Bos/Kos gongs no longer allowed to be worn??

[Ginger Beer]

A mate has just been told that we are no longer allowed to wear Bosnia and Kosovo NATO medals and the tailors are in the process of removing his from his best bib n tucker !! Apparently there is a signal out stating that they are no longer de rigeur? Why :confused:

Has anyone else come across this one? If so, the system can pay for mine to be unmounted and reimburse me for having them mounted in the first place :ouch:

Rgds

Ginge

[hellomoto]

I hope this is a wind-up. :eek:

[Laarbruch72]

A mate of my mate has also been told by a man in the pub that you can wear the NATO Afghanistan medal alongside the OSM. He thinks he's almost sure that the bloke in the pub said that you can also wear those ones you buy from the Danbury Mint as well, and just after last orders I think he's sure he said that they're compulsory. That's even more tailoring jiggery pokery to be worrying about! What a spinning bow tie extravaganza eh?

Seriously, no I've not heard that. I'm sure it's not true. :}

[Ginger Beer]

I'm certainly not trying to wind anyone up !!

He is contemplating returning to stores to retrieve his jacket. Tailor showed him a signal stating the Former Yugoslavia and Kosovo ribbons are to be removed.

So, unless the tailor is wrong or he misread the signal ???

I was hoping that you, my learned colleagues, would tell me they are wrong?

Ginge

[sitigeltfel]

Typical....the tailor is the first one to know!

They're not getting my GSM(NI) I tell ya, I fought for that.



Well, maybe not.

[Pontius Navigator]

Typical....the tailor is the first one to know!

They're not getting my GSM(NI) I tell ya, I fought for that.


Well, maybe not.

Do get a JPA bar for your GSM or is it a special medal?

[Mr C Hinecap]

The MOD Medal Office would be the best people to ask, or Air PersPol-DisPol SO2 at High Wycombe.
:8

[sitigeltfel]

Do get a JPA bar for your GSM or is it a special medal?

Standard GSM with clasp reading Northern Ireland. No longer serving so it just sits in my oddments drawer along with other sundries from times past.

[Nomorefreetime]

Am I right in the assumption that if you have more than 6 medals you can't parade.
Must be a big parade coming up and there isn't enough senior people to fill the spaces.

[minigundiplomat]

Am I right in the assumption that if you have more than 6 medals you can't parade.


Never heard of that one at Odiham, where most people have more than 6 medals, and parades still happen.

[sitigeltfel]

Before I left the RAF in '79 my GSM (NI) ribbon was quiet a novelty. There had not been any areas of conflict for many years and the number of RAF serving in the province was relatively small. With the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts in recent times there must be lot more of them about, but that does not dilute their value. I have come to the conclusion that campaign medals are a sign of political failure and governments should be ashamed that the award of these medals ever happens.

[wrecker]

Does that mean my GSM with Palestine Clasp is no longer PC?

[Spam_UK]

A Work friend was told the same today, and the tailors are taking his off.

Apparently the signal went out a while ago stating that unless you have express written permission from a suitable adult (V. Senior Officer) then they are not to be worn.

Seems a shame to me!

[Pontius Navigator]

Just checked my grandfather's medals. He had a GSM with Iraq and Kurdistan bars!

[clicker]

As an outsider I'm shocked at this. You guys work hard for these medals and why should you not be allowed to wear them.

Next the goverment will collect the metal bits and melt them down to recoup some of their expences they are paying back.

[Herc-u-lease]

before my blood pressure raises, please can someone check the signal and inform the masses of any reason why this is the case? I don't like getting spun-up about something before knowing the facts but i cannot understand why medals which were earned are being removed from dress uniform.

Am i anti-royal if i said the golden jubilee chocolate coin should be a better candidate for removal? - hey everyone I joined before 1997 and the queen has had her job for quite a while.:)

[chippy63]

quite agree with clicker.:ok:

[Brewers Droop]

This is a windup right?

