved better.

[templarmaster]

Heart felt sympathy to family and friends of the MD11 crew that died and a swift recovery and repatriation to the surviviors.

I hope the cause of this accident was not overloading. when I worked for Avient, this subject was always a bugbear, we would ask the MD what payload to use for FPL purposes and the same reply came back "as much as you can get on", when he felt the payload was not enough - a re-clear FPL was run to get more on.

We will have to wait and see.

RIP the Crew

[tflier]

What can I say. Very sad. Won't speculate, but having flown for them.......
Hope Mr. Smith stands by the families of the deceased, I am sure Jane will do her level best to do everything that she can. 2/5 of the fleet gone in a couple of weeks.

[charter man]

This is eerily similar to MK 747 at Halifax... let us hope that the Chinese investigators do as good a job as the Canadians in getting the facts right. The most positive outcome of Halifax was forcing MK off of an African register of convenience and "going legit". Perhaps we can (and should) expect a similar outcome for Avient?

[Lambrettaman]

This particular MD11F (ex Varig Log) had the lower Landing Weight Limit
(a $500k paperwork upgrade if you can afford it) and Avient were only offering a commercial nett payload to the Brokers of 82,000 Kilos compared to 85T-87T nett payload that can be carried by LH/World etc.

[zfwmac]

I was appalled when I saw the Avient website today, at the very least the company could have made a statement that their immediate concern was for the crew and their families, instead all the world got was a cold and insensitive message. Wake up Mr Smith, right now the industry has you under the spotlight and you have failed at the first hurdle. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[AfgAirOps]

I was appalled when I saw the Avient website today, at the very least the company could have made a statement that their immediate concern was for the crew and their families, instead all the world got was a cold and insensitive message. Wake up Mr Smith, right now the industry has you under the spotlight and you have failed at the first hurdle. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Saw that also and would have to say I was very disappointed but, unfortunately, not at all surprised.

For anyone who hasn't seen it the statement was;

An Avient Aviation operated aircraft was involved in an accident at approximate 00:16 GMT today while the aircraft, a McDonnell Douglas MD11 Freighter , was operating a charter freight flight from Pudong International Airport in China.

Preliminary information indicates that the accident occurred on takeoff from Pudong International Airport. The aircraft was carrying a crew of 7.

At this time, the full resources of Avient's accident response team have been mobilised and will be devoted to cooperating with all authorities responding to the accident.

At this time no further information is available. Avient will continue to release additional information as it is confirmed.

Rgds
AAO

[templarmaster]

Well Mr Smith may have got is act slightly together "a response team", He had no such team available before he moved ops from LGW. It was call him, the technical director and the LGW office manager. No accident procedures, no dedicated emergancy cell, i.e. phone lines etc., So I guess his response team is probably him and the tech director.
With regards to a statement with regards to the crew, Mr. Smith does not appear to be a caring employer

[CargoOne]

Of course you were expecting Avient to gather 150 heads strong team and setup a toll-free call centre, breaking news every 15 minutes on all channels etc? Get a life, this is an all-cargo operation with a few airframes.

Statement quoted looks like taken from emergency response plan, we have something very similar, just a bunch of templates.

[SWBKCB]

Of course you were expecting Avient to gather 150 heads strong team and setup a toll-free call centre, breaking news every 15 minutes on all channels etc?

But isn't that what the use of the phrase "At this time, the full resources of Avient's accident response team have been mobilised" is trying to imply??

[CargoOne]

But isn't that what the use of the phrase "At this time, the full resources of Avient's accident response team have been mobilised" is trying to imply??

Absolutely not. Maybe this is something what other people imagined. What Avient press release says is approaprite resources has been allocated. I have no idea what their resources are but 2-3 people would be enough, one to cover MX side follow up and records preservasion, another one OPS side and dispatch docs, one more to talk to families, insurance and customer. Been there, done that. There is nil public interest to this accident, like to most other all-cargo accidents.

What you think they should do and how many people should be there? In case you don't know there is very little involvement required from airline side at initial stage, only factual information. Airline reps are normally not allowed on site at all. The rest is just PR is you want to compare it to AirFrance case.

[Metro man]

Wow, less than a week in service before written off. Me thinks this is the
end for Avient.

MK Airlines managed to survive four total hull loss accidents.

Hope everything is correct with the insurance so at least the crews families get something.

[JS51672]

Sad that Avient has owned only one month the aircraft.

