Rosters at EK

[broad sword]

Gents,

I've seen a lot of email’s stating they have a manual insertion on their roster.
How do you tell if it is a manual insertion?
Is there some roster code or is it just because it's a flight in the middle of days off.

I can’t tell for sure just by looking at my roster.

[fatbus]

I had a good laugh , thanks

[White Knight]

Conspiracy theories and all that..... Is it manual insertion or do people just not bid too well:hmm:

[alwayzinit]

Just got a belter...........

Wrong a/c then DH back!:ugh:

I love working for Professionals!

[BigGeordie]

I've had a couple of those- I think it is because they can't show two aircraft types on one pairing. The DH bit will be correct and you will be operating the other sector. I only found this out by e-mailing pre-ops because it confused the heck out of me. Easily done mind, especially after (another) night turnaround.

[PositiveRate876]

The obvious manual insertions are when your roster gets emailed to you, and the same day you call Evita and have a roster change.

If they have done the insertion before emailing you the roster, it's harder to proove your case. However, with my style of bidding it's easy, as I rank all the trips in teh system. If I get a trip that's on the bottom of the list, especially at the top 3 months, then it's obvious that the trip was not assigned by the computer.

[pool]

It's the 24th and no rosters.
Why? There's plenty of drivers.
Guess they figure " ... ahaaaa, you boys complain about the wonderful and cosy-quiet J-sets for inflight rest!! Let us show you who's in the driver seat and we'll just put ten more jingles to f..k up your december rosters to spoil your alls x-mas. This might take a day or two but will give us a big laugh ... "

Let's see

[QNH1013]

Perhaps too many 'preferential treatment' manual changes to be done to the fair automated roster before they publish it. It's December after all.

Im still hoping it's out by today.

[5star]

Maybe one guy did an insertion too much and the system gave up... now what to do next? We all know nobody up there has the brainpower to make it work again.

Can anyone access the EY portal and check if there are no EK rosters out there? :E

Aaah... at least this national ID card thing is running smoothly...:ugh:

[PositiveRate876]

Since the bids closed late (due to real or imagined problem) then they will come out late.

I didn't expect to see it today.

[Dirigible]

If you look at individual flights then the crews are all assigned already. I was able to find out what I am doing Xmas by doing this. If the roster is therefore out, then I can only assume it is being witheld from publishing to enable manipulation....cynical perhaps, but why else.....

[PositiveRate876]

So you actually went through all of the flights to see if you're on one of them? Wow. Please tell you you're on the 310. :eek:

[Dirigible]

I actually got what I bid for on Xmas day, so it took all of 2 mins to check. Nice when it works out......hope that all can enjoy a Merry Xmas wherever they are...the rosters are now out btw, just received in my inbox.

[ZQN]

Top bid - requested 25th off - manual insertion - working - p*ssed off!

[Fart Master]

Why is it that they can e-mail your roster to you but the portal doesn't have them??????????

[tornspar]

Mines not on the portal or in the inbox??????????? @1710pm

[BYMONEK]

ZQN

How do you know it's a manual insertion? I would have thought that bidding correctly in top bid group for a day off should be an automatic gimme. :confused:

Agree about rosters. Disgrace is putting it mildly for such an important month. I wonder how many of our managers will be working a full day on Thursday 25th?

[Ed's Talking Horse]

My boss says he is is off on the 25th, the ahole. They have apparently been busy screwing up everyones rosters, with a few amendments and laughing their collective asses off

The Talking Horse

[tornspar]

So did you boys get your rosters?????

[Fart Master]

Just Press 2

[Austin Holed]

At least you have rosters, bad or not. Still nothing for the Boeing, email or otherwise. :mad:

[PositiveRate876]

Top bid - requested 25th off - manual insertion - working - p*ssed off!


Bottom Bid - did NOT request 25th off - got it. :ok:

[DeweyCheatemAndHowe]

The bidding system works as planned then.

[PositiveRate876]

Roster Lady...
http://members.lotterypost.com/todd/images/news/2008030501.jpg

[bluepacific]

Does she do the rosters ? :}

[Cyberbird]

Well- it's past eight pm in the evening, and i would like to tell my missus, what we might expect over X-mas ..... :confused:

But - nada-, Njet, nein, No, nicht, kaputt !!

My Portal is as empty as my INBOX :{

I'm Top Bid and bidded for MLA - i'm Sure, i end up doing 500 flights to subcontinet - after manual "fiddling" with the rosters

Divide & impera ! ... that's how the rulers (2 Consuls ??/sorry - being a merley acceptable CLASS 4 English speaker only/ unless at wartimes) run ancient Rome - and it's apperantly not much difference int the "leader-style" :yuk:LoL - in the sandpit in the 21. century

[baob2oba]

CPM, CSM, scheduling my @**!

[southflyer]

Oh dear.... just stop the whining and call in sick.... emergency over!

[woodja51]

agree with the last post - just count forward 7 days IAW the FOM stating rosters should be out seven days before the end of the month and start working then... '2 is the loneliest number '.... as the song goes!!:ok:

But do think they need to address the Xmas concerns for those that don't get it... but that might require some management effort - which I see has currently been re-directed ( and wasted) trying to sort out the F!@#$%@$% stupid ID card S!@#$%TT.

Spinning Wheels again!
woodj

[Austin Holed]

Late rosters...

If I am going to be late for an appointment or perhaps a meeting with friends, then I will call ahead and notify them. I will also apologise upon arrival for the delay. I was taught these basic common courtesies as a young child and hopefully I have passed on the same to my own children. Also, I have been subject to many years of being told how important communication is in the workplace, particularly between management and staff.

How is that I, a simple line pilot, can remember these rules of polite civilised behaviour, yet they seem to elude our supposed superiors?


