Legality of Missed approach considerations

[40&80]

I was suprised to see how quickly the interesting thread on the "Correct missed approach path to be flown after a visual approach?" was closed.
It was evident that pilot opinions were varied as to the safe and legal aspects and this subject IMHO needed sorting.
Whilst I nolonger have to do missed approaches...being retired...I favoured the published missed approach as it should keep me clear of hitting anything and avoid any noise monitoring posts.
I often felt nice cooperative pilots were often Suckered into a visual by ATC and pilots would often violate the AIDS read out tape and cause passengers to become concerned trying to accommodate late ATC requests for runway changes.
Uk pilots especially ex military would happily accept a night visual if offered and sometimes request it...the results were sometimes a next day office visit...the "Black hole" night visual to Bahrain runway 12 has caused at least three aircraft to crash...it seemed such a waste of crews and passengers when the conditions were next to calm and the ILS localiser and glide path were fully servicable and available on 30.
Anyway something to think about and possibly discuss with the trainers.

[togaluck]

IF you are cleared for a visual approach, and go around, you are not legally permited to do any missed approach procedure, the correct procedure is to fly a visual pattern @ 1500' either left of right depending on what's published on the AIP for that runway. If you can't do that in the event of a go around, DO NOT accept the visual approach. You should continue on the instrument app procedure and fly the published missed.

[EGGW]

It was closed because the thread was about JFK, nothing to do with the Middle East!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EGGW

[EL CAPITAN]

And the 3 major Airlines in the ME fly to JFK, so everybody benefits from this interesting thread, getting valuable information from various sources so what"s the point closing it. Thanks for the clarification Kenny on the closed thread...The Capt..:ok:

[Rusty Bullet Hole]

Togaluck. I was once in a simulator session run by an ex Easyjet know it all Check Captain who is now in standards role in the Middle East and was failed because I was given an ILS onto one runway with a break to the right for a visual approach onto another runway about 40 degreees offset, Zurich from memory. He told me to go around just to see what I would do, so I asked for radar vectors and my ears are still ringing because he said I should have tracked back over and picked up the missed approach from the other runway. I asked an ATC tower controller some time later and of course it is the last thing they would want you to do because they could have cleared an aircraft for take off on this runway once they could see that you were tracking for the other runway visually.

[togaluck]

Well, it depends, if the clearance was a "clear for the ILS rwy XX, CIRCLE TO LAND rwy XY" then yes, that is the correct procedure to fly RWY XX missed appch, but if you are in the ILS for another runway and they clear you for the VISUAL XY, it's not the same.... you were right about it, even if you started the ILS rwy XX. You can trust you ATC friend, I mean, he should know right? as opposed to that know it all easyjet guy.

[Dixons Cider]

Once cleared for a visual approach, the instrument procedure is finished and no longer applicable. That applies to the missed approach also.

It really is that simple.

[wizard1]

Well ..... I started the thread and I am still a bit in the dark. I fly for a ME carrier hence the posting on this thread. The situation in JFK that we encounter on a daily basis is that we are cleared for a visual approach to 31L from radar vectors. the ILS is radiating but we are not cleared for an ils. I know for a fact that most crews brief and plan the GA based on the ILS GA.I dont think this is right. ATC does not offer instructons prior to GA. Maybe they would if queried.

Just wondered on your thoughts. I emphasise that this is going on EVERY DAY - hence the interest, and the fact that 2 guys just lost their jobs for a F$$$D UP GA. (A bit different I know but you get the drift)

All the best out there!!

[Wiley]

Seems to me you should ask Fleet or Training Dept for an official company line on this.

[Stone_cold]

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0704.html

[togaluck]

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#WV8c8ROBE

pretty much what it says is that ATC will give you or you should ask for alternate missed approach instructions.

in a real life scenario, if you go around they will immidiately give you vectors most likely rwy heading (in JFK) and reposition you for a second one.

if you want to play strictly by the book ... everytime they clear you for a visual you should ask them for missed app instructions.

[togaluck]

Another link explaining that ther is NO missed approach segment in a visual approach for a A/C on an IFR flight plan.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0704.html

[togaluck]

http://www.terps.com/ifrr/may98.pdf

[Wiley]

in a real life scenario, if you go around they will immidiately give you vectors most likely rwy heading (in JFK) and reposition you for a second one.That's exactly what happens. Tower will give you a heading and an altitude and then hand you back to Approach.

[Obbie]

As already stated,

Cleared to circle and cleared for a visual are not the same.

If cleared to circle - transition as best you can back onto the
missed approach procedure that belongs to your originally cleared
instrument approach.

If cleared for a visual - then you are to REMAIN visual, and fly a visual
pattern, either left or right, as appropriate for the airport.

Any North American tower, will have a new heading and altitude in
your lap before you even get the gear in the bay, if they don't want
you flying a pattern on a visual miss.

On a side note for all NY airports. If by some very bad luck you go
no comm on a visual miss in NY. Then you must fly a visual pattern.
Do not go any higher than 1500 AGL and keep the pattern as close
as possible to the runway. ATC will move all your conflicts.

[wizard1]

excellent-that clears it up.. I did ask fleet and training but I guess they are too busy firing people.
thanks for all the replys.

[777-200LR]

Ok guy/ ladies, for all of you who keep stating that "when cleared for a visual, then fly the missed approach with a visual pattern..." - What happens if you are base and turning final visually and you now find yourself in IMC conditions?