Varig flew with the aircraft under registration PR-LGD JetPhotos.Net Photo » PR-LGD (CN: 48408) Varig Log McDonnell Douglas MD-11(F) by Jeroen Stroes (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6089820)

Previous owner was also Korean Airlines!

[cargobird]

It is absolutely tragic that three experienced aviators have lost their lives in this awful accident. RIP Guys :sad:

I truly hope that they have not been let down by a lack of regulation which appears to allow airlines such as Avient to continue worldwide operations without any real safety oversight and effectively allows them to operate under a flag of convenience. The company aircraft rarely, if ever, operate to Zimbabwe, so there is little chance for the controlling authority to maintain an effective regime of oversight.

I would very much doubt that the authority in question have the necessary resources to effectively manage the safety of any airline operating outside of its boarders, let alone an airline which has its command and control based in the United Kingdom with an operational base in Liege, Belgium, even if it does have a pseusdo airline HQ in Harare.

It will be interesting to see what the FAA/NTSB/CAAC accident investigators conclude with regard to the introduction of a new aircraft type onto the Avient Air Operators Certificate and whether all the requisit elements for this operation were sufficiently in place to support its introduction to revenue service.

[foxy2600]

Ask yourself this. Nearly 10 years safe operation with DC10 (yes the odd engine blow up, RTO etc. but who doesn't) and quite a few SAFA inspections in that time. Nothing to endorse any of the frankly vitriolic comments found on this site. So until the investigation is done, and we are availed of the cause of the crash, please could we in the name of good sense and with respect to the dead, keep to facts and not speculation. Rumour network it may be but trying to tie a possible over-rotation/power-loss to there being a Z Registration on the fuselage, even for me is pretty far fetched. The fact that an aircraft doesn't have to meet EASA rules to fly in and out of Euroland, is probably true of 3/4 of the worlds fleets. Nonetheless, everyone has to meet basic ICAO standards, which are more than fit for purpose. Even with the might of EASA regulating, inspecting, legislating and general 'red-taping', EU carriers are still killing people.

Rant over :ugh:

[PH-SCP]

Z-ALT during touchdown today (29-11-2009) at Liege (Belgium):

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/905/zalt.jpg

I presume Avient is in the spotlight and will be closely watched by SAFA teams and others but companies like this have their ways to survive. I am sure that this tragic loss won't close them down immediately.

[Dengue_Dude]

You joined Prune in 2005.

I appreciate what you're saying, but asking for what you are is a little naive on this forum. It's what people DO. Every single accident posted here, gets a chorus of theories about causes - in bad taste or not.

You've only to listen to people discussing a football match to know that's what humans do - all the time. Now you'll want to say (quite reasonably) 'but this is different - people have died' - and you'd be right, people have. But will it make any difference to those who 'must' propose their theory, or those that hate the company for reasons various? I doubt it.

There are quite a few people on this particular thread who have personal experience with the company and AS - the comment about 10 years safe flying rather rankled with me - if you only knew (perhaps you DO know, because I don't know WHO I'm talking to). Some of the 'stories' (I am aware of the law) would make your toes curl.

Personally, I am very sorry for those involved, especially for their next of kin and the genuine guys and girls working for the company, it's a tragedy for all concerned.

I really, really hope that insurance is in place, rather than 'It's OK, Andrew will look after you'. He can only DO that IF, he has the means and if he wants to.

What happens if he doesn't want to defies imagination (IF that regime is still in force).

As for the cause of the accident, I would say it's pretty irrelevant just at the moment - that'll be established later. You cannot reasonably expect people in this business not to theorise, however right and noble your reasons.

[Dengue_Dude]

SEATTLE, Nov. 28, 2009 - Boeing has recently learned that an MD-11 freighter airplane crashed shortly after takeoff from Shanghai Pudong International Airport on Saturday morning (local time). All of us at Boeing wish to offer our condolences to the family and friends of those who lost their lives in the crash. We will keep the injured crew members and their families in our thoughts. At the invitation of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, Boeing is providing technical assistance to the investigation in coordination with the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board.

# # #
Contact:
Sandy Angers
Boeing Commercial Airplanes
+1 206-851-7974 (mobile)

[goma]

HERE HERE,well said,some sense at last !!:ok:

[Acid-drop]

There is a wikipedia page for those who are interested by the case
Avient Aviation Flight 324 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avient_Aviation_Flight_324)

Remember it's wikipedia, anybody can edit and add facts linked to sources. it'll then a lot easier to find information in the future, when all blog/forum/news pages will be gone.

