Lufthansa pay talks: Management makes first "offer"

[wonderbusdriver]

Well...

Today they finally came across with some numbers...

3.5%.

OK to be precise:

3.5% + up to 1 months salary depending on company performance (with 12 salaries per year...)

They´re asking for it.

And they´ll definitely get it!

[This message has been edited by wonderbusdriver (edited 02 April 2001).]

[exeng]

Oh dear, with that kind of offer on the table trouble will be looming.

I wish you all the best and will looking at developments with great interest.


Regards
Exeng

[Roadtrip]

What an insulting offer!

[Charly]

Oh my...

I guess we´ll have to shove it up their as.es really deep, then!

Their asking for it........

Sad,sad

[Dr Tre]

Those Lufthansa management guys obvoiusly don't surf pprune much, with an offer like that they only have to read a couple of topics to see whats coming next!

Go Guys!!!!

[exeng]

What is the definitive expected response from the union?

i.e what is the strategy from now on?

I'll supply an e-mail address if you wish to keep it private.


Regards
Exeng

[BavarianBoy]

DOD... Dear oh Dear....

Once again the management misjudge the feelings of their own employees...
Go for it guys, stay focused and play hard... because they will..stay focused that is only they will play dirty..

[wonderbusdriver]

strategy?!...

Looks like our guys told them to better the offer by last night. - They didn´t, so the union has declared the talks have faltered (while management continues to declare their willingness to talk, negotiate, blablabla....).

If the talks have "faltered", the union is able to vote on an unlimited str!ke.
If at least 66% (don´t kill me if the number isn´t exact)of LH-Pilots organized in the union vote for such measures, they will become legally possible.

If that doesn´t convince the 6th-floor, we´ll actually have to do it and this time we will!

[Bruno]

Don t give a stuff about media pressure. Been there done that and at the end of the day what should you care about what Herr Müller feels.
I know it sounds kind of easy to say like we re behind you, but in all honesty we ve had to take so much s ....t from everyone saying look at those good boys at Luft, they ain t complaining and they make less than you. Complain all you like Leute and get that raise.

[KADS]

Hope you all stick together and go for it. Good luck!!!

[COWPAT]

Go for it.

My airline hasn't seen a pay rise in the last 5 years but I sure as hell hope you get yours. It can only be good for all of us.
Stick to your guns, we're right behind you.

[wonderbusdriver]

latest update:

It´s even worse than I thought...

The proposal goes as follows:

The raises are between ca 1,4% and 7,5% depending on where the benchmark study came up with the most discrepancies.

The current money for 13 salaries p.a. shall be paid in 12.

If the profit exceeds 1 million Euros it`s 1 monthly salary on top (ca. 8,3%) - which would be the case for Y2K.

Here comes the best part:

The contract is supposed to run 4 (!!) years with a raise according to an inflation index each year.

If you take it to the extreme you can somehow come up wuth the 16,x% which they gave to the press while our guys were still studying the offer.

The talks have been declared "failed" by the union, because management couldn´t come up with something better yesterday.
Starting next week we´ll vote on a strike.
The ballots will be counted on May 3rd.

Until then we´re still legally able to pull off somthing similar to last week.

If 70% vote "YES" on further actions, we´ll do it.

They have declared war, that´s my impression...

(edited some typos)

[This message has been edited by wonderbusdriver (edited 03 April 2001).]

[LD3]

Hello!

After watching this thread and the general news in Germany about the pilots salaries at LH for a while I just wanted to take the opportunity to hear something more from the pilots side in an attempt to understand the unions motivation.

Ít may probably sound naive for you, but I am working as airline ground staff, am in the 8th year after finishing college, work at least 50h per week (i.e. around 200h a month, compared to the 85h which the German pilots union "Vereinigung Cockpit" calculates for a new first officer), but I can only dream of a salary of 106000DM per annum which the union mentions as starting salary for a FO...
A close friend of mine works as Stewardess, has also a very busy and responsible job and also does just earn a fraction of these salary dimensions.

While I have full understanding that the offer of 3.5% plus a salary adaption according to the inflation rate over the next 4 years is indeed anything but a generous offer and should not be accepted, I am wondering whether the 35% increase are not somewhat exaggerated in the other direction?

So, even though some may now start to flame me, I would be absolutely interested (and this is NOT ironically meant) why pilots cannot live with salaries which range between 106000 and 325800DM, even considering that you all have a super-unique job which is totally different from a normal boring office job.

Thanks for any constructive input!


[This message has been edited by LD3 (edited 03 April 2001).]

[Hot Wings]

Hello LD3,

I would like to answer some of the points which you raised in your post, even though I don't work for LH.

When comparing hours worked, you must remember that although an F/O may fly 70 or 80 hours a month, this doesn't actually equate to time spent at work preparing for flights, de-briefing, time on stand-by or just waiting around airports. On a short-haul fleet many duty days can be 10-12 hours long but only involve 5 or 6 hours of flying.

When comparing salaries, you must realise that an airline pilot is directly responsible for millions of dollars worth of company assets ie. approxiamtely $200,000,000 for a B747-400, and hundreds of lives. Pilots also have to pass 2 medicals, 2 simulator checks and a route check every year. Although your stewardess friend does have a difficult job, it doesn't require the same level of skill or training and, lets face it, nobody will die if she makes a mistake.

LD3, the issue of pilot's pay is not about whether or not we are able to live on a particular salary (I'm sure that you were able to live on whatever money you had as a student!) but about being paid what you are worth.

I wish everybody at Lufty the best of luck in your dispute. Lets hope that airline management in Europe will start to realise that we want to be highly paid for a highly responsible job. And, that their airlines grind to an expensive halt without us.

