Indonesian Airforce C-130 crash

[RodH]

Story from the Australian Broadcasting news

Indonesian Hercules crashes with 100 on board

Posted 43 minutes ago
An Indonesian military transport plane carrying 13 crew and about 96 passengers has crashed in Madiun in East Java, an air force spokesman says.
The number of casualties was unclear, said spokesman Bambang Soelistyo.
He said the C-130 Hercules transport plane had been flying from Jakarta to the eastern part of Java island.
Other reports said the plane crashed into several houses and at least two people were dead.
- Reuters

[aseanaero]

Local news is reporting that a wing fell off prior to impact

Looks like no survivors , TV footage shows just the tail section intact and the rest of the aircraft totally destroyed

[Willoz269]

How the heck do you shove 13 crew and 96 passengers into an H model Herc????? They had their gear on as well!

[david.craig]

BBC24 are leading with this story:

"Plane smashed into houses before skidding through a rice field and bursting into flames"

"Only part of the plane intact is the tail"

"Among the passengers were 10 children"


64 feared dead. Apparently it was carrying military aircrew and their family's, having left Jakarta and due to make "many stops" in eastern Indonesia.

I purposely put those in quotations as i hear them off the news, as I don't want to be accused of making false statements

[torquewrench]

Local news is reporting that a wing fell off prior to impact

While we should wait for a more authoritative source than local news, there is regrettable precedent for inflight wing separation on the C-130.

One of the more horrifying things I've seen on video was a Hawkins and Powers A-model fire tanker suffering a center wing box failure while maneuvering hard at low altitude to make a fire drop. Both wings departed the airframe almost instantaneously.

The Hercules is an amazingly tough and well engineered bird, but cycle time and corrosion can make it structurally unsafe, just as with any other aircraft.

[aseanaero]

The C130 was about 5nm on approach to Madiun AFB

Wreckage is inverted in rice paddies

[Old Fella]

Willoz269, not sure it was an "H" model, certainly a different "duck's arse" to the RAAF "H" model which is squared off to accommodate the on-board EPIRB. Doesn't matter anyway, unless it was stretched, as all the C130's to the J were the same as far as pax capacity. Report I read made no mention of wing separation.

[aseanaero]

Which model C130

It's a stretch model , L-100-30

[RodH]

78 dead in Indonesian Hercules crash
Posted 4 hours 27 minutes ago
Updated 1 hour 29 minutes ago
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r374199_1738382.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r374199_1738387.jpg)The burning wreckage of the Hercules lies scattered in East Java. (Reuters)

Video: Indonesian plane crash (ABC News) (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r374211_1738428.asx)
At least 78 people were killed when an Indonesian military transport plane crashed Wednesday in East Java, an air force spokesman said.
"The latest data that I have received is there have been 78 people killed in the accident... This number can rise because the evacuation process is still going on," Bambang Sulistio said.
Television footage showed the burning wreckage of the Hercules scattered in rice paddies in Magetan, about 160 kilometres east of Yogyakarta.
"The plane hit some houses, bounced, hit the ground and then caught fire," one witness told Metro TV.
East Java military chief Suwarno told the state-run Antara news agency that the aircraft was carrying 98 passengers and 14 crew.
The crash occurred as the plane was preparing to land at Iswahyudi military air base.
"About 15 metres of the tail is still intact, but the body to the front is broken and burnt," said Suwardi, a subdistrict head, in the district of Karas in Magetan.
"Earlier we heard blasts. But not anymore, now the plane is still on fire," added the official, who said air force personnel were trying to evacuate victims but the site was difficult to reach because it was on the fringe of a rice field.
It is the second accident involving an Indonesian air force Hercules in two weeks, after one overshot the runway of Wamena airport in Papua on May 10. One person was reportedly injured in that incident.
In response to the Wamena accident, the air force said it would check its Hercules fleet, which is being upgraded with airframe and engine capability improvements.
Early last month, 24 military personnel died when their Fokker 27 training aircraft careered into a hangar and burst into flames at an air base in West Java.
Indonesia is the world's largest archipelagic nation and relies heavily on air travel, but accidents are common and its commercial airlines are banned from flying in European Union airspace for safety reasons.
- AFP/Reuters

[Old Fella]

aseanaero. That explains my question then, the L100 series are civilianised "E" models and I think the Indonesian Air Force has a number of L100-30's.

[Rollingthunder]

Perhaps an aside, Indonesian aircraft are still banned from European air space, and for good reasons, but what is Indonesia doing to fix the problems?

Look away, it might go away?

[flipster]

Very Sad - as 'families' will likely include wives and kids. RIP.

Maybe we should let the investigators investigate before spouting any theories.

flipster

[aseanaero]

Here's where the wing coming off was reported earlier this morning

KOMPAS.com - Sayap Hercules Copot Sebelum Jatuh (http://nasional.kompas.com/read/xml/2009/05/20/09582012/Sayap.Hercules.Copot.Sebelum.Jatuh)

"Sayap Hercules Copot Sebelum Jatuh" loosely translated means "Hercules wing off before crashing"

Who knows what really happened but that was the initial report in one of the local papers this morning.

I have a lot of respect for the air force here and they have been pouring a LOT of money into the Hercs since the 2004 tsunami playing catch up on the 10 yrs prior when they had a spares embargo so it's not through lack of effort.

The air force is a tight knit family (most serve for life) and this will hit them HARD.

Turut berduka cita

[Chesty Morgan]

Torquewrench, this one?

YouTube - Lockheed C-130 Hercules water bomber crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3OyVnQBARw)

Not nice.

[SE-EMG]

Ha!!! there we have the reason! most likely could have been and overload of the aircraft and could not maintain the climb rate, aircraft stalls, and boom!

[K.Whyjelly]

Ha!!! there we have the reason! most likely could have been and overload of the aircraft and could not maintain the climb rate, aircraft stalls, and boom!

Case closed then. No need for any further speculation............















cnut.................:hmm:

[protectthehornet]

wasn't the plane landing and not taking off?

I do know of one case where a plane was overloaded...took off fine, but the crew used a much lighter vref on landing and hit hard enough to drive gear up through wings...it wasn't a C130 in my example though.

[Buntybunny]

:hmm: Tested to over twice the safe load surely!

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

BBC report 110+ on board!

[aseanaero]

To any C-130 pilots , at 3 to 5 NM from the airfield how much flap would typically already be deployed in calm conditions ?

[119.4]

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Indonesia air crash kills scores (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8058721.stm)

[nano404]

Sad. At least 109 on board. A witness said he saw a wing fall off, but that was after he saw the plane on the ground. Not sure if that was the other wing or the news reporter got it wrong.

"I heard at least two big explosions and saw flashes of fire inside the plane," said Lamidi, a 41-year-old peasant who was working in a nearby rice field and ran for cover. "The wing snapped off and fell to the ground."
"Before the plane crashed, I heard several blasts and then it started wobbling from left to right," 2nd Pvt. Saputra said from his bed at the air force hospital.Several blasts?

[aseanaero]

SUMMARY:
We are adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for all Lockheed Model 382,

382B, 382E, 382F, and 382G series airplanes. This AD requires an inspection to identify discrepant

barrel nuts in the upper wing joint, engine truss, and rear beam pylon support; and replacement of any
discrepant barrel nut with a new barrel nut, if necessary. This AD results from a report of severe
cracking of multiple barrel nuts in the wing station (WS) 220 upper wing joint found during
scheduled maintenance. We are issuing this AD to prevent cracking of the barrel nuts in the upper
wing joint, engine truss, and rear beam pylon support, which could result in reduced structural
integrity of the affected part and consequent detachment of the wing or engine from the airplane.
DATES:





This AD is effective June 4, 2009.

The Director of the Federal Register approved the incorporation by reference of a certain

publication listed in the AD as of June 4, 2009.



We must receive comments on this AD by July 20, 2009.


This was just released by the FAA today and arrived in my email 30 mins ago ( coincidence or this accident accelerated the release ? )


From the BBC link in the post above


Another local said nuts and bolts also fell from the sky.

One survivor said it felt like the plane's engines just stopped and then the aircraft began to break apart in mid-air

[billynospares]

FAA are slow then RAF did this check over a month ago. Wrong type of nuts found fitted on USAF aircraft prone to cracking due to construction.

[SE-EMG]

Well, perhaps it was landing, i wasnt really 100%, its just, that i could be one reason.....BUT!!! what they could have done wrong as well, i am not saying that they did, but maybe the Pilots calculated the wrong Gross weight of the Aircraft, Since the plane was an overload situation, the CDU could have given them a warning.
For some reason, they changed it to a lighter Gross weight, then after the aircraft calculates and sets the speed.
Look at this.

Since they could have taken off manually, they set the aircraft on ILS landing,
and before the pilotes entred a lighter gross weight then they should had.

1) what the should have calculated. Weight : 2194.4 Kg sets the speed of 150knots for landing (!) Obs!! Overload!!

2) what they could have done wrong. Set weight: 1921.4 Kg, sets speed of 140 knots, but the Hercules has an weight of 2194,4 which will make the plane descent more the expected, and note that the engines are late responded. Takes a while to get power to 100%

Easy - Erik.G

[SE-EMG]

Never mind, i seams that the plane had a couple of expolsions before landing...