[trimotor]

Our company discourages visual approaches, though, in the event that you do a visual approach, we are required to establish what ATC want in the event of a go-around.

Simple.

[Wiley]

LR, I think most would say "...then WTF were you doing accepting a visual approach in such conditions?" If you're a pilot with the Middle East's largest airline who finds himself in such a situation after accepting a (gasp!) visual approach, you'd do well to call the wife immediately and have her get the maid to iron your best white shirt so you look your best for the tea and bikkies morning you'll be invited to upon arrival back at base.

Seriously? US ATC will give you an appropriate heading and altitude whatever the conditions, and if you find them unacceptable, tell them.

This debate and all the differing answers people have come up with might give some hint as to why management adhere to the KISS model and insist we fly an instrument approach when one is available.

[togaluck]

Are you SERIOUS??

do you HONESTLY think that ATC would clear you for an approach, if they in any way thought that you could not continue such app or go around and remain visual????
just for your info, there are parameters called "MINIMA" that ATC and pilots use to evaluate if a visual is safe and legal or not. (in the US is 3 statute miles visibility and 1000 ft ceiling).

I honestly think there is no such thing as a "dumb" question, really, but it's just common sense! I guess is the least common of all senses.
It just shocks me that a pilot flying a 777-200LR HEAVY WIDEBODY aircraft, would ask what to do if suddenly you encountered IMC.

But, IF you ever find yourself in that specific situation. (common sense)
TELL ATC!! I'm sure they would be happy to give you vectors and even give you a new clearence to shoot another approach in IMC.

Happy flying mate.

[Kenny]

LR,

One of the requirements, at least in the US, for the acceptance of a Visual Approach is that you can maintain VFR. The other 2 requirements are that you are within 30 miles of the destination airport and have either the airport or the preceding aircraft in sight.

If you don't feel confident about any of those conditions, don't accept a VA clearance. Sure, ATC in the US generally takes it for granted that arriving aircraft in CAVOK, will most likely do a visual approach but they're also aware that overseas carriers have different SOP's.

Maybe I've got a simple view about this but aircraft the size of a widebody are usually given a far longer final than say an RJ. So there should be adequate time to simply ask ATC, "For planning purposes, can you give us an idea of what Missed Approach instructions we might expect"?

[777-200LR]

I agree with all what you guys are saying. As you can see, I dont know much about visual approaches as my company forbid it. I can honestly tell you (apart from the training at flight school), I probably have flown maybe 3 visual approaches on a jet in all my career.

Loosing a runway visually can happen very easily regardless of ATC. I have seen ATC in places like Egypt clear aircraft for a visual approach during +RN and the aircraft requesting it was more than 30 NM away from the airport. So unlike the US ATCs (that do use common sense), alot of ATC controllers are more than happy to clear you for a visual approach just to switch you over to the tower freq.

LR

[Wiley]

In that case, you simply refuse to accept the visual approach, LR. Air Traffic Control is a misnomer - it's a service, with you the customer, and it's up to you in situations like that to demand the service from them that you require.

Re the number of visual approaches you've (not) done: I hope the new 'hands on' sim. session Training Dept have planned for the near future will at least partially address that. Use that to practise as many as you can fit in, for you might need to do one in anger one day, when getting it right might prove to be quite literally the difference between life and death for you and the people you're carrying.

Unlikely, I hear some say? So was the possibility of a flock of geese taking out both engines of an A320 as it climbed through 3,000' out of LGA. Imagine the situation if the pilot of the A320 had only done two or three visual approaches in his airline career, which, thanks to the "maximum use of automation at all times" policy (which I think your airline practises) is becoming a real possibility over the next few years.

[haunted dog]

Hi Gents,


reading this thread - I have some questions, too:


- what kind of missed approach do you fly when you are cleared for it but you experience a radio comm fail.


- ... swing over to the parallel Rwy, after executing an ILS (I think this is a visual, too)

- and most important: what is visual approach good for ( Pilot and ATC wise)?


cheers

[togaluck]

Visual app benefits:

Pilots:
in most cases saves fuel, since you don't have to do an full instrument app expedites and simplyfies the process.

ATC: Expedites and Simplyfies the flow of traffic, and they give pilots the responsibilities of traffic separation and ground clearence.

IF you experienc radio comm failure on a sidestep manouvre (ie. JFK) you have to follow the missed app of the rwy you shot the app just as if were a circle to land app.

on a visual app you execute a pattern traffic @ 1500 ft (high performance A/C as opposed to 1000 ft for non high perf) and expect light gun sgnals from the tower.

of course you would squak 7600 and they would know you have lost your radios.

If its before any clearence for an app to any rwy IFR procedures apply.
you are cleared for any approach at the airport and you should adjust your ETA acording to your filed flight plan to within 3 minutes, even if this involves holding at the IAF.

If you have recieved a clearance or an "expect" any app, you should fly that one at your destination airport.

[poina]

Hello Ladies and Gents,
Not that I give a sh#t about being a long time check airman, I quit doing visuals long ago and while I can't tell someone not to do them, 1 screwup, descent below gs or vasi papi, and it was a failure. To allow ATC to take a coffee break, to allow yourself a higher percentage of unstabilized apps during configuration and speed changes is not the best way of doing things IMHO.