Air NZ review

[1279shp]

This is more of what JH departures about

#

Air New Zealand is reviewing its regional network just as budget rival Pacific Blue unveils plans to expand its domestic services.

The airline is also warning that some smaller towns risk losing their air link if passenger numbers do not hold up.:uhoh:

Air New Zealand head of short haul airlines Bruce Parton said domestic passenger numbers were down about 3 per cent due to the slowing economy. "So it is at the margins, it's just that our game is at the margins. If in the end we can't get loads, we really do need to pull out of locations.":eek:

The review would look to improve synergies between subsidiary regional airlines Eagle Air, Air Nelson and Mount Cook Airline.:hmm:

That could include a single, heavy maintenance base for the entire turbo-prop fleet, faster airport turnaround times, better matching aircraft types to routes, and streamlining operational functions such as flight planning.
Pacific Blue this week revealed plans to break Air New Zealand's regional monopoly by touring a new 104-seat Embraer 190 E-Jet around several provincial centres to test airport capability and community response.

A planned visit to Palmerston North on Thursday was cancelled after one of the jet's engines was damaged by a bird strike during an attempted takeoff from Hamilton. :p

Air New Zealand denied industry reports yesterday that it had summoned Embraer representatives to Auckland in response to Pacific Blue's move.
House of Travel retail director Brent Thomas said Pacific Blue's regional plans would lead to huge fare reductions, similar to what had occurred on the main trunk route and trans-Tasman market.

However, Air New Zealand would not necessarily respond by replacing some of its turbo-prop aircraft with jets.:{
Although jets were more comfortable, scheduling and frequency of services were more important, especially to the business market, Mr Thomas said.

Competition would make the market grow rather than lead to a switch from one airline to another, he said.

Also, with just three Embraers, Pacific Blue could not match Air New Zealand's regional schedule using 50 aircraft.:rolleyes:

Mr Parton said the Embraer 190's operating costs were up to 30 per cent higher than the ATR72, making it unsustainable.

Pacific Blue's Adrian Hamilton-Manns countered that the airline had a 40 per cent cost advantage over Air New Zealand. "It works for us."

Mr Parton said a key plank of the review would be to bring maintenance of the three regional aircraft types under one roof to reduce costs and the amount of time aircraft spent on the ground.

Each of the airlines operates a different aircraft type and targets a specific market.

Eagle Air and Air Nelson maintain their own Beech 1900Ds and Bombardier Q300s. Mount Cook Airline's ATRs are maintained by one of Air New Zealand's main engineering facilities. There were several options for a new base outside of the existing maintenance facilities at Hamilton and Nelson. Air New Zealand also had engineering facilities in Blenheim, Dunedin and Invercargill, which could be expanded.

"It is really about marrying a work force and infrastructure and then working with the local communities that want to develop this because it is a huge employment opportunity.":confused:

The airlines would continue to be managed from the regions, with no plans to combine them in a single head office.:ok:

Mr Parton said no target for savings had been set for the review, which was not aimed at job cuts.

Air Nelson general manager John Hambleton has been appointed project director for the review starting July 1.:ooh:

[Massey058]

The airlines would continue to be managed from the regions, with no plans to combine them in a single head office.

Surely such a statement is a bit presumptuous before the review? JH may be keen to keep the crews on differing meal allowances but there could be savings in removing some managerial duplication.

I understand aside from the HR element there are reasons for maintaining separate AOC's.

[distracted cockroach]

Take anything Mr Parton says with a large grain of salt.
Not for nothing is he known as "Fibber" Parton:=

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Has anyone else heard the rumour that some Mt Chook pilots are facing the chop?

If so is this just negotiation threats similiar to JHs one to downsize the Nelson base or has the review already been done.

[6080ft]

I'll back that comment about Parton. I have witnessed him sit there and outright lie on tv. what a c?!k.