Regards,

Hot Wings

[Roadtrip]

Pay has nothing to do with "worth." If that were the case pilots would be making twice as much. It has to do with what you negotiate. Management would pay pilots train driver salaries (like they do in the UK), if they could get away with it. That's why there is a UNION.

BTW, would a early-mid career Luft pilot please calculate his hourly pay based upon how many hours he's away from home during the month? I work for a US major and mine is about US$12 per hour. How about it, LD3. Do you make more than that? An important aspect of pilot pay is that of "industry standard." Are Lufthansa pilots paid similarly to their colleages in the US and France, for instance?

Also, how long would it take a pilot to learn your job? -- a few weeks maybe? How long and how much money would it take you to earn an Airline Transport Pilot's License, gain the necessary flying time, and even just qualify for an interview for a Lufthansa First Officer's job?? --Answer: Probably at least US$100,000 and at least 5-7 years (after university degree, of course).

Do be fooled by some bogus high figures that management quotes concerning pilot pay. Those are usually the very top tier pay scales that VERY few pilots are at. That is a favorite trick that management uses to divide employee groups, turn public opinion against employee group, and split the group from within. How much do you think senior management makes at Lufthansa - or at least the part that's not hidden from view?

Best of luck to the Lufthansa Pilots-- Let's see you guys set a new standard for professional pilot compensation!!


[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 04 April 2001).]

[FockeHeinz2]

Many of my friends from the school and university are in very high paying careers in finance and computing. I have worked very hard to become a pilot and I am dedicated to my profesion. I should be payed the same as my friends

[LD3]

Hot Wings - thanks for your detailled reply. Although I still think that a Stewardess has more responsibility for the passengers safety than just serving them drinks, I got your point and wish you (respectively in this case the LH pilots) good luck with the target to reach a fair deal!

Roadtrip - Sorry, but I didn't take the salary scales from some LH management propaganda flyers, I took them directly from the German pilots unions website. There the union features press articles which contain exactly the pay dimensions which I mentioned. They also write that an aspiring LH pilot who is on the LH Flight training school has to pay 80000DM (about 35000USD I would estimate) himself for his ab-initio flight training. A fellow of mine (without university degree) has started at LH flight training in August 1999 and is expected to be on the right hand seat of an A320 somewhere later this year, so the evolution from a pedestrian to a LH FO took him about 2 years.

And - to finish your comparison : If I calculate all hours of working time, travel to/from the office, business trips, work at home together, I will certainly end up with less than 12 USD/hour, but am still happy.

Nevertheless I absolutely agree that pilots do a job with a very high level of responsibility, need to have their skills present at any moment of their working time etc. and therefore deserve a good payment!

My only concern is that the union's demand of 35% pay increases for a group which is already amongst the best paid around (at least in our company) will not be well perceived by the public audience. When you tell e.g. a normal passenger that he and his family can't go on holiday because the pilots (who earn 5-6x more salary) strike for a 35% increase, there will be no understanding/support at all.....



[This message has been edited by LD3 (edited 04 April 2001).]

[LZ-TUO]

OK Guys....as a non-airline employee I watched the topic long enough and think I just have to say what I say.

You're talking about minimal salary of DM 106000/year for a young F/O and mention the following:

-immense responsibility
-work times, away from home, standbys (and so on)
- 5 to 7 Years invested into becoming the ATP/L

OK, you think it's enough to be worth the money you ask for. Let's make a little comparison with a similar, highly(if not more ) loaded with responsibility job as a medical.

In Germany, a young College absolvent who is becoming a medical must pass through the so-called AIP and PJ - the hardest years in the life of an young doctor. Wanna know, what a young AIP becomes after AT LEAST 6 YEARS invested in becoming an AIP:

-at least 3 times/week 24h hours duties(no kidding, the stuff you watch on ER is NO BULL)
-the responsibility of having human lives in his hands with (often) noone to help him. Let's get cynical - if you make an error as pilot, you die(mostly). A young AIP must live with the mistake for the rest of his/her life.

And what becomes the young AIP for all his efforts? Wanna know?

JUST CHEAP DM 40 000/year. And that's the upper limit.

Not to mention, the 24h-duties are duties THROUGHOUT, which means: YOU HAVE TO STEAL YOU A FIVE MINUTES IF YOU NEED THEM(often on the risk someone you're responsible for loses his life in this time). You talk about long times absence from home and standby? and what you're doing in this time?

So, please come back on ground and look around. It might be that you find my posting offensive, but my opinion is, some of you have lost all touch with reality. Do you think, you're really worth twice or three (or more) times more as a young surgeon?

LZ-TUO
(someone who set off for the life of a medical)

[This message has been edited by LZ-TUO (edited 05 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by LZ-TUO (edited 05 April 2001).]

[Roadtrip]

No, you should be getting alot more. Why do you put up with that kind of compensation? If you and your colleages are being treated like slaves, start a union and speak with a collective voice. You won't get paid what you're worth unless you negotiate it.

Oh, BTW, serious mistakes by surgeons usually only kill one at a time. A bad airline pilots can kill a couple hundred times that all at once.

[John Barnes]

Just a thought, but I wonder if our management's are talking to each other how to bust us and the the union power. It is interesting to see that the pilots in SIA have more or less the same problems as you guys, the only difference that when they even pronounce the word "strike" they end up in jail. Is this what is in store for us with all these alliances? I wish you good luck!

[Hot Wings]

Road Trip - well said!

John Barnes - yes, airline management are all reading from the same Harvard business manual but its now time for us to start reading from the same union manual as UAL, Delta and AAL.