How hard would it be to send out an email along the lines of "Sorry everyone, we are having trouble producing some of the rosters, we'll get them out as soon as we can" Is it that dreaded fear of losing face or heavens forbid - admitting a mistake? Instead we receive what I would term "an arrogant silence"

Reading the above, I realise I am an old fart who has turned into my dad - but at least he was polite and treated people with respect.

[nolimitholdem]

Well said. I just hope any prospective joiners realize what a one-way street this place is. There is no give and take, only take.

12 Noon on the 25th and no Boeing rosters, either email or portal. I don't know what is more of a disgrace, the lack of rosters or lack of communication.

**** bucket: officially full.

[lowstandard]

2 things...

1. Thats actually a picture Capt E in his office with his manual insertion devices

2. Ace hardware is having a **** bucket sale. 50% more volume to last for the next few years. Special EPC rate, stock up now, you may need 2!

[lowstandard]

lets zee..vhat to do today?

straighten zee penzz, polish mine shoez, look at zee naughty frau pictures.
vhats zis jolly red buttons flashing in mine kopf? sheet zee roster launch botton...but how do i miss zis for many days..shisa!

I shall push zis and run away, hopefuully no ones knows. now enjoy zee
X -mas roster beetches. I shall blame zis on zee ADTTADTHDCPB.

[Wordsworth]

Evening guys,

I would really appreciate if someone could clear up the policy on roster swaps in EK. I know what the F.O.M says but every person I fly with has got a different interpretation and story of what happened to him/her or a friend etc etc. Does anyone know the facts (if thats possible here :)?

Many thanks,

Over and Out

:ok:

[Schnowzer]

The company has a very effective roster swapping system to ensure all pilots get the flying they want, run by the special CSDs (Crew Shafting Department).

Yep, roster swaps are allowed that suit the company at any time. Simple examples include 7 double back to back Dohas instead of a Melbourne, forget a nice cushy flight to London at 9 am why not try the Dakar leaving at 0045 with a 3 week lay-over in a tent.

So that individual pilots do not feel disadvantaged, they can have the pick of the available swaps to India every 29th February.

Hope that helps!

Schnowzer

P.S. Ok the real skinny is one crew initiated mutual swap/month but the credit doesn't change hands. It used to be unlimited and this is still the case if the company needs something from you and your negotiating skills are up to scratch. So you will never get a consistent view:ugh:

[etops777]

What pilots have done in the past was swap over a swap and this is what they don't want.

So we can swap as many times as we like provided we don't swap a trip then swap it again to the 3rd pilot.

[allaru]

What a surprise to see that Im rostered for 90 hours this month.

The 6000 dhs Im losing I can live with, but the reduction in days off is totally un realistic.

If this continues I will be leaving at the first opportunity.

Treat your pilots like jinglies in a garment factory and what you'll end up with....is another Gulf Air 72.

[Wiley]

Anyone like to run a book on how long it will be before we have a both asleep at the wheel incident?

[kotakota]

I expect this is an EK forum ?
Can you please explain in v short terms what you mean .?
90 hours is a lot of flying , why are you losing 6k over it ?
Or is it 90 hours duty only ?

[BigGeordie]

Allaru, I don't want to let the facts get in the way of a good rant, but the changes in overtime only come into effect on 1st April (oh, the irony) so you aren't loosing 6,000Dhs.

When you get your April roster get back to us, because then I suspect you will have a point.

Kotakota, yes this is an EK thing- the powers that be have unilaterally decided we are getting too much overtime pay so they have raised the overtime threshold so much it is almost unattainable. Flying a 90 hour month in April will result in several thousand Dhs less in your paypacket than flying the same roster in March.

[kotakota]

Thanks SNAM , understood now.

[allaru]

thanks for the info, maybe I should actually read the letters next time instead of turfing them in the bin.

As I said the money although an issue, is not the main issue, the 92 hours will be.

And for those of you who think...oh I don't get overtime now anyway so what the hell, or I never do 92 hours anyway, or if they fly me 92 hours Ill run out of hours and have days off.. think again what your seeing now is the prelude to 1000 hrs a year, which is just around the corner.

And when you hit your 1000hrs you'll be in doing sim supports and the like. (the precedence for this has already been set)

365-42 (leave) = 323

1000/323 = 3.095 hours per day in remaining days available to fly

30 day month based on above 92.85 hours, prob average at 92 for each month but Im too tired to work it out...


Lets see what happens...

[Marooned]

On the negative side:

Lifestyle, for what is was worth in the first place, will decrease as will the pay.

On the positive side:

Health & safety issues will increase.

2 +ves, 2 -ves so in management terms cost neutral. FUEK

[casio man]

Hang tight Allaru, with so many guys on AD, i suspect you will not get over 75...Wasn't that one of the reasons to get the AD thing on board, stop paying overtime.

Why they could not have levelled it out with the original roster is my wonder.:ugh:

[Visual Procedures]

Allaru,

Yawn :rolleyes:

Instead of whinging on Pprune, do us all a favour; learn to bid and stop blaming your bidding incompetency on new company policy. :ugh:

[allaru]

visual procedures,

I see you were right, complete incompetence (incompetency) on my behalf, as I asked a number of colleagues and indeed it appears as though everyone is getting exactly what they bid for except me.

Further more I found the button that allows me to choose how many hours I want to fly each month. I've chosen 50 hours for my next bid cycle to give me a bit of a rest, and spend some time with the family.

Thank you..

[Tower Ranger]

Excuse my ignorance but how many days do you actually work each month to reach 90 hours?

[Instant Hooligan]

Tower,
If you're not a pilot that's 90 hours of flying, not duty or time away from family when we are away from home in a hotel. Also, while some overnights away are very pleasant equally there are some that just aren't vey nice. We do a lot more than 90 hours of work time to achieve 90 hours of flying.