[Sqwark2000]

Re: Mount Cook - email to pilot group from LOM, saying there were plans to park an ATR from July which would put the roster 7 pilots over and there should be a sign off soon to replace the fixed base sim with a electric motion sim, to be on-line early 2010, that'll create another 7 excess pilots due to not travelling to BKK. So 14 pilots in the firing line. Some junior co's have been rung as well and told to not go making or committing to large financial transactions etc... I guess the new Gm will tackle this when she comes on board in june

[goodspeed]

What memo?

The most recent literature/propaganda from Air NZ management was talking about the respect they have for very well funded and organised domestic competitors.

By the end of 2009 there will still be (at least) 3 major operators domestically in NZ. They will all be a little bit poorer.... but still there. We all know how to make a small fortune in aviation....

As for the domestic turbo prop review, it is just a REVIEW. See if things can be done better. That could encompass a massive range of ideas not just those effecting pilots and cabin crew in their daily routines.

[billyt]

Yes, what memo? Sounds like the old proverbial to me.

If it is high level and you have access to it then I apologize. Sure hasn't reached the lower levels.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Isn't it funny that dispite a very large proportion of Air NZs profit coming from the three regional carriers,they are looking at making Mt Cook pilots redundent but manage to keep the jet guys at a time when the international operation is returning sweet fanny adams.

Air Nsn are still hiring and I know the excess Mt Cook pilots would be more than welcome to come cruise around in the Dash until things picked up. Hell they are doing it for the Air Force.

Unfortunately Air NZ does not give a toss about its staff outside of the jet fleet. This has been demonstrated by their reaction to the Zeal FAs wanting pay parity with their Air NZ conterparts.

I reckon this review has already been done and JH being the individual that he is has been given this role to slash and burn. The interesting question is what are ALPA going to do about it.

[julietmikepapa]

Isn't it funny that dispite a very large proportion of Air NZs profit coming from the three regional carriers,they are looking at making Mt Cook pilots redundent but manage to keep the jet guys at a time when the international operation is returning sweet fanny adams.

Well Air NZ has told ALPA that they will be invoking the clause of the CEA which deals with manpower planning and leave issues in a potential redundancy situation.

So don't think that a particular pilot group are being singled out. We all are!

[Bongo Bus Driver]

There is a bit of a difference between forcing people to take their leave and forcing people to leave JMP

BP has stated in the media that he would lay off pilots at Air Nsn and Eagle because they could not fly into uncontrolled airspace during ATC breaks. Even though they fly into unattended feilds everyday.

Now Mt Cook pilots have been told they are facing the chop and he has appointed a hard nose accountant with a reputation for screwing his staff to conduct a review of the regionals. I say thats being singled out.

[myturn]

JH is not an accountant is he? Hard nosed YES. Air NZ has to do something all the same, they must be sh12ing with J* and PB.

[goodspeed]

While i'm sure they have respect for the competition, I'm sure it has more to do with surviving the economic climate and being well placed after the storm has passed.

I think if you were to talk to one of the 8 Mt Cook pilots phoned you might find the company is more being prudent and polite and giving them the worst case scenario rather than saying "your down the road buddy"

And this thing about planning for IF PB was to exit the market...... horse poop. Nothing would change. If anything PB would be well advised to have a plan to fly over 10 aircraft pilots and cabin crew from aust for if air NZ collapsed.

AGAIN.... everyone will still be here at christmas time wondering what the new year is going to bring, who is going to fall over. Some of you probably hoping someone will. But not much is going to change, except large profits, share prices and fortunes will be smaller. Hopefully we can all continue to be paid every fortnight and enjoy catching up on overnights or passing in the terminals.

[27/09]

I love the irony in Air NZ circulating memos about the demise of PB and making contingencies for when they fall over in 2 weeks, 4 weeks ago now.

On Guard,
Which orifice do you put your toothbrush in?




BP has stated in the media that he would lay off pilots at Air Nsn and Eagle because they could not fly into uncontrolled airspace during ATC breaks. Even though they fly into unattended feilds everyday.


Bongo,
I don't think BP has a good record of getting his "facts" right, I think it was obvious to most that this was a tactic to make the effect of the Airways actions look to be far worse than reality in order to force some action politically.

[slamer.]

There is a bit of a difference between forcing people to take their leave and forcing people to leave.


Allocating leave in this manner is one of a number of steps on the road to redundancy and has serious implications. I think you may be underestimating its significance.

I would hope you agree, it is best for all pilots to burn off any surplus leave in an effort to avoid/minimize potential job losses and/or downtraining.

[Hanz Blix]

Re: Mount Cook - email to pilot group from LOM, saying there were plans to park an ATR from July which would put the roster 7 pilots over and there should be a sign off soon to replace the fixed base sim with a electric motion sim, to be on-line early 2010, that'll create another 7 excess pilots due to not travelling to BKK. So 14 pilots in the firing line. Some junior co's have been rung as well and told to not go making or committing to large financial transactions etc... I guess the new Gm will tackle this when she comes on board in june

S2K it's not really the place to quote LOM on said email!!! This email was put out as a possible scenario and has not been discussed with the union at this stage (this must be done before they even go about contacting crew:=)

Now when and if we park up this ATR in July and when and if they sign off on the sim (looking more like mid 2010 according to the man in charge of it) we will be overstaffed but we also know 12 months is a long time in aviation:ok:

[goodspeed]

The leave allocation to surplus and excess leave is not really a biggie. Yes, it is the first step in the road to redundancies.

But the companies hand has been forced somewhat. There was a proposal to some of the senior ranks that they could each take some leave.

The idea was if every Captain on the 77 and 74 agreed to take 2 weeks of their retirement leave over the next year there will (currently) be no more down training or possibility of redundancy.

That proposal was rejected. So now annual leave will be allocated. Hopefully to give some gentlemen an experience of retirement, that they might quite like.

Not holding my breath tho. Any over 65's care to comment?

[kangaroota]

JH might come to the same conclusion as many others, that is that "The Group" is a millstone around the neck of the Link operators.:}

[fly real fast]

How many over 65's do Air NZ have at the moment? Time to start logging OOR's when the old boys sleep the whole way to destination. Time to retire and enter that rest home. Give the young guys at the bottom of the seniority list with young families a chance...

[c100driver]

At least two over 70 on the B744

[sexy time]

No point in trying to get an over 65's reaction on this forum - and please don't insult us by defending any Freedom employees - they got what they signed up for - sorry the pilots ended up getting far more than they deserved!!

[skol]

There's no one over 70 on the 744, that's incorrect.
The oldest is 69.
Everyone got what they wanted.
Air NZ, the Govt, the public, CAA, ALPA, no one wanted a fixed retirement age so there's no reason to complain.

[BBMouse]

They have as much right to be there as i have to hate them for it.

Seems like something really wrong with our "colleuges" when they won't take a holiday in order to keep young fellas with families in a job!

[billyt]

Just thinking of yourself BBMouse. How do you know what leave any of the older guys have booked? Or anyone else for that matter. At this stage no one has been made redundant and every avenue is being looked at to avoid that at all costs.

Hate is a very strong word. Looking at your age I think that 55 retiring was long gone before you had your first job so you knew when you started.

While I don't want to go past 60 I feel it will be my duty to so as the likes of you are p****d off.

[goodspeed]

Billy T, I see your point................. But.

The old coots are the only ones with retirement leave. They sold it long ago. And they have bucket loads of it!

The over 65's in general are incompetent. Yeah, they can pass sims after 6 days off at 2 in the afternoon with very little pressure extendend on them by their sim instructor buddies. But get them to make an extension on the final fix while being radar vectored into London or HK after a long nights flying, na. They are slowing down like the rest of will when we get to that age. I wont say it wont happen to me, because it will.

Most of them are pleasant enough people. Not too many aholes left. But just old coots who rely on the rest of the crew to get the job done.

So your next question will be, why do they continue to pass route checks and sim checks.

Answer is I dont know. A systemic failure in the system? Or are they just lazy when it comes to line flying? Perhaps both.

And billy t, BB Mouse was not thinking of himself. In fact i think he is actually thinking of those at the bottom of seniority who hopefully wont be affected.