[CargoOne]

Acid-drop,

Just in case it was you making this wiki page, I suggest you to reconsider crashed possibly because of tail-strike during take-off roll wording. Airplanes are rarely crashing because of tail-strike as such.

[charter man]

Foxy2600, your rant about the irrelevance of the country of registration is not well made. Statistically, 50 percent of accidents are caused by pilot error, 25 percent by mechanical failure and the rest by a variety of reasons. The accident rate of African cargo operators is amongst the worst in the world. QED pilots of African registered freighters crash more than most.
This is a rumour network for professional aviators, many of whom are affected by these events and therefore speculation and assumption are it's raison d'etre. There are plenty of places to go and read the factual reports of aircraft crashes if that is what you want to see.
As a resident of "Euroland" I expect the regulators to ensure the safe and lawful operation of aircraft in our skies. I have already stated that the most positive outcome of Halifax was forcing MK to get a G- reg and if Avient wish to continue their operations in Europe I hope the politicos will finally see the light and prohibit their "flag of convenience".
CM

[Acid-drop]

Acid-drop,

Just in case it was you making this wiki page, I suggest you to reconsider crashed possibly because of tail-strike during take-off roll wording. Airplanes are rarely crashing because of tail-strike as such.

I am not the main author of the page, I just give the link here to share.
In fact, if you believe that something is wrong, the best is probably to edit the page and correct it. It would be good for everybody to not jump into conclusion too fast but it's also good to discuss about the possibilities.

[tjef2808]

I know for a fact that earlier this year Avient were making moves towards employing more technical personnel and transferring their aircraft to a European register.

This process may well have been affected by the move from Vatry to LGG.

I tell you something I would love to see how they get on attempting to register with the BCAA!:eek:

[Metro man]

Compare the costs of setting up and getting a business going in a first world country vs a third world one.

Third world will give you lower costs, less supervision and lower standards to meet in most areas. Once your business has grown and you need to go legitimate for further expansion, register everything in a first world country and continue on from there.

A few hundred thousand US$ and a beat up 1960/1970s airframe won't get you far in the EU but will probably get you going in Africa.

[CR2]

Investigators analysing CVR and FDR from crashed MD-11F (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/12/01/335634/investigators-analysing-cvr-and-fdr-from-crashed-md-11f.html)

Investigators have recovered the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder from a Boeing MD-11 freighter that crashed on take-off from Shanghai Pudong airport on 28 November.

"Both recorders have reached Beijing, and they are being analysed," says an official in the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC).

The exterior of the recorders has some damage, he adds.

Cargo carrier Avient Aviation was operating the aircraft, which had seven crew members on board. Three died and the remaining four were hospitalised.

It is still not clear if the aircraft, local registration Z-BAV, was airborne before it crashed. The CAAC had previously only said it skidded off the runway.

"Investigations are still going on in Shanghai and the circumstances are still unclear," says the CAAC official.

The aircraft was operating a charter freight flight and was carrying consumer products such as electrical goods and clothing, says Avient. Chinese media reports say the aircraft was bound for Bishkek, the capital of Kyrgyzstan.

[CR2]

Don't you love it when the uninformed on R & N make sweeping statements.... IT WAS THE LOADING... or the CIA of course. :rolleyes:

[mole man]

Any news of the injuries of the rest of crew, was a Loadmaster and Ground Eng on board.????

Mole Man

[Dengue_Dude]

It was carrying both if Avient are still following their normal SOP.

The GE is probably the Indonesian lad (hard working, cheerful and knowledgeable guys).

I suspect that the Belgian guy is the LM and am hoping he's not BD.

Whoever they are, can I wish them a speedy recovery - hope they make it home for Christmas.

[templarmaster]

Crew on board total 7 comprising of4 flight deck (heavy crew), 2 LM's, 1GE. Flt deck were American ex Gemini, 3 of whom sadly were the ones who died.

[cargobird]

What's happening with the Avient DC10's at the moment, they don't seem to have operated from Liege for the last couple of days?

[Acid-drop]

yesterday in LGG (planned, dunno if it was actually flying)
(edited - deleted)

[cargobird]

Acid-drop, not quite sure of the relevance of your posting about an Albanian registered MD82 operating from Liege?

