Vanguard

[PropSyncOff]

Happen to have a great video on the final years of both the Viscount (ParcelForce) and the Vanguard. I wish I was from a slightly earlier time (!) the turbine I fly now is hardly the same thing..... one thing I have noticed in trying to find stuff on the Vanguard is how little there seems to be. I guess it was only in service a relatively short time with few airframes. Anyone here have any stories they might be able to tell about flying those wonderful birds?

I seem to notice that there are hardly any (if any at all) photos of the Vanguard passenger interior. Anybody have some pics they'd like to share or some links to find any?

[merlinxx]

You may want to try British Airways Museum Collection (http://www.bamuseum.com) No interiors, but if you send them a wizzer they may point you in the right direction:ok:

[The SSK]

My pals among the BEA General Apprentices in the late 1960s had a song about a 'dirty old Vanguard'. Anybody remember it?

[Geezers of Nazareth]

I can remember flying on a Vanguard a few times in the late 60s.

Pa worked for BEA and was elligible for cheap flights, so on two occasions we headed off to Malta for the Summer hols. This was 1967 and 1968, so just before the massive increase in 'bucket-n-spade' flights to the Costas.

In those days BEA had 4 flights a day to Malta, all operated non-stop by Vanguards. We were on the night flight, leaving Heathrow at about midnight, for a 4-hour flight to the Med on a Vanguard.

I remember that we travelled as a family, so we were allocated seats together ... and it was a block of seats around a table ... three seats facing forward, and three seats facing backwards. I've never seen such a seat arrangement on another aircraft (but I never flew in Viscounts, did they have them like this?).

Some memories from the flights ...

looking out of the window at the red wings.
my brother looking green and unwell throughout the flight ... as soon as the food tray was placed in front of him he immediately threw-up all over it!
the Pilot announcing over the PA as we flew past Mont Blanc, visible in the moonlight below us.
stepping out of the aircraft at 4am in Malta and feeling liked I'd been smacked in the face by a steaming towel.

The return flight was also at night. But the refuellers in Malta were on strike, so after dis-embarking the inbound passengers the aircraft flew off to Tripole for refuel, then back to Malta to pick-up passengers, then back to London. I was scared because I thought we wouldn't have enough fuel!

[EyesFront]

There's one at Brooklands

My first airline flight as a boy on a school exchange was BEA London to Paris by Comet, returning by Vanguard. Must have been early-mid 60s.

Nice a/c to fly in - loved those big windows.

[WHBM]

The Vanguard was a surprisingly noisy aircraft in the cruise. On London to Scotland they were audible overhead the Midlands cruising along at about 20,000 feet.

It was an aircraft that was immediately outclassed. BEA using them to the Continent were swept aside by all the European carriers who introduced Caravelles at the same time. In the end they had to use them just on domestics, or colonial routes like Gibraltar or Malta where there was no competition. Air Canada meanwhile were only able to run them on because they had a regulated monopoly on most of their routes.

The Tyne engine didn't have much commercial sccess compared to the Dart on the Viscount, and must have been difficult to maintain downroute.

However you can't really blame Vickers and the Government too much for not forecasting the arrival of short-haul jets, Lockheed ran into the same issue with the Electra.

[tristar 500]

PropSyncOff said;-
I seem to notice that there are hardly any (if any at all) photos of the Vanguard passenger interior. Anybody have some pics they'd like to share or some links to find any?

We have a couple which we will be putting up on G-APEP at Brooklands soon & when we next update our web site www.vickersvanguardmerchantman.com (http://www.vickersvanguardmerchantman.com) I will put them on there.

merlinxx was quite correct that the B.A. museum has got some pictures, these are the one`s that we have got.

tristar500

[SpringHeeledJack]

I remember flying with BEA to Dublin as a child in several of their Vanguards, again at night and seemingly always getting caught in a lot of turbulence over the Irish Sea, it seemed to go on forever...Were they unable to climb above the weather, limited by the powerplants ? I seem to recall flying in a Merepati Nusarantha (sp ?) Vanguard in the 70's from Heathrow. Am I hallucinating ?

As an aside is that a Vanguard to be heard in the background of the Beatle's song "Back in the USSR" ? I always held it to be such, but then again maybe it was a Viscount :8


Regards


SHJ

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Also known to ATC as the Guard's Van.. Have a few grey hairs left from those days as they were verrrryyy slow to roll.

I flew to Malta in 1967 in a Vanguard and spent a while up-front. The flight deck was approximately the size of a football pitch with visibility to match.

[kala87]

Unfortunately I never got to fly in a Vanguard (flew in several Viscounts though) but I have memories of watching them from the observation deck on top of the Queen's Building at LHR in the 1960's. In those days, before nose-in parking, the BEA Vanguard fleet would be coming and going all day, mostly on UK domestics and certain other short European routes such as Amsterdam and Paris, until these routes went over to Trident operation. In fact the reverberating noise of the RR Tynes was a virtual constant background racket at LHR in the period 1961 to 1967.

I always much preferred the Lockheed Electra. Better-looking and wonderful engine music from those Allisons. Quieter on climb and in the cruise as well.

[ATNotts]

You probably weren't hallucinating, I seem to recall that BEA sold at least one to MNA, and that it spent a few days parked at Birmingham (why I can't recall) with it's UK registration and in full Merpati scheme. I can't confirm exactly when, but around 1970 I would think.

Another poster will probably be able to confirm which airframe, and whether it actually flew for BEA in MNA colours.

[zed3]

First commercial flight in a Vanguard (VC9) GAPEB from Manchester to Heathrow Lstg5 student standby return !!! Flew back on one of the new BAC-111s - GAVMJ if I am not mistaken . 1969 or so . Those were the days. Why is aviation and flying so complicated and off-putting nowadays? Even I take the ferry from Europe to The Island instead of flying now ... sad. Vanguards ... marvellous beasts and the noise of those Tynes ... heavy metal.

[WHBM]

Was it the engines or the props that we so noisy on the Vanguard ? The engines are twice the power of the Darts on the Viscount, the props had much more power to handle.

As an aside is that a Vanguard to be heard in the background of the Beatle's song "Back in the USSR" ? I always held it to be such, but then again maybe it was a ViscountWell, BEA Vanguards never served Moscow, although a Merchantman freigher converion made it later when Chi-Chi the London Zoo panda was taken to the USSR for a naughty weekend with An-An, the Moscow zoo panda :) . Moscow was Comets from its inception until the time of the song. A real geek at the studios would have got a recording of an Ilyushin 18.

[SpringHeeledJack]

A real geek at the studios would have got a recording of an Ilyushin 18.

Well if the many aviation howlers that have been perpetrated on the film goers of the world by sloppy directors is anything to go by, then it would've been anything but :)

YouTube - The Beatles - Back In The USSR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-2LQGigK-0)

Any takers for the crown of audio aviatory champion 2009 ? :8


Regards


SHJ

[Props]

In 1972 I took G-APEF repainted as PK-MVJ as the first BEA Vanguard to Jakarta for Merpati.
In the end they had 4 ex BEA and 4 ex Air Canada
My ferry flight lasted 7days with and extra 3weeks Route Training.
Quite a trip.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<In those days, before nose-in parking, the BEA Vanguard fleet would be coming and going all day,>>

And most of the night too.. They didn't have curfews in those days.

[stevef]

One of the old hands at Air Bridge Carriers told me that the floor support structure was lowered by a couple of inches when Vanguards were converted to Merchantmen. Anyone know the full story?

[kala87]

Heathrow Director:

Yes, unlike today's schedules of multiple daily departures at more or less regular intervals, in the 1960's, many routes ex-LHR (or LAP in those days) to continental European destinations would have one or two daytime departures and a night flight departing at some unearthly hour such as 2300, midnight, or even 0100 or 0200! I guess the night flights were scheduled to tap into the "low-fare market" of the day by offering special night tourist prices.

