Converting an ICAO CPL(H) to JAA in the UK

[mongoose237]

As a result of the frequent questions, I've summarised the process for converting an ICAO CPL(H) to JAA.
Hopefully it will be of some use to both licenced pilots and those considering their training options.
The information is current as of March 2006, and although the situation may be similar in other JAA countries it is written from a UK perspective.
____________________________________________________

The main guidance for UK licencing is LASORS 2006 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_06_WEB.pdf)
Another useful document to reference is JAR FCL 2 (http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/444077.pdf)

Medical
You will have to attend Aviation House (Gatwick) for the initial Class 1 issue.
If you have a current ICAO CPL with valid medical the examinations are slightly shorter and the price reduced accordingly from the full £435. Current charges here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_Med_Aeromedical_Centre_Fees_Jan-2006.pdf)

Theory
You have two options:
1. Undertake the exams at ATPL level (13 / 14 exams). This covers you for the issue of a CPL but also gives you credits for 3 years for an IR, and then later ATPL issue. Although if you do not get an IR within 3 years your ATPL theory credits lapse, people have reported that they are still being given the option of a CPL/IR after this time without further theory examination but this is not published policy as far as I am aware.
2. Undertake the exams at CPL level (9 exams), which only cover you for the issue for a CPL. They do not cover the theory for an IR, or for the issue of an ATPL at a later date.

The price depends on whether you undertake a distance learning or residential course, and whether at CPL or ATPL level. To give an idea, a full distance-learning ATPL course is around £1900 excluding exam fees.

Page 9 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF) has a list of course providers

The exams cost £60 per paper, and can be sat at Glasgow, Silsoe, Oxford or Gatwick on designated days.

If you have an ICAO CPL and are undertaking the JAA exams at CPL level, the amount of theory training before sitting the exams is determined by the Head of Training of the theory school. The same applies if converting ATPL to ATPL. However, if you wish to go from ICAO CPL to JAA ATPL theory, you need to undertake the full theory course.

There are NO WAYS AROUND SITTING THE WRITTEN EXAMS

Flying Requirements
Provided you meet the requirements of JAR-FCL2 2.155(b) & (c) shown on Page 1-D-1, the school's Head of Training will decide how much training you need before test.

This (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_03_H.PDF) is an idea of what you can inspect on test day.

The CAA examiner will charge £691 to take your skills test. This does not include the cost of the aircraft which you will organise yourself with your school. If you have a "partial pass" the resit is £462. If you fail, the retest is £691

A list of training providers is shown in the same document that is linked in Theory above

Additional Types
JAA utilises the type rating system. Your licence will be opened with one type on it, for most people this will be a piston. This means all subsequent piston type ratings require 3 hours of training plus test. Your first single engine turbine type rating is 5 hours plus test, all subsequent single engine turbine ratings are 3 hours plus test.
The CAA may well consider a reduction in training based on prior experience on type, but this is on a case-by-case basis

Fees
For the grant of CPL(H) £210
Grant or Renewal of FRTOL (if necessary) £63
Additional Types added to licence £105
Scheme of Charges (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_SCharges_prof_06.pdf)

Other Costs
Accommodation during brush-up courses and exams. Extra equipment such as charts, CRP-5 and so on

Other Advice
If possible, register as a Sole Trader so you can claim the VAT back
If you have the hours and intend to do a Flight Instructor's Course, combine your CPL skills test with the FI course pre-entry flight test.

[alouette]

Thank you for reminding me how useless institutions such as the JAA generates revenue and profit on the premise of a common Europe:yuk:

and let us not forget the JAA "air law" exam comprised of ICAO annex 1 to 18...where is the sense in that???

[Whirlygig]

Thanks Mongoose; a lot of information there with useful references. Well done for putting the work in to do that!

Cheers

Whirls

[alouette]

To mongoose:

Please don't be offended by my previous comment. Great effort to put all the information up on the forum. Although, everytime I hear about a common Europe, my bowels react dangerously irritated about this aviation scheme.

Alouette

[Whirlygig]

OK guys, we'd better be careful here; we don't want to exacerbate Alouette's Irritable Bowel Syndrome now do we?