[Acid-drop]

oops. My mistake. Let's forget that stupid move quickly.
You may be right, the last avient I see from my source is
ETA 09:55 SMJ216 ZAVT 08.12.2009
ETD 12:30 SMJ597 ZAVT 08.12.2009

[Limburg]

Yes, DC10s are still operational, the day before yesterday around 1030 the Z-AVT was logged inbound Liege on my SBS-1 basestation.

[Limburg]

Any news on the (2nd) MD-11F which was already painted, but parked in a hangar @ MIA?

[cargobird]

Understand that Avient's next MD11F is scheduled for delivery at the end of January. :suspect:

[PH-SCP]

MD Douglas MD-11F framenumber/construction number 495/48410 Z-BAT Avient Aviation seen at MIA 15jan10 prior delivery.
Ex N575SH, PR-LGE, HL7374

[Lambrettaman]

There must be some brave Insurance Underwriters out there who are going to cover the risk/liability on this second MD11F for Avient. Understand the claim on the first loss was in the region of $67 million.:rolleyes:

[charter man]

I have no doubt the CAAZ will be making use of the registration fees for Z-BAT to enhance their safety oversight procedures and to make sure there is no repeat of last November's crash:rolleyes:.
Is there any move for operators who are based in the EU to be forced either to have EU registration or at the very least EU safety oversight? The subject seems to be debated endlessly but nothing ever happens...

[AAL]

Also still want to know how its possible for aircraft registered on a dysfunctional country's dysfunctional Civil Aviation Register, to be based in Europe.

Does that mean that Congolese aircraft are also now welcome.

The worst or best case of European hypocracy I have ever seen.

[Dodo56]

As long as aircraft from country XYZ aren't prohibited from EU airspace who is to say they are based or simply visiting?

[charter man]

How about checking Avient's website home page and seeing where their contact details are? There used to be a requirement to prove your "principal place of business" for operators using the EU but that seems to have disappeared.
Remember Dasair (Ugandan registration) based in Gatwick, African International (Swazi registration - changed to South African) based in Gatwick and what about ACE (Ghana register) still based in Ostend?

[AAL]

Ask an aviator fom Harare if they ever see Avient aircraft in Zimbabwe.

The IL-76 they were flying may have gone there once or twice in a year but since its demise also no longer.

THAT's what's wrong with it. And if Air Zimbabwe is not yet banned in Europe, cant wait till they start flying their Xiang's there.

[Spaced Out]

AAL,

Is the IL not running for the South Africa Military, took over the contract from Adagold?

[PH-SCP]

MD11 Z-BAT was delivered this morning, Miami-Liege as SMJ456F...:ok::ok:

[Lambrettaman]

Do you think that someone from the Belgian CAA might ask a few questions about what happened on departure from Shanghai before they allow this replacement MD11F to depart from Liegge on a revenue flight ?
Or is it just a case of keeping your head down :confused:

[PH-SCP]

Do you think that someone from the Belgian CAA might ask a few questions about what happened on departure from Shanghai before they allow this replacement MD11F to depart from Liegge on a revenue flight ?
Or is it just a case of keeping your head down http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

I would hope that the Belgian CAA, as the rest of the professional aviation world, awaits the official report on the accident, before drawing any premature conclusions.

The delivery of the second MD11 (Z-BAT) is delayed. It is now scheduled to arrive in Liege later today (26th of January) from Miami as SMJ456F.

[Lambrettaman]

Agree, but in the absence of any official report to date, how do we know that the same scenario won't repeat itself, God forbid ? Whether it was human error or a mechanical failure, I assume that new procedures have been put in place although I am not sure how this can be done without an official report stating the cause of the accident in the first place.

[CargoOne]

Agree, but in the absence of any official report to date, how do we know that the same scenario won't repeat itself, God forbid ? Whether it was human error or a mechanical failure, I assume that new procedures have been put in place although I am not sure how this can be done without an official report stating the cause of the accident in the first place.

In other words you suggest BA and AF should be grounded as well before official reports are produced?

[kikker43]

BA and AF have reputable flight ops and don't try to skirt regulations with a registration from Zimb.

[cargobird]

If you draw a similar comparison between two national airlines and Avient you are sadly mistaken.

Avient's first MD11 was lost just days after entering service, on a type new to them and one which has never previously been registered under Zimbabwe safety oversight.

I would have thought that before a second aircraft enters service more questions should be answered.

