Taxi with passengers not seated

[Olendirk]

Guys,

scenario: outside position, engines running. big aircraft, like 321,cpt starts taxiing and passengers not all seated. Who is responsible in this case when an injury occurs? captain who starts taxiing? chief of cabin not reporting that pax are still in the cabin?

Thanks folks

[muduckace]

Captain is responsible. The F.A.'s must report any unsecured pax.

Got in a tiff with a F.A. when a agent booked myself and my puppy in a emergency exit row. This ditz started to big deal it after pushback, I calmly explained to her that we could return to the gate and re-seat us or accept it.

She addressed the captain (I had not purchased my ticket with my UATP card).

Bottom line the Captain should have returned to the gate.

[misterblue]

Can never see what the big deal is, pax standing up while taxiing.

We happily sell them tickets on the flight, for a train, which will do 100mph, and on which you may not get a seat, never mind a seat belt.

Just think we should buy our insurance from the same place that the train companies buy theirs.

MB

[Cornish Jack]

misterblue - when trains have brakes as effective as aircraft your read-across nonsense will apply!!:ugh:

[Blip]

You should try standing up in a Sydney bus! They can brake as fast as a plane, and they can sure as %$^% rip around corners even faster! :ouch:

[Torque Tonight]

Who is responsible in this case when an injury occurs? captain who starts taxiing? chief of cabin not reporting that pax are still in the cabin?

Or the passenger who has not complied with a lawful order from the crew to sit down and belt up (assuming the the seatbelt signs are on etc). However, in this litigation culture the passenger will never take any personal responsibility so the airline can expect to be the target of any legal action.

Too many passengers have no respect whatsoever for the legal authority of an aircraft captain and his crew and take air travel no more seriously than jumping on a bus or a tube. These people are the ones that often become victims of natural selection when an emergency does occur.

[Avitor]

Rookie pax, like I was, years ago, when I stood during the ride to the stand might be excused but, like me, should listen to what they are told.
I was immediately compliant and felt sorry for the CC member who was forced to wise me up. :cool:

[lowcostdolly]

Hi Guys hope you don't mind a gatecrash to the tech log forum :)

I work for a certain loco carrier whose SOP's say the SLF have to be seated on taxi....we don't move unless all slides are armed. In fact the the SOP's go on to say the SLF carers aka the CC can only be up for safety related duties....."simples" to understand even for a CC manager and a base captain or is it???:confused: I'm confused because what happened to my friend, an ex fellow SCCM, could happen to me and I would like clarity. Thank god for this thread:ok:

Aircraft comes to stop in XXX. Seatbelt sign switched off which as per SOP is SCCM's instruction to disarm slides. The following is what happened next to the best of my knowledge:

Disarm doors command given to CC by SCCM
Jolt felt to plane from behind prompting SCCM to delay disarming of allocated door and to contact F/D
No response from F/D so SCCM follows SOP. No apparent need to evacuate so disarms own door.
Without prior warning plane then taxi's some distance with all doors disarmed, SLF in aisles, seatbelt signs still off and emergency exits blocked.On disembarking SCCM approaches F/D to find out what happened as she needs to file CSR due to breach of safety procedures etc.

Told by F/D no need to report anything :hmm: Is there??

[captjns]

When having to hold short of parking or on the apron, I make an announcement to the passengers. In short, I provide details of the importance of remaining seated until the seatbelt sign is switched off. I’ve had an occasion or two where a passenger thought they were more special than the rest, and took a tumble. In those cases where one was complaining of pain and discomfort, I pulled the CVR CB for the just in case factor, which proved to be a good thing. Statements from witness were taken as well, for the just in case factor… again proved to be a good thing.

Well, the usual ambulance chaser filed a suit on behalf of the injured passenger.


At the deposition the plaintiff was asked these basic questions.

Question - On the night of the XXth, were you on flight XXX from ABC to DEF?

Then transcipts from the CVR were distributed, and then the tape was played.

Question – Why did you not comply with the instructions from the captain and the cabin crew?

After the basic questions, and written statements were presented...case dropped.

And better, the plaintiff became a defendant when our company sued him to recover our legal expenses incurred from his law suit.

[MarkerInbound]

VC Pilot, now you know what some of us Colonials feel like reading some of the posts in the mother tongue.

[HAWK21M]

The Seat belt sign is on.The Pax is responsible for the injury encountered during that time.
The FA can only ask the Pax to follow rules.
regds
MEL.

[misterblue]

Sorry, Cornish Jack, I must be a bit dopey today.

Thought I'd heard about lots of train crashes, where they stop ever so suddenly, but clearly I'd just dreamed them...

MB

[HKPAX]

Historically speaking, wot allowed trains to travel faster and faster woz the capability of the brakes, not of the source of power. It took many accidents (and hundreds if not thousands of lost lives) for this fact to be recognized. At the risk of being accused of being a scioloist, in the course of normal operation A/C only have to brake (in any hurry that is) on the available length of the runway. I doubt if - light rail aside - any train could decelerate anything like as fast as a typical a/c being encouraged to take the first exit.

