Shopping Around JAAland

[Exposure Time]

I thought you ‘guys’ may like to know about a company in Romania, SAS Helicopters who run AS365N JAA type ratings courses. I’ve just come back and I can honestly say it was a good course. Romania, has come a long way from the Ceauşescu days and appalling orphanages since joining the EU and JAA.
JAA amendment 6 states that multi engine turbine (MET) to MET can be done in 3 hours plus the skill test (not the first type, which is 8 hours). I did it in 7 hours with the IR element.
The ground school was a series of power point presentations followed by trips to the hanger with engineers (ex Nicolae Ceauşescu’s).
The flights were all pre and post briefed and the examiner was the RCAA head man who was friendly and helpful, although it wasn’t a walk in the park.
They charge 1,800 Euros per hour including taxes, which is about the same as a twin squirrel in ROB (rip off Britain).
Let’s just shop around JAAland

[helicopter-redeye]

Is this the company Dragon are using now for their IR course?

[thecontroller]

1800 euros is 1500 uk pounds. You can get a twin squirrel in the UK for about 1,000 pounds per hour

[Exposure Time]

I’m very sorry, I didn’t mean to mislead. One can indeed find a 355 around 1,000 GBP; Severn Aviation charge 1300 + vat = 1,527 (that’s vat at 17.5%) GBP for a 355 type rating course. I just thought it was a very good price and an excellent course. I knew there was a reason why I didn’t use this site!

[thecontroller]

£1,300 plus VAT!

That's insane. It was about £1,000 + VAT per hour for an IFR AS355 last year (in the South East UK)

[Exposure Time]

It there anybody who would like or needs to do an MCC?
I need a ‘buddy’ for an MCC/IFR course. The course costs 2,000 GBP and will consist of:
25 hours ground school
20 hours in a A109 FNPT 2 MCC/IFR sim made up of 10 hour as PF and 10 hours PNF

[thecontroller]

Just out of curiousty, why are you needing to do an MCC course? Offshore employers will give you one when you start working for them.

[Torquetalk]

The price quoted was for an AS365 but was then mis-read as AS355. Who got it wrong and who didn't notice? Maybe you should go on the MCC course together. :E

TT

[GroundhogDK]

Dolphin = £1500
Squirrel = £1000
MCC/IFR = £2000

This thread = priceless. :}

[902Jon]

Offshore employers will give you one when you start working for them.

CHC will not. Can't speak for Bristow/Bond though.

[Exposure Time]

You are right the Offshore companies generally do an MCC as part of the type rating. However, I already have a type rating. The ‘bean counters’ have frozen recruitment, so I thought, if I present myself with the type rating, the MCC and the ‘dunker’ course I’m ready for their induction and the line training. I’m ready to go. Yes, it maybe flawed logic, but I’m not going to just sit back and wait until the oil price goes up and hope, although, hope does burn eternal, I understand!

[212man]

You don't need an MCC certificate - why do you think you do? An operator will not view a generic MCC course certificate with any enthusiam, all the more so if done in a fixed wing STD. It won't be worth the paper it's written on, let alone 2000 pounds!

If you get a job flying 365s offshore you'll get the multi-crew time that will exempt you from requiring the MCC when you come to do an MPH type rating. In any case, if you do the MPH type rating with your employer, it will almost certainly contain the MCC elements within it.

[thecontroller]

I agree. An MCC is proabably a waste of money for you. Especially if you have low-ish hours/no significant multi hours. Unless you have money to burn that is...

[Exposure Time]

The UK is operating under FCL2 amendment 3, where there is the provision to include the MCC elements in company type ratings in a MPH and or company line training. As the UK is not the epicenter of the JAA universe, there are other countries who conform to amendment 6, where there is the requirement for a MCC certificate (not flown on a fixed wing STD), along with company based MCC line training.

[332mistress]

ET

I applaud your optimism that getting a type rating, MCC and dunker will put you at the top of the queue.

Unfortunately without any offshore experience you may not be as far ahead as you hoped. There is a downturn in the helicopter market in general and I know of several ex offshore pilots, who have lost or had their jobs reduced to part time, in the corporate sector who have all the qualifications to fly offshore who can't get a job as a contractor with the major companies.

I wish you all the best in your search for a job.

332M

[Exposure Time]

Dear 332m,

(if that’s not too patronizing)

The down turn can’t last forever, we have huge economies like China India and others demanding oil. Nobody, seems to know when the recruitment freeze will begin to thaw, but it will. As you say, the ‘big boys’ are off loading pilots, who subsequently, contract down to the smaller offshore companies. There is natural wastage, of course and those positions will be taken up by the contractors. However, there is only a finite number.

Anyway, I thank you for your kind words and I’ll share a glass of beer with you in the optimistic future…...that’ll be the half full glass not the half empty one!

ET

[GroundhogDK]

Dear ET,

I tried searching for "SAS helicopters Romania" on the Interweb, but google doesn't like me. Do they have a website?

GH

[Exposure Time]

Hi GH,

SAS Helicopters’ web address is helicopters.ro The web site looks like it was designed by a ‘techie’ who should get out more.

ET

[HillerBee]

I don't read Romanian 'that well' but it looks like they're offering an integrated ATPL(H) for €45.000!!!!!!

[GroundhogDK]

I don't see that anywhere... I see a ATP(A) for €45.000 and a CPL(H) for €37.500. Very cheap for a JAA CPL(H), IMO.

Oh btw. their CPL(H)IR is a staggering €165.000 *faints*

[thecontroller]

How highly regarded would a Romainian-taught IR be in the industry? And don't forget flights, hotels, food, transport, insurance costs.

[GroundhogDK]

thecontroller,

A Romanian IR is just as good a license as one issued by another JAA member country. The same standard of experience requirements, training, evaluation and syllabus apply to all JAA member states.

[thecontroller]

I'm sure it is. But how will employers view it? Here in the UK you know the predjudice/sniffy comments etc people get, when they say they have been flying/working/training abroad...

[GroundhogDK]

Sure prejudice rears it ugly head everywhere, not just in aviation. I refuse to believe that operators will not value actual skill, commitment and personality over any such trivial matter. Should they not, I wouldn't want to work there anyway.

[HillerBee]

If you do the IR in another country, the IR will still be on your UK license, (or whatever issuing country)

[Exposure Time]

Yes, you are right JAA is JAA. I have a license issued from across the water. I started with an FAA CPL(H) and under JAA, if you have an ICAO CPL(H), you are exempt from the 30 hours CPL course (35 hours if you don‘t have a night rating). The amount of time required pre skill test, is at the discretion of the head of training of the flight school.

However, Mr. UKCAA said, he wanted to see a minimum of 10 + hours before the skill test. So, I shopped around and went to a flight school in Ireland. Again, it wasn’t a ’walk in the park’.

I took the paperwork to the IAA (I also had to have a class 1 Medical issued in Ireland) and they said, go and have a cup of coffee around the corner and come back in half an hour. When I returned, the license was waiting for me….that’s a JAA license.

The waiting time with the UKCAA was between 5 to 7 weeks at that time! I must say, I found the IAA to be very helpful indeed, if you call, flight crew licensing a human answers and helps you. They find ways of ‘doing it’ not reasons not to and it’s all within the JAA regulations. They know what they are talking about, instead of the UKCAA… speak to 3 different people and get 3 different interpretations…. “you are held in a queue and you are number 99.….very frustrating.

I called the IAA and asked them about an Romania type rating (the prejudice thing) They said, Romania is member of JAA and compiles with amendment 6 as they do. All they need is, the course completion certificate, the examiner authority and a copy of the schools TRTO certificate. Which is exactly want any JAA member requires.

All JAA members are audited by JAA or shall we say, EASA now, and have to comply with whatever amendment they have signed up to.

Incidentally, the cheapest AS365 type rating I could find in the UK JAAland (of those who could be bothered) was 23K, plus vat of course!

[GroundhogDK]

IAA you say. Any schools in Ireland you would recommend? About Romania, the insane price of EUR 165.000 for a CPL(H)IR must be that the don't use a sim for the IR part and do 55 hours flying on the AS365.

Btw. What is the difference between the EC155 and the AS365? They look identical. Is the EC155 glass cockpit and AS365 analogue gauges? will an AS365 TR also count as proficiency in EC155?