View Full Version : Balpa to challenge ID cards

5th May 2009, 06:26
I leave it for you to follow

Pilots refuse to take part in national identity card trials | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/04/identity-cards-airline-pilots)

5th May 2009, 10:04
Excellent news.

Worth my 1% on its own.

5th May 2009, 10:20
Also in the London Evening Standard:

Pilots to boycott trial of ID cards | News (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23685513-details/Pilots+to+boycott+trial+of+ID+cards/article.do)

Airline pilots will refuse to take part in the national identity card scheme when trials begin at London City and Manchester airports this autumn.

>>The British Airline Pilots' Association will raise a legal challenge to Home Office plans to use "critical" airside workers to test the scheme.

MPs will shortly be asked to approve powers to force pilots and airside staff to register for ID cards as part of checks before they are employed. The scheme will try to persuade air staff to sign up by waiving the 30 registration fee.

Balpa has protested that the ID card scheme cannot be considered voluntary when workers will not be able to get an airport pass without one.<<

5th May 2009, 10:36
Also an excellent article in the Gaurdian by Jim McAuslan:

We refuse to be ID card guinea pigs | Jim McAuslan | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/may/05/identity-cards-pilots)

>>Our members must have an airside pass to operate aircraft and now discover that to get that pass they must have a national ID card. They are told, "You don't actually have to one" but no card equals no pass, which equals no job. This is coercion and, by trialling the scheme in Manchester and London City airports, the government is clearly attempting to isolate pockets of resistance.<<


>>Our members, who aim to be the ultimate professionals, increasingly have a sense that a line is being crossed in the relationship between state and citizen; a sense that Big Brother knows best.<<

Chesty Morgan
5th May 2009, 11:47
The 30 fee is to be waived as an incentive for them to sign up.

Wow, thanks very much, it almost makes me want to have one now.

5th May 2009, 17:02
Hell, get two and save twice as much!

Paradise Lost
5th May 2009, 18:02
Well done BALPA...........yaah! boo sucks to those devious gits in the Home Office who have not conceded one jot their intention to bring these despised and loathed ID cards. Maybe we won't have to have one for our airside passes, but it looks like we are all going to have one eventually. How typical of this shower of self-serving egotists that they have issued the contracts to proceed with ID cards, despite both opposition parties saying that they would scrap the plans if elected. No doubt the current incumbents are just making sure that they get a couple of lucrative directorships before their time is up!

5th May 2009, 18:24
And from this side of the pond, another instance of a government out of control.

TBO.com - News From AP (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EMERGENCY_LANDING_FINE?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US)

5th May 2009, 18:39
6th or 7th comment down - 'Just say NO'. Perhaps, at last,a chance to present a unified front which we (as a group) always seem loathed to do.

5th May 2009, 22:15
Given the state of public finances and the fact that the next government has pledged to scrap the National ID Card scheme, it's amazing that this dying government has not canceled this doomed scheme before it wastes any more of our money. Yet another illustration of them putting their image ahead of what's right for the counrty. I hope they're in oposition for a generation:*

5th May 2009, 22:21
...the recent signing of two 10-year contracts worth 650m to get the ID cards programme under way...

Part of their scorched earth policy I guess? The only thing they've done a good job of is leaving the Tories nothing to work with.

5th May 2009, 22:43
I wish you all the very best of luck. The billions that are to be wasted on this scheme beggars belief - but then so much has been wasted recently.

Bally Heck
5th May 2009, 23:09
Ermm. Just wondering if posession of an ID card might entitle one to watch porny movies on the telly at taxpayer's expense? Seems fair to me. 35 off and free porn. I feel sure that the Home secretary and her husband will be at the front of the queue.

6th May 2009, 00:16
And if Pilots are not required, I take it the rest of the airport workers will not be required to participate also ?

If your going to swan through the VP point and I have to validate my genital card, don't even think about pushing in front of me, even if you have priority.

Help us mortals.

No need really, BAA security can only manage a BAA pass and a temp pass, anything more than that and their brains would explode.

6th May 2009, 05:31
A couple of months ago the Home Office admitted that they haven't issued card readers to the Police or Immigration - even though they've been issuing ID cards since November:ugh:


6th May 2009, 06:50
Last night and carrying on to this morning LBC (a london talk radio station) has covered the story of the id cards and how crew are going to be the test subjects. I was surprised there was not a single repost from anyone in the industry having observed threads such as this.