[zfwmac]

As of last week, Avient were desperately trying to find an experienced MD11 loadmaster Instructor to train their existing loadmasters and had been looking and asking around the States. Does this mean they have no one on board that has any experience on type, if so, what happened on the first aircraft? All sounds a bit late to me! Second airframe about to arrive and still no experience within the organisation :ugh:

[PH-SCP]

Today Z-BVT arrived at Liege as SMJ456F from Miami. It touched down around 10:00 local time.... Here's photoproof, credit to Rex of www.mst-aviation.nl (http://www.mst-aviation.nl)

Sure hope it lasts longer than their first MD11. Wish them happy and good revenues and multiple safety assessment inspections from the EASA Foreign Airlines Safety Assessment Team...

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5008/zbvt.jpg

[Flightmech]

As PH-SCP says, I'm guessing there's going to be regular SAFA inspections on this one!

[CR2]

As of last week, Avient were desperately trying to find an experienced MD11 loadmaster Instructor

I know a couple of guys with lots of MD11F experience. All currently employed, but who knows... for the right money :} ...

[overlength]

hearing that Z-BVT is AOG in LGG...., should have operated a charter to PAP yesterday morning but hasn't gone anywhere yet..., not a very good start....

[PH-SCP]

It was scheduled to depart today as SMJ213, departure at 1200Z but I'm not sure if it actually went anywhere

[Flightmech]

Aircraft go AOG all the time. Maybe it's awaiting a spare. Nothing they can do about that. Happens to airlines with large resources.

[Limburg]

Anyone with info on the DC10s?

Z-ALT was last logged 12th of June 2010 (maintenance/retired?)
Z-AVT was last logged 24th of December 2009 (retired?)

The sole MD11 seems to be busy with flying to/from Liege daily.

[superspotter]

I have a pic of AVT departing LGG in mid March this year.

[Cape Fear]

Where is Sanders these days ?

[spanish no fly]

Up the river, dear boy, up the river........:ok:

[Hedfanwr]

I doubt that many of our readers will have heard of Edgar Wallace, or even Paul Robeson!!

[tflier]

Robeson, along with a generation of blacks caught up in the whirlwind events of the 1930s, saw the battle against racism as indivisible from the battle against capitalism. He was always scarred with Stalinist politics. But we should remember him as a singer, an artist and a tireless class warrior.

[Dengue_Dude]

Where's Sanders?

As far away as possible, with any luck . . .

[Engineer]

DD what are you doing these days Donnie bound and what about DT is he still at DHL? :ok:

[fergineer]

And keeping out of trouble too DD. Life is still good out here.

[Dengue_Dude]

Engineer:

Yep, still near DSA and working on behalf of a rather large aerospace company. DT still resides at BZZ for the time being.

Fergi:

Out in your neck of the woods (CHC) in February as No1 daughter has given in and decided to make us grand parents.

[Dengue_Dude]

The last I heard (earlier this year), was that Andrew DID turn his back on the surviving pilot of the Shanghai crash.

My point was that we were NEVER covered by personal insurance when we flew - just the assurance that ''Andrew will look after you''.

It would appear not, it my information was true.

[Rumour Ctl]

Doesn't appear things are looking very good at the moment.
A heavy landing in Dakar - with their one an only MD11F - damaging engine Nbr#2 with a long AOG before 2 engine ferry to Liege for more MX.. Now I hear they've lost / lost a thrust reverser on the last flight with some structural damage.. Has anyone else heard any more???

[PH-SCP]

Their only MD11 (Z-BVT) flew SMJ504F on the 29th of September which could have been the ferryflight you described. I do not know DEP/DEST of that flight. It then operated SMJ217 (Khartoum-Liege) on the 1st of October and it was seen sitting on the ramp on both the 2nd and 3rd of October.

DC10 Z-ALT operated flight SMJ501 on the 1st of October.

[relieved]

Hope all crews are OK. Something will eventually happen again, just a question of time, unless they fold.:D

[Flightmech]

Would love to see the logbook of that airplane. Although my bet is that it's clean as a whistle. Not a DMI in sight :-0

[Dengue_Dude]

Photoshop is your friend . . . again and again

[Oubi]

MD-11 was planned to depart this morning, back to stand...

[africa man]

well i expect that grand designs can find a use for any spare md-11 engines
amazing hot tub design..and cheap too may worth be thinking about...