Living close to the BPK VOR in those days,we would get the domestic BEA Vanguards noisily climbing away from 10L or 10R departures, sometimes 3 or 4 in quick succession, and KLM Electras departing on 28L or 28R departures. Best sound of all were probably made by the various Eastern European IL-18's. Most exotic was an Areoflot TU-114 climbing away at very low altitude off 28L or 28R, must have been around 1965. A very rare bird.

[magpienja]

Back in the USSR, sounds like a Viscount to me.

Nick.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

BEA used Vanguards for freight work during the 70s so they flew just about all night long.

I was there for the first TU-114 flight on 8 Feb 1963... amazing aeroplane.

[goofer]

And |I thought I was the only one who loved Vanguards. Greetings to fellow devotees.

Early memories...Renfrew/Heathrow/Palma in the early sixties. All night flights...sometimes with an IB Metropolitan for the return trip. No wonder I became a plane enthusiast.

Then hearing the last EDI/LHR of the day flying over my school. It took my imagination flying with it.

Later - the ill-fated G-APEC to LHR followed by the equally ill-fated G-ARPI to Brussels. Return by Sabena 727-100 OO-TSB and Comet G-APMG.

Later still - G-APEC again to Salzburg. Return in one of those fabulous "table" seats to admire Tynes at full chat against a backdrop of snowy Alps. It doesn't get much better.

And finally...a frosty, moonlit night in Kensington and the sight of an Elan Merchantmen turning finals. Not a bad farewell.

So please, Vanguard geeks, post your pics and memories. Your fellow Vanguardistas are out here!

Oh, and with respects to Electra buffs, NOTHING about the L-188 eclipses the aristocratic nose, clean-cut tail and exquisite sound of the 951 and 953.

Goofer

[norwich]

Friday night treat ! All from Colin Louries collection. All at Turnhouse 60's.
Tissues at the ready :)

Keith.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/van1.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/van2.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/van4.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/van3.jpg

[WHBM]

Here are the BEA Vanguard flights from Heathrow on a Friday in Summer 1962. Minimum of 13 aircraft required.

0010 BE 028 Barcelona
0215 BE 128 Milan
0600 BE 5006 Glasgow
0620 BE 6008 Belfast
0730 BE 4008 Manchester
0755 BE 6014 Belfast
0800 BE 336 Paris LBG
0810 BE 5366 Edinburgh
0820 BE 5014 Glasgow
0930 BE 4018 Manchester
0945 BE 865 Dublin
1000 BE 340 Paris LBG
1010 BE 5022 Glasgow
1200 BE 344 Paris LBG
1210 BE 5380 Edinburgh
1220 BE 6032 Belfast
1220 BE 196 Naples-Malta
1250 BE 4030 Manchester
1325 BE 062 Gibraltar
1330 BE 5036 Glasgow
1400 BE 348 Paris LBG
1450 BE 867 Dublin
1535 BE 4044 Manchester
1550 BE 6040 Belfast
1600 BE 354 Paris LBG
1700 BE 5050 Glasgow
1720 BE 6052 Belfast
1800 BE 356 Paris LBG
1820 BE 5404 Edinburgh
1840 BE 4052 Manchester
1920 BE 6060 Belfast
2000 BE 5062 Glasgow
2000 BE 360 Paris LBG
2010 BE 5410 Edinburgh
2050 BE 5058 Glasgow
2200 BE 364 Paris LBG
2300 BE 010 Palma
2330 BE 6072 Belfast
2340 BE 5076 Glasgow
2350 BE 5428 Edinburgh

[The SSK]

How could anyone other than its mother call that aircraft beautiful?

What's the story of the livery in the third photo - the small BEA square? And interesting to see the BA-painted rudder on the French one.

[Loki]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/loki_021/forafrica/vanguard.jpg

That`s the one at Brooklands....not my best effort.

[magpienja]

I fondly remember them as a kid of 13 in Liverpool with my VHF skymaster airband having heard the likes of bee-line echo golf Lichfield 20 level 180 Wallasey 40, and knowing I only have 10 mins to wait to hear the fabulous noise of those RR Tynes from so far humming away as it makes it merry way up red 3 to Belfast,

It was a lovely heavy sound.

Nick.

[Midland 331]

In the '70s and '80s, I lived close to Castle Don., and these aeroplanes were a familiar sound, night and day. I seem to recall that in later years, there was a an early turn off the 09 centreline given specifically to this type on departure due to complaints from Kegworth residents.

One rumbled up the airway around midnight-ish, highly distinctive, and I'm guessing it was something out of Luton for Scotland.

I had a couple of pre-uni. summer jobs at EMA, and the ground runs on the compass base at full power were impressive, and seemed to last for hours.

My last encounter with one was when camping south west of Coventry, and one coming directly over the site on a two mile final on a still night. Goosebumps.

Utterly British, sadly missed.

[India Four Two]

Keith,

That's a very evocative shot of G-APEE, which crashed at Heathrow on 27 Oct 65 on a flight from Edinburgh: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19651027-0〈=en
(http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19651027-0&lang=en)

[Albert Driver]

How could anyone other than its mother call that aircraft beautiful?

Vickers built the finest flight deck in aviation history ....... then they must have gone to the pub for lunch.

[goofer]

Thanks, Norwich! Now if you could just add the soundtrack...and the kerosene....

[Liffy 1M]

And interesting to see the BA-painted rudder on the French one.

The EAS aircraft is in the airline's later colours, into which a few of their Vanguards were painted. That is not a BA-coloured rudder, it is the way the EAS livery was. In fact if you compare it to the BA scheme you'll see that that it does not match.

[Jig Peter]

Somewhere in my "library" I have/had a report (? by a Mr. Worcester ?), possibly for BEA or Vickers, "proving" that the new-fangled jets, such as the Caravelle, could never be profitable, specially on short routes where their higher speed, making (perhaps) more rotations per day possible, could not earn more than a slower turbo-prop. To make sure, he calculated that the turbo-prop's passenger capacity also needed to be a bit higher than that of the French product.
It all looked fine in this analysis, and BEA duly ordered the Vanguard but passengers were more impressed by flying in a jet (quieter cabin ?) and the (not much) shorter flight times, at least on British internal routes. London - Nice was another matter, of course.
Not long afterwards, BEA reckoned that those routes couldn't be economical anyway, at least south of Scotland, I think, as rail would be faster. :ugh::ugh:
As an afterthought, I always thought that the EAS "fleet", static at Perpignan, would have been ideal as a Shackleton replacement, but Coastal Command sooooo badly wanted jets like the big boys ...

[Big Eric]

I took this photo on 22/03/71 during my very first flight,which was the BE5365 being operated by G-APEA from Edinburgh to Heathrow.I loved Vanguards,especially in the BEA re-square colour scheme.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/40612/3-18-2009_008.jpg

[kiwi1011fe]

I too have fond memories of my one and only flight in a BEA Vanguard as a lad in May of 1968......G-APEO London to Amsterdam

Still have the "Flight Bulletin Form" which was passed around the cabin.
Captain Webster, First Steward Mr Lavers, Altitude 15000ft at 400 mph,
passing Clacton 20 minutes after take off, arriving AMS 50 minutes after take off.

I remember entering the aircraft and taking the first window seat on the left side of the aircraft which was an aft facing club style arrangement with a table set up between us and the second row which was forward facing.