[tbaylx]

How many days ork 90 hours is equal too depends on what type of flying you are doing...doing short haul turnarounds you'd likely have to work every day of the month to get that...typically it would be between 8-12 days off now a month and over 300 hours away from homebase.

It's the times zones and back of the clock flying that wears you out. No way you can sustain a long haul multiple time zone type of lfying at 8 days off a month..you simply need 12-15 at least to recover.

[Kamelchaser]

I have 88 hours rostered this month. I'm just waiting for a flight to be taken off me so it slips under the productivity threshold. (Standing by for another AD:ugh:)

Why with such an advanced rostering system would I get 88hrs when they don't want to pay productivity..the conspiracy theorist in me says its a dry run for just that sort of roster when the new rules kick in april.

[Tower Ranger]

Thanks for the replies guys. I just fly a desk in DXB Tower so I get home at the end of every shift. We work about 150 hrs pcm and have 12 days off 3 of which are sleep days following night shifts.
If you don`t get your share of long haul duties you must be working pretty hard each month to get the hours on short haul!!

[Chewthecrude]

This one is easy! Anyone got a good roster this month or last? Mine is shocking to say the least & potentially dangerous (unless you sleep less than 3 hours a night/day)!:confused:

[what_goes_up]

Can't complain really (for once :rolleyes:). May 15 days OFF, June 12 days Off plus 5 days of leave. Only 2 nasty night turns in June.

[Antman]

I'm top bid and got exactly what I bid for including days off:ok:

[Saltaire]

I guess this might not be the month to complain....June is a great roster for me as well. The short fall on the productivity pay, now that's :mad:

[You rock]

3 long hauls and 20 days off, 4 days are leave so fantastic I say

[goatherd]

Probably my worst except for one other, but then again the bottom 3 on the Bus are only going to get worse... Ed said the Captains must take more responsibility so therefore I have decided to manually intervene:E

[Chewthecrude]

Not me! All night turns & minimum days off but I do drive a bus not the Boring!

[CAT3A]

top bid, got nothing, thank god I have some leave in June

[Orangewing]

Pretty good, dare I say it.... Got a string of days of (6) which I did not even bid for and 3 long haul trips, no turn arounds. Middle bid group. Happy camper all in all :)

[Fearless Leader]

Ed said the Captains must take more responsibility so therefore I have decided to manually intervene

Made my day with that quote........very funny:ok:

[yankee22]

A couple of long haul trips..... 22 days off total with only 5 days of leave used. Not bad at all!!!! Better then they have been as of late.

[Panther 88]

Are you guys friggin nuts? Celebrating how many days you have off in a public forum. How do you think we got into this situation to begin with? For gawd's sake be happy with your roster but please please let it lay with the "wow I got fifteen days off with seven in a row" or whatever. You don't think this will get back to the perfumed princes? And not all is roses, several still are getting ADs added to their rosters.:\

[fatigueflyer]

Panther....maaate! Take a chill pill buddy! Pprune is not always about doom and gloom. Good rosters deserve a bit of a celebration as the guys work hard and deserve it. Highlighting good rosters to others is a not bad thing and as far as keeping it from the company's prying eyes, I hate to disappoint you Panther but they do know what they have published :eek: Loosen up comrade.

[Panther 88]

FFlyer,
It has nothing to do with chill or whatever. It has to do with using one's noggin and not PUBLISHING how many days one has off. Think about one particular perfumed prince, sitting in his office (he who was responsible for our roster changes in the first place) and one of his minions comes in and shows him these "in your face" posts here. You happy with your roster and want to share the good news......private calls, emails, sms whatever. It is just like us publishing our VPNs and how to get around Etisalad. It's called "headwork". And BTW, my roster next month sux....next!

[frankie777]

In reply to the last two posts I can write and pass on to the perfumed princes that they are getting value for money out of me. 84 hours in May 88 in June with 10 days off 2nd top bid. Too much definitely but can only really blame the memsahib who wanted me to get weekends off. I wont be doing that again in a hurry as it seems to really mess up your roster. The big bone of contention though is all the missed overtime while working ones ..s off. Keep Smiling.:ugh:

[yankee22]

Having said that.... Panther 88 is correct. After taking into account the rest days before the long haul flights and the grace day after vacation, I only had 15 off total.

And it was my top bid group month. Things will be different next month I'm sure.

[Donkey Duke]

Which trips are the most sought after trips on each fleet? Are there some trips that go very senior? Why? Which trips are considered the worst? Thank You. Cheers. DD

[Wiley]

Sadly, Panther is 101% right.

Too late now, AAR will have copies on his desk already, but you all should seriously consider not sharing your lack of pain here.

[Dirigible]

Top bid this month, yet 10 days off. One trip (bid for) removed and replaced by AD's which then became an all night turnaround:ugh: Woken this morning to be asked if I would do a trip leaving later today.

A 'bus driver, but this is ridiculous. Happy for those that have improved rosters next month, but I've seen no improvement. Next time scheduling call for a favour, could I suggest a response along these lines: YouTube - angry ANGRY customer! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj2oXMdZ4sk)
:p

[CheikhUR6]

with 10 days off , can you back home ( U.S.) ?

[Obbie]

You can't get 10 consecutive days off anymore.
The new rules will not allow it.

[theidler]

Think he's picked up on the 10 days off mentioned in the previous post but doesn't appreciate that Dirigible means a total of 10 days off in the month and not 10 consecutive days off.

That's 10 days off that could be scattered around a West Coast ULH, a Far East/Oz/NZ multi hop and two or three night turnarounds to India.

