British police helicopter attacked on ground

[skadi]

Just unbelievable:

Gypsies trash £5million police helicopter - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5322574/Gypsies-trash-5million-police-helicopter.html)

Gypsies trash £5million police helicopter

A group of gipsies wrecked a £5million police helicopter to stop officers keeping them under surveillance.



By Ben Leach
Last Updated: 9:18AM BST 14 May 2009


The gang used axes to smash five windows - causing thousands of pounds worth of damage to the only police helicopter in the county.
The vandalism followed weeks of aerial surveillance on a travellers' site where stolen cars and goods are believed to be being kept.
The incident happened at around 10pm after the gipsies climbed a 4ft wall surrounding the police force's helipad at Fairoaks airport, near Woking.
They threatened staff in the operations room before trashing the aircraft, which is expected to be sidelined for another two weeks while repairs are made.
As the helicopter is the only one owned by Surrey Police neighbouring forces are having to provide air cover during police operations in the county.
Detectives were apparently ready to raid the gipsies' site on the back of evidence filmed from the air, according to The Sun newspaper.
A Surrey Police spokesman said the identity of the vandals was "unknown".
He said: "The incident is part of an ongoing investigation and security measures are being reviewed as part of this.
"We are working with a maintenance contractor to ensure the aircraft is back on line as soon as possible."



skadi

[SECRET SERVICE]

It certainly is very unbelievable......NOT!

I was made aware of the most recent incident shortly after it happened by a source from Surrey Police. Which didn't come as a surprise to me!

If I've got my facts correct - this is the second time the aircraft has been damage intentially by unknown suspect?

A similiar incident took place within the last six to twelve months where the very same ASU was attacked in the early hours of the morning whilst under the blanket of darkness by unknown suspects. This immediately took the ASU of line and out of police operations for a short time.

Apparantly and not confirmed I was also informed, later that same morning there was a serious robbery within the county which was possibly linked to the aircraft being damaged initially, so the aircraft was not avaible to respond, locate and assist with apprehension of the suspects concerned?

Surrey Police really do need to think long and hard in relation to the safety and security of firstly their ASU staff and then secondly the aircraft and the aircraft's current base location.

Fairoaks is a lovely and idillic, established airfield but for the location of an ASU base it's very vulnerable. I admit, both Surrey Police and previously in conjunction with the Met Police (SEASU) there has been an ASU based at Fairoaks for a number of years now, but as stated in the "Telegraph" newspaper, the suspect's jumped over a small wall which is does exist to which any member of the public can go airside at anytime, especially during the night hours.


Secret Service

[SASless]

Oh gee....what a feat!

Under the cover of darkness, a gang of thugs stepped over a four foot high wall....intimidated unarmed folks with axes.....vanalize a Police Helicopter....Detectives were ready to make arrests on thefts but the identity of the axemen remains unknown.:D

A few questions pop to top here.

Four foot wall....what about a ten foot fence with razor wire on top....electric gates operated by those inside the compound....Video cams....motion/infrared sensors like Tesco's use for Burglar Alarms....and Armed Police then the Id's of the Axemen could be determined by DNA and Fingerprints assisted by a third eye.:{

Someone really needs firing over this!:oh:

[bast0n]

SASless - you clearly have got out of touch with our esteemed police force and its competency levels. Hair raising stories abound this side of the fence. We have police no-go areas in rural Somerset for goodness sake. Dia-bleeding-bollical:)

[tommoutrie]

I'm not sure that Fairoaks is actually a police no-go area. The fact that I work there has put them off, sure, but they still pop in now and again.

I wonder if the Army will lend them an Apache to replace it whilst its out of action - that way they could sort out the pikeys permanently...

[noblades]

remind me of oldie but goodie.

What key can open any lock?

[GearDownFlaps]

Baston , old chap You are actually quite offensive in your remarks . I take it you speak from a long history of experience as a serving police officer , during which you encountered all manner of violent people and faced oodles of differnent weaponry.
Police officers in the main are not incompetent , the senior officers set over them and the policies and procedures they have to abide by most certainly are .
As for no go areas , you really do watch too much television .
Having worked for years as a police officer in London and Manchester I have yet to even hear of a no go area let alone avoid one .
Behave :ugh:
Alternatively Joint eh special constabulary , Im sure you would clear the crime rate up in minutes few with your exceptionla knoweldge of policing matters

[bast0n]

GEARDOWNFLAPS

I am sorry if I appeared offensive. That was far from my mind. I will not go into details of mind boggling police activity,or lack of it ,around here. Suffice it to say that Grumpy Old Men have a very different view of the Police Force nowadays than they held 30 or 40 years ago. Ask around. Also, no, I am not a police officer, but I am a very strong supporter of them, and their attempts to control crime. I feel that due to many reasons, political, fast track promotion,lack of topdown cover from above for the officers on the ground and so on and so on, has left them with a much poorer reputation than thay held in days gone by. No Go areas around here? I will tell you an illustrative story if you would like to PM me.

[jayteeto]

Gypsies smash £5million police helicopter with axes in revenge for 'spy' flights | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1181534/Gypsies-smash-5million-police-helicopter-axes-revenge-spy-flights.html)

The Mails version, wrong helicopter, but at least it is black and yellow. To those who mock us doing the job: Big electric fences and security cost lots of money. Guess what??? Senior officers don't have lots of money. You and I know that the helicopter is worth a fortune, but the police are being stretched to the limit. We run our unit with 1 civilian UEO, one sgt and 4 crews. No admin staff at all. We try our best to protect with what we have.

[flap flap flap]

Just thinking aloud here, so don't everyone get in a state. This is supposed to be a discussion, not an attack.