Just recently had my little row of well earned gongs crown mounted (along with the Jubilee which I got for erm..........:rolleyes:); would be a tad annoying to know I shouldn't have paid extra for my Bosnian mine avoidance Medal ......

Does that mean they'll wait 10 years and then bin my family avoidance desert additions also?

[baffman]

Not a windup, but wrong, a misunderstanding of the fact that the NATO Medals Former Yugoslavia and Kosovo are no longer available to new recipients. The word "withdrawn" appears to have been misunderstood.

[dragon166]

Surely DCIs are the authority for the the receipt and wear of medals. So whatever the signal said it should be followed up by a DCI. This would explain the situation as whether permission to receive and or wear has been rescinded. Normally further receipts may be curtailed but previous recipients continue to enjoy the rules as they were when permission was first granted. It normally takes a declaration of war against the issuing country for these medals to be rescinded in toto, an unlikely situation with the UN - the issuing authority.

[baffman]

Surely DCIs are the authority for the the receipt and wear of medals. So whatever the signal said it should be followed up by a DCI. This would explain the situation as whether permission to receive and or wear has been rescinded. Normally further receipts may be curtailed but previous recipients continue to enjoy the rules as they were when permission was first granted. It normally takes a declaration of war against the issuing country for these medals to be rescinded in toto, an unlikely situation with the UN - the issuing authority.

Absolutely, or in fact a DIN, as they call the things now. From recollection it should be a DIN entitled "Wearing of Orders, Decorations and Medals by Service Personnel" which is made under authority of JSP 761 - Honours and Awards in the Armed Forces.

I can understand a rumour getting about and being repeated by tailors, but if anyone really put out a signal to that effect it says a lot about their mindset that they accepted such an arbitrary unexplained decision without thought or clarification. "Not theirs to reason why". :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

Nor the Saudi one.........:\

[Tankertrashnav]

Just checked my grandfather's medals. He had a GSM with Iraq and Kurdistan bars!


Other bars for the GSM around that time were 'Southern Desert, Iraq' which was exclusively awarded to the RAF and 'Northern Kurdistan'. We are now on our third Afghanistan medal, the first awarded in 1878-80, the next a bar to the India GS in 1919, and the politicians still havent learned how futile it is trying to tame the untameable.

By the way Pontius that's a nice scarce medal, did your grandfather get WW1 medals too?

[chumzpilla]

at Odiham, where most people have more than 6 medalsThat's because you are all god damn heros.:rolleyes: Still you are a bit short when compared to this fella.

http://www.166aw.ang.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/090108-F-0684C-001.jpg

[Low Ball]

Interesting to note that the gentleman in the picture wears both the Saudi and Kuwaiti medals from GW1. We brits are real stingy about this - what harm does it do - we earned them the hard way

LB

[Wader2]

The latest DIN I can find is 2007DIN09-028. The 'news' is probably the deciding of an end date. The relevant bit is:


xiii.
UNMIK (Kosovo): 10 Jun 99 to date to be decided.
xiv.

MONUC (Congo): 30 Nov 99 to date to be decided.
xv.

UNMEE (Ethiopia/Eritrea): 15 Sep 00 to date to be decided.

and

d.

NATO Non-Article 5 Medal:
i.

Balkans (Non-Article 5): 01 Jan 03 to date to be decided.
(Note: Macedonia [FYROM] elements ceased on 31 Mar 03. The Bosnia Herzegovina elements ceased on 01 Dec 04).

But equally interesting is this bit:

7.

The General Service Medal, 1962, with the following clasps, is currently in wear:
a.

Northern Ireland: 14 Aug 69 to 31 Jul 07.
b.

Dhofar: 01 Oct 69 to 03 Sep 76.
c.

Lebanon: 07 Feb 83 to 09 Mar 84.
d.

Mine clearance – Gulf of Suez: 15 Aug 84 to 15 Oct 84.
e.