Your welcome to stay past 60. hell your welcome to stay past 65. its your call. But don't bring that attitude to the flight deck. You wont be welcome at the pub.

[Split Flap]

11 guys over 65 (one turns 70 this year), another 6 will turn 65 in the next year.
40 people over 60 but under 65.

Will be pretty sad to see a young guy with a family out on the street (fingers crossed it dosent happen) while some of these chaps who have had their day continue to ride the train. :=

[Split Flap]

Real nice attitude there billyT, I suspect your attitude might be somewhat different if your name was the last on the GOP list.

[billyt]

Come on guys. Where in my post did have an "attitude". I merely commented on a posting that stated that "the older guys were not taking leave and that was going to send people down the road." Read it again. No one wants to see any redundancies. If we get to that stage then I hope that those guys will do the decent thing and consider retiring. It is not their fault there is a surplus of pilots. Four new pilots were employed less than 12 months ago. Incentive hours have been driven down by the company over the last year or two which has removed a buffer to prevent redundancies. This recession is unfortunate but not the only reason we are in this situation. The company are doing their best to keep everyone on so have to be commended for that. Let's just hope things don't get any worse.

[fly real fast]

And the over 65's retire so we don't have to carry them anymore...

[Cpt Link Hog]

Interesting... soundz like Blood in the water at Uncle Koru, I know they have trimmed fat from managment parked couple 74's and a few other areas but Pilots under the knife really?

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Can someone tell us what the Air NZ contract states when it comes to redunancies?

Do they have to ask for volunteers or just discuss the option?

Is the payout a flat 52 weeks or based on time in the company?

Please advise.

[Split Flap]

To put the lot here would take up to much room.

Basically:

Use all leave.
Reduce all pilots to the Incentive pay threshold, across all fleets.
Downtraining.
Volunteers and LWOP.
Redundancies in reverse seniority.

Redundancy paypayouts are pro-rata depending on lenght of service.

I think at the moment that redundancies would be unlikely, however it wouldn't take much more of a fall of demand and it may be possible.

Just my opinion.

[Bombay]

Which of the following do you think is true? Why do the old pilots keep on flying? Is it because they:

a) have no life outside of flying
b) are tighter than a tight thing
c) can't bear to dip into the super and want to keep earning the big bucks
d) are on wife number three and have lost it all already...twice
e) all of the above

Do you really expect them to move on over into retirement just to save the jobs of young guns at the bottom of the list? Come on. When we're in their position, we'll be exactly the same. We'll be thinking about our own interests and retire when and where it suits us. When you're at the top of the list, you're making the biggest bucks. That's why they hang around, plain and simple.

I don't believe there are any old pilots in history who retired principally because they felt the need to move over and let someone else have a go. Sad, but true. The world is all about looking after number one. The old pilots do it, and so will we. Admit it.

That said, who am I kidding? I want them to go too so we can all move up the list and make more money.

[slamer.]

none of the above

F- Are on wife number one

:E

[skol]

Some will have taken a severe financial battering and will be licking their wounds, something not unique to pilots, it's everywhere, and in such a poor investment climate it's unlikely many will want to pull the pin, particularly if they're in debt.

Their super will also have been affected quite dramatically, so will hang on hoping for an improvement in the payout.

[sexy time]

Would these be the same people who have enjoyed the retirement age being raised from 55 to 60 then 65 - some of them have had a 'bonus' 10 years at the top!

[skol]

Quite possibly, doesn't make any difference, I said that financial difficulties were common in society at the moment and for some it's financial ruin.
Greed flourished over the last few years and many borrowed and lived beyond their means, they still have to pay it back.
I'm not just referring to aircrew, it's a worldwide phenomenon, millions of people around the world are in negative equity for example, the mortgage exceeding the value of the property, making it impossible to sell unless you can afford the loss.
Few super schemes are ahead in the last financial year and who knows how those that joined Kiwisaver have fared-depends on which scheme they chose to deposit their funds.

Those with more money like those who remained after 65 may have more to lose. Who knows, they're not going to tell you.