How cost/result-effective are UK police helicopters? They cost an awful lot of money (£2,000-£4,000 per flight hour?), what main results do they get? Looking for missing persons, chasing car theives, covering public gatherings?

Would this money be best spent on other aspects of policing or crime prevention? How many police on the beat would a police helicopter budget buy? Do police helicopters prevent crime? Or do they reinforce the "them and us" problem for police and the public. (eg witness the unpopularity of police sitting in lay-bys with speed cameras).

Given the negative preception of the police in the wake of the Stockwell shooting and the G20 demonstration problems, do police helicopters help or hinder the public's perception of the police.

Over the USA every tin-pot county and city seems to have a police helicopter and it can seem to be because local politicans want their county/city to have one so they can feel superior. Does that happen here?

Do the UK public really want police helcopters? What do the public really think of them? Are they willing to see their taxes spent on them? Or would they prefer a few more local policemen/initiatives for young people etc?

I'd be interested to hear people opinions on this. Obviously all the police pilots out there will have an "pro helicopter" opinion, but what does everyone else think?

[Fortyodd2]

FlapFlap,
You are not related to Paarmo are you? £2,000-£4,000 per flight hour? Where'd you get that from??

[ChrisGr31]

As a non-pilot, non police officer etc I would suggest that most people would generally support a police helicopter if it does useful things.

I suspect most people would think that keeping an eye on gypsies was useful and if it provided evidence that lead to their apprehension then fantastic.

I aslo suspect that most members of the public would not approve of them being used to spot speeding motorists as it is alledged some use up their hours doing.

I also guess that many members of the public would be surprised that it was so easy for "unknown" assailants to damage this aircraft be getting over a 4ft wall! I suspect most members of the public would anticapate that the helicopter was kept in a secure area, although I guess that it wouldn't occur to most people that it would be delibrately damaged whilst on the ground.

[flap flap flap]

I'm no relation to anyone!

£2,000-£4,000 was just a wild guess. Does anyone know the cost per flight hour?

A flight school will charge an AS355 out at £1,000 per hour, so I guessed an ASU with all the other costs, the cost to the taxpayer would be more? I know the London met EC145s were not cheap!

[nodrama]

Ahem.....I think you mean 145's.

[ShyTorque]

I aslo suspect that most members of the public would not approve of them being used to spot speeding motorists as it is alledged some use up their hours doing.


From my own experiences (ex-chief pilot of a police ASU), it's a fallacy to suggest that police helicopters deliberately take off merely in the hope of "spotting" speeding motorists, or carry out "patrols". It's a waste of valuable resources and the last people on earth who would wish to do this would be the crews themselves. That's not to say that an aircraft on it's way from a job would ignore an obvious case of irresponsible or dangerous driving because of a moral and legal responsibility to do some thing about it.

[jayteeto]

Flight schools make PROFIT. A typical EC135 flying hour with all pilotage and engineering costs well under £2000 per hour. When other forces use us, we charge them under a grand.
When we see speeding motorists, we use the camera for a close up first, more than 75% of those stopped usually end up being done for more serious crimes. It is filtered by our experience, we assess manner of driving/car type/area/intel/time of day/is car insured/is car well away from home etc etc. If something is dodgy sounding, we get it stopped. This has netted large amounts of drugs/stolen property/wanted criminals/stolen ringer cars and firearms. Sometimes we stop innocent people, then people bleat about how bad and wasteful we are.
There are some very nasty people out there, I agree that is NO excuse to harass innocents. Our crews work day in day out to try and make YOUR lives safer. We have good success, instead of people bleating, for once I would just love someone to credit us with some positive comments. Bobbies get abuse that you wouldn't believe, the MAJORITY do a great job. The minority are seen acting up on the news and everyone is tarred with the same brush.
When we search for missing persons, we can clear a large open area in minutes, a ground patrol would take hours. So that frees officers for other important tasks.

[Mungo5]

Have I missed something, if the identity of the vandals in 'unknown' how does the currant bun know it was the local Gypsies..?

[Lord Mount]

Flap Flap Flap

I have ben a police officer in London for 27 years and a rotary pilot for 5 years. I am not a member of the Met ASU (too tall unfortunately).

In answer to your hypothetical question, from my point of view, these aircraft are worth their weight in gold.

They have on one occasion amost certainly saved my life. Whilst chasing a suspect after a very nasty GBH robbery the chase ended up on a railway line and the chopper crew warned me to get off the line urgently as an itner-city was coming round the bend behind me.

As far as vehicle pursuits are concerned, one of the main advantages of having an aircraft above is not as most people think, to get video footage for forthcoming tv programs, but it allows the following ground units to back off whch not only reduces the danger to the police officers but encourages the bandit vehicle to slow down, thereby reducing the danger to the public.

In these days of increased terroist activity the police helicopters play a large role in making life difficult for the terrorist organisatons in ways that for obvious reasons are kept out of public awareness. I am not even privy to all of the jobs they are called upon to undertake. In fact the role of the police aircraft go far beyond what the public are generally aware and therefore an answer to your question is consequently very difficult to give.

I think it would suffice to say that I think the Air Support Units are a very effective tool for todays police services.

This thread itself oviously shows that the criminal fraternity are concerned about the presence of the aircraft which means their activities are being disrupted by it which can, in my humble opinion, only be a good thing.

These units should not only be accepted but actively supported.

LM

[airborne_artist]

Having worked for years as a police officer in London and Manchester I have yet to even hear of a no go area let alone avoid one .
Behave :ugh:I know of an incident in Thames Valley. Horse trailer stolen, with the postcode in 24" letters on roof. Owner suspects it's in a local-ish traveller's site, so asks friend with PPL(H) to check it out. Confirmed, so the owner tells the Police. Police tell him to claim on insurance, as they won't enter the site for a £3,000 trailer.