Great view of those Tynes through those magnificent huge oval windows and it was a clear blue mid morning flight so great view of the channel and the tulip fields as we came into AMS:ok:

[Out Of Trim]

A few photos of the Brooklands Vanguard G-APEP

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1BXJmcdgZEw/RVaHGsZxABI/AAAAAAAABCY/hYl4l2SUpfQ/s800/DSC_4205.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1BXJmcdgZEw/RVaHmJCXABI/AAAAAAAABDY/JPtPyYQ7eIE/s800/DSC_4214.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BXJmcdgZEw/RVaIIB7GABI/AAAAAAAABEg/B_A1fuMIYRI/s800/DSC_4230.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1BXJmcdgZEw/RVaICFyfABI/AAAAAAAABEQ/w08u7TnmGIo/s800/DSC_4228.JPG

[SPIT]

I live approx 2ml from the OLD SPEKE AIRPORT at Liverpool and even at that distance I could hear the old AIR BRIDGE CARRIERS and the BEA Vanguards/Merchantmen running their engines for T/O and just Taxying on the Airport. It was a very distinctive sound. And the Viscounts were passing over our house all the time and they had a unique sound, HAPPY DAY'S:ok::ok:.

[magpienja]

I could hear them in Runcorn were I live now.

Nick.

[Midland 331]

One still night, I listened to one start up, taxi to the 05 end at Teesside, and make a majestically heavy and booming departure close to where I stood. And I was around four miles from the airfield. Lining up, the aircraft would have been almost five miles distant.

There was something about the frequency of the noise of those props that commanded attention.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Not a beutiful aeroplane, but a handsome one. Guardsvan, Vickers Vibrator - I don't know, never having flown on one. But legend has it they were not as smooth as the Viscounts. I saw them frequently at Manchester in the '60s.

'USSR' is deffo a 'Dart' sound, not Tyne.

Once flew (standing up behind the P2) Man to Jersey on a Viscount - take off to landing - no jump seat!). Then a week later home on an F27 (G-BMAP), on the jump seat that time. The Viscount was smooth and quiet. The F27 a noisy shed. How could an aeroplane with half the number of Darts be 4 times as noisy?

Vickers got it right with the Viscount.:ok:

[The SSK]

I used to work with an (ex) long serving Chief Pilot of Aer Lingus, who had a few things to say about the Viscount - that it was a lousy design only kept in the air by the excellence of its engines.

His take on the One-Eleven was that it was over-engineered to the point of indestructibility ('machined out of a solid block of aluminium') and consequently a hopelessly uneconomical prospect for BAC. Can't imagine what he would have said about the 146.

[Dysag]

For many years Aer Lingus was regarded by the UK manufacturers as a subsidiary of the Boeing marketing department.

It must have been the sea air that made them comfortable with a nice dose of corrosion. Same for ANZ, but they were less keen when their first 737s started rotting.

Panels machined from solid, plus the best corrosion protection in the business? Can't have that now, can we?

P.S. the 1-11 wasn't heavy: lighter than the equivalent DC-9s.

[tornadoken]

With Viscount 700 well launched by 1954 and Series 800 in hand, Vickers turned logically to a Viscount Major. Bristol's Orion was terminated, leaving Tyne as the sole UK big turboprop being schemed. TCA, happy Viscount user, showed interest in the dubble-bubble layout as a QC, pax upstairs daytime, freight below overnight. BEAC had no need for Richard Worcester to tell them that turbojets would be more expensive to operate than a turboprop, for little timetable benefit on short haul. The only civil-certified type had been Ghost; in 1955 Avon was coming on for BOAC Comet 4: the high cost of finite-life turbine discs might be recoverable over long haul, 2 cycles per day, but at 6 per day, the numbers could never work. So, Sud was out of their tree offering Avon/Caravelle I/III. With 20 Vanguards ordered by BEAC and 23 by TCA, Vickers, uniquely, did forego the UK Launch Aid deal (Treasury Loan repayable by Levy taking precedence over shareholders' profit) and funded it themselves.

But both Launch Customers were protected: CP, being commercially owned, had difficulty taking revenue from State-owned TCA; BEAC didn't suffer from the reciprocal carrier, such as AF to Paris, because all were State-owned, operating in Revenue Pools. So Vanguard could be "competitive" against Caravelle so long as passenger preference did not affect the cartel carve up of route revenue. But every other Viscount User except ANA+TAA had real, competitive routes, where jets mattered. Loss of Oz to Electra destroyed Vanguard's market credibility.

[WHBM]

For many years Aer Lingus was regarded by the UK manufacturers as a subsidiary of the Boeing marketing department.
Can't have been that bad. Aer Lingus operated both sizes of Viscount, pioneer One-Elevens (which lasted in the fleet for 25 years), and then introduced a substantial fleet of BAe146s, which, like the Boeings, have only gone in the last few years in favour of an all-Airbus fleet. Dublin Airport, the old Terminal A, in the late 1990s was a veritable mass of EI 146s at peak departure times.

[Adverse Jaw]

The Vanguard had it's good points - fast, block times LHR- CDG of 1 Hour and a 20 tonne payload. Great cockpit - they used it again on the VC-10. But it also had some real drawbacks, like a nightmarish electrical system, no constant speed drives, so, frequency-wild AC (used for tailplane de-icing) then rectified for sundry other stuff and finally inverted to constant frequency AC for electronic purposes. All this performed in a huge electrical bay by massive banks of rotary inverters and TRU's. When things went wrong, a large ganged switch performed non-reversible load shedding, leaving one in almost total darkness and wondering where all those lovely instruments had gone.
The control forces were quite unbelievably heavy, so it had a two speed electric rudder trim. But a touch of high speed trim in the wrong sense for an EFTO would send one winging earthwards (thank goodness for simulators)
Deploying Climb Flap produced a vast trim change that would seemingly instantly elevate the aircraft 1000ft. This would also defeat the rather pathetic torque limited autopilot causing it's disengagement unless countered by judicious use of the two speed electric trim.
When converted to freighters, the floor was apparently stiffened, causing unexpected changes to the flexing of the fuselage in turbulence. This caused at certain frequencies of heavy chop, a diverging oscillation of such violence that 'eyeball bounce' was induced, (I hadn't heard of it either) resulting in one being unable to see any of the instruments or much else. This was all very terrifying to a young airman and my survival a testament to the strength of the aircraft. It was eventually resolved by inserting a spring in the elevator control rods of the correct stiffness.
An anecdote of a Base Training detail on the sale of the first aircraft to Merpati. On a demonstration of reversing under power, the BEA Training Capt. emphasised the importance of not using the brakes to stop, then invited the Indonesian Capt. to have a go. When told to stop, the trainee stamped on the brakes causing the nose to rise into the air. The trainer prevented the machine from settling on its tail by quick use of full power and then bollocked his embarrassed trainee. The trainee accepted all this with many bows of the head and 'Sorry Captains', then said 'Excuse me Capt' as he turned round to give his Merpati co-pilot sitting on the third seat a thorough slapping about the face.

[tornadoken]

Dysag: anyone who professed that was juvenile. Viking, Viscount, SD360, 146. Between 1946 and 31/3/64 the British State, as BOAC/BEAC Associated Companies, owned a slice, from 40% to, IIRC c.13% of EI, when they were Launch Customer for F-27 over HPR.7 Herald - who would criticise that? They were an early Customer, after Britannia, for 737-200...who...ditto? Their order for 747-100 followed BOAC's. Any BritMoan of the 737/CFM-56 or 767 orders must present finer UK contemporary products. EI was, is, a highly competent engineering organisation, in the business of buying the best for the defined operation.

[etsd0001]

Flight 2 Nov 1959

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.robinson16/Vanguard/Bryce2.jpg


Photo's take by Peter Upton @ Wisley
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.robinson16/Wisley/704.jpg

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.robinson16/Wisley/PEA.jpg

[STATSMAN]

Great photo of a bent "Moggie"!

[ZOOKER]

A wonderful aeroplane. A spotting colleague once described the noise emitted as "The Sound of British Tin". GAPEF (Merpati) did about 2 weeks of circuits at 'NX in the early '70s. Every 7 minutes this fabulous noise was heard over our school. Also, memories of them on Amber One East reporting to Preston at Lichfield East prior to calling London Airways on 135.25 en-route Daventry, using the unmistakably, 'gravelly' Vanguard radio. :ok:
Sadly, I never flew on a 'VC9', but managed the '8 and '10. The nose is slightly VC10 like.
Best wishes to all who designed, built and flew them.
We may not be very good at producing commercial successes in aviation here in the UK, but, hell, we are world leaders in producing classic airliners!
Thanks for some great pictures!