[kiwi]

It's official, you may not plan your life at EK as per TCAS's latest love letter.
They now reserve the right to change your roster with almost no notice!
Thought that was what reserve coverage was for. They seem to be getting more and more desperate!!

[palm]

Ladies and Gentlemen,............

...............................

......................argumentative telephone calls will no longer be tolerated and will likely result in disciplinary action. Please be aware that from now on, all telephone conversations to Crew Scheduling will be recorded.

I understand that the problems above are due to only a very small number of crew but I think it important that you are made aware of this. Please accept my apologies if none of the above applies to you.

Please feel free to contact your Fleet if you have any questions or comments. ................

:D:D

[Tintin]

At lest you can call them for us at Qr there is direct line to reach them. And you are stuck with the many change they do on your roster.

[palm]

Guys don't speak anymore, recording machines will be intalled everywhere now in EK. Even in the Briefing room, oh oh bye the way you can't ask your coffee anymore:=
you have to order it from the HQ...wake me up please......i m having a bad nightmare:{:{

[Wiley]

... and a couple of ex-pilots. Some will recall the conversation between a captain and his effoh in Macca's on Shk Zed Rd (many years ago now) that magically reproduced itself on an audio tape during a disciplinary hearing.

[5star]

Why do I get that feeling in my stomack EVERY time I open the fckng portal. FCI #12345 with changes to our procedures, warning letters, crappy roster etc....
Feel like I need to throw up every time. :yuk: :yuk:
Just leave me alone.

[Plank Cap]

From FCI 2009 -059 re. Variable Pay, it has been confirmed that the company reserves the right to assign any pairing on a Day Off, subject to flight time and duty limitations.

Thanks Mr. Ed, whilst this may always have been the reality, you have just given me another reason in return to confirm that I shall not be answering my phone to EK on my time off. And that includes my company mobile .........

[You rock]

they cant stop you from having a beer either or can they

[skyvan]

Funny how quickly that particular FCI was withdrawn!

And not even by the normal method, this time Ed came on to withdraw it, you've really got to wonder at the number of FCI's that are put out then withdrawn the same day. Maybe that's why the auto-forward rule was canned from the Mail Program!!

[5star]

well... the beer or the off-switch on the mobile might not always help.
What if they cut and paste a nice nightturn during your string of 5 days OFF in a row later in the month. Whenever you check your roster or evita you're screwed...

[sheiken around]

Come on 5star....grow a set of cohones my friend !!! If you know you were rostered 5 days off when the schedule was issued, then why in goodness name would you be checking what changes are made on your days off? They can post a lunar landing on my days off if they want...just don't check the portal for changes when your off....simple....come on guys, grow up !!!

[kiwi]

You are conveniently forgetting your requirement to ring EVITA prior to each duty. They will get you then!!

[Watchdog]

ahhh...sorry but if I have 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 days off, my roster will not be checked - period. :mad:

[Instant Hooligan]

Kiwi,
If your duty is on the 6th day then you are required to check prior to that, not on day 1,2,3 or 4 so if they stick a duty in the middle you have no requirement to acknowledge it.

[ATSU]

It might just be my lack of computer nous but with the advent of the FOIP I have no choice but to acknowledge changes before I can successfully log on and there are many reasons to log on that are unrelated to roster changes (travel, new FCI's - oh wait minute no didn't mean to say that!)

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

ATSU, phone a friend and get them to check your roster, you will know if they have any plans for you, but it won't acknowledge any outstanding stuff.

SyB :zzz:

[ATSU]

SyB as I said previously I may not be the most computer savvy IT user but it appears to me that on the FOIP if you want to logon to get any kind of info you are forced to acknowledge changes to your roster even without knowing what they are. Am I doing something wrong?

Once I get my initial roster I rarely logon to look at it again but I do need to keep up with the torrent of FCI's and rescinds or I'd never make it out of briefing.

[IdleRetard]

If you know you were rostered 5 days off when the schedule was issued, then why in goodness name would you be checking what changes are made on your days off? ....don't check the portal for changes when your off....simple....come on guys, grow up !!! ahhh...sorry but if I have 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 days off, my roster will not be checked - period If your duty is on the 6th day then you are required to check prior to that, not on day 1,2,3 or 4 so if they stick a duty in the middle you have no requirement to acknowledge it. This is the kind of thing which drives me to despair. The reason our management treat us like idiots.

A simple example: It is now July and your August roster just came out with 5 days off at the end of August. Without you knowing it, you’re given a Doha on the middle of your 5 days off at the end of August. Between now and over a month from now, you WILL be operating some other duty. You are required to call Evita to check on it the night before. That is when they inform you of the flight on your days off over a month from now.

Jesus guys it ain't rocket science. THINK about what you're saying and pick a fight you can WIN! ATSU, ........................it won't acknowledge any outstanding stuff. The problem with posting advice like this is "they" catch on and modify it so no can check on your roster from their FOIP when there are changes outstanding for you. Besides, your friend may not want to risk seeing his own changes.

[Watchdog]

Idleretard,
your example is correct - but not relevant to MY (or Instant Hooligan's) comment regarding checking evita/FOIP on my day(s) off.

I don't know of ANY airlines that are bound to not change the published roster, mind you some do pay a 'roster change payment'.

[Instant Hooligan]

Jeez this stuff drives me to despair, if only people would read what has been said.
Thanks Watchdog at least you understood the point...
Regards
IH

[White Knight]

A lot of talk here guys - but I don't personally know of anyone who has been assigned a duty against a rostered day off against their wishes or without their knowledge. I find crew control to be polite if they call me and I have declined to operate on a day off on a number of times - no problem, no hassle.