[DBChopper]

Lord Mount - very well put.

As another London copper of 23 years, and as a dog handler, I frequently work in close partnership with the Met ASU and can confirm that they are worth their weight in gold in terms of speed of response and reduction in officer-hours taken to search large areas. As Jayteeto says, the vast majority of these jobs are never made public.

And as far as:
Police tell him to claim on insurance, as they won't enter the site for a £3,000 trailer.
...then I simply don't believe it. If it is even partially true, then the victim of the theft should make a complaint.

[ShyTorque]

I would agree that the victim of such a situation should make a formal complaint in writing to the Chief Constable (copies to local Member of Parliament and Sun newspaper).

[airborne_artist]

then I simply don't believe it

100% true, I'm afraid. It was about five years ago - perhaps things have changed since?

[Fortyodd2]

Flap Flap,

Ok, just as a guide, our current D.O.C.s are £540 per hour on an EC135 scheduled for 900 hours - £486000. Slightly less than last year due to slightly lower fuel costs, slightly cheaper P.B.H. for the engines and no pay rise for the pilots this year. As to whether or not you think that's value for money - I can only add that so far this financial year we have been directly responsible for the recovery of almost two thirds of that in stolen vehicles and property.

[GearDownFlaps]

Airborne artist chap , having served as a cop for 13 years and specifically on a public order unit in an area with one of the highest pikey populations in the country , yes they do pose problems you cannot send a panda car to retrieve stolen property from a site it is really a dangerous thing to do beacuse as you know they are a lawless lot and will assault police officers . That said I have attended literally dozens of complaints of thefts of caravans ,trailers etc etc that have been found on pikey sites and we have been to every single incident and recovered the property asap , obviously some of the time it has already gone , nothing can be done about that until we invent teleportation .
I have also heard many many of the "I have a mate " stories and have personally been involved (unbeknown to the story teller) in the incident and heard the embellishments and bollocks that they come out with . Yes maybe your friend was told this , but believe me this does not make that site a no go area . As has been pointed out if that was the case , complain ! usually complaints are not made due to the circumstances they relay are not quite as they are told to their friends .
But to be honest vigilantism is the best medicine when it comes to these idiots . Ask the farmers in the great Middlewich silage caper of 2004 . These pikies turned up took residence in a field . there was a near riot with locals , up to 300 people were there takign various sides , all insisting that the young wpc there sorted the matter out immediatley . The farmers then drove a large amount of silage trucks onto the field and sprayed the bloody lot of them , funniest thing I ever saw (on video) needless to say they left the field rather quickly.
Give the guys and gals a break they are only human and put up and see more bad stuff in aweek than most people ever see in a liftetime

[DBChopper]

That was some years ago, admittedly, but even so...

And there it is, the phrase that says it all. :rolleyes: How many years, exactly?

[RVDT]

Di yeh loik dags????:p

[GearDownFlaps]

cup o' T fah the beg fella

[chopjock]

I suspect the travellers feel the police have an "unfare advantage" over them by being able to spy from a helicopter with impunity.
Damaging the police helicopter on the ground is one way to fight back at the police state. :hmm:

[GearDownFlaps]

Good point , but in Mr Artists example it wasnt a police heli thats spied on them it was his mates , no one is safe

[ShyTorque]

ShyTorque, Police units not taking off deliberately on "patrols". Perhaps your unit didn't.

No, we most certainly did NOT. The county council fitted some "problem" roads with signs declaring "Traffic enforcement by police helicopter" or similar. The most outspoken opponents to the placement of these signs was ourselves, especially the police members of the team. We did not want to get tarred with the very brush you complain about, because most definitely we never got airborne with the only aim of catching speeding drivers.

Our aim was more efficient use of the local police budget, not harrassment of the motorist.

Sometimes errant drivers did bring themselves to our attention, these cases were dealt with in an appropriate manner as best as we could. Such as a certain "Ghostrider" motorcyclist who obviously thought crossing double white lines when overtaking a line of traffic in a 30 mph zone and wheelying against oncoming traffic, whilst blind to it, was clever. He also had no number plate. I did enjoy the video of that one. We were returning from an unconnnected incident, btw, when he was spotted.

[handysnaks]

How cost/result-effective are UK police helicopters? They cost an awful lot of money (£2,000-£4,000 per flight hour?), what main results do they get? Looking for missing persons, chasing car theives, covering public gatherings?

Would this money be best spent on other aspects of policing or crime prevention? How many police on the beat would a police helicopter budget buy? Do police helicopters prevent crime? Or do they reinforce the "them and us" problem for police and the public. (eg witness the unpopularity of police sitting in lay-bys with speed cameras).

Flap*3

Your question is very valid. It is one that every police force asks regularly. The lower part of your estimate is probably close if you were to factor in saving to purchase a new one over the average life of a helicopter. The big financial question is how do we quantify the value of the helicopter operation? Basically it is an estimate of the manhours saved by the use of the helicopter (when compared with the manhours that would have been expended had the helicopter not been there). The estimates are based on Home Office research and trials, As a tax payer you may be pleased to know that further trials to re-validate the data are due to take place this year (I believe).

Those jobs you quoted, in particular searches (for missing persons and offenders), occupy a huge amount of police time and are very manpower intensive if done properly. That is why we have the helicopter. When carrying out a search of a large area, we replace dozens of police officers and often reduce the amount of time spent on a large or small scale search. This has one of two effects.

Either the offender/missing person is found good result all round, everyone back home for tea and medals, or

The search is considered a 'no trace' (offenders/missing persons have vacated search area or were never there in the first place). Although this is a negative result it has the benefit of releasing those police officers that were on that 'incident' to move on to the next in a never ending list of incidents that the police have to deal with.