[avionic type]

I help maintain G-APEP at Brooklands we ran 2 of the engines last Saturday 13/06/09 and they sounded great but my abiding memory of Vanguard in the 60s was the 3am arrival from Malta on Christmas morning when we were hoping for an "early trap" home to be greeted with 2 or more pages of snags in the "tech log" and the message "merry Xmas " under the last snag , the urge to throw the book after the Captain was overwelming :(:(:(

[Panop]

How could anyone other than its mother call that aircraft beautiful?

What's the story of the livery in the third photo - the small BEA square? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've always thought of the Vanguard as a functional but pleasantly attractive looking beast. Definitely nothing frilly and feminine but nicely proportioned in a solid sort of way IMHO. And you can't beat that sound. Darts screeched, Allisons were nice but the Tynes had class.

As Zooker said - even the radios had an unmistakable sound with those big Rollers vibrating through the mic.

Never flew in one (got to fly in a CL-44 with 4 Tynes so I think I get the idea) but lived near, spent all my spare time at and eventually worked at LHR for a while during the Vanguard days so am more than familiar with them.

As for the small BEA square on the tail that was the original version of the red square livery until someone at BEA woke up to the fact it looked silly and unbalanced like that.

[Props]

I remember going on EA at LHR Central in 1961 when it was in those old colours.
I thought at the time it was big after the Viscount I was the flying.
However 3 months later I was on the course at the Viking Centre by the Green Man . Then the Sim and Stansted to fly the thing.

[Brain Potter]

There is some footage of a BEA Vanguard in the BBC documentary "Jim Clark - The Quiet Champion" - available on iPlayer until Sat 25th June.

BBC iPlayer - Jim Clark: The Quiet Champion (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jw9cw/Jim_Clark_The_Quiet_Champion/)

[Midland 331]

It's at about 7:40.

The programme looks fascinating, full of 8mm footage and period detail.

[2 sheds]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2157/2102505965_e1fdbc4297.jpg

G-APEM - 1967

[edinv]

:ok:My passenger connection with the Vanguard goes back to 1962. - My second ever flight was a BEA Vanguard flight LHR/BCN, probably the 0010 departure as listed in WHBMs earlier post. - My first flight was on a BEA Viscount 806 EDI/ LHR the previous day, looking again at WHBMs post on LHR Vanguard schedules summer 1962, the LHR/EDI route had a 'gap' in the afternoon, this gap filled by V806s.
Several Vanguard flights later, I rememer flying the LHR/MLA route in the summer 1971, this was the last year of service of PAX Vanguards to MLA with no real competition, as the flights were operated in association with the Malta Airlines , a BEA associated airline. - no connection with Air Malta which started in 1972.
Also in 1972 I remember flying into YUL from PIK on a BOAC flight and seeing a long line of parked-up AC Vanguards awaiting re-sale, all a bit sad. - The AC Viscounts were still however very active then.
My last ever Vanguard flight was over LHR/EDI in 1973. Trident 3s had taken over most of the flights on this route by this time, however to avoid the FEAR of landing at EDI by Trident on RWY13/31 (now 12/30) I elected to use the Vanguard!!

- Thanks to NORWICH for re-producing Colin Louries collection of Vanguards - happy days at EDI except when they diverted to GLA due X-winds!

[computer jockey]

@etsd0001 - thanks for reproducing that article from Flight about flying the Vanguard. Reading it took me back to a lost era, when an ashtray and a place to put the Daily Telegraph were mod cons!

[BEagle]

Ahhh - memories of my first ever flight as an airline passenger! BEA Vanguard from Gatwick to Gibraltar. Mid-week Tourist night flight being the cheapest option; we were going to Gib. as it was inside the Sterling area and got round some stupid government restriction....

Delayed at Gatwick due to an air conditioning snag. BEA said we could have a ham or a cheese sandwich, plus coffee or a coke. But not a ham sandwich and a coke unless we paid the extra (about 10d).....

My mother opened one of her duty-free cigarette packs during the wait - and some Himmler-clone from The Revenue pounced and demanded that duty was paid on the opened packet and that the 200 carton should be sealed. About half a crown, I think....:hmm:

Finally out to the aeroplane, to find no seat allocation - so it took a bit of negotiation for parents to sit with their children. We set off to Gib at a sedate pace; of course a flight deck visit was allowed and I stayed there until top of drop for Gib.

Overnight in Gib, then the ferry to La Linea and a bus to Malaga through little villages such as Marbella, Fuengirola and Torremolinos. Then another bus to the villa we'd booked for our holiday at Almunecar.

Trip back was more fun; my mother had decided that she wasn't going on any more buses, so we went all the way in a Seat 600 my father had gone to Granada to collect....

Gib to Gatwick was another late night flight after the trip across the bay from La Linea where we'd dropped the Seiscientos. Of course the inbound passengers knew full well that no seats were pre-allocated, so there was a mad dash across the tarmac to grab the best seats.... We arrived at Gatwick at some early hour in rain and turbulence - then a long drive home to Somerset (looong before the days of the M3, of course...).

In those days you almost needed a holiday to recover from the holiday. But the Vanguard was immaculate in its BEA markings and the crew were very friendly and welcoming.

I'm so glad I was able to have flown in those days before the dumbing down of the following decades after 'package holidays' became all the rage...:(

[handsfree]

An old (but not bold) Merchantman Capt once told me that his biggest gripe about the aircraft was the distance between the left and right hand seats, as he couldn't clip the FO around the earhole when he got it wrong.

From dim memory both the cockpits of the Vanguard and Comet would be best described as the ship's bridge, such were the palatial dimensions.

[tristar 500]

Don`t know which Comet cockpit you went on but the BEA one`s were quite crampted & that was after you had fallen down the step!!

tristar500

[handsfree]

Oh dear. Perhaps the memory dimming is worse than I thought. :\

[ACW599]

>Back in the USSR, sounds like a Viscount to me.<

When I was young and learning to play the piano, I was intrigued to find that the Viscount and Vanguard could be easily distinguished by their different harmony. An overflying Viscount generated a descending major triad, which sounded happy and bright. A Vanguard produced a descending tritone, which always sounded mournful and unresolved.

The aircraft on 'Back in the USSR' generates major harmony but it doesn't sound in the right key for a Viscount, at least to my ears. Possibly the track was varispeeded.

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Sometime soon after the Vanguard entered service with BEA, I flew as a passenger on one from Renfrew to Heathrow. Shortly after top of climb, the captain made some announcement about the need to reduce power for a short while, and then re-introduce it. This was normal procedure on the Vanguard, and we were not to be alarmed. A substantial power reduction then took place, then after a few seconds, cruise power was resumed and the flight carried on.

Apparently this was an interim procedure to do with relieving the labyrinth seals, or helical splines or somesuch thing. Years later, I met an ex-BEA Vanguard pilot who had been one of the first to fly it on the line, and remembered this. He recollected that watching the autopilot pitch trim winding round furiously nose up and then nose down as all the power came off and then back on again was jolly interesting!

[2 sheds]

ACW999

Sounds like a good musical sketch for Bill Bailey - the subtle influence of Rolls-Royce aero engines on the popular genre.

2 s

[ACW599]

>Sounds like a good musical sketch for Bill Bailey - the subtle influence of Rolls-Royce aero engines on the popular genre.<

I'm sure there's a book to be written about the relationship between the sound of machinery and music of the same period. Amongst other things the tritone (known in mediaeval times as 'diabolus in musica') was a staple of much rock music of the 60s and nowadays is heard all the time in heavy metal. Steam and diesel locomotive sounds and rhythms also seem to creep into a lot of music of the period.