Gulf: 17 Nov 86 to 28 Feb 89.
f.

Kuwait: 8 Mar 91 to 30 Sep 91.
g.

Northern Iraq/South Turkey: 06 Apr 91 to 17 Jul 91.
h.

Air Operations – Iraq: 16 Jul 91 to 18 Mar 03.

What seems to have happened here is that people awarded the GSM more that 40 years ago are no longer serving. Well they are wrong :)

Finally I would post th eextract about wearing medals after you leave the service, but that page is protectively marked :}

[Tankertrashnav]

The General Service Medal, 1962, with the following clasps, is currently in wear:



Not sure how "currently in wear" is defined. The first four clasps for the 1962 GSM are certainly missing from that list, namely 'Borneo', Radfan', 'South Arabia' and 'South Vietnam'. Perhaps as the definition of "currently in wear" means worn by serving personnel, and there cant be many still serving who have any of the above, but it could be argued that MRAF Sir Michael Beetham, one of the last 5 stars, is still serving, as of course they do not retire, but remain in the service on half pay. He certainly got the South Arabia clasp as he was my station commander at Khormaksar. I got it too, but Sir Michael has a few more than me!

'South Vietnam' is an incredibly rare clasp, given to the small number of Australians serving there between 1962 and 1964. Later the Vietnam Medal was struck and given exclusively to Australian and New Zealand Forces

[Pontius Navigator]

Other bars for the GSM around that time were 'Southern Desert, Iraq' which was exclusively awarded to the RAF and 'Northern Kurdistan'. We are now on our third Afghanistan medal, the first awarded in 1878-80, the next a bar to the India GS in 1919, and the politicians still havent learned how futile it is trying to tame the untameable.

By the way Pontius that's a nice scarce medal, did your grandfather get WW1 medals too?

I didn't mention that my GF got his GSM after the war when they remained in Mesoptamia :). He has the MC, Tibet 1903-04 with Gyantse bar (he was OC the mission I believe on 6 month rotation, a 1914-1915 Star, 1914-1918 medal, Great War medal 1914-1919 with Mention, the GSM, Durbar 1911, LSGC, MSM, Croix de Guerre avec palms.

We don't know the story behind the mention or the MSM. The Croix de Guerre was 'the French also gave me a medal.'

[Union Jack]

'South Vietnam' is an incredibly rare clasp, given to the small number of Australians serving there between 1962 and 1964. Later the Vietnam Medal was struck and given exclusively to Australian and New Zealand Forces


I seem to recall that our Antipodean friends were not highly delighted at receiving what was seen as an essentially British award, and particularly inappropriate in a campaign in which the UK was not officially involved. Hence the introduction of their own awards, and the use of the somewhat derogatory nickname given to the British GSM, namely the "Violet Crumble Bar", derived from a very popular Australian chocolate bar with a mainly purple foil wrapping.

Jack

[taxydual]

Finally I would post th eextract about wearing medals after you leave the service, but that page is protectively marked

Thanks for that Wader 2.

However, seeing as I left the Service a number of years ago, so therefore DCI'S/DIN'S (or whatever they are called today) no longer affect me, I shall still wear the (HM approved and the one presented by Her personally) medals awarded to me until HM tells me otherwise.

Oh, please don't tell Her where I live.



Another thing, why does a DCI/DNI pronouncment about medal wearing after one leaves the Service be 'protectively marked'? Who, after their Service, gets DCI's/DNI's?

[minigundiplomat]

at Odiham, where most people have more than 6 medals That's because you are all god damn heros.:rolleyes:


Could well be. Some have a better lifestyle, some get bits of tin. I know most of the guys at Odiham would cash them all in for a decent tour with a better lifestyle.

[ian16th]

TT,

......and Sir Michael has a DFC from flying Lancaster's during WWII and the AFC from when he was the OC 214 Sqdn, for the successful completion of the air to air refuelling trials!