6th May 2009, 09:21
"Balpa man" has been on the TV this morning whinging about this - so I guess it must be serious !!!

With a DVLC licence, CAA licence, JAR licence, NI card, birth certificate, Mickey Mouse membership and several airside passes...... we now need an ID card to get to the aeroplane.

Does anyone know whether this is just for Airlines and major airports, or is it mandatory for the average PPL going anywhere near Manchester to have one as well.

No comment from the CAA yet - they are obviously on the ball as usual !!!

6th May 2009, 10:21
From Hong Kong we use ID cards and they work *exceptionally* well

For all govt, drivers licence, banks, utilities, services, libraries, hospitals, employers or any ID required this one card is used - including passport control for residents through HK is fully automated using a thumb print as well. Saves standing in queue ala Heathrow for

Agree that without having this integration of services above, sounds like a waste of time - If you can make it work, this will be a huge step forward in simplifying your daily lives in the amazingly dire technology level in the UK.

Lastly for all the Guardian reading beardies citing Government control and Big Brother, the government already hold all and any info 'they' need on you :E

6th May 2009, 10:23
id like to ask jackboots jaqui smith ,if it is safer/better for pilots and airport workers to have 2 id cards ,can she give me a proper reason as to why 3 or 4 or even 10 id cards would not be even safer.......it' utter rubbish,well done balpa. 1 ID card is enough! That is all an alitalia or KLM crew will need to get airside in the UK ,but UK crews will need 2...utter BXXXXXXX!!!

6th May 2009, 13:54
So, what will happen to pass holders who refuse the ID card and loose their jobs, at pass expiry?

Will BALPA foot the bills to keep the families afloat?

Who's first then?

6th May 2009, 15:25
No one will lose their job. Don't be so bloody dramatic. What, you think that an airline is going to fire its pilots for failing to take part in this ludicrous scheme? I don't think so somehow.

To those making a stand against this pointless (in so many ways) scheme: you have my full and unreserved support. Thank you for fighting this on behalf of the overwhelming majority of the public. Good luck!

6th May 2009, 15:39
No-one will lose their job, Nick?
You must be joking.
No Bl**dy pass, No bl**dy job mate.
Just wait and see!! The airlines will just fall in line
with whatever Gordy and his Cronies tell them.

BAA? Barstewards Against Aviation mate!!!

6th May 2009, 16:23
From Hong Kong we use ID cards and they work *exceptionally* well

Just because something is acceptable in your native Chinese culture does not mean it would be acceptable in our native British culture.

The UK Government is NOT to be trusted with an ID Cards scheme - not least because of the all encompassing National Identity Register (NIR) that sits behind it. Every time the ID Card is used an entry is made on the NIR. Thus the state builds up a picture over time of what you do and where you go. The NIR would also have links to other governent databases so allowing civil servants access to a huge range of information about you.

Exactly how do you think I, as a private citizen, would benefit from this? If I need to identify myself (and I rarely do outside work) then there are number of different ways I can choose to do this and there is NO recording of the information.

I refuse to have an ID Card and protest most strongly that I may be denied an airside pass and employment as a result of my point of view.

Shanwick Shanwick
6th May 2009, 16:25
What's the problem?

Bally Heck
6th May 2009, 18:10
The problem Shanwick is that we are already one of the most surveilled societies in the world.

We have a corrupt and dishonourable government, a partially corrupt and dishonourable police force (who are quite happy to remove their own mandatory identification numbers when they intend assault the people they are paid to protect).

We have an army of jobsworth busybodies intent on building their own empires at any cost, and these people need power.

Due to the policies of the present prime minister we have as big a national dept as has been seen in peacetime, yet willing to spend billions on this project. Why??.

These people want everyone to have identity cards to bolster their own pathetic egos and powerbases.

Will it stop a suicide bomber? I don't see how. Most of the London bombers were homegrown were they not?

Will it stop identity theft? How do you use it over the internet? Does it shred your confidential papers?

Personally I will never carry one. If one is forced on me (and I won't be paying!) It will end up being recycled. After all there is no requirement to carry it.

The most compelling reason for not going ahead with the scheme is that government IT projects almost always end up over budget and not functional. The data gets lost, they get hacked, they can't even keep their own personal foibles secret far less ours!

Within a year of the project going live, false ID cards will be available. Supporting data will be hacked into government computers and the country will be billions of pounds poorer.

6th May 2009, 20:19
I'ts hard to believe anyone could be in favour of the National Identity card database.
Obviously those people have no idea what is actually going on. As there is another thread with all the info on already in existance there is no point in repeating it all.
Enough to say, good for BALPA......Keep up the fight...:ok:

6th May 2009, 20:29
It's an extension of the 'surveillance society'.

My local, tiny, rail station has FIFTEEN CCTV cameras.

Any don't kid yourself with the old 'I've nothing to hide and therefore nothing to fear' mantra.

A mate of mine who found himself in dire need of a pee (on a train with a u/s bog), came within an ace of being arrested for "exposing himself to a CCTV camera" when peeing.

It's dead easy to become a crim in CCTV land.

ID cards is just more of the same.

Oi! ID! Now!:mad:

6th May 2009, 20:32
I'm not exactly endeared to BALPA (completely dominated in the ranks by BA) and imho always considered it a waste of money. However I have to say I am impressed by this latest action. Shows they have a bit of balls. I might start putting my hand in my pocket.

6th May 2009, 21:05
I have lived in a country where ID cards were used for everything and I thought it quite good.

HOWEVER, I can't see the bloody point of these new cards, as they don't fill a role or simplify any part of my life. If I ended up getting one it would only sit in the desk draw!!!

I would accept the cards if it meant I could combine my driver's license, airside pass and passport all into one. Who cares if it can get me back into the UK, I'd still have to carry my passport to enter another country!!!

England is in a very dark place, muppets running it and another lot waiting in the wings to take over.

Right England bend over!!!

6th May 2009, 21:14
HOWEVER, I can't see the bloody point of these new cards, as they don't fill a role or simplify any part of my life. If I ended up getting one it would only sit in the desk draw!!!

Couldn't agree more - when they're trialed in Manchester, the number of businesses, authorities and any other outlet where ID may be required, who have agreed to recognised ID cards is.......................................................... ............................................................ ............................................................ .................................. ZERO:rolleyes::hmm::ugh:

6th May 2009, 22:29
To quote the late Gwyneth Dunwoody MP (lab) 'the only people who to produce these cards with any degree of efficiency will be the criminal classes'.

6th May 2009, 22:59
Within a year of the project going live, false ID cards will be available.

That long? Google 'fake ID' and a whole host of sites come up. You can get a fake licence now so as soon as the design of any ID card is known you'll be able to get one of those too.


Max Angle
7th May 2009, 05:29
government IT projects almost always end up over budget and not functional.

And not just slightly over budget, some recent IT projects have cost, or are still costing, double the original estimate, still don't work and most likely never will.

stormin norman
7th May 2009, 06:57
What's the problem with an ID card if you have nothing to hide ?

I'd love to know how many in my local hospital A and E should not be there,draining the NHS of our hard earned tax revenue.

How many visa over stayers would leave the country because of one- probably thousands.

Capt H Peacock
7th May 2009, 07:46
No Norman. The duty of the Crown is to prove in a court of law that there is a case for you to answer. If you've done nothing wrong, then you've done nothing wrong - that's it.

This Stalinist totalitarian administration has forgotten that in a democracy the State is accountable to the people, not the people to the State.

7th May 2009, 07:47
I've nothing to hide Norman but that surely isn't the point. You point out (quite rightly) that an ID card would prevent abuses of our health system but you can bet your bottom dollar that it never will. The PC brigade will cry foul at the idea that you have to produce an ID card to get treatment, rendering it useless for that purpose.

There are just too many ifs and buts for me. What happens if you lose it, or it's stolen, or someone clones yours and then fits you up for some crime you haven't done? 'Sorry sonny Jim, we found your ID card at the scene, come with us...'

It's terrifying. Every time you move house you'll have to update it, name changes, the lot and you can guarantee it won't be a painless experience. It'll be a quagmire of red tape with absolutely no benefit at all.

Plus the fact that with the government's record overdraft we can't afford it!

7th May 2009, 08:34
Hi Norman,
If you've nothing to hide, you'll be quite happy to post here on a public forum the following information:

Full real name
Bank account details
Current salary
Details of mortgage/ credit card debts
When you last had sex, and with whom (please supply all details of partner(s) as above)

Still got nothing to fear from id cards:ugh:??