Might make a nice programme for Radio 4. Any producers out there who'd like to commission me? :-)

[ONE GREEN AND HOPING]

......Sometime 1960's, did a couple or several Air Canada Vanguard trips from mainland (proably Toronto or Montreal) to Gander. Very comfortable, and seem to remember being informed by the duty know-all that Air Canada's Vanguards were designed to be operated by two pilot crew, whereas BEA's had a third pilot in the loop, much as the Gripper (Trident) did. At the time I was an F/O on ex Canadian Pacific Britannia 314s which also were built to a three pilot philosophy. This, in turn meant a more divided systems responsibility. The co-pilot had the pressurisation control plus use of the manual dump-valve. Amongst other things, the Co-Pilot also had access to a bank of three-position inverter switches just behind his seat. In our case though, we operated with a professional F/E who would probably have hit me with the tech log if it looked like I was going to make a move anywhere near what was left of his stuff...... It was an awful long time ago, but I seem to remember the F/E's being mildly underwhelmed by BEA's latest fad of putting 'boy' pilots on the systems panel. However, I guess that junior BEA pilots down-route didn't have to oversee an engine change, swap an 'O' ring on an oleo, or un-block a gate valve......

Strangest memory from a BEA Vanguard ride was from Manchester to London. At some point after Take off, a smartly turned out Northern lady of a certain age and respectability, who - in those days - (1970ish?) would likely favour trowelled on make-up and a tight hair perm set in spray-on cement, began to make her way down the cabin glad-handing the other passengers, who all seemed to be pleased to see her. Cabin crew didn't seem to mind. It eventually turned out to be a senior cast-member from Coronation Street that everybody seemed to know (except me....) Maybe these days it would be seat 1A, dark glasses and a couple of body guards......

As a boy, and making one of many trips to Switzerland for the school holidays, I was dispatched as a BEA 'Unmin'. Instead of the train, and as a special treat it was on a BEA Viscount. A brilliant experience, and one I'll never forget.....The smooth steady whine of the turbo-props - a huge window, and a seat facing a couple accross a fixed table. (does that sound quite right?.....you know what I mean) This after one other BEA trip to Edinburgh in a Viking was a different world. The couple opposite me might recall the trip for a different reason. I had to let my pet grass snake at school go, but pocketed a handful of soft ready-to-hatch eggs which I intended to house in a stone horse trough in the garden at the Swiss end. I cringe to look back, even after about 55 years, but probably after lunch and well before top of descent, I hatched out several bright green wriggly new best friends with the aid of a half razor blade that I kept for the purpose. I remember letting them get the measure of their new surroundings and jump about - maybe, slither, for a few minutes, but because the thought never occurred that any body would actually mind, I simply have no recollection of what the reaction of my adult fellow passengers was......nobody complained, anyway.

Anybody else notice that when you open up to taxi on the 747-400, it sounds just like a Viscount?

One G

....now AKA Wangreyandhopeless...

[Swedish Steve]

When I was an apprentice Ground Engineer with BEA, I was sent up to EDI one January to change a Tyne on a Vanguard that had been there a couple of days.
Normally the Vanguard was 3 engine ferried back to LHR, but the wind in EDI ahd been blowing strongly down the short runway, and it was decided that we would go up and do it.
Bit of a palavar, outside, snowing, jib crane, but got it changed.
Next morning, back to run it. It had been delivered minus the bleed valve, so we had to rob it off the old engine. The bleed valve adjuster was unavailable. So we started one engine (that had a generator), then the one we had changed (without generator), I soon saw why because as it was opened up, the ground power fell out due to the vibration. (I mean the cable fell on the ground!)
Figures taken, back to idle, power plugged back in, both engines shut down. Then open the massive petal cowlings (in the wind), give the bleed valve a couple of clicks, shut the cowlings and start again. We were doing this all day!

Two weeks later, I went on holiday to GIB and Tangier. Flew back from Tangier on the Gibair DC3, then onto the night Vanguard to LHR. We sat round the table in row 1 and 2. (First class was at the back) and played cards all night.

[Proplinerman]

I've always thought it was a Viscount on the Beatles "Back in the USSR." Too high-pitched to be a Vanguard in my opinion.

I have very fond memories of BEA's Vanguards from the 1960s, when I did quite a few flights on them from Manchester to London and back. I've worked out that my first flight must have been on a BEA Vanguard in August 1962, when we flew from Manchester to London (to pick up an Air France L1049G to La Baule). I say "worked out," because sad to say, as I was only four at the time, I've no recall of the flight or that on the L1049G (I know we flew on that because my father filmed it from the ground and I've still got the film), but I'm pretty certain that all BEA's Manchester to London flights in those days were operated by Vanguards.

I do however remember subsequent flights on Vanguards over the Manchester-London route. What a beautiful, smooth and powerful aircraft it seemed to me as a kid. And for a small child, those huge windows were marvellous.

Also, the Vanguard had a very distinctive-and to my ears very pleasant-sound; it purred, like a giant cat. I probably had my last flight in one in 1969, because I've learnt that Tridents replaced them on the Manchester-London run in December of that year.

Loved Viscounts too, but because of that first flight connection, I rate the Vanguard as my favourite classic turboprop. I was lucky enough to visit Brooklands on 13th June, when they ran up two of G-APEP's engines for about twenty minutes. Captured it all on video and I'll be posting about a three minute segment (including the start up) on Youtube as soon as I can work out how to download it and chop it into segments. Will also post the L1049G film if I can ever work out how to get that from a videotape into my computer. I'll post links here when I do this.

The Electra was a classic airliner too, but its sound just did not compare for pleasantness with the Vanguard, in my view.

[tristar 500]

Proplinerman, read your pm`s

tristar500

[etsd0001]

Glad you liked the article Computer Jockey - Here is another one from March '60

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.robinson16/Vanguard/Vanguardasses1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.robinson16/Vanguard/Vanguardasses2.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.robinson16/Vanguard/Vanguardasses3.jpg

Somewhere in this thread there was also a post asking about the colour scheme of the prototype. I found this picture in my collection
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.robinson16/Vanguard/Vanguard.jpg

[computer jockey]

Thanks again, etsd. That article was fascinating.

[Amos Keeto]

For years the only model available of the Vanguard was the 1/144th scale Airfix kit, but recently Aeroclassics have released a superb little diecast model of a BEA Vanguard. Have a look here:

Aeroclassics BEA Vanguard - 400 Scale Hangar (http://www.400scalehangar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=41421)

These are available from some specialist retailers like Aviation Retail Direct at Hillingdon or on E.Bay.

Thanks etsd0001 for that colour photo of the prototype - it was me that was searching for this and the response was that the belly and wings were a 'duck egg blue' colour, which it clearly is not! Disappointingly, it appears to be the standard light grey.

[tristar 500]

Here is the picture I posted some time ago in answer to this query.

This a model of the prototype which was used by Vickers as a promotional tool for the aircraft, as far as I know this was also the colours on the actual aircraft.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp259/tristar500_2008/PB080238.jpg?t=1226414238

[kiwibrit]

The Vanguard was a surprisingly noisy aircraft in the cruise. On London to Scotland they were audible overhead the Midlands cruising along at about 20,000 feet.

Rather noisy inside, too - as I recall from a flight from Heathrow to Aldergrove. My first productive job was on the Line at Brize Norton, where the Belfast had the Tyne engine. Oil consumption was a bit of a problem - though I think we may have had tight limits stemming from the days when air-to-air refuelling was specified. So my guess is that the Tyne was not much of a problem on the Vanguard.

The electric system referred to seems similar to that of the Belfast, Britannia and Victor Mk1.