[Lima Juliet]

I suggest that all that have been to the Tailor go back again and get their ribbons and gongs for Kosovo and Bosnia put back on - this is indeed a gross misunderstanding of a poorly worded signal.

HM Queen has granted the wear to all those within the qualifying criterion. If they have been issued under false pretences then they can be taken away, but otherwise, it is quite clear in JSP 761 you are entitled to wear them. That is the bible for all honours and awards.

I suggest that the rest of us give any medal policy Tailor "experts" a stiff ignoring - "Oi, Stitch, just do the work that I'm asking you to do!":ugh:

LJ :ok:

[Melchett01]

Wouldn't be the first time a station tailor thought he knew what was correct when in fact he was just making it up.

I remember working along side an Army ex-ranker during my first tour; his rack of medals constituted a health and safety hazard, and his Para wings were so battered and faded he could well have got them in time for the Arnhem jump. But it was his Cdo dagger badge which caused most amusement as the tailor incorrectly insisted he had it sewn on upside down. Despite much 'explaining' said tailor took it on himself to remove the dagger and sew it on the 'right way up'.

Queue much sniggering from us, much whimpering from the tailor and much grumbling from a very angry Captain.

Get yer uniforms back down to the tailors and tell them to do as they are paid to do and not what they want to do.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for that bit of info on the GSM , Union Jack, I hadn't heard that one before, but it certainly figures. Yes Ian, I remember Sir Michael's DFC/AFC - I was staring right at the ribbons one day at Khormaksar when I was a PO as I was standing to attention getting bollocked rigid by him for some sin of ommission! (and yes, you did wear medal ribbons on KD bushjackets). He was a hard man, but obviously no fool to have made MRAF. Ive just thought, he must be the only man still serving (technically) to be wearing the Aircrew Europe Star.

[grusome]

Union Jack:
Don't take offence at our propensity for giving nicknames. The GSM and the GSM1962 were the Violet Crumble Bars Mk1 and Mk2 long before Vietnam, and I don't think that was driven by anti-Pom feelings. After all, the Hoadleys Violet Crumble Bar was quite a nice sweet!

Off topic, but for those with an interest in the history of the GSM, there was a fair bit of too-ing and fro-ing about Vietnam awards. As usual, the older generation was inclined to pronounce: that's not a war, not like ours was! So we were initially a "Police Action", and I was, indeed, awarded the VCB Mk2. This I wore proudly for about a year, having served my time in VN during 1965. Up to that time, as recognised above, the Australian "Special Forces" (not their real title, but close enough to their purpose) were also awarded the GSM'62. At some point the AUS Army, having inserted their first infantry battalion into VN in mid 1965, whose tour concluded mid 1966, decided that a particular campaign award should be made. After Royal assent, the RAAF got in line, an order appeared (can't remember when, but about the end of '66) which stripped those of we RAAF personnel who had qualified for their VCBMk2, and replaced it with the VN Campaign Medal, backdated to when the first RAAF chappies arrived in country, ie August 1964. This became the first qualifying date, and also affected the Australian Advisory Team.
Now, I was quite keen to hang on to my VCB, but there was no recourse, which I still find "interesting". In principle, how can somebody be stripped of an award sans the bad behavior regulations?
There is an another consequence of this policy. Some advisors (maybe many) did a second (or more) tour. Those that had been allowed to keep their GSM then received the VN Campaign Medal, whereas those awarded the VN Medal received neither a bar nor a second award. Thus, my subsequent visits to the country received no medallic recognition whatever, along with a multitude of others, of course.
I'm sorry to have to report that the above recorded tendency of old warriors to decry the efforts of the newer generation is still evident. In my present role in veteran's affairs, and in reference to what the troops are up to now, I have heard expressions from people of my generation like: this is not a real war! etc. It makes me cringe.
Grusome

[Tankertrashnav]

Very interesting post Grusome. Do you have any idea of the numbers who received the South Vietnam clasp, and how many actually returned them in exchange for the Vietnam Service medal? In 30+ years dealing in medals I've never actually seen one, nor can I recall one being offered for sale. The current medal catalogue doesnt even bother to put a market value against them - just says "Rare" - I suspect there would be a few noughts on the end of the price if ever one did come up for sale.