[Jofm5]

It took many accidents (and hundreds if not thousands of lost lives) for this fact to be recognized. At the risk of being accused of being a scioloist, in the course of normal operation A/C only have to brake (in any hurry that is) on the available length of the runway. I doubt if - light rail aside - any train could decelerate anything like as fast as a typical a/c being encouraged to take the first exit.

So the laws of physics apply to a train in a different manner to an airplane ?

[HKPAX]

The thrust of my observation (reverse thrust?) is that trains stop slower. Summat to do with available braking power : weight ratio maybe.

On the other hand I am not in any way disputing that passengers who ignore instructions to belt up have only themselves to blame.

[muduckace]

"So the laws of physics apply to a train in a different manner to an airplane ?"

No this argument is just silly for several reasons, trains v/s planes. Aircraft endure movements and forces during NORMAL OPERATION that trains simply do not. A rail is straighter and more level than a taxiway or runway and certainly AIR.

Trains accelerate,decelerate,climb,sink etc.etc at expected values. Never been on a train and experienced turbulance. I have certainly gotten jerked around in the cabin of an aircraft during taxi out in a freighter.

There are many more factors like the logistics of getting sardines seated.

[411A]

Passenger trains.
These were killing folks by the hundreds until one rather bright young man came alone and devised a rather clever solution to the problem.
His name was George Westinghouse.

On disembarking SCCM approaches F/D to find out what happened as she needs to file CSR due to breach of safety procedures etc.


Better she should have a quick discussion with FD and settle it privately, rather than going into print.

OTOH, an unlikely event, considering the attitudes of some SCCM's.:rolleyes:

[DownIn3Green]

Mud whatever...you're a non-rev...if I had to return to the gate for you or your yappy little pet...you're getting off...so much for your card...

As for PAX standing up while taxiing, outbound, not acceptable...

Inbound however...

While pulling into the gate if they're up clearing the overheads, despite warnings from the cabin crew and the cockpit, I have found that a "gentle" tap on the over-engineered braking system of the B-727 quickly seats the offending miscreants...either back in their seat or in the asile...

The thing to remember is, when the "early risers" are grabbing their stuff to be the "first off" they could fall on or drop their stuff on some innocent old lady, etc...

To answer your question...the Airline, while maybe not liable, will settle....

Mud...I'd love to have you and your dog on my Flt...(NOT)...Pass Priv's are just that...a perk of your job, not your personal right...think about that next time....

[TheKabaka]

The fact that the SCCM was talked out of a report speaks of a poor safety culture, open reporting of all incidents is vital to improve safety

Better she should have a quick discussion with FD and settle it privately, rather than going into print.

No it's not. If a report is filed an investigated the reason for the break in SOPs may be found and prevent it happening again or a change in SOPs may be in order.

The object is to improve safety not to lay the blame at anyones feet.

[MagnusP]

From an engineering POV, surely the different deceleration in normal operation of train v plane is that, while a train has the luxury of several miles of track in which to decelerate from 125mph , aircraft generally don't.
In abnormal situations, both can decelerate pretty impressively.

I wouldn't mind seeing figures on the deceleration of a taxiing aircraft compared to a modern bus in an emergency stop situation.

[Frankie_B]

You say it like we're discussing landing with unseated pax.

The sit down rule is sometimes carried to extreemes. We were waiting for our gate at FRA once, and the F/A confronted a man who got up to use a washroom...They let him go, eventually, and he came back before we even got moving again.

On another experience, one JetBlue crew was good for allowing the pax to use laptops and walk around during 1 hr taxi-out that JFK is known for...

I would say that letting pax unseated is okay if remaining taxi time exceeds 5 minutes, but then again, aircraft don't really have handrails! (or shall we wait for Ryanair?)

[PAPI-74]

Sit down quicker then..........:}

[MagnusP]

Frankie_B: No, sorry, not implying that at all. The deceleration on landing, especially if you're under pressure to get off the runway ASAP is perfectly understandable, and is probably of the same order as a bus emergency stop. I've been standing in the latter case, and wouldn't want to be in the former case.

What I was trying to get at is that in abnormal situations, SLF inertia is similar in both cases. We do our best to prevent air passengers from putting themselves in that position, but have bus systems in place which effectively force passengers into the same situation. Ironically enough, it's often on the bus from gate to aircraft.

[lowcostdolly]

411A and The Kabaka thank you for taking the time to refer to my post :). I was confused after reading this thread. We have Pilots lining up to criticise (rightly) the SLF who ignore just about every approach to get them to sit down on taxi but then apparently it's OK to taxi a plane with all of them in the aisles and the emergency exits disarmed on occasions :confused:. The ones that are permanently armed would have been blocked due to luggage, volume of pax etc.

I was not privy to the actual incident referred to in my post.... only the fall out personally on my friend most of which is not appropriate to disclose in a forum. It seems there are 2 schools of thourght here on the aviation questions though.

Firstly I think this incident should have been reported through the correct channels in order to improve flight safety just as Kabaka says. In fact from what I understand there were two issues here. The initial jolt to the plane and the impact it had in the cabin and the lack of communication between the F/D and the SCCM who tried to initiate this. Safety was compromised and the CSR was warranted. Thats what it states in our manual. However a CSR has to be supported/signed by the Capt who on this occasion would not do so. Why?? I think Kabana has hit the nail on the head.

Secondly there are the "private words". Excellent in their place :ok: I have on a few occasions had these with the F/D just as they frequently did with me when I was a newly promoted SCCM and didn't always get it right either!!

On this occasion a lot of people had "private words". The SCCM to the F/D on what to put on the obviously required CSR so as not to aportion blame. She was told not to file it at all at the time :hmm:

This incident was eventually reported as part of something else relating to the safety culture of the base. It was reported to a senior CC manager. Instead of reporting it to flight safety for immediate investigation a "private word" was had with the Base Captain and everything was covered up. In fact nothing was put on the safety data base at all by either of these two but apparently they had a written report :(:hmm:

What else happened I'm not going to say but it was not in the interests of improving safety at a major UK carrier. I'll bear that in mind next time I have a serious incident on my flight. Thanks for this thread Guys as it made me look at my practice now and for the future.

[Frankie_B]

MagnusP,

The busses have things to hold on to, whereas you'd have to be grabbing someone's head on an aircraft! :=

[Mephistopheles]

In our airline, on departure, we do not close the aircraft doors until all the pax are seated. As to taxing on arrival if the pax decide to do a "Die Hard" & make for the hat rack or doors before I turn the seat belt sign off it's their problem & they would not be able to claim anything from the airline or insurance. I must admit on certain flights i.e. Dhaka/Mumbai I tend to be a bit heavy on the brakes on the taxi in:)

[MagnusP]

Frankie_B: Indeed, and a good point. I'm certainly not defending those who think they have a right to stand during taxi; just pointing out that our various transport authorities have a somewhat inconsistent approach to passenger safety.

I'm not arguing any particular position, so I'll leave it at that. :ok:

[muduckace]

Mud whatever...you're a non-rev...if I had to return to the gate for you or your yappy little pet...you're getting off...so much for your card...


Would have been just fine, I would have filed a FSR on the airline and probably persued a civil suite...

I was not a non-rev, comprehension goes a long way. If I was I would have kept quiet, as I threatened FAR's they assumed I was.

They at the time they did the thing that benefited all most, you could learn from them, stay quiet and carry on with the flight.

[muduckace]

And what is up up with the taxi speeds in the midle east/asia. Did a few Haji tours and the general taxi speed seemed to be just under V1? I wondered if the whole "Insha'Allah" idealism was a factor?

[Mephistopheles]

muduckace, Airbus' reccommended taxi speed in ordr to reduce brake where in straight line is 30kts whereas on the Boeing it's 20kts. Might that be the difference?

[muduckace]

No, I refer to taxi speeds that I have seen on a ramp, not a taxiway. Many carriers clearly exceeded safe speeds on congested ramps. My post was in part intended for humor but performance/passenger comfort was clearly not a factor in the ramp taxi speeds I had observed.

It was like the wild wild west of aviation, yehawwh!!!

[DownIn3Green]

Mudface...are you even a pilot???

How have you "observed" taxi speeds on the ramp?

Ever heard a controller??? If you have, maybe the phrase "expidite taxi" would be familiar to you...

"Threaten" with the FAR's???...Give us all a break............

[muduckace]

My first instinct was to refrain from responding to your petty belittling post. A quick answer would be no,yes,yes...WTF.

OK prim Donna, I have taxied several airframes on several continents, Have plenty of time operating aircraft on the ground, spent 5 years as an unsung crew member (MX. Rep/ Flight Mechanic) giving me probably 2X the time in flight (as an observer and often an adviser), when you went to the hotel I continued on with an aircraft often spending 30-50 hours on duty. Just spent the last hour of my shift riding shotgun on the radios of an aircraft trying to replicate a chronic problem.

No break for you, the crew operating the aircraft became quickly submissive when I had identified their "at fault" position. I wish you were the PIC as I would have enjoyed the experience.

You obviously have a chip on your shoulder; I suggest you wash it down with a Mud Pie.

My current focus is as an Avionics tech. for the most part. All the above credentials that I have stated are not worth a damn as I unlike yourself understand I am only as good as my last action in this screwed up cooperate controlled world of aviation, no glory, just a paycheck and series of experiences.

Hope you enjoy down3green for the remainder of your career.

Apologies to the PPRUNE forum for my weakness in response to the above said baiter as I truly enjoy the lessons I have gained through interaction and my contributions (beside this one) that I hope to be insightfully, or the thought provoking posts I wish to enter.