[rog747]

one of my first flights in 1964 was LHR to BCN night flight for 2 weeks to malgrat de mar on the costa brava with mum and dad

a BEA vanguard out and a british eagle britannia home

dad said the YN night tourist fare was £29 guineas

went to malta and gib too (all the colonial places lol)

we always seemed to sit at the ' club table'
the tridents had that too (well the bks ones did)

[Proplinerman]

Following on from my post above, I've today worked out (with assistance from a friend) how to download my camcorder recording of G-APEP running up two of her engines at Brooklands on 13th June just gone. I've today posted it on You Tube and here is the link:

YouTube - Vanguard Engines Running (http://tinyurl.com/mdsgpl)

It actually lasts nearly ten minutes tho and it's high quality (it took over five hours to upload!) My friend edited out about nine minutes in the middle of it.

Enjoy and please let me have your feedback.

[Entaxei]

I worked on the hangers for a number of years on production control, including on the Vanguard conversion, re Merchantman floor height - yes they were lowered to accommodate the size of the std containers then being used, we also had to modify the fuse structure to take the door frames and additional loading. Each conversion lasted some weeks, it was a full stripdown.

The question about engine noise, there was a problem with sync, we could never get full snchronisation with all four, from memory it was No 2 that was always slightly out giving a pulsing throb through the airframe. As an aside, on each check we tested the wing structure flex, jacking each wing tip up 13 foot, we never did work out how to check downward flex. :ok:

Cheers

[avionic type]

As the one on the headset for that engine run , may I thank you for your noble efforts with the film as was said Its a bit of a thrill even to old people like myself who maintained them in anger during their hayday in the 60s and 70s with B.E.A. to get at least 2 of them running though looking at no3 we were a bit over the top with the engine oil when filling it with all that smoke but never mind they ran and all the bits worked , and we are glad everyone enjoyed it .
by the bye is there anyone in PPruneland know of anyone with 1 or2 electric starter motors for a Tyne propping open the garage doors the reason 1and 2 arn't running is the lack of said motors the originals are beyond repair and overhaul. and of course WE have no spares.
thanks once again

[tristar 500]

Proplinerman, As the man on the other end of the headset from "avionic type" I would like to add my thanks for posting the video.

I cannot upload things to youtube & one of our chaps spent hours putting a short one about the taxi from 2004!!

View that at YouTube - eptaxi1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytTyAdduPzY)

tristar 500

[Proplinerman]

Thanks for the compliments. Had a look at the 2004 video-superb! It actually took over five hours(!) to upload my video, because it was 2gb in size, but I think it was worth it. There's another video on You Tube, shot the same day, by someone standing behind me and you can actually see me shooting my video throughout that!

[pigboat]

Thank you Proplinerman. Excellent video. My one experience with the Vanguard was a trip from Montreal to London Ontario, with TCA, in 1965. I was totally impressed with the smoothness of the flight, my experience being on DC-3's up to that point.

[Proplinerman]

"For years the only model available of the Vanguard was the 1/144th scale Airfix kit, but recently Aeroclassics have released a superb little diecast model of a BEA Vanguard. Have a look here:

Aeroclassics BEA Vanguard - 400 Scale Hangar (http://www.400scalehangar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=41421)

These are available from some specialist retailers like Aviation Retail Direct at Hillingdon or on E.Bay."

Actually, Western Models did a very nice 1:200 diecast model of G-APER in BEA's classic red squares livery-I've got it, tho the Aeroclassics model looks like it equals it. Was also very sad to find, when I Googled Western Models, that they've apparently gone bust. Their models were very expensive, but very good.

[Proplinerman]

I've just found this film on You Tube, shot at Glasgow Renfrew in 1965 and PEP features in it!

YouTube - Glasgow Airport at Renfrew, 1965 Vintage (http://tinyurl.com/ptqwol)

[Proplinerman]

Here are links to a couple of Vanguard photos I took at Manchester in 1972. Invicta and a BEA Merchantman.

BEA Vanguard G-APEM, Manchester, 24-6-72i on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/ylgms78)

Invicta Vanguard G-AXOY at Manchester 3-9-72 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/yhcbv6p)

[magpienja]

In that awful livery that BEA went to.

Nick.

[Skylion]

Good though the Vanguard was from the economics point of view it should probably never have been built. With just 20 sold to BEA and 23 to Air Canada it lost Vickers/BAC a packet. BEA were offered a short range version of the Britannia 300 ( designated 250) which would have been similar in performance and taken Britannia production over the 100 mark but were emotionally wedded to Vickers after the success of the Viscount. BEA also miscalculated the jet effect on short haul customers and rejected the Caravelle. They then opted for the barely economic 4 engined 100+ seater Comet 4B which they introduced in 1960 as a stopgap before the arrival of the scaled down 88 seat Trident 1s whose economics were again marginal due to the downsizing-at BEA's behest,-from the original capacity of around 112. Boeing, who had,thanks to de Havilland's naive sharing of the original Trident plans as part of a discussion about possible license production in the USA, knew from this gratuitous sharing of information that around 112/120 seats was the right formula, so walked away from DH and produced the 727-100 which sealed the fate of the Trident. In short, the Vanguard was just one of a series of BEA planning disasters which also impacted severely on the longer term fate of British civil airliner production.They almost got back on track by suppporting the BAC 211, but that was ditched by Heath to burnish Britain's credentials with the fledgling EU.

[evansb]

Barbados, 1964.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/TCA_Vanguard_May_64b2.jpg

Montreal/Dorval CYUL ?
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/9T28-vg1.jpg


Germany, I think..
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/BEA-Vanguard1.jpg

[Proplinerman]

Magpienja: yes, I much preferred the BEA red squares livery, but it pre-dated my time as a planespotter and aircraft photographer, but I do remember it from the 1960s.

Skylion: very accurate analysis of BEA's disastrous impact on the British aviation industry post war-with the exception of the Viscount.

EvansB: great photos, thanks for posting.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Vanguard however, it will always remain my favourite classic turboprop airliner.

[etsd0001]

This must be the world's worst Vanguard model
http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/e6/65/26_1.JPG

Yours for only £65.00 on ebay Built to order

[1970s Spotter]

WTF! It's got Superfortress wings, an ATP tail and as for the cockpit area. . .

[etsd0001]

The cockpit area reminds me of an Armstrong Whitworth(?) Ensign

[tornadoken]

RR was given Treasury Launch Aid for Tyne, but Vickers' Board chose not to ask for subsidy in 1955 when launching Viscount Major against a BEAC intent for 20. This was the sole substantial risk investment by the UK Aero industry: all other types were cushioned by Govt. Dubble-bubble was to give Combi-style overnight freight for capital-free incremental revenue and TCA cited that as decisive in its selection. So, it's sad to say it "should never have been built", but clearly so, as Vickers is reported to have lost £16.7Mn. on it. Why?

Early-1955. Viscount has transformed air transport; turbojets are seen as too dear for medium-haul, though France is doing Caravelle; turbofans are merely bench exercises. Douglas has declined to do a turboprop DC-6 (why not?); Lockheed similarly chooses not to do a turboprop Connie (why not?), but in 1954 to initiate L.188 on the engine funded for C-130A. By late-1957 USN for MR has chosen it...and so have solid Viscount operators KLM, Ansett, TAA, Cathay Pacific. Vickers-Armstrongs was slow to certify the type, entering service in TCA Feb.1961/BEAC 1 March,1961 after Caravelle {SAS 26/4/59}, Comet 4B {BEAC,1 April,60), L.188 {12 January,1959} and Ilyushin Il.18 {20 April,1959}. Maybe Vickers Board knew loss of the Oz business was terminal and chiselled their spend.

[DCDriver]

The cockpit area reminds me of an Armstrong Whitworth(?) Ensign

Fairchild Packet, even?

I too have a soft spot for Vanguards, some of my first flights were on 'EP & 'EN. I lived as a boy near the "GM" ndb (BHX) and the BEA Vanguards flew up the 328 radial from Garston to GM, then Lichfield. I can hear those Tynes now!
One of these days I'll scan my photos and post them.:)

[Proplinerman]

"One of these days I'll scan my photos and post them."

Please do!