It's those few who shout and swear down the phone line at them who cause all these new memos to be written:ugh::ugh:

[Cyberbird]

White night - unfortuneately you're way off the poor relaity at EK nowadays stating ... "but I don't personally know of anyone who has been assigned a duty against a rostered day off against their wishes or without their knowledge"

'caus that's WRONG ! as i got rostered recently for a EK 500 night turnaround in the middle of my 4 requested OFF days upfront of my leave !
and they called me when i was already on the airport going for my leave !! - so - i in fact HAD to reclaim my baggage and return, to do the f****inf BOM night-flight and to start 3 days later in my leave! scouts honour! How bad and mean is that ?!? :{

[sanddude]

If it was an already published day off on your roster then its your own problem if you don,t decline! Very simple really.

and if your that kind of a sissy. why pick up the phone anyway:rolleyes:

[donpizmeov]

Did anyone else notice the call out rates had been reduced as well?

I am with White Knight on this one. I politely decline their offer of extra work when called. No problem with this so far.

Don

[White Knight]

Cyberbird - I am fully aware of the reality here at EK. However if you haven't got the balls to decline the flight that's been inserted into xx days then have some spinach:{:{

[Kittty125]

Can we close this thread please - the FCI has been reissued with several changes and this is no longer relevant. Ta

[kingpost]

Good point Kitty

All the FCI mentions that is that if you say "Yes" then you will be compensated - you don't have to say YES.

[IdleRetard]

your example is correct - but not relevant to MY (or Instant Hooligan's) comment regarding checking evita/FOIP on my day(s) off. You guys don't seem to get it. No one's talking about ON days off. We're talking about the BIG PICTURE and how the crewing cnuts will get you. I'm trying to give you a bit of a clue so you know how it works but you seem not to get it. Sorry for your lack of nous.

[TheyCallMeTrinity]

You know what I miss? I miss the old days when I first got here and every tool I flew with thought that this was the G golly greatest place on earth. Everyone thought they were God's gift to aviation and had a financed P.O.S. Land Rover in the companies' garage just to prove it. Play dates, get together's, BBQ's, foolish property purchases and snubbing those who didn't gulp down the companies load with enthuasim! We would all look to the Big Bright Shiny Buildings while completely ignoring the conditions of those doing the building. As if anyone here is any different then the guy cleaning the toilet. We are all just tools in someone's dream. I don't know whether to celibrate your enlightenment or feel saddened that you've joined the jaded millions.
Hmm, think I'll celebrate, with a beer so I don't get used on my day off.

PS I don't give a damn about my spelling mistakes.
P PS Keep buying sand while the smart ones buy Providence.

[White Knight]

Idleretard - I'm not sure how you don't understand the simplicity of just saying NO.. A rostered xx day is YOUR day - FULLSTOP!! They can't "get you" if you don't want them to!

[Watchdog]

Idle, retard, perhaps it's you whom doesn't "get it" :ugh:

[IdleRetard]

Whiteknight, maybe we're talking about different concepts here. I'm not referring to you being called on the phone whilst on XX days and asked to operate a flight on a day off to which you, me or anyone else would naturally say NO.

It's the concept of you having more than minimum days off in a month and crewing replacing one of them LATER IN THE MONTH with a duty which you discover the next time you log into the portal. As you know, when you log in, you are "forced" to acknowledge the change.

This already happens with, for example, equipment substitution or any day of a reserve roster. The SAME process will be used to grab your day off.

When done this way, it is not a request. Congratulations, you have just given up a day off.

For the chest-beaters above, if you are in the middle of a group of days off, those days will be safe since you do not need to log in. They won't even bother trying. But you cannot protect those XX days if there's a duty between now and when they start later in the month. You're required to check for changes before any duty. This is when they will "get" you. Do you follow this?

Now, as was pointed out on Pg1 of this thread, the FCI in question was withdrawn, but as TCED said, this is because the value of the callout pay was incorrect. Has the FCI has been re-issued yet? There's little doubt it will be and that the sentence about the company reserving the right to use a pilot on a day previously shown as XX will still be there. It'd be nice to be proven wrong though.

[White Knight]

I understand what you're saying IR, however I have yet to 'personally' know of anyone who this has happened to. Besides you are still within your rights to call sked and say 'NO', I think you'll find that if you speak nicely to them they will always help you out - I've never found them to be unhelpful..

[Kittty125]

Guys,

For goodness sake check your work inbox - the Variable Pay FCI has been reissued and the 'offending' sentence has been withdrawn.

[White Knight]

Why would I log on on an xx day?:p

[Kittty125]

WK

You try and deny it but I bet you do ;)

[White Knight]

Tongue in cheek:ok: I'll be honest - I just can't get enough of Fleet Facts, FCIs, FCNs, Pelysys notifications and last but not least all that cr@p from Corporate Communications:{:{

[BigGeordie]

Although you can't forward stuff to your "home" e-mail address any more, anything from Corporate Communications can still be automatically consigned to deleted items. Saves a lot of time when you are reading through your inbox!:ok:

[Gulf News]

BG

Good tactic however be warned every now and then a corporate comms message contains vital info such as changes to the Group Employment Manual and employee regulation handbook which governs your terms and conditions. So you may miss a subtle or in some cases not so subtle change in your benefits unless you are in the habit of regularly reviewing said manuals.

[pool]

I don't know about you guys, but the last two months have shown no success at all in my bidding. Nil, nada, njet.
Not that I would call myself a wizard, but I had fairly decent outcome normally. But now all seems completely screwed up.

I'd like to know what your experiences are before complaining directly. At the moment I feel we might as well scrap the crap, rather than gining us the impression of influence. It would be less demotivating.

:yuk:

[palm]

Nothing, nada, quedal, zero......same for me:ugh:

[taliban pilot]

Middle bid group and NADA!!!!! ZERO!!! :ugh:

[Vagrant]

Same as you Pool. Normally reasonably happy from mid bid go up, but something has definitely changed.