I was reading in the Wall Street Journal yesterday that the richest americans are down an average of 30%.

[distracted cockroach]

Which just goes to show the old coots should have retired a year ago and they would have been soooo much better off!!
As one of them told me once, if you are walking down the street and the guy in front of you keeps dropping $100 notes on the ground, why would you stop picking them up?
I certainly agree that they should be taking their leave though. Lord knows they get enough of it.

[distracted cockroach]

Sexy time wrote: "and please don't insult us by defending any Freedom employees - they got what they signed up for - sorry the pilots ended up getting far more than they deserved!!"

You sir, are a cock. If you sign a contract does that mean you have to give up all rights to negotiate a new one when it expires? Those FAs could be doing their Air NZ shorthaul colleagues a big favour....especially if the fleet review ends up going Airbus for the domestic operation. Who would be surplus to requirements then?

And the Freedom pilots got exactly what they negotiated, with ALPA's assistance. Was it deserved? Depends how you define it, but I bet they could hardly believe their luck. Good for them. You sound jealous. Perhaps you should have joined Freedom and then you would have the same deal.
Life is about choices....sometimes they work out well, other times they dont. If your's didn't, don't begrudge others just because their's did!!

[6080ft]

distracted cockroach - great post! It seems you have realised the implications of the zeal debate - unlike so many other nz employees who simply choose to believe the company propoganda.

[Cloud Cutter]

Ditto! Thanks DC, I'm sick of some of the bitter and twisted idiots on here who are only out for themselves.

[sexy time]

Touchy subject, not bitter and twisted - simply reflecting the feelings of the majority!

Ironic that there are some Freedom 'scabs' bitching about their 'hard deal' - they are probably one of those that failed a real ANZ interview and have resorted to the 'back door'

Yeah 'back door' about sums it up!

[terronnd]

It is interesting to note that per pilot Freedom had a much higher number of ALPA pilots than Air NZ. Perhaps you should look at your own crowd sexy before you start passing judgement on others.

The Freedom pilots are no more 'back door' than the NAC pilots, or Air NZ pilots depending on how you see things.

You should be pleased there is an ALPA wanting to do the right thing by its members, you never know when it might be you.

[slamer.]

Call them what you will, but I think its a bit of a far reach to call the (even some) Freedom pilots scabs...!

Whats more I havent heard any of them (so far) bitchin about a hard deal

[Cpt Link Hog]

No dought the Freedom boys got in through the "Trademans entrance" and good for them, hows that; pay for a 733 few hours there then get free A320 do some time and now 74 or 777 + keep there same $$ being a S/O approx 50k more than your ANZ buddies that do the same Job gotta love that.

Ironic thing is if ANZ did tip up these lads would most likly be in the box seat as far as getting a new job with other Airlines.

[distracted cockroach]

.....and for a lot of the Freedom guys, the Air NZ deal was actually a pay cut!! I doubt many of them are complaining...unless they like the feel of 4 stripes on the shoulder more than the feeling of (relative) job security.... and if that was the case there are other options.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Just heard on the news that Air NZ are chopping pilots and cabin crew from the domestic and regional operations. About 40 I believe. Since everything in the news is usually part truth topped up with a heap of BS can anyone shed some light oh this?

[c100driver]

It did not say chopping, it said potential surplus.


a review of crewing requirements to meet existing customer demand has identified a potential surplus of up to 40 cabin crew and pilots in regional airline and domestic jet operations

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Well if you want to get technical heres the NZPA article.

NZPA
Air NZ to cut more jobs
Friday May 29, 03:34 PM

Air New Zealand is reducing capacity by a further 3 percent, and is signalling 80 job losses.

It is also reiterating a call for increased government funding of tourism promotion.

The Hong Kong to London service will reduce from daily to five days a week from mid-October and there will be reduced services on some domestic routes serviced by regional airlines.

The airline said it had a surplus of up to 40 cabin crew and pilots in regional airline and domestic jet operations.

There may be a further loss of around 40 airport handling roles in Auckland and Christchurch as a result of Qantas terminating its domestic services.

Air NZ is also looking for more flexibility from workers on its A320 aircraft flying the trans-Tasman route.

It has been cutting capacity to keep load factors up as the number of people travelling declines due to the global economic downturn.

"Air New Zealand will cut group wide capacity for the 2010 financial year by a further 3 percent in response to reducing demand as consumers tighten their belts in the face of the global economic recession," the airline said today.

It has entered into discussions with unions on how to minimise any potential job losses from the cut in capacity.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: NZPA

[WLGHilton]

Now the blow torch is on your a$$es guys. Enjoy the heat...

[DeltaT]

hmmm, do the airforce pilots on loan get chopped first?

[who_cares]

DT

Good call

[6080ft]

and the contract pilots........???

[WLGHilton]

A good forum to discuss this, but I reckon you should be down at your Union office asking these same questions. Your biggest problem is that you are already divided (ALPA & Dead Pilots Society). The stage was set in 1990 and with contract pilots and loaners from the airfarce, tread very carefully or you'll be needing the vaseline.

[Sqwark2000]

And how about Air Nelson stops hiring newbies and offers seats to potentially redundant link pilots????

[Hanz Blix]

It really is time for ALPA to step up and earn their money. Contractors and Airforce out first.
My two cents: Approach your local MP if you are truely worried :ok:

[Bongo Bus Driver]

The problem is the Air Force are paying Air Nsn for them to fly. They cost nothing. The real question is if there is no flying for the Air Force then why not make them redundent too? Civie pilots get chopped when there is no flying for them. And before you say it I know they are waiting for the P3 and Herc upgrades but Air NZ is also waiting for the 777 and 787 and both will require more pilots in the future. Air NZ cannot afford to hold onto theirs.

In fact Air NZ cuts jobs to maximise profit. They then pay dividends to the shareholders, the government, who use the dividends to pay surplus RNZAF pilots. This is going to be a very hard pill to swallow when the axe falls.

As for the newbies I have to agree. It was becoming very apparent late last year that there was a recession on the way and jobs in all industries would be lost. Why hire new guys when a redistribution could have prevented redundancy? I am sure that any pilot facing the chop will be happy to ride around in a Dash until the dust settles. Hell some will probably already be rated.

So what are you going to do ALPA? The fight you have started for the JC pilots is great. Shows a bit of mongrel going to the PM to point out he is back tracking on the key election promise of raising salaries to those found in Australia. Good stuff.

Now lets see the same balls for the regionals.

[horserun]

I knew about the airforce boys (only two of them). But I didnt think there were any contract pilots in the link group???

I havent seen much of Vincent and Air Nat round the place. I guess they were the first to go.

[Sqwark2000]

Several contract pilots at Eagle..... None at mt. cook, not sure about Nelson except for Flying Officer's Bloggs and Jones.

I heard that Vincent laid off all their NZ based pilots, retaining a few as casuals for the odd charter etc...

[horserun]

REALLY???? It will be a shame not seeing the Vincent boys and girls round the place!!


I wouldn't worry about the air force holding up our jobs.....there is only two of them!! (nice guys too).

[distracted cockroach]

Tai hoa a bit here lads...I've been away from the coalface for a while, but has anyone actually been given the hard word yet, or are we over-reacting to yet another company statement?
I know ALPA are in discussions with the company, and the Air NZ mainline contract requires a lot of hoops to be jumped through before anyone goes down the road. I hope the Link contracts have similar clauses?

[purplemonkydishwashr]

Yes D C. Many hoops to be jumped thru yet.
You also have to wonder what the long term value is of letting 20ish pilots go in a combined pilot group of 1300 plus, when there are at least 2 fleet replacement/additions coming up soon, combined with many baby boomer retirements on the horizon. Leverage for 'recession negotiations' is my bet

[haughtney1]

As much as I hold out hope for those guys and girls who may be under the cosh in the near future......
I'm not feeling confident for you lot.
Answer this question honestly....when in the history of airline management has there been a time where the individuals in their ivory towers have been anything other than short-sighted and short-term in their mentality and management style?