Also, please can someone tell me how I reproduce a quote in the box that some of you use? I'm just copying and pasting, then putting quote marks around the sentence.



On the post creation page there are tool icons right above the window where you type in your text. The 3rd one from the right is the quote tool. you can either highlight the text you pasted in and click on the tool or click on the tool and past your text in between the ][

[Chris Scott]

Quote from Proplinerman (April09/1840z):
"...please can someone tell me how I reproduce a quote in the box that some of you use?"

I wouldn't bother: our way is just as quick, and probably more versatile! ;)

[Vick Van Guard]

I have got some video of 'Superb' practising short field landings at EMA and then her final departure for Weybridge somewhere.
Plus lots and lots of photographs taken at the airport over the years.

But then I would have...:ok:

[Dr Jekyll]

Boeing, who had,thanks to de Havilland's naive sharing of the original Trident plans as part of a discussion about possible license production in the USA, knew from this gratuitous sharing of information that around 112/120 seats was the right formula, so walked away from DH and produced the 727-100 which sealed the fate of the Trident.

There was also the proposed twin engined Trident replacement that looked remarkably like the 757.

[purplehelmet]

saskatoon9999.
as a school boy back in the late 70s i stayed in the south of france (beziers) on holiday, we went for a day trip over to spain and passed the airport at perpignan, at the time i think EAS were based there, must have been at least 6 or 7 vangaurds in EAS coulours parked outside their hanger,not sure if they had been retired and waiting to scraped,must have been 1977/78.

[tristar 500]

Vick Van Guard

Please see your PM,s

tristar 500

[Jorge46]

In 1966 I was checked out as an F/O and fell in love with that beautiful airplane.
It was a time of growth in the airline and promotions were in full force. F/O's who were in the promotion stream were given the Captain course then had to accrue about 200 hours line flying in the left seat. The promotional airplane was the Viscount but the training department had a back log and was working hard to keep up. To speed things up Vanguard F/O's, slated for promotion, were given a left seat course on that airplane and were to accrue about 150 hours before returning to the Viscount for the final amount of line flying. For someone who loved flying that Vanguard, that had to be one of the ultimate pleasures of a flying career.
Thanks evansb for those nice pictures of the TCA Vanguard.
Cheers, G

[Yellow Sun]

I was lead to believe that the Vanguard was one of those proposed as the airframe for the Shackleton replacement. Although I regarded the handling characteristics of the Nimrod a bit marginal in some respects for the maritime role, the accounts I have read on previous posts on this thread lead me to think that the Vanguard might have been even less desirable. However I should be interested if anyone can confirm that the Vanguard was in fact considered and if so what the reasons were for its losing out to the other contenders for the contract.

YS

[Jig Peter]

Anent the Perpignan (European Air Services ?) Vanguards ... I used to see these aircraft quite often on drives to the Collioure/Port Vendres area, and wondered why there seemed to be no takers ... EAS seemed at the time to be a bit "non grata" with the authorities, which I assumed to be why the aircraft didn't fly, but I wondered a lot why the RAF didn't take them up for ASW duties, given the (visual) mess they were making of the Comet/Nimrod. I ascribed it to the Nimrod being a jet (and FOUR !!! - engined) which must have thrilled Coastal Command after all those years grinding through the ether with the Shackleton ... Pity, though, because there was something "just right" about the Vanguard, even if it really shouldn't have been built.
I once had a copy of a report by, I believe, one Mr. Worcester, who cogently "proved" that turbo-props were "right" and jets like the Caravelle were "wrong" - I also think (but that's more vague) that said Mr. W. was also very vociferous in various printed media, and no doubt in person with the "right people", that the A300 and A310 were the wrong aeroplanes at the wrong time and that UK Gov ought to have nothing to do with the whiole Airbus idea - The Economist in its Go for Boeing phase loved him ...:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Mods: Sorry for the digression !

[Kieron Kirk]

OR.350/Spec.MR.218.
H.S. Comet with four RB.168 jet engines.
Avro 776 with three RR Medway.
A version of the DH Trident.
A further development of the Shackleton.
Breguet Atlantic.
Versions of the Vanguard and the VC-10.

The OR and Spec. were then replaced by AST.357.
The Short P.D.69 and various versions of current UK airliners.

As AST.357 could not be in service before 1978, a quicker solution was ASR.381/MR.254 written around the Breguet Atlantic as having the minimum acceptable performance. The final contenders were the HS.801(the Nimrod) and a variant of the Trident the HS.800.

The rest is history, one could possibly conclude that BAC were not prepared to indulge in a paper-chase “organised” by the usual suspects.
Ciarain.

[Dr Jekyll]

A "further development of the Shackleton" sounds intriguing. Turboprops perhaps?

[DC10RealMan]

I flew on an Air Bridge Merchantman on a familarisation flight from EMA-Cologne-EMA utilising the Flight Engineers seat. I did not stop smiling for a week-all those switches, dolls eyes displays, dials. A real mans aeroplane and none of this "girly" glass cockpit nonsense!!

[tristar 500]

DC10RealMan said
I flew on an Air Bridge Merchantman on a familarisation flight from EMA-Cologne-EMA utilising the Flight Engineers seat. I did not stop smiling for a week-all those switches, dolls eyes displays, dials. A real mans aeroplane and none of this "girly" glass cockpit nonsense!!

I have to ask "what Flight Engineers Seat"

There was no provision for a Flight Engineer on the Vanguard.

In fact your company flew them as they were intended with only two crew. Unlike my company where the pilots were frightened by the thought of "only" two crew & flew with three pilots even as a freighter!!

Best seat in the house, higher than the other two & unable to reach anything!!

tristar 500

[Proplinerman]

Forgive me if I've already posted this story here.

Some years ago, a friend visited our house, saw my Western model of a BEA Vanguard and remarked that in the late 1980s, while working for Elan Air Cargo?, he had flown from EMA to Cologne on the flight deck of a Vanguard-for the sole reason that his boss was too mean to pay for a commercial flight for him.

Needless to say, as a person totally uninterested in aircraft, it meant nothing to him, but I would damn near have killed to have had that experience!

My friend is a football fanatic and I reflected, a few years later, when I had to inspect Umbro's HQ (I'm a surveyor), that for me it was nothing (my eyes glaze over instantly at the mention of football), but he would probably have damn near killed to have had my experience. Pity we couldn't swap.

[Jorge46]

Not trying to get into arguments, but the Vanguard was designed and built as a 3 man crew airplane. TCA did not want to utilize a 3rd crew member so they covered over that part of the overhead panel that was accessible by the 3rd man and removed the seat. Later, a few instruments were exposed so they could be read 'inflight'. It was flown by two pilots for the time it was in the company, not by design but by desire!
G

[DC10RealMan]

If it was not designed for a Flight Engineer it should have been. A proper Flight Engineer who flew in World War II, smoked a pipe, smiling indulgently at young whipersnappers and gave you a slap around the head because he could.

[mustbeaboeing]

Vanguard Memories....

First Flight as pax Early to Mid 1960's on BEA Vanguard, Renfrew, the then Glasgow airport, to London Heathrow.
Remember seeing BEA Argosy freighters on arrival. Very exciting for a 8/9 year old.

Skipping forward to late 1970's or early 1980's, when as working in Ops for UK Holiday airline, I used to take Jump Seat rides from Luton (LTN/EGGW) to Glasgow, Abbotsinch by then, (GLA/EGPF) to get to Scotland on Air Bridge (Carriers) night newspaper flights.
As I was keen/interested, one flight I took along a NAV LOG for the same route but for a Boeing 737-200.

The Vanguard/Merchantman took about 9/10mins longer for the same route, burnt A LOT LESS fuel,
and in it's pax config carried 139 pax, from memory, as opposed to 130 on the Boeing....

As many viewers of this forum will remember, the Airlines had moved on from Propeller aircraft to shiny jets in those days for pax...