I used to get a lot of "they dont know what a real war is" sort of stuff from the older generation when I had a militaria shop, but as my son has served in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan (he managed to dodge Iraq, the skiver) they got short shrift from me. The guys that come off the back of a C17 in a box at Brize are just as dead as those whe fell on the Somme or in Normandy, thankfully there are fewer of them, that's all.

[grusome]

Nav1,
I would hazard a guess at about 250-350 RAAF gazetted. However, I can't even guess at how many were pinned as against how many simply had the tailor do the right thing with a ribbon once gazetted. I was of the latter class, not actually having had the gong in my hot little hand - that side of the business was notoriously slow in those days.
Nevertheless, I remain ungruntled about the withdrawal of the offer, so to speak.
Gru

[Union Jack]

Don't take offence at our propensity for giving nicknames

And absolutely none taken at any time, Grusome, by someone who thoroughly enjoyed two very happy years of exchange service with the RAN. I'm only glad that I provoked such a detailed reply, not least at the extraordinary situation revealed in the penultimate paragraph of your post, and Tankertrashnav is also clearly grateful.

Curiously enough, it reminds me how cross some of us in dark blue were when the Naval GSM 1915 was superseded by the GSM 1962, which bears a very close ressemblance to the junior services' previous GSM, right in the middle of Confrontasi!

Jack

PS Purely on the chocolate front, I suspect many of our lot would prefer a simple CDM to the rather sickly VCB .....:)

[grusome]

Well, there you go, old chap. I prefer dark chocolate.
Gru

[Union Jack]

Grusome

Oh then you mean CB rather than CDM!

Jack

[Tankertrashnav]

how cross some of us in dark blue were when the Naval GSM 1915 was superseded by the GSM 1962


Quite agree, UJ, the old NGS was a super medal, with Britannia and a couple of horses charging through the waves. By contrast the 1962 GSM reverse has to be one of the most boring examples of British medal design ever. Some not bad designs these days, I quite like the Op Telic medal, but the less said about the UN/NATO medals the better!

[Easy Street]

My TELIC medal is a real pain compared to the others - it came out of the box quite tarnished and I've never been able to get it looking truly spanking. Any one else had the same problem? I'm reluctant to take wire wool to the thing ...

Easy

[pigsinspace]

have you tried a normal pencil eraser?

[Mr C Hinecap]

Irate contributors. Do you really think the tailors are little powercrazed Napoleons and trying to subvert the Forces? No - they tend to be honest civilian tradesmen and women trying to do their best and keep their customers dressed correctly. They are not messing with your uniforms for s**ts and giggles. They appear to be following a badly-worded document provided for them. How about assisting with understanding rather than the 'oy, stitch, I know best, do it' internet hardmen lines you trot out here? I have worked with good and bad tailors - I've worked with good and bad in every RAF Branch and Trade too. Get over yourselves and see people away from the cockpit as people.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Aye, tailors only work iaw documentation handed to them by Supply, who in turn get the documents from someone who is supposed to know about these things and gets paid a pretty penny for the privilege.

If tailors were to start making up their own dress regulations then they wouldn't get paid for the work, nor for correcting their mistake. This is why you are supposed to have a supply trade SNCO who is familiar with current dress regs at hand in order to sign-off work being return after tailoring as correct, which in-turns authorises payment for said tailoring.

Whether this happens in all (or any) Clothing Stores these days is another matter, I can only go on what happened many years ago when I ran Clothing Stores.

I'll go now though, feeling sleepy after discussing matters that I have tried to purge from my mind......:zzz: