Gnat alternatives

[Dr Jekyll]

Since Folland developed the Gnat as a private venture, what might the RAF would have used as an advanced trainer had it not existed?

[Brewster Buffalo]

...hunter...swift :eek:.....lightning :D

[BEagle]

Hunter T Mk 7






.

[midnight retired]

To fit the requirements for a Training aircraft the Swift ,bless it , was a tad dubious and the Ligtning a bit too much of a handful so the natural choice has to be the Hunter,and to I concur with Beagles choice of the T7 varient.

[canard68]

Was the T38 flying and available then?

[Dr Jekyll]

I did wonder about the Hunter T7 because I read somewhere that it was used for students who couldn't fit into the Gnat. But that raises the question of why buy the Gnat at all considering that the RAF was operating plenty of Hunters already.

[BOAC]

There was a period when some of the AFTS students at Valley went through on the Hunter with the others on the Gnat. I suspect there was an element of 'support' in the purchase of the Gnat, although it certainly was an excellent trainer and the instrumentation made it a 'natural' for those progressing to the current front-line fighter, the Lightning, whereas the Hunter was then still equipped only with the basic 'older' panel.

[newt]

Why buy the Gnat?

Possibly to keep Folland in business or maybe they were cheap! I'm just glad they did. The view from the cockpit was much better than in the T7 and the instructor was in the back!! Always a bonus in those days!

It was a delight to fly with great avionics for its day!

A Tac dive to point Alpha made life easy but low level down the A5 pass was more fun!!!!

Those were the days!!!

[Lightning Mate]

Plus OR946 instrument fit, which helped a lot at the Lightning OCU.

As to why the RAF acquired it, if my memory serves me correctly, did not a certain officer of air rank become a director of Folland upon retirement?

Oh, and that tailplane in follow-up.....

STUPER - never to be forgotten!

Yep Newt - those were the days.

[Fitter2]

Almost on topic - talked to an ex-Tornado pilot who had no problem with flapless approaches on the Tornado conversion course, because he had done his fast jet course on exchange in the US on the T38 and the attitude was almost identical.

Expressed a preference for the T38 over the Hawk as a 'fun' aircraft, but then every pilot prefers his own type.

[Dr Jekyll]

Mmmm, there was talk of replacing the Gnat with the Jaguar T2 at one point. Either Jaguars or T38's would have looked good in the Red Arrows.

[HZ123]

Off topic; The two Gnats (N weald) at the Southend airshow this weekend did a great display and still cut a dash.

[lightningmate]

Jaguar was most definitely procured as the Advanced FJ Flying Training aircraft. Thankfully for many I suspect, it was realised the aircraft had a few foibles not really compatible with such a role, eg:

Handling deficiencies.
Poor SE performance.
Unreliable and ergonomically unsafe NAVWASS.
Wheel brakes that when used conventionally generated sufficient heat to blow the fusible plugs in the wheels.
Unable to be used to demonstrate swept wing stalling or spinning - T2 unrecoverable from a spin without an anti-spin chute!
Fuel system emergencies that confused everyone - this led to a land immediately instruction being extant for some time in the event of any fuel emergency.

The French were even more daring and ordered a navalised version to embark. An intent dropped 'plus vite' when single engine bolter performance was assessed.

As for the Reds using it - it required many thousands of feet to loop even a clean aircraft.

lm

[Lightning Mate]

......Fuel system emergencies that confused everyone....

I'll drink to that!!!!

Open N1/N2 etc.

[2 TWU]

Lightning Mate

I know my brains has become addled over the years but wasn't it:-

STUPRE, Not STUPER

Speed
Trim
Unclock
Power
Raise the Guard
Exhaust

I seem to remember there was a 'C' at the end but can't for the life in me remember what it stands for.

I'll now retreat behind the bar to shelter from the incoming.

[Lightning Mate]

2 TWU

No incoming - I stand corrected, you are right.
WTFO Unclock? Did you mean unlock?

LM

[2 TWU]

LM

That will probably explain why I never got the drill correct in the aircraft!

[BEagle]

It was STUPRECCC by the time I got to 4FTS!

S - Speed below 400/.85
T - Trim to the feel trim safe/ideal sector
U - Unlock the elevators
P - Power cock (hydraulic) OFF
R - Raise the standby trim switch guard
E - Exhaust the aileron and tailplane accumulators
C - Check standby trim response
C - Changeover (Mod 399) switches as required (transferred standby trim to the stick top switches)
C - Check standby trim using Mod 399s

And CUBSTUNT following AC/DC fail?

C - Cabin altimeter cock to 'static'
U - Standby UHF ON
B - Boost pump OFF
S - Speed below 300/.7
T - Trim load free
U - Unlock the elevators
N - Non essential electrics OFF
T - Transponder to 7700

Any errors / corrections gratefully received - it's 34 years since I last flew a Gnat! And I was cr@p, but the instructors were top chaps!

[NutherA2]

but the instructors were top chaps!

Thanks for that, Beags!:ok::ok::ok:

[Lightning Mate]

Blimey BEagle!

It seems it was all getting too complex by 1975.
CUBSTUNT - could well get that in the wrong order if your mind strayed from one job to another......:=

I flew the G-Nat in 1967, which shows my age....BOF:zzz:

2 TWU

When were you at Vachly then, and what did you move on to?:ok:

Orrabest to all,
LM

[Bigt]

Gnat alternatives = HAI Ajeet

[27mm]

Hello Chaps,

I remember STUPRECC and CUBSTUN (though IIRC, the speed envelope was <400/.85M). Also that chubby-thighed QFIs in goon-suits had problems getting full aileron on. I also remember a certain Flt Cdr who carried a Nav Ruler in his calf pocket, with which he used to poke unwary studes in the back of the head. Do any of you Chaps recall that the current CDS was a Creamie Gnat QFI as a Fg Off back then?

[tornadoken]

FG Miles M.100 Student.
W.E.W.Petter left EE in February,1950 to be MD at Folland, which was then in GW, and subbing DH wings (Vampire, Dove, Chipmunk). He was able to fund Midge as expendable (he said, affordable) Stuka - US DoD later took the idea up for its poorer Allies as Northrop F-5, adapted 1959 as USAF Advanced trainer T-38. MoS funded Folland for 6 Gnat F.1, similarly for Allies, to be sold to Yugoslavia, Finland and India (Ajeet). In 1957 RAF's all-through Jet Provost notion, replacing Provost+Vampire T.11, had already become dubious, and tenders were invited for an affordable mount above JP, below OCU type (Hunter T.7, Javelin T.3, Lightning T.4). Miles, working from a shed, and Folland bid; Folland won, with an order for 14 Development Batch in 1958. MoS' policy was industry "coalescence". Folland sold out to HSAL, September,1959; Petter fled to a Swiss hermitage; in 1960 orders, in all to 105, did flow. T-38 would have involved scarce $. Hunters were being converted to FGA.9/FR.10, RN T.8/GA.11, and export.


Care to translate that dog's breakfast into human understandable information?

[BEagle]

With the tailplane still powered hydraulically, I'm sure that with the elevators unlocked (click, click, white band, ELEV caption), there was a 300/M0.7 flutter limit? Whereas for a hyd fail, the tailplane was moved electrically and 400/M0.85 was the limit for unlock.

We'll be on to the joys of Cam K, Q-gearing, Datum Shift and Scissor Restrictors next.

Not to mention Fuse 13!

[NutherA2]

We'll be on to the joys of Cam K

During the CFS Course I asked why Cam K was so named & was told that Cams A to J didn't work. I know memory fades with encroaching senility, but IIRC the limiting IAS for flying in follow up was the same 400k as for unlocking the elevator in the STUPRE, STUPREC, STUPRECC drill.

Mnemonic creep as aircraft were progressively modified might make an interesting thread on its own account; in the early days on the Javelin a traditional TAFFIOH sufficed pre-take-off, but towards the end of the Mark 9 it had expanded to something I can't recall (a forgettable Mnemonic!). It was something like TAFFIGWROSHHH, I wonder whether anyone can remember what it was?:confused::confused:

[Lightning Mate]

"Do any of you Chaps recall that the current CDS was a Creamie Gnat QFI as a Fg Off back then?"

....and what does cream do after a while? It curdles, goes off and smells...

Under desk go! Anti-flak armed, incoming.....

LM (A2)

[newt]

Far too much QFI speak on this thread!!

Just shout "HASELL" and pull up into a loop!!!

Flack jacket on and off to the river!

[BOAC]

Just shout "HASELL" and pull up into a loop!!! - sounds as if you knew the one-eared M Pilot Jacko?

[Dick Whittingham]

Personally, I thought the Gnat was an excelent swept wing advanced trainer. The Hunter was just too nice - like a big jet Provost. The Gnat, on the other hand, had to be flown and landed with carefull regard to high drag and adverse yaw at high angles of attack. It was difficult to fly accurately straight and level, but when you got dug in with some G it settled down nicely.

And the instrument fit was super. Just what was needed to bring IF standards in the fast jet world up to some level of competence.

Dick

[Centreline747]

All sounds very fascinating, but just curious, was it awkward ground handling, ie TO and LDG with such a narrow main-gear track?

[Lightning Mate]

Far too much QFI speak on this thread!!

....and just where would you be without your Mother & QFIs.....?

Smoke off, go.

[27mm]

Let's not forget also the natty (sorry!) little brake chute on the Gnat - about the size of an average tablecloth, but still good training stuff for those destined for fats jets with 'em.

[BEagle]

During the CFS Course I asked why Cam K was so named & was told that Cams A to J didn't work.

:rolleyes:

I thought that it was Output value = K x Input value , where K varies with control column deflexion angle as determined by the cam.

Whatever, it was a clever idea, but still a mite too sensitive at small deflexions for clumsy Bloggs such as me - until you got used to it. Although once when I flew a TACAN dive with 1 notch of flap by mistake, the whole aircraft felt much more pitch stable. Didn't the Reds use to fly it in that configuration?

[kluge]

Did the "Fuse 13" comment have anything to do with the removal of it causing an unexplained increase in roll rate?

And because the real reason for the increase in roll rate was never found it was decided not to remove the fuse. But with the “cat out of the bag” illicit action was that fuses were then purposely blown, reinserted into their holders and quietly ignored?

Please correct if mistaken.
:)

[Flying Lawyer]

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/72761-gnat-roll-rate-fuse.html

[kluge]

Excellent read FL - reading again and studying it - truly wonderful.

BEagle thanks for the posts in 2002 especially posts #20 and #23.
Excellent insights,

Jeez - I'll convert from gas.

[BOAC]

Didn't the Reds use to fly it in that configuration? - yes - I cannot rcall if there was any IAS/M limit

[Wander00]

I remembered this episode after seeing the earlier reference to Jacko .....

My mate (and adjacent service number) Iain A-R, sadly no longer with us, was rostered to fly his JP Final Nav Test with said M Plt, who was either on the other Squadron or in Standards.. "Show us your map, Lad", said J, and took Iain's absolutely immaculately prepared map, Hmmed, and gave Iain the dog-eared ditto from his flying suit pocket. "Fly it on that, Lad" he said. "Why?", said Iain. "Your Dad (then also a QFI at, I think, Feltwell) bollocked me for being late for Pay parade in 1948" said Jacko.

Iain flew the Nav Test very well (as he did most things) and they returned to the crew room. "Want to know how you did, Lad?" asked the One Eared M Plt - "Bloody well - 90%+) as I recall. And they went their separate ways.