Just ignore

[Grabbers]

Guys/Girls

Isn't this all a bit unseemly? I take the point that very few of those loved ones left behind will be avid readers of PPRuNe but still...

[herkdrv]

Well, perhaps it was landing, i wasnt really 100%, its just, that i could be one reason.....BUT!!! what they could have done wrong as well, i am not saying that they did, but maybe the Pilots calculated the wrong Gross weight of the Aircraft, Since the plane was an overload situation, the CDU could have given them a warning.
For some reason, they changed it to a lighter Gross weight, then after the aircraft calculates and sets the speed.
Look at this.

Since they could have taken off manually, they set the aircraft on ILS landing,
and before the pilotes entred a lighter gross weight then they should had.

1) what the should have calculated. Weight : 2194.4 Kg sets the speed of 150knots for landing (!) Obs!! Overload!!

2) what they could have done wrong. Set weight: 1921.4 Kg, sets speed of 140 knots, but the Hercules has an weight of 2194,4 which will make the plane descent more the expected, and note that the engines are late responded. Takes a while to get power to 100%

Easy - Erik.G

WTF are you talking about??? Quit talking out your ass and let the experts deal with the safety investigation. Do you even know what a Herk looks like?

[SE-EMG]

Who the hell stook a pole up your ass, this is what i agood friend of mine told, who is a pilot told us, he is the one that you should blame if you get pms! And i thought that it could have been a good reason, So Shut the F:mad::mad:k up and go slove your problem! with him, not me!

Out!

[SE-EMG]

and for the Rec of it! i said you should igonre the above text because the currently there was a boom before the plane crashed.

[Top Bunk Tester]

MODS

I think the swedes probation has just run out :=

[SE-EMG]

this has nothing to do about them, i am just sad that all i comment and state turn out to be offensive to others, and keep on getting **** for it. If you dont angree, just ignore, i dont want your opinion!

[K.Whyjelly]

this has nothing to do about them, i am just sad that all i comment and state turn out to be offensive to others, and keep on getting **** for it. If you dont angree, just ignore, i dont want your opinion!

You are getting '****' because you are commenting on a subject you have little or no comprehension of. You would be better off just reading and learning and not making asinine comments

[ARENDIII]

You are making a fool of yourself!
Moderators-Please can we put this person into the cooler for a week or two?
Arend III.:eek:

[vintac34]

TV footage shows an apparently feathered prop.in the wreckage..

[ARENDIII]

50%-approximately 15 degrees.
Yes-also saw the feathered prop-question is-when was it feathered and was it the only one?
Arend III.

[PPRuNe Towers]

We've given SE-EMG (http://www.pprune.org/members/300249-se-emg) access to our sister probationary forum:

Free Coloring Pages & Sheets for Kids @ Crayola.com - Official Site (http://www.crayola.com/free-coloring-pages/)

Rob

[aseanaero]

Flaps
50%-approximately 15 degrees

Thanks Arendiii,

Why I ask is I read once that flap settings was one of the factors in the C-130A fire bomber accident , apparently the wing structure has a much lower G limit with the flaps deployed and at high weights and rolling in pitching during the dropping of the fire retardent pushed it beyond limits.

[ARENDIII]

Positive Negative
Flaps and L/G up 2.5 -1
Flaps and L/G down 2.0 0.0
Flaps down 2.0 0.0

Arend III

[soddim]

PPRuNe Towers, That's the most amusing post I've seen on Pprune in a long time - congratulations!

[GreenKnight121]

Thanks Arendiii,

Why I ask is I read once that flap settings was one of the factors in the C-130A fire bomber accident , apparently the wing structure has a much lower G limit with the flaps deployed and at high weights and rolling in pitching during the dropping of the fire retardent pushed it beyond limits.

That's funny... when I read the NTSB report (as published in Aviation Week), it didn't mention flap setting having anything to do with the wing separation.

Instead, it blamed the crash on corrosion-aided fatigue cracking in the center box.

Apparently, there had been earlier cracking problems in "pre-E" model C-130 outer wings that had been fixed by adding stiffeners... which increased stress on the center box, which then got its own stiffeners. However, the stiffeners covered an area that was susceptible to corrosion, which could now not be seen in a visual inspection, leading to new cracking.

This was the specific cause cited by the NTSB for the center box failure.


-E model and later Hercs had a different alloy in both the outer panels and center box that was more resistant to cracking, as well as structure design changes to reduce areas of uneven stress loading.

[aseanaero]

Hi Greenknight

Yep, primary cause was corrosion and fatigue in H+P C-130 crash

I just found the paragraph on flap setting in the NTSB report , what is interesting was the pilot was correcting the pitch up of the C-130 when dropping the fire retardant when the accident occured.


Airplane Operating Limitations
The FAA approved operating limitations for the airplane were based on two documents, one the original US Air Force flight manual, T.O. 1C-130A-1 (the Restricted Category certificate operating limitations required adherence to this document), and the supplemental operating limitations issued with the Supplemental Type Certificate for installation of the retardant tank and dispensing equipment. The original maximum-g load factor for the C-130A was +3.0 g/-1.0 g up to maximum level flight speed (Vh) at design gross weight (108,000 pounds); +2.0 g/-1.0 g up to maximum level flight speed (Vh) at maximum alternate gross weight (124,200 pounds). Operational limitations are defined in terms of gross weight and airspeed limits at 2.0g, 2.5g, and 3.0g missions in Figure 5-5 of T.O. 1C-130A-1. The maximum load factor on the FAA approved N130HP airplane flight manual is 2.5g based on the FAR Part 25 (25.337) and Car 4b. (4b.210) requirements. There are no structurally limiting factors for 2.5g. The maximum maneuver load factor regardless of cargo load, gross weight, or airspeed combination with any flap deployment was 2.0g; this is based upon the historical Military Specification (C-1803-E "Stress Analysis Criteria", dated June 17, 1949), which in turn defers to CAR 4b.212. Specifically, the flight manual cautions that "The maximum maneuver load factor, regardless of cargo load, with any flap extension is 2.0g." The event aircraft wreckage evidence indicated 50 percent flap extension. The flaps on a C-130A are considered secondary structure.

....

Safety Board Performance Study
The Safety Board conducted a performance study to in part determine the operating speed and load factor on the airplane both during the retardant drop run and at the time of wing separation. Video, photographic and other evidence was used during the study to reconstruct the performance of the vehicle. The evidence indicates that the aircraft was operating within placard speeds, but outside the maneuver load factor constraint of 2.0g with flaps deployed. The results of the performance analysis of the video and photographic evidence are consistent with the aircraft manufacturer’s residual strength analysis of the normal load factor required for wing separation. The estimated load factor at the time of the wing separation was 2.4 g, based on the combined effects of the pull up maneuver and retardant release. The presence of wind gusts or turbulence would require additional load factor corrections. The airplane was operating at 146 knots, just below it’s 150-knot limit airspeed.
At the request of the Safety Board, Lockheed performed a residual strength analysis to identify the vertical load factor that would have caused the center wing lower surface to fail based on the known fatigue damage documented in the metallurgical report. Lockheed concluded from the analysis that: “The center wing failed at a load that was approximately 30 percent of the design ultimate strength of the center wing and that the presence of fatigue cracks at multiple locations and in multiple structural elements reduced the residual strength to approximately 50 percent of design limit load and compromised the fail-safe capability of the structure.” The report opined that, “Failure was likely caused by a symmetric maneuver load exceeding 2.0g during the final drop of fire retardant.”

The C130 Walker Crash NTSB Report (http://www.meta-fleet.com/articles/thec130walkercrashNTSBreport.htm)


My point is that the Java C-130 may have been in a similar flap configuration which in the case of a weakened wing structure (corrosion, fatigue) would make it weaker.

I'm not an aeronautical engineer so if I'm missing something or this is irrelevant I'm happy to be corrected.

[Old Fella]

Among the myriad of drivel that SE-EMG posted, much of it unable to be deciphered, was a comment along the lines that it "takes a while to get to 100%". That is totally incorrect for the Allison in the C130. The engine is a constant speed engine/prop combination where the engine operates at between 98-102% RPM in all phases of flight and engine power changes are almost immediate, not unlike piston engine response to throttle movement. The only restriction of throttle movement was placarded to limit Throttle from Flight Idle to Max Take-off in not less than one second. Let's hope the real reason for this accident is made known in due course so that proper action can be taken to reduce the likelihood of another similar event.

[aseanaero]

http://images.kompas.com/images.php?path=foto/20095/20/43508p.JPG

15 survivors, amazing

http://images.kompas.com/images.php?path=foto/20095/20/43479p.JPG

Left or right wing ?

[ARENDIII]

I suggest that this is the left wing showing impact damage up to the main spar with what seems to be the #2 motor.
Arend III.

[rattler46]

In "El Mundo" (Spain) read this morning an interview with two survivors:

1 described "an explosion and fire after impact".

The other reported "before impact we heard a deafening noise and then everybody was thrown about the cabin".

FWIW,

Rattler

[GreenKnight121]

OK, aseanaero... it was a combination of the two. The corrosion-aided fatigue cracking was the cause of the failure, but exceeding G-limits with the flap setting was the "trigger event".

Corrosion/fatigue reduced strength to where the excessive G-loading with flaps deployed exceeded remaining strength.

If the G-load had been at or below 2.0 , or the flaps had not been deployed, the failure might still have happened - or might have not happened... but without the corrosion-aided fatigue cracking it certainly wouldn't have, as the actual stress was still well within designed limits.


I had not seen (or didn't remember) the comments about flap settings causing G-loading outside limits... thanks for posting them.

[aseanaero]

I had not seen (or didn't remember) the comments about flap settings causing G-loading outside limits... thanks for posting them

My pleasure

[dh dragon]

Channel News Asia is today quoting the Indonesian Defence Minister as saying that the defence budget granted was only one quarter of the amount requested by the Military and is blaming the crash on poor maintainence due to lack of cash !:bored:

[chappie]

i would like to pass on my sincere condolences to those brave souls who were lost on the plane and to their loved ones left behind. RIP forever.

Finally, well done mods for getting rid of that ignorant swedish chap. Have some respect!

[Old Fella]

I must have missed something. I have not seen anything, other than conflicting witness statements, to indicate that wing separation occurred before impact. If the aircraft was on a stabilised approach with 50% flap, or even 100% flap, set there is no reason to suspect that excessive 'g' loading was applied. From what I have read it seems the aircraft touched down well short (5 nm was mentioned) of the airfield for a yet to be determined reason. Maybe it was a case of controlled flight into terrain.

[aseanaero]

Hi Old Fella ,

I've been silent the last few days because as you say there are so many conflicting witness reports on what really happened.

The weather was fine at the time which makes this all the more confusing.

There's been an investigative team there and the wreck is being cleared from the rice paddies so there should be some preliminary announcement soon.

[barnstormer1968]

RIP to all who perished, and speedy recovery to the 15 who survived (in a report I heard, but stand to be corrected, and very sorry if that is wrong).

Sorry for thread drift, but earlier posts suggested that there were a large amount of passengers on board this aircraft. While looking up some facts on line, I came across a video, which mentioned a C130 leaving Vietnam in 1975 with 452 on board, of which 32 were in the cockpit. Does anyone have any proper information on that?

As I mention above, sorry for thread on this nasty crash, and if this post is deemed inappropriate I will delete it.

[ORAC]

A LONG TAKEOFF RUN AT TAN SON NHUT (http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/boyne/article.asp?id=418)

On April 29, 1975, when the fall of Saigon was imminent. Tan Son Nhut Air Base was taking heavy fire, and its ramps and taxiways were littered with the burning carcasses of what had been the South Vietnamese Air Force. A VNAF officer, Tim Nguyen, saw a single Lockheed C-130A taxing out with people still streaming to climb on board the cargo ramp. He joined them, forcing his way on board.

At the end of the runway, the cargo door finally closed. The pilot, Major Phuong, pushed the power forward and the overweight Hercules slowly ran down the 9,000 foot runway, finally staggering off the ground at the end of the 1,000 foot overrun. The C-130 stayed in ground effect until it gained enough speed to begin a shallow climb.

The airplane was at least 20,200 pounds overweight, as it carried no fewer than 452 people, including thirty-three crowded into the flight deck. After a meandering flight of three and one-half hours, Phuong landed at U Tapao Royal Thai Air Base. When Nguyen got out, he looked at the C-130 and vowed that he would someday work for the company that built the airplane that saved his life. Today he does just that, at Lockheed Martin in Marietta, Georgia, where he is a specialist in defensive systems. The aircraft that carried him and 451 others to safety may now be found as the gate guardian at Little Rock Air Force Base, Arkansas.

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/c130registry/images/c130-560518-main.jpg

[wishmaker]

flap setting in final approach 50 % :ok:

[Flight Detent]

If my memory serves me correctly...that's NOT an 'A' model,

The most obvious difference in the 'A' was the three-bladed propellors!

'E' and on all had the four blades...

But then again, I didn't actually operate any Herc, but travelled as pax in them many times.

Cheers...FD...:)

[Old Fella]

All RAAF C130A's used only Aeroproducts 3 blade 15' diameter props. Many USAF 'A' models were retrofitted with Hamilton-Standard four blade props of 13'6'' diameter.

[barnstormer1968]

Thank you for your reply. The story sounds even more hair raising with the added detail you provided.

[herkman]

All USAF A, models were modified to four bladed props as a result of three crashes which were related to blade failure.

Regards

Col