Cheers

Whirls

[cl12pv2s]

For anyone whose interested, this is what it would cost me to convert based on the figures above. This is before, IR, airfare to London, aircraft rental, equipment, accomodation etc...!

Full Medical 435
Exams 780
Distance Learning Course 1900
CAA Examiner 691
Licence Fee 210
Initial Type Rating 63
Additional Types 210
GBP4289 or USD7697 or AUD 10215

If that's not daylight robbery that what is!

cl12pv2s

[mongoose237]

Night (LASORS E5.3)
If your ICAO licence has night privileges and you have met the requirements listed in LASORS E5.2 that can be endorsed on to your UK licence without any training (or fees if it is at initial issue, IIRC).

You can also get a CPL without night privileges - remember unless you are flying a twin you won't be flying PT at night, and there are very few students with the minimum requirements for a night rating, let alone the inclination to do one, so not having it on your FI ticket is not the end of the world. Although I hear rumours that they aren't allowing instructors to remove their restricted status now unless the "no night" has been lifted.

Although the medical exam is still expensive, there is a considerable saving if you already hold a medical and CPL - there is no chest x-ray or EEG

I think I covered the other points in the initial summary.

[Head Bolt]

Mongoose's reply has it just about right, not a pretty set of circumstances and very costly.
Unfortunately it is not a given right to have the training for subsequent types reduced to 3 hours. FCL2 requires 5 hours, but it may be reduced to 3 hours by the TRTO provided that the applicant has sufficient time on a type considered to be similar enough (eg A 300C when applying for an Enstrom rating).
The rub is that the TRTO must have the option to make this reduction specifically written into their TRTO training manual, and if it isn't there you won't get the rating with reduced training hours.
But of course the CAA don't tell you that, and unless you check with the TRTO first you may well find your application rejected on the basis of not meeting the training requirements.

[mongoose237]

The UK has issued a long term exemption for the reduction in type rating training (thankfully!) and so removed the requirement to apply for an individual agreement from Approvals Support - take a look at Heli TrainingComm 1/2005 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1_2005_H.pdf)

Around 10 hours of flight training sounds about right to get used to the culture shock.

As for the groundschool: I presume a CPL theory course will take less time than an ATPL one.
A full-time ATPL residential course for ab initio students takes around 5 to 6 months
Someone with a professional licence already should be able to considerably reduce that time if they want to by undertaking a distance-learning course full-time.

[BigMike]

Err, 10 hours of training to cover what? "JAA manouvers" Do you guys do it a different way to everyone else?... come on, tell us your secrets...;)

[mongoose237]

It is merely the average amount of time people seem to take to get comfortable. If they need less, they take less. If they need more, they take longer.

Bare in mind probably 90% of these convertees are raw ICAO CPLs.

There is no conspiracy.

[VEMD]

Does anyone know how feasable it is to upgrade a JAR-FCL/H to JAR-FCL ATPL/H in another JAA state member?
Would the upgrade be valid in my country?

[Heliport]

mongoose237

Thank you for taking the time to set out a full answer to a frequently asked question.


It's almost beyond belief, and arguably an embarrassing disgrace, that a qualified commercial pilot is made to do all that, and pay the enormous costs that go with it, just to obtain a JAA licence.


There is no conspiracy.
I imagine people will have a variety of views on that. ;)




Heliport

[Rotorbee]

Thank good Switzerland still does not use JAR - FCL for helicopter pilots. They claim that JAR is not strict enough, but it is still a quite a bit cheaper than the UK. But JAR has nothing to do with common europe. Switzerland is not member of the EU but member of the JAA like norway.

[VeeAny]

Vital

Are you sure about You will need to pass the JAA PPL Air law written exam, and maybe one other exam (can't remember which one - maybe "Human Performance & Limitations"?), a JAA Radio Oral (RT) Exam, and get a JAA Class 2 medical.


LASORS (yes I know its only a guidebook) says about non JAA but ICAO contracting states in Section A7.

