WW1 Training

[Dr Jekyll]

Watching Aces High on ITV4 there is a reference to new pilots being posted to the front line with only 15 hours flying.

How much flying did they really have? (I appreciate it must have changed during the course of the war).

Was there a planned training regime or did they just send pilots off when they seemed competent enough?

[Saab Dastard]

People always seem to exaggerate how low the training hours were - not really borne out in contemporary accounts and diaries.

Training was pretty haphazard earlier in the war, but by 1917 the Gosport system had been introduced which systematised training considerably.

From what I understand, typical RFC training would have been 10-20 hours elementary training, followed by between 40-50 hours advanced training, probably with at least 10 hours on front-line type before arriving in France.

Depending on the period of the war somewhere between 50 - 80 hours total time - if they were lucky! Of course there were exceptions, there are cases with pilots with as few as 30 hours, or as little as 4 hours on type joining front line squadrons.

15 hours on squadron type - i.e. single seater fighter - would be typical, however, so perhaps that's what the Aces High figure refers to.

Also, it was common earlier in the war for trainees to fly as observers, and there is no doubt that the amount of training increased as the war went on - although sometimes reduced if losses in the front line squadrons mounted drastically, as occurred on a number of occasions.

There was an alarmingly high accident and fatality rate in training - over 8,000 cadets were killed in training accidents during the war. I don't know how this compares to combat losses, but it's probably a high proportion of total losses.

SD

[Background Noise]

I read a good book on the early days of the RFC, prior to them deploying to France, and in many cases it was lot less than that. Pilots were given wings if they could ride (horses obviously). The conjecture being that if they had enough poise and balance to ride they would naturally be able to fly. Prior to the Gosport tube, the only time that an instructor could communicate with the student was in the quiet moment just before a stall.

[DeepestSouth]

Cecil Lewis in his excellent book 'Sagittarius Rising' records that he was sent to France in March 1916, flying BE2cs at St Omer with 14 hours!

[4Greens]

The training they missed out on was recovery from a spin. Spin recovery was not yet fully understood. This could have accounted for a number of accidents.

[Saab Dastard]

There's an interesting book on the history of spinning, with the somewhat sensationalist title of "Only Seconds to Live", by Dunstan Hadley.

He traces the history of the problem and the development of theoretical and practical understanding of how spinning occurs and - more importantly - how it is counteracted, starting with "Parke's Dive" in 1912.

It is clear that widespread understanding of spin recovery - on an empirical basis - didn't happen until about 1917.

Interestingly, Professor Lindemann (later Churchill's trusted scientific adviser, Lord Cherwell), was to the fore in developing the theoretical understanding of spinning.

SD

[CoodaShooda]

I seem to recall from his autobiography, Winged Victory, James McCudden was made an instructor with 9 and a bit hours total time.

[4Greens]

Sort of thread creep. I had a Sergeant pilot as an instructor at RAF flying training who said he had 30 hours before flying a Spitfire in the second world war. He was shot down on his first mission.

[Dr Jekyll]

There is the apocryphal story of the Polish air force officer who joined an RAF squadron in WW2. It took him a long time to convert to the Hurricane and his instructors assumed he must have been a bomber pilot, eventually one of his former colleagues joined the squadron and explained that he had actually been a navigator.

[VfrpilotPB/2]

Last week the 1962(?) Film "The Battle of Britain" with Kenneth More and Michael Caine plus various other famous folk stated replacemnt pilots for the defending Sqdns were arriving on station with 9 and 10 hours Spit time, being an avid fan of all things Aeronautical that seems to tie in with the desperate straights we seemed to have been in at that time, ...pity the Yanks hadnt woken up to the forthcomming problems then!

Peter R-B
Vfr

[Agaricus bisporus]

I had a helicopter instructor who was on the second Royal Navy course on the Sikorsky R4 (1944 iirc?). His instructor sent him solo at 3 1/2 hours, with 7 hrs total rotary time himself. No-one had even heard of autorotation or vortex ring back then...At least all he had to do was learn to control the beast, not learn aviation from scratch.

Still, in pioneering times that's how it happened. Needs must when the Devil rides!

[Brian Abraham]

If I recall correctly the infamous Eric "Winkle" Brown went to Liverpool to collect a Sikorsky R4 and fly it to where ever not having any previous hands on knowledge of helicopters. Respect. :D

[Dan Winterland]

"How much flying did they really have?"

Twenty minutes? :rolleyes:

"You're not in the Women's Auxillery Balloon Corps now!"

[Saab Dastard]

I seem to recall from his autobiography, Winged Victory, James McCudden was made an instructor with 9 and a bit hours total time.

I have a copy of Flying Fury: Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps, James Thomas Byford McCudden - I think that's the book you are referring to. He writes himself that it was only 8 hours! But he had already amassed considerable experience as a mechanic and observer in the preceding years.

Winged Victory is a 1934 novel by English World War I fighter pilot Victor Maslin Yeates. I haven't read it, so perhaps he too - like McCudden - had minimal hours before becoming an instructor.

SD

[IslandPilot]

As all RFC pilots were required to hold the Royal Aero Club Aviators Certificate before being accepted for military training, they had acquired basic handling skills before undergoing military flying training . The manoevers required to obtain the RAeC Cert. were fairly basic, but the aircraft of the day were difficult to handle and often underpowered. My fathers military flying training during 1915/16 amounted to 26 hours (interrupted by a crash following engine failure in a Caudron) which included tactics, gunnery, bombing etc before he qualified as a "First Class Flyer" (NCO), and was posted to France to fly BE2C's.

[CoodaShooda]

Saab D

Thanks for the corrections. You are correct.

With hindsight, I made a grave error in donating my 500 book collection to our local library 15 years ago.

Sadly, my only recollection of Winged Victory is that it was a great read and his character went from glorying in the sight and sounds of the English countryside to total apathy in the space of one tour. (At least that's what I think I remember. :confused::})

[Saab Dastard]

I made a grave error in donating my 500 book collection to our local library 15 years ago

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I am under some pressure to dispose of some or all of my aviation and history library, but there are some things more important than marriage! Why is it that so few women understand this? :p

SD

[ColinB]

I recall this book as one of the best I ever read and it introduced me to Remember by Christina Rossetti, which I now use to great effect in Eulogies at funerals.
Although he went to France as a young man, with few flying hours, didn't he spend some time on an Air Park before he was transferred to the front line?
I would also recommend The Mint by TE Lawrence. The passage at the end where he goes on his motor-bike to Stamford to get eggs and bacon to fry on the stove in the billet with his mates seems to me that he was at last at peace with himself.
A marvellous and touching story of life as it was in the inter war years in the RAF

[DeepestSouth]

Cecil Lewis

Yes, he was posted No 1 Aircraft Depot at St Omer in March 1916 with 14 hours, then to 9 Sqn near Amiens flying the BE2c with 20 hours but was told to build up his hours as with 20 he was no good to his Flt Cdr. His first operation, with about 30 hours, was photography of enemy second-line trenches - and was attacked by a Fokker but escaped AND got his photos.

Sagittarius Rising is a truly memorable book!

[CoodaShooda]

Wind in the Wires by Duncan Grinnell-Milne is also a good read, comparing the early RFC on BE2's to SE5's with 56 Sqn at the end. (He was a guest of the Kaiser for the bit in the middle.)