But we can all see that economics have forced them back to the likes of first ATP's and nowadays DHC-8 types for these sort of sectors..

A different era....


I pose one question for those in the know.....

Whilst sitting at the holding point, pre Take-Off, one of the Captains working for AB(C), possibly Kay, would 'deselect' the Generators,
from three of the engines. The reduction of fuel burn on these engines was marked. Am I correct in my memory...?

[tristar 500]

Jorge46 said,
Not trying to get into arguments, but the Vanguard was designed and built as a 3 man crew airplane. TCA did not want to utilize a 3rd crew member so they covered over that part of the overhead panel that was accessible by the 3rd man and removed the seat. Later, a few instruments were exposed so they could be read 'inflight'. It was flown by two pilots for the time it was in the company, not by design but by desire!
G

I hate to contradict you, BUT, Our aircraft is at the home of Vickers Armstrongs. There is one of the design team on our crew looking after G-APEP. It was designed as a two crew operation after the success of the Viscount, also two crew.

The overhead panel has nothing on it that is needed in flight being mainly fire bottle indicatore Tail deicing information, Oxygen contents etc.

I will take a picture tomorrow & post it for you to see.

The only reason for three crew in the UK, prior to ABC/Hunting Clan buying them in 1980 was the BEA crew insisting on the third man, even when they were converted to freighters in 1970. In fact after they were converted he actually got a job because the coffee urn was behind him so he got to serve it!!!!

tristar 500

Edited for double cut & paste!!

[Steve Bond]

You might be interested to know that a beautiful (mahogany?) wind tunnel model of the Vanguard survives in our wind tunnel laboratory at City University.

[Jorge46]

Hi Tristar 500!

I have seen the pictures of G-APEP on ‘Airliners.net’ and really admire the work that’s done to preserve that last remaining example of the Vanguard. Congratulations to you and the team who look after her.

If you say there is a member of the design team there then maybe my memories are fading about that 3rd seat. I do know that TCA’s airplanes did have that seat and it was removed. The seats were surplus and eventually were utilized in a training device called ‘The Miles Trainer’. It was a glorified Link trainer type of thing and two seats were used in each device. Basically, it was used to train on the FD108 Flight Director system which was coming into use. I am pretty sure BEA’s airplanes were delivered with the 3rd seat and the airplane was crewed that way.

Before the delivery of the Vanguard in Canada much discussion was held with the Canadian MOT in regard to crewing the aircraft. TCA wanted 2 crew. The MOT relented with the proviso that F/O’s would hold an Airline Transport Pilot Licence. At the time, it wasn’t company policy for F/O’s to hold that licence until time of promotion to Captain. That requirement resulted in a large number of pilots scrambling to get the licence.

You’re right! There was nothing on that overhead panel that needed attending to in flight and couldn’t be reached by the forward crew anyway. I believe we had a cutout for ‘turbine bearing temperature’ gauges and maybe a couple of other things that were recorded in the log book for engine readings in flight.

Again, congratulations on the preservation of G-APEP. I hope she remains in good condition for many decades.

Cheers, J

[tristar 500]

Have a look at us on www.vickers-vanguard-merchantman.com (http://www.vickers-vanguard-merchantman.com)

tristar 500

Mods sorry for the advert!!

[Vick Van Guard]

One for Tristar 500. G-APEP circa 1983 Field Aircraft Services Hangar, East Midlands Airport.



http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/JohnManson/G-APEP.jpg

[Hanslope]

I don't post very often but this thread is bringing back some nice memories.

As a BEA Commercial Apprentice in 1971 my first Vanguard was G-APET back from Gibraltar to Heathrow in November that year. Four of us had been there for the weekend and as usual, ran out of money so arrived at the Airport broke and starving. Only to be told that there had been a cockup on the catering front and that as staff pax we were welcome to fly but that there was not enough meals for us. We sat at the front in a block of 4 seats around a table and the lovely ladies in blue took pity on us and asked all the passengers if there was any bit of their meals they didn't want there were us lads who would be most grateful. In the end from memory we had about 15 Prawn cocktails, 10 cheese and bikkies and a few main courses between us!!!

My last flight in the Guardsvan was June 1973, last flight of the day from Jersey to London. No problems for staff travel this time, as all 18 passengers and a baby boarded the aircraft at 2045. I sat at the back this time, remember those lovely big windows and the great unrestricted view down and along the wing? It was a lovely summer evening, sitting back with a whisky and ginger in my hand as we circled around the Epsom stack watching other aircraft both above and below me, it was simply wonderful.

Lovely to see the Vanguard well looked after at Brooklands, keep up the good work chaps

[Vick Van Guard]

Did someone mention 'ET'.

In storage after leaving BEA service and awaiting maintenace before joining the Air Bridge fleet.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/JohnManson/scan0001.jpg

Fresh of a check four and a new paint job.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/JohnManson/scan0003.jpg


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/JohnManson/scan0002.jpg

[tristar 500]

Vick Van Guard,

Many thanks for all the pictures, it`s nice to know that somebody else loves them as well!!

tristar 500:ok::ok:

[evansb]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/AA0652371.jpg

[Proplinerman]

Here's a clip from one of my very favourite films, "The long Good Friday," showing Harold Shand's (Bob Hoskins) arrival at LHR on a Concorde, right at the start of the film. Watch the Concorde closely and you'll see a Merchantman with its cargo door up, in the background. Was this the final year of BA Vanguard op's?

YouTube - Long Good Friday - Harold's Arrival (http://tinyurl.com/2wbreqo)

[scotbill]

The Vanguard (my first command - sniff) was a much under-rated aeroplane. Capable of carrying 139 pax (same as the Trident 3) it was one of the fastest propeller aeroplanes ever built. Although the cruise TAS was only 360kts, this made little practical difference on domestic services. For example, my best chock-to-chock time on Belfast-LHR on the Guardsvan was 59 minutes. Achieved the same time on the Trident and the B757, but never beat it.
(The official block time on Gla-Lhr was some ten minutes less than for jets in today's busier ATC environment).

One of the reasons was a TO performance which meant you used the handiest RW intersection. The other was the descent speed - VMO was comparable with the jets. As the archives from Flight confirm, the aircraft had been flight-tested to 400kts IAS. Apparently one test pilot averred that, above 400 indicated, he preferred the Vanguard to the Valiant! Vne in service was up to 330 IAS and London ATC found it necessary to put up a notice to controllers to be aware that Vanguards could often outrun Boeings on the descent.
All this without hydraulic controls. In fact the faster the IAS, the more precise the aircraft felt.

They were also independent of many ground services in that they had their own airstairs and were capable of 3-point turns. These assets proved invaluable in the industrial anarchy of the 1970s.

Those massive props had some unusual side effects. Landing in a strong headwind, going into Ground Fine Pitch was like running into a brick wall.
It took me some time to discover that there was also a significant gyroscopic effect in the flare. This was particularly noticeable in Xwinds. A Xwind from the right would almost disappear in the flare - whereas that from the left would mysteriously increase catching many an unwary aviator by surprise. (Myself included till I sussed out what was happening).

Sadly for the Vanguard, its late entry to service was in 1961 - the same year as the Comet 4b. Its economic advantages were overlooked in the beauty contest.

SB

[twochai]

Although the cruise TAS was only 360kts, this made little practical difference on domestic services.

There are a couple of turboprops in service today which continue to prove the case for turboprops pioneered by the Mudguard: The Bombardier Q400 (nee, deHavilland Dash 8) and the Piaggio P-180, which cruises at 402 KTAS, with Mmo .70, both continue to set block times on short hauls at least as good as comparable jets, with much lower costs.

[Proplinerman]

I've now created a Vanguard group on Flickr, to which I've uploaded most of the photos of Vanguards that I have. Other people can upload too-please feel free to do so. Here's the link:

Flickr: Vickers Vanguard (http://www.flickr.com/groups/1448337@N25/)