With regard to 'chasing car thieves', The helicopter is now a vital tool in trying to reduce the risk of serious accidents during police pursuits. Once on scene it allows the pursuing officers to pull back and reduce their speeds. Hopefully reducing the pressure on the driver of the 'bandit vehicle' and thus increasing (remember I said hopefully), the safety of those poor unfortunates who are innocently going about their lawful business in the same vicinity!

The military use the phrase 'Force Multiplier', when dealing with equipment like aircraft. That is the way we think of a police helicopter!

Obviously all the police pilots out there will have an "pro helicopter" opinion

In my case naturally, however there are still a few police plank pilots out there who may disagree with your contention:p

[iainms]

With drones now so cheap and so good at surveillance, get rid of the police helicopters, save a lot of ££££ and time !:ok:

[Fortyodd2]

Ianms,

Would that be the drones that may only fly by day, not above 400 ft, not in controlled airspace, always in line of sight of the operator and the endurance of less than 30 minutes and have to get to the scene of the incident in a van??

[jonwilly]

Memory says that G-BOOV the Liverpool Polis Heli had a Contract placed on it by Scouse Hoods and I think it was firebombed but time does dim the braincells.
Mighty Gem should be able to confirm.
john

[iainms]

FORTYODD

Yeah, that would be the ones. And save a bloody fortune.:ugh:

[gasax]

Judging by the videos which clog the back end television channels the use of police helicopters has little benefit apart from producing video where the headless voice can proclaim how dangerous the continuing high speed pursuit is.

If helicopters were used to allow police cars to stop chasing then they would represent a major improvement in the safety of the public. These videos however prove that is NOT what is done - instead it is a high speed chase usually through built up areas and an expensive aerial video at the end of it.

I'm left with a general feeling that in the vast majority of cases police helicopters are a vanity project. a view which is largely confirmed by media stories of a cetain police helicopter tracking a woman in a car who was charged with eating an apple.........

[Aerodynamik]

I understand the culprits were confronted by the crew. Another reason for not using civvies as observers - lack of powers or personal protection!

[ShyTorque]

Why don't we get rid of their cars and vans, too - put them all back on the beat; think how much money that would save. We could all just live in a nice, safe, fluffy little world.

Alternatively, we might just regress to the dark ages where criminal anarchy ruled? The reason criminals want to target police helicopters is because they know how effective they are, especially where vehicles are involved.

Many of the helicopter "good jobs" cannot be televised; surely it doesn't take much common sense to understand why (or maybe it does, given some of the comments here). "Police, camera, action" etc tapes are not totally representative, but the sale of less classified stuff like that to TV companies does provide some income to offset of operating costs. They are for entertainment purposes and not meant to be a documentary, FFS! :ugh:

[Just a spotter]

There's an AS355N with full police kit out sitting in a hangar in EIME currently unused if they asked nicely .....

View Notice (http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/Search_View.aspx?id=APR116197&ln=EN)


JAS

[DBChopper]

In fact, I may as well give the dog back too. The food he eats costs a fortune and as for the cost of our continual refresher training...

That way when someone breaks into your house and steals your car, they can be chased by Dixon of Dock Green on his pedal cycle, all recorded on a Box Brownie taped to a remote control balsa wood Lancaster Bomber flown by the local sixth form technology class, then when he runs off at the end I will use my superior sense of smell to find the criminal and tick him off most sternly.

Sounds perfect :ugh:

[valve guide]

I am not going to go into the rights and wrongs of the Police using Helicopters, I am sure if the Telegraph(MP's Expenses) did an audit on every flight to see what came out of it there would be more rantings to get them out of the sky. I personally think if they've saved one life then they are worth it but my point is simply this. They cost a fortune to lease/buy, insure, equip with the latest technology, service, crew and finally hourly fuel burn. It was quoted earlier about 900 hours and >£400K. Now taking all this into mind, why would you not make sure that such a fragile expensive asset is properly protected on the ground. What did it cost to build a 4 ft wall relative to erecting a steel fence with razor wire. Even if it was more expensive surely the means justify the end...well they do on reading this story. Don't see our Romani friends going into the carpark at the local station and doing the same to cars. As for Jeyteeto's comment " Big electric fences and security cost lots of money. Guess what??? Senior officers don't have lots of money. " Thats the most pathetic thing I've read on PPrune for a long time If you're going to do a job do it right, make the area secure and not for lots of money. Why not get the heli, don't service it and take civilians up for their birthday that might help the cost. PATHETIC do it right or not at all!

[Fortyodd2]

Ianms,

"Yeah, that would be the ones. And save a bloody fortune"

How??

[Flaxton Flyer]

My brother had his Freelander plus trailer stolen by Pikeys. They left it in a quiet area for 12 hours or to make sure there was no Tracker on it before coming back to take it away. In the meantime somebody who knew my brother spotted it and called him with the location. When he arrived it had gone, but the locals told him that two pikeys from the local camp had just driven off in it.

So..off he went to local council-run pikey camp. The man on the gate confirmed that Pikey 1 and 2 had just driven into the camp in the Freelander. Great said my brother, so you'll confirm that to the Police then? "You must be f** (f**@@g)g joking mate " was the reply.

Undaunted off he went to the Plod shop and told them the tale. They were not interested in the slightest, and like the earlier posting told him to claim on his insurance as there was no point even arresting anybody as they would give false names, get out on bail and never be seen again.
When he tried to argue the toss all he ended up doing was getting up the nose of Mr Plod to the extent that he nearly got himself arrested for his trouble.

In the end he had no choice but to claim on the insurance which ends up costing all of us in the end (except the uninsured Pikeys of course)

No "no-go areas"? Make your own minds up.

[whoateallthepies]

Flaxton
How are you me old? How's Mick Please PM me about him.

While flying Police Heli in an unnamed county we followed a stolen car, which was being tailed by ground units, as it went into a pikey site. Gate closed, ground units stayed at the gate. We filmed pikeys decamp into a caravan, told the control room which caravan on the site. No action was taken, all coppers were called off, we were told to RTB.

Too dangerous/difficult for plod to enter the pikey site. It was definitely a no-go area. Stolen car owner would have had to claim insurance and Mr pikey would have moved it on when it all went quiet.

It would have taken a major operation with police armed to the teeth and with protective gear to be able to enter the pikey site. They've got rights. And there's Elf 'n' Safety to consider for Plod.

Bloody marveloushttp://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m412/omanjohn/2637784011.jpg

[airborne_artist]

So Flaxton and Whoate have similar stories to mine. I didn't think I was dreaming :ugh:

[DBChopper]

So a couple more stories with no dates / names / places. Why can you not name and shame then if you feel so strongly. If it was my force I would, without hesitation. Or if I were involved in such an incident I would do something about it.

When he tried to argue the toss all he ended up doing was getting up the nose of Mr Plod to the extent that he nearly got himself arrested for his trouble.

Really? For what?

[jayteeto]

So my comment was the most pathetic thing someone has heard, if we can't do it right then don't do it at all.
You have absolutely no idea of the real world my good chap. If we did what YOU say then I will let you in to a secret. After 24 years in the RAF, working Ireland and round the world, I saw the military operating on a shoestring making things work with no money and assets. If we can't do it right then don't do it at all, lets get rid of the armed services.
My missus works in child and vunerable adult protection. Her case load is off the clock and they do their best with no money or assets. Lets get rid of them.
The police are the same, the ambo service ditto, all short of cash and making do, lets get rid of them. Anything Government is in the same boat, don't even start with the NHS.
So my comments are pathetic, get the money and we will build the fences and pay for the power to electrify them. While you are there, could you find the money to cover the cost of stationery next jan-mar? We ran out of money this year, or should we just close down? If you can't afford a pencil, how can you buy extra security? if we can't do it right then don't do it at all. :ugh:

That was a big PATHETIC, where is the money valve guide????????????

[tonkaplonka]

Why can't they park the thing on a miltary base. Surely must be somewhere nearby. That's what the PSNI do at Aldergrove.

[jayteeto]

Thats what we do up here, it works well because we get free security from the RAF. The downside is an extra 3 minutes transit to incidents. I can handle constructive criticism from people on this site. There ARE improvements we can make and savings as well. However, the throwaway line from valve man really annoyed me. In the perfect world, everything is perfect. For over 27 years, myself and thousands of my colleagues have tried to make the best of a bad lot. Just understand, we do EVERYTHING (except MP expenses, seriously) on a shoestring. The comment about if you can do it right don't do it at all is total bull. NOTHING would get done in ANY public service.
To pacify the moaners, the whole police air support setup is being reviewed. Joint basing, regional tasking, multi-aircraft purchase discounts and many many other issues are being looked at. The mid-management seem to be up to the job and I personally think that there are some great ideas doing the rounds. As always it will have to be done within budget, but its early early days.

[PANews]

It has always been about balance.

No bottomless pit of money, ideas but only so far as the money allows.

When the Met got their Bell 222's in 1980 there were well founded fears about [Irish] terrorism and there were brill ideas about double fences and CCTV every 10 yards at Lippitts Hill. The 'short term' answer was a pair of cops a six-gun and a dog. Problem was when the cop with the gun drew it the dog would take his hand off....:eek:

That did not work and was expensive so they found some another way of doing it with just the single fence.

The same with Surrey. More than a decade ago you could see that the site was vulnerable.... piece of cake to attack .... but this was England and although there were precedents in rough parts of the UK it did not happen in Surrey...

Well it did not happen for more than a decade and its clear now the disgusting 'walk backwards' ethos* of modern policing has allowed this to creep up and bite Surrey twice.

So, now ten years of cheapness on, they need to do something and I guess its build a giant wall or moat. From other pages of the Telegraph it is clear that there are certain MP's who have information on moats and how to keep them clean at taxpayers expense.

The alternative is to run*.

Overall it proves one thing very clearly to those denigrating air support across this forum.

Those violent 'gentlemen' in Surrey had a very firm belief in the power of air support and wished to remove it. :ok:

Despite the cost of this event I think it actually underlines its value as an asset a great deal.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Our bobbies have no qualms of entering a travellers site, and they do it on a regular basis.

In my experience 80% of the people in the Police have been given the "Can Do" gene at birth.

[Lord Mount]

It would appear to me from what I read here that Surrey police recognised that the current standard operating procedure was not working as explained by the earlier posts, and were working on a operation to redress the ballance.

This obviously upset the members of the travelling community who could see their nice little scam being upset like the proverbial apple cart and therefore decided to do something about it.

From my point of view, congratulations to Surrey police for recognising the problem, planning the op and implementing it.

This should however be a wake up call to the powers that be regarding the security of a vital but expensive piece of police equipment.

[PANews]

Brilliant Stuff,

Unfortunately of that 20% around 5% went on 'elf n safety courses and some 15% took promotion to ensure that the masses listened to the safety czars!

Its not that new, its just someone is listening to them all of a sudden.

[Eric T Cartman]

jonwilly, you wrote "Memory says that G-BOOV the Liverpool Polis Heli had a Contract placed on it by Scouse Hoods and I think it was firebombed but time does dim the braincells.
Mighty Gem should be able to confirm.
john"

You are correct - was late 80's or early 90's - jayteeto may recall ( JC was the SPLOT at the time I think, with the 2 Dave's on his crew ). I can't remember whether they came in through the old north airfield or through the GPO gate , but they got to G-OV where it used to park in the NE corner of the apron. Luckily, they weren't too smart & the bottle bouced off & ignited on the ground - no serious damage. Dunno if they were ever caught. I do know it was something of a shock to the Tower ATCO at the time ! :uhoh: (not me btw)
DM

[whoateallthepies]

DBChopper

Your implication is that the story is made up? Why would I want to do that? The coppers I worked with were top drawer and they were just as frustrated at the hierarchy stopping them from getting a job done. Sure, I could go in to my logbook and give you the date and place, I could even tell you the pikey site (now that I live abroad) but what the hell use is that?

The frustrations were well spelled out at the time by the force members in question. If you choose to believe it's a fairy story it's no skin off my nose mate.http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m412/omanjohn/2637784011.jpg

[Flaxton Flyer]

Quote:
When he tried to argue the toss all he ended up doing was getting up the nose of Mr Plod to the extent that he nearly got himself arrested for his trouble.
Really? For what?

You're the copper, mate - you work it out. Breach of the Peace? Threatening behaviour? Wearing a loud shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness?

I think maybe it was because he asked Mr. Desk Sergeant why he couldn't even be arsed getting off his fat lazy backside to retrieve this £20,000 vehicle even though the donkey detective work had already been done for him. But probably not as politely as that.....

[Lord Mount]

To make matters clear for those asking about so called 'no go areas' for police in England.

There are NO 'no go areas' for police.

What we are talking about here are decisions that have to be made regardig the health and safety spects of entering potentially dangerous areas.

It has to be borne in mind that on a normal working day there are not enough police officers working to proivide sufficient backup should the excreta interface with the air circulatory device and also they would be entering an area where they would not only be outnumbered but where the other parties would have access to weapons etc.

It ain't The Bill.

Travellers sites are not no go areas but these things have to be properly planned in advance.

[valve guide]

Jayteeto, keep your pants on!! My point is that the cost of the whole heli operation is not a shoestring or anything like it. Assuming the wall was built at 4 ft around the heli pad area would it not have made more economic sense to have fenced it instead. I can't imagine it costing anymore, infact I think it would be less. The area would be far more secure and this would hopefully not have been able to take place with such ease. Even now would it not be better to fly a few hours less per week an secure the area with the money saved. And before you say that you couldn't do that, its not flying just now because of the damage never mind the costs! You refer to the NHS etc and budgets, we all have to operate within tight and getting tighter budgets but common sense has to prevail. Appears to be sadly lacking here :ugh:

[soggyboxers]

The G BOOV attack was 1990. Max Kenworhty was up there at the time. If I remember the only real damage was a cracked windscreen.

[DBChopper]

Your implication is that the story is made up?

Er no, I'm sure you have much better things to do.

If you choose to believe it's a fairy story it's no skin off my nose mate.

Good. I felt that the implication in your post was that "Plod" got scared and ran away, but you have now added:

The coppers I worked with were top drawer and they were just as frustrated at the hierarchy stopping them from getting a job done.

and I'm pleased, because I think it puts things more into perspective. There are very few coppers who would arrive at said site under those circumstances, look at each other, pull a face and run away. Rather, the "can do" gene that Brilliant Stuff mentions kicks in, and ways and means are employed to retrieve the stolen car and detain the suspects. In the Met, we are lucky. If I find myself in a similar situation I can call on a large proportion of my 35000ish mates to come and help. In many of the county forces, they seem to be massively under-resourced for the size of the areas they patrol, so I have loads of sympathy for two PCs in a diesel Astra turning up at the gates of our travelling friends and thinking, "I don't fancy getting shot / beaten up / eaten by dogs today - let's have a rethink..." That doesn't mean, "Let's give in and let them keep the car," but rather, "Let's set up observations / an operation, etc"

And as for Flaxton Flyer's:
You're the copper, mate - you work it out. Breach of the Peace? Threatening behaviour? Wearing a loud shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness?

I am indeed. Thank you :D

I like the last one, but I suspect it wouldn't stand up in court any more than the "standing by a pedestrian crossing with intent to cross the road" would ;)

My point is, I find the whole story a little hard to believe. To be fair, perhaps it is because I don't want to believe it from a professional standpoint, but I would like to make it clear that the British police don't make a habit of arresting people just because we think they are a bit whingey about having their stuff nicked. And in any case there aren't laws that let us do it unless they go really berserk. And that's fairly unusual.

Stories change to fit the point the teller is trying to illustrate (no, FF, I'm not saying you are lying) and if I had a pound for the number of times an understandably stressed victim of crime has interpreted a lack of ability on the part of the police to act at that moment, whether due to lack of resources / lack of legal powers / whatever, as:
They were not interested in the slightest
then I wouldn't be flying bloody R22s! :}

[PANews]

Valve Guide

the fence was built a million years ago and was not security for the helicopter .... it just impeded access for spotters who then went 50 yards down to the gap. In truth there was no real security in place, it was not needed. The pad was a 50 yard dash from the hangar.... hold back for the Piper on the intersecting peritrack before you cross...

There are difficulties on this site. Building a fence etc near the helipad brings in all sorts of issues ... clear area is lost and as a result performance ....

Historically Fairoaks was fine.... as long as policing was being undertaken with the consent of the people. Now we have people who do not consent and play by the same rules and parking £5M of helicopter in the open is not on anymore.

First time [last October] may have been a glitch. :ouch:

Second is serious. uhoh:

New plan required.:O

[MrFire]

Why can't they park the thing on a miltary base. Surely must be somewhere nearby. That's what the PSNI do at Aldergrove

Not sure if it's relevant, but from a policing principles point of view it's considered best practice to avoid relying on the resources of the army in whatever way (although I did see the vids of wokka's flying riot squads about at gleneagles a while back...)

On the other hand there might just be a lack of suitable facilities, so who knows?

[PO dust devil]

Whether it's traffic or major Crime there is strong support for the notion that the thing that stops people killing people, committing white collar crimes, burgling homes, speeding, or just about anything wrong (maybe with the exception of using ice or speed) remains the liklihood of being caught and punished.

Yes, I know this leads to a whole new argument about motivation to get street plods and detectives out there catching crooks and visible police presence..... AND separate argument about crime and appropriate punishment AND separate argument about racial ethnic or religious profiling.

The great 70's UK experiment of centralized policing from large blue citadels robbed people world wide of local street level intelligence. But it was easier to administer. The "local police" were displaced into giant hiding castles and soon lost touch with what crooks were where and doing what to whom. A dispatch car would be sent to respond to local crimes without any local ownership of the patch. A collator and analyst would then put all the crimes together in a bundle and hope that someone came up with a whisper about who the crooks were to pin the crime to.

Mums and Dads and punters in general, lost confidence in the police forces all over ages ago when they lost contact with "their" local plods. The notion of parking your police helicopter resource in a military compound is another symptom of the loss of public confidence police have suffered.

To me it looks like someone ought to get about funding a definitive study on the effects of Air Support units with regards to crime prevention. If the job is achieving measurable results - all the crap regarding DOC's, staffing, worth and joy rides, becomes irrelevent. It may also be a way to identify best use of the resource.

IMHO

DD

[helispeediii]

just a note the true costs of operating a police helicopter of any type is as long as a piece of string , and whilst we need them and they do a great service , it is not possible to purchase a new aircraft fund it over say ten years ?? doing 800/1000 hrs per year 1/2 crew ?? etc etc etc for less than £2000, + per hour air-born in fact i know its not ,you cant quote the doc + fuel , id be surprised if the true cost was not nearer to £3000/£4000 as stated but that not to say its not good value but it helps to fund these things if you know the true costs , i know it will still be going in 10/20 yrs but you have to write the cost off in a reasonable period and anything left is a bonus and you dont get may of them in rotary do you helispeed iii

[Whirlygig]

A £5 million helicopter, financed at a flat rate of 5% per annum over 5 years but operated for ten years (assuming 1,000 flying hours a year) would cost £640 an hour. Crewing (3 no.), on the same number of hours per annum (including NI and pension) would be around £150 to £200 an hour. A good approximation for any business in estimating overheads is to double the staffing cost i.e. another £150 to £200 an hour to pay for the running of the ASU.

On top of this add maintenance and fuel but I'm struggling to get to £3,000-£4,000 an hour.

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

The crews, pilots apart, were surely already part of the establishment.

They would still have been there, in a patrol car or on the beat, if there was no ASU.

So should they really be included in the "extra" manpower cost of the unit?

[Whirlygig]

You're asking for marginal costing now eh? Gee, me fag packet ain't that big.

OK, you can add back £100 to £133 for the two police observers who would otherwise be employed elsewhere in the force but then you may also need to add on the cost of their patrol car etc.

Cheers

Whirls

[DBChopper]

I'd prepare an invoice for those calculations Whirls - there will be senior officers round the country copying and pasting them even as we type! ;)

[helispeediii]

dear whirls thanks for your imput but a new police helicopter is probally nearer to £6 million + with the equipment on board also what about admin staff premises rates landing fees? and be fair its quite difficult to borrow at 5% even with base rates where they are i still think the true costs are more than £3k per hour but with creative accountants you can make the cost as low as you want, im talking about true costs !, you may remember that the met police asu running 222 went bankupt if i remember correctly , as i said its as long as apiece of string cheers whirls three greens to you helispeed iii

[tigerfish]

Helispeed111 You are way out! The Current cost of a fully role equipped EC135 is just a bit over £5m. But with bulk purchases which has now become the norm, the price per unit is nearer £4.7m. From that you need to deduct Home Office grant aid towards the purchase which can amount to a tidy sum. That and the resale value of the old aircraft being replaced, will often mean that the actual amount of new money that the Police Authority have to find to effect the purchase of the new machine is in the region of £2m. Not such a bad deal after all.

The Home Office have run the grant scheme since about 1993, encouraging Forces to develope UK Police air support into one of the most efficient services of its type in the world. Do you seriously believe that they would have gone on doing that over the years if the service and its effectiveness was as bad as you suggest.

The real targets have been the persistant vehicle thief, the mugger and the burglar. The days of the Ram raid are now much less. Vehicle pursuits tend to be much shorter and as a result far safer for the public, and the mugger and burglar stand a much better chance of getting caught.

The projected cost per hour of about £1,200 is a realistic figure given all of the other factors that apply to Police aviation. Against that must be put the cost of serious injury and indeed loss of life that the police aircraft often prevents.

There will always be the armchair expert who has never felt a collar, or never felt the frustration of seeing a reckless criminal in someones else's car get away scott free. Well I have, and I can tell you that the advent of rapidly available air support to the bobby on the ground is one of the best things that happened to policing. The secret is in its immediacy though and rapidly drops off if the distance to be flown to reach the scene is too great. The danger units face today is from the "Expert" who believes that by drawing circles on a map he can reduce coverage & save money. Usually the expert has forgotten that unlike a map the reality is that terrain can be lumpy and stuffed with hills and weather in the UK is not always bright & sunny.

Tigerfish (Ol Grumpy)

[Whirlygig]

Helispeediii, I didn't pluck the figure of £5m out of thin air; it was a best estimate (actually based on an EC135 from Eurocopter's website with an allowance of £750k for equipment) and on the pessimistic side in order to make my point. A flat rate of 5% is probably equivalent to an APR of 10-11%; easily obtainable in a business environment.

what about admin staff premises ratesAs I said, A good approximation for any business in estimating overheads is to double the staffing cost i.e. another £150 to £200 an hour to pay for the running of the ASU.What do you think overheads are?

OK, I omitted landing fees but many ASUs will not have to pay for these.

If somebody would care to let me know the maintenance schedules and spares costs, I can finish the rest of the costings if you like. Fuel costs are straightforward.

Cheers

Whirls

[tigerfish]

Helispeediii. And I also forgot to say,- that you are also way out on the running costs! Very few units have any admin staff. The UEO, Chief Pilot and observers do all that themselves when not flying. The Pilot of course is an additional cost factor but not the Police crew who would be paid anyway whatever duties they were forforming. Some units do pay landing fees but have usually negotiated a special and favourable rate given that their ops are in the public interest. Fuel is purchased on a bulk purchasing scheme and again probably well below what you might have to pay.

All in all we get a pretty good deal from our ASU's. Remember they rarely do any routine patrols, but can occasionally be used for crime supression when required. Under normal circumstances pretty well every flight is in response to someone else's distress or in response to a sudden serious incident that the duty crew realise is one that the A/C can respond too and make a difference too.

The fact that the Surrey machine has been attacked on two occasions is more, I would submit, in reponse to its effectiveness than anything else!

Tigerfish ( Now even grumpier )

[flap flap flap]

"Remember they do no do any routine patrols"

The South Wales one does.

[helispeediii]

dear tigerfish +whirls im not against police helicopters in any shape or form, im just stating what i think is the true costs , your quote not mine ec 135 with grants cost police £1200 ph and only have to pay £2 mill for it thats great but the rest of the money has to come from somwhere eg us tax payers , who do you think pays for the cheap fuel oil companies or other users my figures were based on a md 902 type, and i think two on to one is a bit unfair regards helispeed iii

[DBChopper]

"Remember they do no do any routine patrols"

The South Wales one does.

I guess it depends on the interpretation of the phrase "routine patrol." Many ASUs, as I understand it, will take to the air for patrols directed at preventing / disprupting certain targetted crimes, whether it be anti-terrorist patrols over suspected targets or by using the return run from a job to carry out low(ish) level filming over street robbery hotspots. I'd be surprised if any ASU in the UK just takes off for a fly around, with no targetted patrol or tasking to perform.

[Tarman]

Why don't you tender for the next Police contract at £4000 per hour and see if you win it. If you do get Whirls to buy and operate it for you and make a fortune !

[helispeediii]

tarman i have done as you suggest but medivac and no i did not make a fortune :sad: which is why i still think the true costs are 3/4 k ph, the matenance / was roughly twice what the manufacturer quoted , why dont you tender at say 2k ph and see if you make a profit , can i just make it clear, im not saying the police pay this rate im saying this is a realistic figure to make a profit !think about the cost of providing a replacement aircraft when yours is off line which you would almost certainly have to do if you were in a contract with someone like the police regards helispeeiii

[Fortyodd2]

Helispeediii,
The police are not in this game to make a profit - under a PAOC we cannot raise money by flying anything other than police missions. Replacement aircraft?? - there are no "Spare" police 135's, if the aircraft is off line then we are reliant on mutual support which is why several police units are either in formal or "loose" consortia. As for maintenance costs, most, but not all police units are under SBH and PBH contracts.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Generally a good accurate post, Fortyodd2, although I think Strathclyde and S Wales might take issue with your:
there are no "Spare" police 135's
... their contracts have provision for the contractor to provide a spare 135 to cover both forecast and (within contract-defined time limits) un-forecast periods where the primary aircraft is offline.

[tigerfish]

What many ordinary general aviation people do not appreciate is the level of co-operation that we have acheived here in the UK.
When one machine is off line for either scheduled or unsheduled maintenance the surrounding units will cover for their absence. Whilst not universal this is generally provided on a no fee "You scratch my back etc etc "basis. ( There will always be exceptions ) Where fees do come in, is where a service is requested by a force which does not not have its own air cover as a normal facility ) But this is rare.

All UK units although truly independant of each other work closely with each other. This applies whatever aircraft type each unit operates. Its the Police task that is most important. The cost to the maintenance providor of having a spare role equipped machine available would be prohibitive and would have to be passed on to the customer. That is why the current mutual aid system evolved.

Remember UK Police aviation has evolved now steadily for over 25 years. It is one of the most sophisticated and effective of its type in the world. I am now long retired but still connected. I am extreemly proud of what our lads & lasses have acheived.

Tigerfish

[PO dust devil]

I still think it should be about catching crooks and restoring public confidence.

Make your operation invaluable.

DD

[DBChopper]

I still think it should be about catching crooks and restoring public confidence.

From what I can see, so does everybody else! :ugh:

I promise you, that whenever I call out our ASU to assist me - and I do, quite frequently - it will most definitely be "all about catching crooks" (and, on the odd occasion, all about finding a vulnerable missing or injured person, which I would suggest is equally valuable).

:ok:

[Flyin'ematlast]

FWIW - as a PPL(H) with no police experience I place great value on our local police helicopter (which I see regularly living 1/4 mile from a 60 pitch pikey site). I am equally pleased that our county (Herts) has at last got an air ambulance service.

Modern policing is an impossible balancing act and I accept that our local plods cannot justify entering my neighbours domain for a stolen car or minor taffic infringement but they do mount operations from time to time at great cost and usually find many things of interest.

If I were a bobby (as my best mate is) then I would definately want to know that police ASU backup was there if I needed it.

:ok:

Ian.