A licence issued by any other ICAO Contracting State
(including a JAA State that has not yet been recommended
for mutual recognition) is also deemed to be valid under
the ANO for the purposes of flying a UK registered
aircraft, providing that the licence and medical are valid
in accordance with the rules/laws of the issuing State, and
the CAA does not in the particular case give direction to
the contrary. However, the ANO 2005 Article 26 (4) (a)
states that the holder of such a licence cannot:

1. act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft
flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial
work or on any flight in respect of which he receives
remuneration for his services as a member of the
flight crew; or

2. in the case of a pilot’s licence, to act as a pilot of any
aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances
requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight
Rules or to give any instruction in flying.


Which would seem to imply if you have a licence and medical from your state of issue you are legal, unless the CAA have said otherwise.

Some schools may not hire to you, but legally I believe you are ok.

Thoughts ?

[parcasna]

I Would Like To Know, If Someone Have Information About Changing My Icao License Cpl(h) To Jaa, And How Much Money I Have To Spend?
And Other Question, What About Helicopter Jobs In Germany, I Speak English And German But Not Aviation German. If Someone Know Something, Thak You For The Information.
:)

[alouette]

Hi there,

I am in possession of an ICAO CPL(H) since about twenty years, and all I have to do is a NVFR rating, get it on to my ICAO license and then afterwards I will receive a non restricted JAA CPL(H) VFR according to trusted sources at the aviation authority. PM me if you have more questions:ok:

[parcasna]

So With A Night Vfr Rating, I Have To Add To My Icao Cpl(h)license.... But.... Do I Have To Do All The Tests, Ground School, And All That Stuff?....can You Explain More On This?
Thak You.

[alouette]

I was told by licensing to get a NVFR rating, and then return to the authority and fill in the application form to obtain a JAR Commercial VFR. No added written exams and the like.

The question is what nationality is your ICAO license...:}

[flap flap flap]

I am in possession of an ICAO CPL(H) since about twenty years, and all I have to do is a NVFR rating, get it on to my ICAO license and then afterwards I will receive a non restricted JAA CPL(H) VFR according to trusted sources at the aviation authority. PM me if you have more questions


This sounds highly unlikely. If it were the case there would be a queue of people outside the CAA HQ with their FAA CPL licences in their hands, and places like Bristol Groundschool/Cabair/Bristow Academy/All the B&Bs in Cheddar/London Met Uni etc. would go bust overnight.

There's no way around the system, you will need to do the JAA CPL/ATPL exams, unless you are ex-uk military, then other rules apply. Check LASORS.

[parcasna]

Thanks A Lot.

[alouette]

I have an austrian ICAO CPL(H) and ground exams are not required to obtain a JAA CPL(H) VFR except for the NVFR rating. So before you start ranting about my post think first I suggest...:=

[paco]

Check out our ad usually on the right Caledonian Advanced Pilot Training (http://www.captonline.com)

Phil

[flap flap flap]

OK, maybe Austrian CPL to JAA CPL is easier. But it certainly ain't easy from FAA to JAA. "parcasna" didn't mention what kind of ICAO CPL he had. I stand to be corrected. Or he stands, or rather he sits.. 14 exams....

[Whirlygig]

Since Austria is a member of the JAA then you are converting your national CPL(H) to a JAA one. Converting a national licence is not what the original poster asked.

Cheers

Whirls

[parcasna]

It's From Mexico My License

[paco]

Parcasna - sadly you will have to sit 13 exams for the ATPL(H) and 9 for the CPL(H), and do 650 hours and 405 hours study, respectively, through an approved school (i.e. us).

Phil

[parcasna]

Yes i have seen some information, in the Caledonian School, I saw they have some facilities at the Bristow Academy in Florida, so I think is the better for me, because I am in Mexico.

And the price I think will be like 11,000 dollars or something similar,...do you know today's prices?...or just an aproximation?..well anyway Thanks.

[paco]

We are just about to get an arrangement with Cloud 9 as well, plus one in Spain! Also one at Ocean, but distance learning only.

Phil

[parcasna]

thanks phil

[mattymatt]

i was wondering if anybody would be able to give me the exact details and requirements for a conversion at the end of my CPL training holding 150hrs... from an NZ ICAO to a JAA UK licence

[paco]

Probably pretty much as said above - pass the 9 written exams (more details at Caledonian Advanced Pilot Training (http://www.captonline.com), and the skill test. Budget for about 10 hours, but depending on your recency you may get away with less.

Phil