7th May 2009, 11:15

Nice one. You have caught on real quick.

reverse unlocked

Not only ID cards my friend.

Take this case. You in a shop, you sneeze or touch a glass for eg. Someone buys that glass. They may not wash it. Say they are murdered in a weeks time. (not unheard of in the UK, let's face it). Forensics find your DNA or finger prints at the seen. Explain that to Plod, who is itching to get a conviction, with a nice big DNA/finger print data base to back it up.

763 jock
7th May 2009, 12:56
The UK is already a Police State.

The Times. (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article6241671.ece)

7th May 2009, 14:54
ID card triallists stay on the register:

Public Service - ID card triallists stay on the register (http://www.publicservice.co.uk/news_story.asp?id=9404)

>>Airside workers who take part in the upcoming ID card trials will have their details stored permanently on the National Identity Register (NIR) whether they wish it or not.

As part of the critical worker identity card scheme (CWIC), all airside workers at Manchester and London City airports will be issued with an identity card. The government has said the scheme will offer "obvious benefits" to both employers and employees at the airport. It will facilitate quicker pre-employment checks and enhance identity management around secure areas in the airport, according to the Identity and Passport Service (IPS).

But it has been revealed in a parliamentary written answer that airside workers at both airports, who will be issued with an ID card automatically, will have no choice over what happens to their personal data once the trial is complete. This also applies if they leave the job during the pilot.<<

This is like keeping your DNA when you are innocent. What do they want all your data for?

7th May 2009, 15:15
To all those who keep wondering why the opposition to ID cards....Get with the programme. It's the Database that's the Danger....Not The Card.....Don't forget 'Contact Point' where all your children's details are held. You have not been asked if that is OK. Anything can be stored on that Database and it need not be true. If your child says something that the teacher interprets wrongly it will be recorded on that database. You will not have general access to the Data held on you (as a parent) or your child. From the age of 12 your child can ban you from all requests for information.
Children will be moved from this Database to the NID database automatically.
From Cradle to Grave your every move will be watched eventually.....
When you die, if your grieving family forget to tell the ID database they will be fined a thousand pounds.......Nice Government eh??


7th May 2009, 15:26
What's the problem with an ID card if you have nothing to hide ?

Mate, you might as well post, "In common with far too many others in this country, I am deficient, if not in intelligence, then at least in imagination" :ugh:

The issues (mainly with the database) have been elucidated time and again, here and elsewhere, usually completely unanswered, and the same old people come back with "If you've got nothing to hide..." ad infinitum.

There is only one side to this particular debate worthy of the description - and it doesn't carry an ID card.

Well done for having the balls on this one, BALPA. Next stop the security farce, please :)

Ten West
7th May 2009, 15:44
We already have far too much state interference and data held on us without volunteering to sign up for more of the same.

Let's hope that the current incumbents of Number 10 find themselves out on their collective arses as soon as possible and that whoever takes over the reins has the sense to scrap this pointless and expensive exercise.

Good on BALPA for fighting it. :ok:

stormin norman
7th May 2009, 15:56

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and they may be swayed by discussion/events.

You probally might want to review one of your previous comments (below) in light of the recent US air incident.

'Cos the likelihood of a successful ditching in serious water is close to zero, particularly with underslung engines

7th May 2009, 16:01
I can't help wondering WHY they chose Manchester for the
first trials of these cards.
Could it be because the population of Manchester are just
going to tell them precisely WHERE to stick their ID cards?
The Mancunians always were a bolshie bunch anyhow.
If they can force them into having to accept the things,
then the rest of us will trail after them like a load of
dumb-arsed sheep... Baaaaa!!!!

7th May 2009, 16:03
I think you'll find every one of the parties except Labour will ditch it fist thing. A hung parliament could result in a short alliance that would also get rid of it probably within the first week of parliament.

Scorched Earth Policy is the only logical explanation for this current administration. Roll on May 2010. You just know they'll cling on to the last second. ..

7th May 2009, 16:54
The only reason I would possibly even consider an ID card, would be that by carrying one, I would be Guaranteed to be able to walk through security without my bag being emptied on the floor or someone feeling my bo***cks again. There's a fat chance of that happening, so No ID for me thanks.