V

[thatwasclose]

Same here guys, mine is really very bloody annoying. I have a stint where it shows the company does not really give a hoot about fatigue. Perhaps I should have taken unpaid leave.

[White Knight]

Sorry to hear you're rosters have 'banged out' so to speak - I'm alright Jack:}:}

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

WK, me to habibi, not bad really.

SyB :zzz:

[InnocentBystander]

I've found great assistance with the guys from the CRS bid assist. Email them with your questions and they will be very helpful. I've found their advise to be very helpful. If only to distinguish bid mistakes from "manual insertions".

They will happily email you the CRS bid results with a short explanation. or even better go the crs helps sessions and talk to them.

But remember, they're line pilots like you and me and do this in their spare time...

[mensaboy]

There IS a capability to see when there has been a manual insertion, which is a standard option of ADOPT. It shows a big M with a circle around it at the bottom of all affected Rosters, except of course EK has elected to disable this function. (for obvious reasons)

One tip.....minimize or don't use AVOIDS if at all possible. I have no explanation why this works but it seems to help.

Correct me if i'm wrong, and not trying to spread dissention, but the CRS guys are assigned their days when they are available for 'help', which is included as part of their roster. In addition, they get to choose ONE confirmed (I was told 2 but that seems ridiculous) pairing each month. Obviously much of the email time they do on their own, but well worth it in my opinion.
I appreciate their help and am in no way slagging them.

[767200]

Indeed. They do get to pick one trip per month for their help but in any case I have found them to be very helpful and in fact after taking two "lessons" from them my rosters have improved significantly..

[ekpilot]

I'm against the principle of pilots taking from pilots. Instead of asking for money, these guys do work for EK and are rewarded by taking away flights and days OFF from colleagues. If they want to do the job for free so be it. Don't take my flight and do it on your time. We all work for money. If I work more or do overtime I don't take my colleagues flights. Especially if i don't have the seniority to get it. I Ask to be paid with money. I could not walk around working for the CIE and being paid with my colleagues flights. It is EK's responsibility to pay these guys, not the pilots. It's costing EK nothing. The pilots are paying again with reduced t&c since these guys take all the good flights. Just pilots taking from pilots again. Pilots only think of themselves. Watch the coming months, it will be interesting I'm sure. My rosters is nothing i've asked for this month. Ridiculous.

Keep Discovering:ok:

[linedriva]

Ekpilot, If I've read your post correctly, then I have to disagree with you. These CRS help guys are working for US. They're trying to help us get the way of life we want (whether that's turnarounds or trips). The company really don't care about lifestyle as long as the flights are crewed. So I have no problem allowing them to pick a trip each month. Most of the advice I've received from them has been good and has improved my way of life. Even my bottom bid month wasn't that bad.

Keep up the work guys,:ok:

Linedriva

[PorkKnuckle]

these guys do work for EK

Why would EK care a pinch of s**t whether we know how to bid or not? The way I see it these guys "work for us" not for EK. If they get ONE free flight choice a month out of it then who cares...??

I'm surprised Ek still allow it. It must be costing them SOMEthing... very out of character.

I can't see why the CRS chaps bother putting in the effort for a bunch of moaning whingers who don't appreciate it - all for ONE free flight. Especially since they obviously know how to bid, themselves, and probably do well anyway.

A big thanks to the CRS guys...... :ok:

But the more people who cannot figure out how to bid properly, the better for those who can..... :E

Bring on straight seniority!

[mensaboy]

Keep the bid groups (from a guy with decent seniority)
But how about offering Bid Lines, in other words the company produces X number of rosters for X number of pilots and we bid each line in order of preference.

If there are 500 triple 7 F/O's, then the system produces 500 triple 7 F/O rosters and pilots bid for them in order of preference.

The benefits?
-a more equitable distribution of flying each month
-more effective use of manpower
-no more Manual insertions and fewer changes each month
-it is incredibly simple to bid
-easy for the company to design
-scrap ADOPT because it is not designed to optimize anything when a company misuses it
-seniority is more easily honored
-vacation time would actually mean something, in that the company couldn't simply load up the remainder of a vacation month
-rosters could be designed that followed a pattern, such as consistent direction of flight, or consistent report times etc.
-certain percentages of rosters could be designed to offer things such as stretches of days off, a sensible mix of ULR vs turns, or whatever the pilot group deemed most important
-easy to determine when you are not awarded what your seniority dictates, in other words no more roster manipulation

There is no doubt that Rosters at EK have become a huge negative issue and ADOPT in its present form, simply disguises the incompetence and corruption within the crewing department. Rosters and therefore lifestyles will continue to decline at EK until the mass exodus begins.

[ekpilot]

Fair enough it's okay to agree to disagree! Like i said i don't agree with the principle. It's about the principle. They (CRS guys) are not doing it for you. They are doing it for them. Because they can get favors. What are the favors, my flights and my days off when they are junior to me. If EK would pay money for the same job they would attract a different type of crowd for the job. Work=Money. I don't work for free unless i have no choice. Since nothing is free in this world, well they take our flights and our days OFF out of their seniority. I don't agree with that principle...

Keep Discovering:ok:

[Trader]

ADOPT works great. If senior mgmt made an effort to ensure that it operated properly!

Bidding lines stinks in comparison because the pilots lose flexibilty - especially in top months. If they can screw up adopt they can screw up lines so that NO one is happy.

The current system of rotating bids works well and certainly keeps the company happy. Look at the sick days of jr pilots at straight seniority company's as proof. After a while they simply give up and call in sick. With EK slowing it growth rate there will be more pilots at the bottom for a longer a time.

Regardless of the system used the company has to step in and ensure it runs correctly.

[White Knight]

ADOPT works fine, it's just the 'manhandling' that is the problem - And there is a big thick guide lurking somewhere but I can't remember where..

Bid lines - NO thanks:yuk:

And thanks to the help guys for giving their time.. So what if they get a flight out of it. It's the training department that'll do more damage to your roster if they decide to take your flights AFTER publication:ugh:

[PorkKnuckle]

Bidding for "lines" (whatever the hell that is) would stink worse. Days off is about the only thing you can bid for with any small chance of certainty (if done sensibly).

As for the trainers, sorry but they should be flying to all the crap-holes - eg India or Africa so the trainees actually get some benefit out of flying into places where controllers try to kill you and the support is incompetent or virtually non-existent. And for the DECs since they seem to be a necessary evil, they can get some actual idea of what they'll be dealing with when let loose upon the airline after 10 sectors. Not too hard to fly to lovely Europe is it??? Why waste it on training... :p

Look at the sick days of jr pilots at straight seniority company's as proof. After a while they simply give up and call in sick.

Unlike the old-timers who get shiite flying in their bottom month?? Not really fair either is it? Unless you're junior that is!

[Trader]

Actually, it is fair! Those old timers had the benefit of the rotating bid when they were junior. Now they are senior and they want it the other way!!!!!! Go figure!!

[Thylakoid]

Speaking of rosters, could anyone give me a hint on how to subscribe to that flight swap group?

Thanks

[cityfan]

As an "old time" union guy, who has lived under BOTH bid lines and ADOPT, it is interesting to see how the people here are "stewing" on bidding and the pros and cons of preferential bidding versus bid lines.

Sadly, bid lines work too well for pilots (some equalization of quality for everyone, someone not getting everything allows everyone to get something) and removes flexibility to "score" and "predict" schedules in the same manner as ADOPT does. With flexibility comes pilot-hosing and squeezing trips into small spaces. One thing that CAN help with ADOPT is knowing how the company scores certain events and allowing the pilot group to have some kind of PRE-preferencing some of those parameters. Clearly, that will NEVER happen.

Also, to borrow a phrase, once you go ADOPT, you never go back....so goodbye bid lines, hello company created maximum flexibility.

Just so you know, building scheduling parameters into your T&C is the ONLY way to effect some positive change once you go ADOPT. Sadly, most contract companies get very little "input" from their pilots when it comes to the "behind the scenes" build parameters in their scheduling system, so even trying to get those changes in your T&C is probably a losing cause.

Good luck and, blasphemy, I know, wouldn't it be great to see a strong union develop at one of these "only way is up" carriers like Emirates, Etihad, etc...?

A guy can dream, can't he?!:uhoh:

[rocketsurgeon]

Spoke with FDM and was told that the roster situation is coming from Senior Management. Crew Control and Schedulers were told to "disrupt" the rosters whenever possible.

Not my words - direct from FDM.

Rocket

[EK Snorkel]

Crew Control and Schedulers were told to "disrupt" the rosters whenever possible.



And I will "disrupt" Crew Control "disruptions" by pressing 2 :}

[PositiveRate876]

Speaking of rosters, could anyone give me a hint on how to subscribe to that flight swap group?

Thanks


The private forum http://www.pprune.org/emirates-66/
shows you how to subscribe along with other helpful
tips, phone numbers, etc.

[allaru]

"Crew Control and Schedulers were told to "disrupt" the rosters whenever possible."

If this is indeed true why don't the managers just come down to the aircraft and throw a bucket of sand in an engine.

That type of sabotage is no different to any other other type of sabotage that degrades safety in a deliberate and criminal way.

What a bunch of buffoons.

[ekpilot]

the roster situation is coming from Senior Management
Crew Control and Schedulers were told to "disrupt" the rosters whenever possible.

Heard similar from very credible SMNC guys. Now that all departments are under one big mission control room at level 6 of HQ it is easy to create these situations by walking in there, look over shoulders, and make last minute changes. Desperate times desperate measures. We are hurting more than everybody think. Do not underestimate this financial crisis. We might have hit the point of no return. After all the amount of money we have to pay at the end of the month to cover our costs must be unreal. At one point if you don't cover your engagements nobody wait for you. With the yields these days we are losing big money. Interesting times ahead! In the mean time my roster is a joke. Nothing I asked for. They are putting special attention at inserting flights before and after leave these days. There are so many guys on the swap groups asking to swap before or after their leave because they received no days off. This is easy to disturb when Adopt gives you a string of five days. Just to think about what the company might insert into Adopt's parameters. They can play with it on a monthly basis and they don't have to tell anybody. Our management team are used to sail in clear waters. They are right in the middle of a perfect storm. So far these changes to our rosters must be required thinking they are doing the right thing to save the ship... Only time will tell what these type of decisions do.

Keep discovering:ok:

[mensaboy]

''Desperate times desperate measures. We are hurting more than everybody think''

Yes WE are hurting but not the company. You have fallen for the propaganda.

EK is doing fine and exceptionally well if compared to any other airline in the world. The real problem is that Dubai (replace 'Dubai' with whomever you wish, for example Government), is raping EK. Is there anyone who believes that EK is not 'funding' Dubai's massive debt?

The departments at EK responsible for ticket pricing, choosing the most profitable destinations and route structure have always been operated effectively. Now, suddenly they have got it all wrong?
Not a chance... especially considering fuel is cheaper than what was budgeted for, we are using less fuel as well, AND our loads are 83.5%. It is beyond 'reason' that ticket prices were set so wrong. Besides, EK is still way more expensive than any other airline in the region.

WE the employees are suffering, in order to keep Dubai afloat and I would prefer if they would be honest about it, instead of winding up the propaganda machine.

There is no accountability with respect to profits, who takes what, and where exactly the money goes. To believe that Dubai is not reaching deep into EK's pockets, is naive. I would do the same if I ran this place.

So.... to excuse EK for continually altering our T&C's, messing with our rosters, and basically destroying our quality of life, just 'encourages' them to continue down this path.

(Pardon the thread drift)

[PorkKnuckle]

You have fallen for the propaganda

Congratulations, Grasshopper, you have finally seen the light. I remember when you spruiked to a much different and very joyful tune.

Something doesn't add up. Managment cannot be that stupid...can they??

You're not missing anything at all. Try looking at it this way:

If it tastes like bullsh!t and it looks like bullsh!t and it smells like bullsh!t, then you can rest quite assured that it most definitely IS bullsh!t.

I find this explains quite a lot of the oddball proclamations which I hear about in this operation.

But bullsh!tting your employees successfully and without losing their respect is quite an artform and they're just not good enough at it to be convincing. Why? Because with the short-term blow-ins from US and UK, their hearts are not in it. And with the others, their minds are not.

[White Sausage]

My 2 cents: I guess EK is trying to p:mad:ss us off as much as possible so that as many guys as possible are leaving. Saving face, eyh? After they fired a bunch of guys for ridiculous reasons, everybody is very careful nowadays, so no opportunity to fire people. Hence, why not make life as difficult and sh:mad:tty as possible to make people leave? Makes perfect sense, doesn´t it? Otherwise I cannot explain why after so many years in EK and with the same (standing) bid every month I got NIL, NOTHING, ZILCH of my bids :ugh:
But before I leave, rest assured that EK will pay a price for that...

[Gordo]

Just to comfirm the stories folks I have been told by the rosterers themselves
of this 'roster disruption' by the singular management person.
He will personally come and look at the rosters before publication and enforce the change/insertions.

Ek pilot mentioned about how the company can change the parameters of the adopt programme.
How transparent and obvious would this be?, in particular to the bid assist guys.
I have NOT changed my bidding technique since we started with adopt 6 years ago and never had any problems(especially in top bid months).
With the latest woes I have been informed(as many others have) by the crs bods that there were no insertions an that was how the computor spat it out.

HMMM.. all of a sudden the days off that I would ALWAYS get before are no longer there(top bid) and it hasn't been tampered with?(and Im more senior)

Go Figure......

[Wiley]

Who is the manager (singular) who is the root of the problem? Answer: 'A' and then insert the four letter name of a popular US computer company that specialiases in mail order computers.

Trying to see the logic behind the current personnel policies leads to only one conclusion: current EK management have resurrected a bright idea that was first brought up by another (I think now long gone) star in EK management, (actually an accountant who shared his surname with the WW2 British fascist leader, known universally at the time within the company as 'Miserly bin Beancounter') quite some years ago now, when he suggested at a meeting of very-senior-people that the company should introduce policies that discouraged pilots from staying with the company long term.

Why? Because, in his infinite accountant's wisdom, he could show that it was cheaper to run an airline with the majority of the captains being new to the left hand seat, because those new captains, with far fewer 3% annual increments going into their pay packets than longer serving captains, filled the same seat and completed the same flights more cheaply than their more senior colleagues.

If this is even halfway true, the company seems to be having it both ways, because they didn't pay the 3% increment this year (not for the first time) and they're bringing in experienced captains from outside at first year captain rates of pay.

If this is true, it's a rather stark reminder to pilots just how little regard these people have for any skills we might think we may develop over the years we spend in the left hand seat. With TCAS' insistance that automatics be used to the fullest extent at all times on the line, it would seem they think they don't require experienced people in the left seat.

In their eyes, anyone can do the job so long as he/she follows the many directives from above to the letter, that they seem to think can be written to cover every situation.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

There is no evil masterplan. Its just the sadism of a single - very powerful - individual.

[Schnowzer]

Is it possible that the rosters have gone down hill because the flying target has increased from 700hrs 10 years ago to 850 ish now?

No let's run with the conspiracy theories. It is the radiation beyond the Van Allen belt interfering with the Adopt program......:eek:

[trimotor]

I have a cunning plan: for next month, I'm going to bid to avoid everything i desire and vicky verca. The opposite worked the last two months, so you never know.

Nothing to lose.

[jackbauer]

You desire Vicky Verca? Does she know how you feel about her?

[trimotor]

Hi JackB. You leave Vicky out of this! She's a good girl, and usually turns the other cheek..

TM

[goatherd]

I don't know what they are trying to prove but I have had 2 illegal rosters in 2 months, both inserted flights! To their credit they took it away without the toys being thrown out of the cot. I just expect more from a supposedly professional outfit!

[fatbus]

What made the rosters illegal

[nolimitholdem]

I've often thought that if pilots at EK performed their jobs to the same standards as are tolerated in virtually all other departments (MANAGEMENT, crew transport, accommodation, rostering, etc etc etc) there would be big smoking craters all over the planet on a regular basis. (Notwithstanding my belief that we are getting closer all the time to such an event...)

I realize part of the reason pilots are pilots is because they relish the responsibility but seriously sometimes the hypocrisy and double (triple? quadruple?) standards become a little tiresome...

[Thylakoid]

The private forum http://www.pprune.org/emirates-66/ (http://www.pprune.org/emirates-66/)
shows you how to subscribe along with other helpful
tips, phone numbers, etc.

Thanks Positiverate, but it didn't work; I can't get in.

[EGGW]

ONLY Emirates staff have access to that link, once I have verified their Bona Fide employment @ EK. I throw away all data once verified.
Its a quiet forum, but myself and others have put some links of use as a sticky at the top. Some who are Paranoid that I am a management spy don't join up, thats your choice I guess.

EGGW