7th May 2009, 17:31

your coments are without foundation and unworthy of this forum, if you want to knock the Mancuians, get your lilly livered arse up there and do it in public.:rolleyes::hmm:

7th May 2009, 18:37
In my book that was a compliment to Mancunians:ok:

7th May 2009, 19:25
There is going to be one hell of a firework display if the government doesn't back down on this. And I think it's fair to say they don't need another set-back at the moment now that Joanna Lumley seems to wield more political clout than Gordy! I also maintain that no one would lose their job if this came to a refusal to work. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

7th May 2009, 19:26
Not a pilot but "good on you" BALPA........!!!

This whole ID scheme just stinks. Why are we letting the politicians take such a hold over us? If you have not committed a crime what business does the government have to hold your DNA?


Bally Heck
7th May 2009, 22:31
There is one really worrying thing about this. Our incumbent government are staring defeat in the face at the next election. Part of the reason is unpopular policies like the ID card (to name one out of quite a lot really).

Now call me silly if you want, but if I wanted to be re-elected, I would within the parameters of common sense be doing what I could for the people without implementing blatantly unpopular policies that cost a fortune. Is that not how you get re-elected?

This government seem to have lost the plot so much that they are making a serious effort NOT to be re-elected.

ID cards, Gurkhas, Pensions, Youtube, Allowances, Spying on citizens, Ministers using allowances for porn, (I have to buy my own!) etc. etc.

Hold up your hand for all the wrong policies and say "I'm wrong on this one"!

Probably wouldn't vote for them anyway. But at least I wouldn't think they are a bunch of lying cheating corrupt.......

7th May 2009, 23:43
I can't help wondering WHY they chose Manchester for the
first trials of these cards.
Could it be because the population of Manchester are just
going to tell them precisely WHERE to stick their ID cards?
The Mancunians always were a bolshie bunch anyhow.
If they can force them into having to accept the things,
then the rest of us will trail after them like a load of
dumb-arsed sheep... Baaaaa!!!!
Manchester was chosen because it is a Labour controlled Council and the Airport is wholly owned by said Council. The Home office told them they were having it end of story and they would have the infrastructure paid for.
It is obvious that any opposition is being stifled. if it had happened at a lot of other airports there would have been ballots for action long before now.
Many are signing up to it at manchester for a 75 bribe to take part in the trial..Problem is once on the trial they will be on the database forever.

8th May 2009, 00:28
What wouldn't surprise me is this. Just before the next general election, snap or otherwise, these dangerous morons declare a one party state.

You may laugh but that has kept Mugabe in power all this time. It could happen in the UK. Another easy way is to declare marshal law at the first excuse, as there will be, in the next few years for any government.

8th May 2009, 06:27
Manchester was 'chosen' because it's inept city council has it's nose so far up the governments backside it cannot see daylight. Manchester city council will do anything to try and please the Labour government, like a pathetic little puppy. It tore the business community apart with it's ridiculous congestion charging scheme that was voted out after they wasted 20 million of council tax payers money on it.
It was just a matter of time before the gimps proudly announced they would trial this BS.

8th May 2009, 07:59
A friend recently noticed what looked like a temporary police speed camera by the side of the road. 200 yards further on, he was waved into a layby by the police for what he was told was just a random check. When he enquired further, he was told that it was under the Terrorism Act and a record of the stop would be retained on a police data base for an unspecified time (the police didn't seem to know how long). When it was pointed out to the police that the occupants of the 10 or so stopped cars all appeared to be non white they claimed that it was purely a coincidence and insisted that it was a definitely a random stop.
So if that is the case, why were the police using a "spotting" camera further up the road? Surely a random stop simply means stepping out into the road and stopping a car at random.:rolleyes:

Even if this behaviour can somehow be justified by the authorities, why should innocent citizens have the details of their "random" stop under the Terrorism Act recorded on a police / govenment data base. How long will it be before this sort of data record is cross referenced with pass passport applications, swapped with other authorirties etc. Having your name innocently connected with the words Terorist Act on a government data base could make life very awkward. We are entering very dangerous territory. Out of the 10 billion other cameras in this country, how many are being used to follow peoople at "random" and how often are car details being matched up with names to record innocent peoples movements on data bases?

What happened to the Back benchers and the opposition who are supposed to keep these lunatics in check? As someone said, it is all being set up very nicely for a one party state. :eek: