Funding Queries (Merged 2009)

[mattyh1986]

Hello, I am currently in the process of applying to train with an FTO. If i am successful I will need to find a way of financing training, I have some personal capitol but not enough to prevent having to borrow money, and still I will need to borrow a substantial amount in the order of approximately £40-50k .

I have thought long and hard and believe that making repayments for 7 years is a small price to pay to access a career I am going to love doing and have always wanted to do. Please don’t questions my motives or box me into the starry eyes dreaming wannabee, I have deliberated long and hard and this is what I want.

I am posting to ask, people who have borrowed money to train, how are they finding managing the repayments. I appreciate the industry is not in a great way at the moment and a lot people are struggling.

Id really appreciate posts from people who have actually borrowed money, for the sake of being to the point and objective, please refrain from posting about your cousins, best friends, brother, I want to hear from people who have borrowed money and are living with it.

Id welcome PM's if people would prefer however I think this is a question a lot of wannabees will have in the back of their mind so any input will be valued. Lets also refrain from debating "is this is a good time to train" that’s a separate matter and I think it would be beneficial to keep to the point of this post.

I'd massively appreciate people feedback. :ok:

King Regards,

Mattyh

[Option C]

Hi mattyh, I graduated from an FTO nearly 7 months ago, now working for a UK airline.
When I was going about the process of getting a loan to cover my training I met a number of bank managers etc to discuss the issue. One of them offered me the loan to cover my training and also the option not to have to start paying back the loan until I had a job. Needless to say I took this offer.
I managed to get recruited by my current employers during my final few months of training, but still had to wait a number of months between graduating from the FTO and starting type rating. Thankfully I didn't have to meet loan repayments during this period due to the above arrangement.
Now that I am in a job, I find I can meet the loan repayments, cover other bills and expenses, and still have money left over at the end of the month.
Shop around if you're looking for a loan and see if you can get a similiar arrangement to what I got. You might accumulate a bit of extra interest on the loan but at least you don't have to start repaying the month after you finish training, gives you a bit fo breathing space to get that job. Might be harder to get in today's economic climate granted.
I would say that if you get an airline job at the end of your training you should be able to meet the loan repayments. However that leads on to another topic entirely!
Good luck.

[Groundloop]

Option C, if you graduated 7 months ago you probably arranged your finance about two years ago. Financial arrangents like that are virtually non-existent now with the current "Credit Crunch".

[mdieker]

I took out a loan for an intergrated course approx 5 years ago. It was with a European bank and I am now with a UK charter airline.

At the moment I see just under 1/3 of my salary after tax go to the bank each month. This is meanly due to the pound/Eur exchange rate. I now have a feeling that I paid to much for this career, especially now the novelty has worn off a bit. But I will leave at that.

I have got a clause in my loan agreement that I can pay off 10% of the origional amount each year towards extra repayment without getting charged.

Also when you do go for a foreign bank, think about possible exchange rate implications.

Make sure that everything agreed will indeed be put in writing. My bank told me that when I would find a job, the colateral (my parents house) would be removed from the contract. I got the job and they refused this!

It is standard now to pay for type rating. Get that as an option in the loan agreement as well. If you already have a loan it is very difficult to borrow more, or with a different provider.

At the time I did not have to much choice. I think it will not be any different now. But don't sign up for a deal which will get you into trouble in the future, especially when it will take a while to get a job.

Best of luck

[TheBeak]

a good post from mdieker, that's spot on.

[Leezyjet]

I have some personal capitol but not enough to prevent having to borrow money, and still I will need to borrow a substantial amount in the order of approximately £40-50k .

How old are you ? and are you intending on going integrated or modular ?, as this could make a substantial difference in how much you would need to borrow depending on how much you have already. By shopping around it is possible to save quite a bit of money here and there. Doing the PPL and hour building overseas for example can save you an awful lot, and buying things like the CRP-5 off ebay, where you can get them for 1/2 the price of certain well know suppliers.

I spread my training out over 4 years, going modular and still being able to work, and took out a £25K unsecured loan that costs me roughly £330/month to pay back over 8 years. The rest I funded from a remortgage and savings. My training all in was in the region of £40-45k from ppl right through to MCC.

You have to take into account how you will manage the repayments if you don't walk into a flying job right away, and also remember that if you do have a large loan to fund each month, this also further restricts your options as to whom you can apply for. You would not be able to manage loan repayments of circ £1k/month on a £19k/year f/o salary whilst still having to pay out living expenses too - unless you still live at home with mummy and daddy or live in a tent.

I now have a feeling that I paid to much for this career, especially now the novelty has worn off a bit.

This is an important quote to consider depending on where you are going to train. The novelty will wear off after a while, and when it does, you want as little of your salary going out on a loan re-payment as poss. Also if this is a lifelong career you are planning, then could you not delay training for a few years so you can work and save up some more money so you don't need to borrow as much ?. There are a lot of people flying aeroplanes who started as teens/20somethings and are bored of it by their 30's but still have loans to pay off. This is something you should also think about too.

:ok:

[tropicalfridge]

You are barking mad if you are thinking of taking out a huge loan for flying training in the current market. Zero chance of a job for at least the next 2 years. Its not what you want to hear I know, but don't do it. Enjoy your PPL flying and wait until things improve.

[Ollie23]

I now have a feeling that I paid to much for this career, especially now the novelty has worn off a bit.


Thats the bit that scares me. 3-4 years into your career and still potentially in debt to the tune of ~30k+ and losing a large chunck of your hard earned pay cheque each month, it must leave you felling bitter.

[42ir]

I wish you luck I passed out with a F-ATPL/IRT/MCC 1350H T/T 2.5 years ago and work for a Company fixing sluice machines.:ugh:
Often I go to work and get called the sluice man,:{ I mutter yes thats me but you can call me Captain!
Sit back work and wait but dont you ever never give up!!!!!!!!!
My CPL instructor worked as a dustman, no joke when he told me I proudley thought well that will not happen to me :mad:
Its too late now you had your chance to spend your fortune to be a Doctor Solicitor etc the strange thing, that I will never understand is you never see them in a job centre:=
This determination could well become an aviation requirement:D
Hope that helps IT WILL COME ONE DAY IF YOU KEEP AT IT!

[A330ETOPS]

I graduated from FTE Jerez last July and i'm finding it really touch paying back the loans. It works out that i pay just £1980 per month when i pool all of my 3 loans together, and have been badly hit like a lot of others, by the poor £/€ rates.

I'm currently working in Dispatch, but unfortunately the pay is :mad: and only covers a small amount of my repayments. Not good at all :=

[EK4457]

Ouch.

Mind boggling figures.

A330ETOPS - how long do you have to pay 2 grand a month for?

I hope it all works out for you.

EK

[BigNumber]

I believe it aposite to review the actual costs of training.

Integrated Training is possibly somewhat more expensive than some posts ( not necessarily this thread ) have suggested!

Factor: 1. Cost of the Course - and extra flying hours possibly?
2. Living Costs for 15 months
3. Lost Earnings in the same period
4. Type Rating Costs / Paying for Line Training

(If you pay for line training then I'd factor a further 6-8 months Lost Earnings and Living Expenses.)

Surely this lot is a commitment of closer to 120K - 150K in 'real terms'? It certainly is not 45K for an integrated student!

Big

[LAX]

a330etops

I admire you for posting and being honest about the reality of your situation. I am sorry to hear it and hope things work out. Sadly you have fallen foul to the spin given out by flight schools and Gordon "the morons" tax and spend polices which have caused the drop in value of sterling.

Let this be a warning to wannabes, many of which seem in denial about the real prospect of leaving flight school with huge debts and no prospect of a decent paying job in the forseeable future - despite advice from those already working in the industry posted all over this website. Such advice seems to be taken as offence and falls on deaf ears.

I would never discourage anyone wanting to train as a commercial pilot, its a great job. I begged, stealed and borrowed to get my first job, but now is not the time to borrow. Save Save Save as much as you can. Go modular, go abroad and do your ppl and hour building as cheap as possible - enjoy the hot weather. Then go to europe, find a decent flight school to do your commercial stuff and leave something in the budget to do a FI course or type rating to land your first job.

And..............theres nothing wrong with the integrated route, if you have the money go for it, just dont spend the banks.

[BigNumber]

Infinitely sensible post LAX, but 'the runaway train' isn't listening.

There remains a huge cultural problem with attitudes to borrowing money; and the harsh responsibilities of then paying your dues. Why save for 5 years working 2 jobs when you can borrow all you need today. Live for now!

'Pay to Fly' schemes feed from this 'easy money' and I for one am glad that the loans are drying up.

[disco87]

The trouble I am having is that I am unsure of when to start training. Ideally i'd like to do it intergrated and start at some point next year, but its difficult to think 2 months down the line rather than a year.

I am lucky as I dont think I will have to take out much of a loan.

[Aerouk]

Sadly thats what happens when we live in a want-want-want society.

People just don't understand what saving is anymore.

[LAX]

disco87

You should start your training whenever you feel its the right time. Timing is everything but we all take are chances:ok:

My advice to you is, and i touched on it earlier, I dont blame anyone for wanting to pay for what they percieve as the best training available but make sure you budget to have cash available to land your first job. Dont blow all your reserves getting your fATPL. Unless things take a major change you will need a FI rating, pay for a type rating or live in some hell hole gettin experience flyin in some hot country etc etc.........THAT my friend is what is going to make a difference in the job market. NOT the school where you got your licence. Good Luck.

Mattyh

I dont want to hijack your thread. To your original question. My advice, I worked like a slave abroad for 6 years and earned enough money to pay for my flight training. Now im getting a RETURN on my INVESTMENT. I never paid a penny of interest to the bank. Borrow whatever you feel comfortable with, but make sure that if you dont get a flying job then you can still earn enough money to make the payments. Dont listen to the spin flying schools throw at you and the banks they are associated with. Remember that interest payments - WILL EAT YOU ALIVE - its money out the window. As prevous posters have indicated, and guys i fly with say, the problems come 3 years down the line. They get fed up with paying 1/3 of their salary to the bank. You will want to buy a car (911), a house (to take advantage of flight attendents after a monday night in chicagos) and savings, pension contributions etc etc. Trust me having put the work in, taken the risk you are going to want a life and rewards for your hard work. Many are struggling and fed up with seeing their renumeration dissoppear in interest.

Rather than ask can you cope with the payment, listen to the spin of the FTO's and banks, please please please seek independant financial advice. Good luck to you:ok:

[Leezyjet]

The trouble I am having is that I am unsure of when to start training. Ideally i'd like to do it intergrated and start at some point next year, but its difficult to think 2 months down the line rather than a year.

Don't worry about it, I didn't start my ppl until 30, and just finished training at 34. There is plenty of time ahead of you, you are only 21 !!!. :eek:

The MCC instructor I had was 71, he didn't even LEARN to fly until he was 41, and still made Captain at Jersey European (or Flybe as they are now known).

You really don't need to rush into it, there will be a job out there somewhere if you are the right person for it even if you don't start training until your 40 !!.

:)

[phillipsmw]

I tried to reduce the size of the loan as much as possible, to make the repayments more managable if I didn't get a job straight away.

My flight training loan was just over £27k, and I had no savings or outside help from the outset. I flew as I earned until reaching PPL/Night/MEP & ATPL theory(Distance learning), whilst in a non-aviation flexible hours job.
The loan then covered a portion of hour building, CPL/IR and MCC.. and all extra living costs. It had a 3 month payment holiday, which ideally coincided with the end of training, and thankfully in my case only a couple of months before getting into the RHS. But I feel that even without the quick job hunt, the lower repayments would have saved my bacon.

Ok, so the training took a few months longer than an integrated trainee, but I'm in a much more comfortable position now because of the lower
outgoings.

I'm not saying that route is the best, just look around at the options and remember its not a race.

And most of all, as said above, do not listen to the crap that comes from the FTO sales dept.
Good luck.

[airbandit]

Be careful with age....There a more chances you will loose your medical when you are 45 than 23 :ok:

[disco87]

I'm not in any rush at all, currently looking to find a job that can tide me over for a while

Although having said that it would be nice to get started but it would be pointless at the moment (unless its modular, then less so).

[A330ETOPS]

Well, my loan with BBVA works out the equiv of £1400 pcm with the current ****e Euro rate, and that's for 8 years, and then i have a career development with Barclays which works out £289 pcm for 3 years, and then 2 others taken out with the halfax for £235 per month for 3 years!

[tropicalfridge]

Not wishing to sound like a complete git, but I think you are mad taking out those kind of loans for any profession, be the market good or bad. Many people in the country don't earn in a month what you'll be paying back, and never will regardless of the economic climate. The banks should have been more responsible and said no to requests for credit, and thats whats caused the whole thing in the first place.

I hope it works out for you.

[EK4457]

A330 ETOPS - thanks for being so candid with the figures.

All too often people post rubbish when it comes to finances, particularly on integrated courses. Silly really becuse you can usually see straight through it. The amount of times I've read 20 year olds saying that they can afford the course is bonkers. HSBC, BBVA and the likes can put together a business plan which paints a rosy path onto a shiny jet. Unfortunatley it is pure fiction. The fact that HSBC have withdrawn the loan (and BBVA want a ridiculous amount of security) shows that even they now think it barmy.

To live and pay back a £2k a month loan you'll need at least £3k a month after deductions. This requires a salary of well over £50k a year! Even if you did land a job with London Airways from day one, you'll not be on that money for many years. For me, even in the 'boom times', it just doesn't add up.

A330- I really wish you the best of luck.

EK

[A330ETOPS]

Haha cheers. Yeh i dont see the point in hiding it, i'd rather people know how much it really is! Let's hope the euro exchange rates pick up a bit.....

[Boing7117]

Sorry to hear about your predicament A330. I'm not sure how much your total debt amounts to but the very best of luck in paying it off!

Back to the original poster - don't rush yourself into flight training! Get yourself plenty of funds under your belt before you embark on your chosen route. Even when you've factored all your expenses / living costs etc - my advice - stick another couple of grand on top of that!

I took out a £50K loan with HSBC. I'd already saved up £15k of my own money to get me through flying school (living / accommodation) and I also had a bit left over to top-up towards the full course of the flying course.

When I originally took out the loan with HSBC (a loan which, I believe is no longer available) the rate was agreed at 2% above the BoE base rate. The loan was calculated at the time (May 2006) at 6.75% which resulted in the following:

Total Borrowed: £50,000

Interest Rate: 6.75%

Total to Pay back: £76,123.98

Interest charges: £26,123.98

First payment would be taken 6 months after completion of flight training

First payment due 15th September 2008 of £658.87

Final payment due 15th September 2019

My first payment in fact was only (only!) £602.87. And those payments have remained the same since.

The current BoE base rate however has helped me out massively. Currently my loan interest is comparable to that of a Student Loan and if I wished to reduce my payment amount and complete my repayments at the same time I could get away with paying around £450.00 a month.

I'm on a TP salary at the moment and managing just about with a £600 / month loan repayment and as well as rent / food / bills. It doesn't leave much money for saving or extravagances (actually it leaves me about £25/week for a few cheeky beers!) - but the main thing is that I'm able to get the loan repayed - and as things stand - I'm paying more than I need to, thus getting the loan paid back quicker.

As things stand, if the BoE base rate / interest loan rate remains the same today for the foreseeable future my final payment date will be September 2017.

If I increased my repayments by a further £100/month (which I could do with a slight pay rise), then the final payment date will be September 2015.

Doing the maths - the current interest rates / repayments will save me (24 months x £600) = £14,400

Increasing my repayments by £100 / month will save me another £14,400.

Of course, it's unlikely the interest rates will remain this low for such a long time (although the next 18/24 months might stay fairly low) - so it's a case of paying off as much as possible for as long as possible.

The flipside of course is that should the interest rates go crazy and if the BoE base rate was to go to say 8%-9% - then my repayments would amount to over £1000/month - and on my current salary I'd be calling in the receivers.

Taking out a loan is risky business - so try to make sure you borrow as little as you have to. Get a job for a few years and save up some cash.

Best of luck.

[Leezyjet]

I've just dug out my loan paperwork.

I took out £25k unsecured in December 2005 at 6.9% APR over 96months.

My repayments without loan protection (got it cheaper elsewhere) are £337.52. Making total repayable £32401.92

So my total spend has been £47K, which is about right. I'd forgotten to include the interest on the loan in my first posting on this subject.

Made me smile actually when I realised I'm almost 1/2 way through the term already and I've only just finished training, so when I do finally land that job, it's going to be a hell of a lot quicker that I start seeing the full benefits of my salary.

If you go modular, that £25k will get you a hell of a long way through the training, and a couple of years of working/saving before hand will easily fund the rest without putting Mummy and Daddies house at risk or leaving yourself broke each month for years when you do get that first job.

:)

[FREQUENTFLYER1234]

I have an idea on how to reduce your loan repayments, if your're thinking about starting training in the near future.

It's simple.

Borrow less.

HOW?

Negotiate a price with the FTO, these large FTO's have loads of aircraft, mechanics, cleaners, admin staff, marketing staff, heating, light, instructors, management, accomodation etc etc that all need paying for each month.

The current bookings are low to no existant, DO NOT let anyone convince you otherwise. They are screaming out for new business and it could be a good opportunity to get the best training possible at the most affordable rates!

How do I know this? Because I have done it.

There are loads of people out there who will be doing the training anyway so you might as well have a go a getting a better price, if you don't ask you don't get!!

[Big_Mach]

I made this spreadsheet (http://www.bigmach.webs.com)when I was considering my ability to repay a loan - it helped me plan how much I could afford to repay over what period of time.

It's very basic but it will give you an indication of how much you will pay over a month, a year and the full term of the loan. It doesn't take account of changes in base rates, exchange rates, early repayments etc but it does compound the interest.

As others have said if you are lucky to get a loan nowadays try and get as much flexibilty as possible. One of my friends had to defer for 6 months but for me it was the ability to repay early and avoid paying even more interest that was the bonus!

Also, to give you some kind of indication of earning, my first year at easyJet my take-home pay was around £2200 per month. Bills, mortgage and general living expenses came to around another £1000, so that left £1200 to pay the loan plus some other costs which I'd put on credit card. Luckily my loan wasn't huge - I would have struggled if I was repaying some of the amounts quoted here.

[x933]

Is there anyone else that's genuinely scared by the ammounts of money being banded around here? Or am I just being a tight northerner?

[no sponsor]

2000 pounds a month in loans for 9+ years is almost unmanageable. My take home in the winter months is about 2400, in the summer, if I'm lucky, I'll get close to 3k a month, but this is subject to a good flying program. I fly a jet for a LCC (based up North!). Friends of mine who fly at Eastern don't earn that sort of income to cover the debt!!

Things will change in your lives, as you get married, have a family etc, and this will put huge pressure on you to just put food on your table. I simply couldn't live with those sorts of debts - I certainly couldn't sleep at night! Yes, you can manage it when you're 21. 31? No way - life would be ****. With a family, impossible, and would probably lead to a family breakup.

Make sure you have another source of income (or your partner does) if you take on those kinds of debts.

[day.nap]

Integrated ATPL + FI course + TR ATR 42/72.

Started payments in 2005.

Remaining debt 92000 Euros to be paid over 12 years at 6,15 % interest rate.

Average monthly amount to be paid back to the bank is 960 Euros, equivalent to almost 1/3 of my month net salary :sad:

[FANS]

A330 - congratulations on your post, which takes guts.

It should be compulsory viewing for all (& their parents) considering an integrated course in the current climate. These are after-all phenomenal amounts, especially in light of industry's current view on FO salaries...

I suspect that you are one of many in this situation, but not all (understandably) want to post their predicament - especially if not in the RHS.

Best of luck.

[veetwo]

I'll throw my hat in the ring...

I trained with FTE in Jerez and took the full loan with BBVA. I was one of the lucky few who secured a jet job straight out of training just before the credit crunch hit.

I take around £2500-3000 per month depending on how much flying I do. My loan repayments are £1200 per month (I am also being screwed by the euro). I'll be repaying at 1,260 euros pcm until 2016 -my loan is around £75k. I also lose £200 to the Student Loans company every month and I owe my parents a small fortune for helping me out over the last couple of years.

When you consider these numbers, consider also that my type rating was completely paid by the company and I have no training bond (in other words my only expenditure was the integrated course itself). My guess is that I was one of the last people to receive this kind of treatment. How on earth people are affording to repay £25k for a type rating as well is mind boggling!!!! Think carefully about the quality of life you want when you start your job - the novelty of flying jets will wear off!!

I should stress that I enjoy my job and look forward to going to work (most days :ok:). However, when I see my friends in other professions earning similar money but without the crippling repayments...it does rather prompt me to question whether I was completely insane!

So much for getting (another) mortgage anytime soon!!!

V2

[MartinCh]

This should be made sticky and titled 'FAQS FOR PARENTS OF TEEN WANNABE JET PILOTS'. That'll do. It'll save WWW some of his hard work.

HSBC pulling out? Not even CTC's or Oxford's (whichever it was) getlemen's deal of footing predicted every fifth default on loan (paid by the int'd premium cost)? /maybe not true, I've read such stuff around on PPRuNe/
BBVA requiring plenty of security? Gosh, so unexpected. Better tell your daddies to offer their house straight away.
Bet they'll chip in to cover the 2k Sterling repayments once they are sobered out to the reality of their darling offspring sitting at home or working deep fryers/tills and 'or else' letters from bank.

EK4457:
Well, I don't see a problem. If a boy's young, he should fetch himself mature businesswoman for wifey/sugarmommy and so much for loan repayments troubles.
Following the motto: Screw whatever needed to avoid being screwed over with funding. 20ish old soon-to-be jet pilot. That'll get some ladies interested. :cool:

FF1234, yeah, get yourself 50% discount on integrated. Haggle so much souk's stall owning carpet sellers would be ashamed of your virtues. Oh so easy.

[flyboy1818]

Some of the figures on here are insane, A330 I actually feel sorry for you, I can't see how you will possibily keep up with loan repayments in the future with needs such as housing and family, personally if I was you I would call in the recievers now and get yourself cleared of bankrupcy whilst you are still relatively young!

I'm lucky, I always knew the dangers of debt, my parents almost lost there house in the early nineties housing crash due to rocketing loan rates. My fathers determination to suceed led him to starting a business and getting out of financial trouble, infact we even got a new house!

I have a student loan from university which is around £10K and has about 5 years left to run if I pay nothing in additon to the mandatory contributions. I decided when I left uni that I did not want to get in much more debt doing my modular training. So far I am just about to finish the ATPL exams, I have a PPL, 60 hours P1 and a night rating, I have no flight training related debts! I left uni two years ago this summer! I estimate I will have to take out a 15K loan which I rekon I can repay in 5 years. That puts me debt free at 28 from both uni and flight training and since my repayments are lower I will have a better life at a younger age. Guys please think it out before taking on crazy levels of debt, yes its hard working 50-60 hours per week and doing all your ATPL's on top of that, but it can be done!

[Leezyjet]

personally if I was you I would call in the recievers now and get yourself cleared of bankrupcy whilst you are still relatively young!

What a completely irresponsible thing to encourage someone to do. It is precisely because of attitudes to lending like this that it is becoming harder and harder for wannabe's to get funding for flying training in the first place and why we are in the middle of a financial crisis !!.

:ugh:

[flyboy1818]

We are in this situation because Goverments around the world deregulated the banking system in the name of globilisation and the like. It is not A330's fought that he is in this situation, he was like most young people naive when he took out these loans, I am just being a realist here! Go and type in take home pay calculator on google and go to the uk section, then figure out how much he would have to earn to afford to repay the loans! I figured that I would give him a fair chance and give him the take home of someone on £22K per year (UK Average wage) on top of his debt repayments, well as a ball mark that comes to about £3470 per month after tax. This means that A330 needs to bag a sweet £60K per year in order to live like the average joe, go figure!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Personal bankruptcy will be the only and best option for a great many wannabes in the coming months and years. I wouldn't hesitate for a nano-second.


WWW

[I like planes & stuf]

Fortunately it is not such a great option as the vast majority of current wannabes will have some form of secured loan for their training. So unless they want to kiss bye bye to Mum & Dad's house along with their financial responsibilities, then they will have to stick it out.

[TheBeak]

How would an airline view bankruptcy though? Would they have a problem if you were bankrupt? Or is it irrelevant? No one should go bankrupt though unless it is beyond the last resort, it sets up a bad mind set of shirking ones responsibilities.

[paulmch]

Hello, I'm Paul, aged 16 from the UK. I can't remember ever wanting to be anything else except an airline pilot. I know it's a cliche, but I want this career anything else in the whole world. Trouble is, I'm not exactly a boy with a rich daddy- the only way I'll ever get through an ATPL is by really, really hard saving. Trouble is, I just can't seem to figure out how it's possible. The question of funding frequently crops up between me and my parents and often results in arguments, so I thought I would ask the people on here that have actually done it and are sitting in that coveted right hand seat- how did you guys manage to find the insane amounts of money that the training providers demand? Did you go to university and did it help or hinder you? Is there any advice you could give to a wet-behind-the-ears teenager with a passion for aviation?

Thanks in advance,

Paul :)

[Shunter]

Don't think of it as just getting an ATPL. Break it down into chunks and make it a little more attainable. Start with working towards a PPL. Don't drop out of school/college/university, get some part-time work, don't blow all your money on getting lashed with your mates every weekend, fly as often as you can afford. If that's 1 lesson a month, so be it.

Have you considered the military option?

[Cirrus_Clouds]

I look forward to the days when airlines start bonding people more.
I would imagine that whilst it's difficult for the airlines in this climate, it's very difficult for those wanting to train, so once the excess of pilots eventually find employment, let's hope that some help will be given to those trainees!

Be wise now, hold tight and you'll come through the other end! ...

I would have thought going bankcrupt (due to flight training) will in some ways show an airline you've had your mind deadset on flying, but also not managing finances adequately. I wouldn't think this would affect the job prospects; they would want someone who's dedicated to their business.

Unfortantely as we all know, most of the training risk rests on the student pilot's shoulders. It would be interesting to see how many airlines are able to prevent going bankcrupt, let alone the student.

[davelongdon]

I am currently considering starting a FlyBe Mentored Scheme and forking out 90k for the course, but once youve passed the course and the loan starts 6 months after.........how on earth do you start paying back the loan on 25k a year?? Any advice anybody or ways to go about it?

Regards

See:
Flybe.com - Pay scales (http://www.flybe.com/vacancies/pilots_payscales.htm)

[Halfwayback]

Please use this thread to ask the questions about funding training and licences

HWB

[PilotPieces]

Well I must say some eye opening figures have arose in this thread. Having related some of these figures to my personal circumstances, I am confronted with this funny, hyphen-like symbol appearing in front of the numbers.

From my perspective (a young, 19 year old, wannabe who knows nothing of financial responsibilites, the aviation industry or life in general), there are several issues with the sums of money involved.

The idea of having to secure a job and income, just to pay off the debt as well as paying for that stuff that keeps your body working and those warm places that keep the water off you at night, is scary. However, I think that people need to consider that everyone’s circumstances are different and loans can be designed around them to help to an extent, in terms of deferred payments or long terms etc.

There is of course the attitude ‘issue’ of the buy now pay later generation, which seems to have caused more problems than it has solved in my opinion. One thing I would like to mention, which goes almost unspoken when considering borrowing for flight training, is living. The hardest part I have found when trying to work out what I can afford, what I cant, how much to save/borrow, length of repayments etc, is that I am 19, single and living at home.

People seem to mention paying for food or what not but what about the rest of it? What if I meet a girl, want to get married, have kids? It’s these things that are making me increasingly wary of getting into a debt situation regardless of the current economic situation or industry downturn.

There is nothing else that I want more than to start training but perhaps I will do myself a big favour by saving rather than borrowing. The aforementioned issues has, for me anyway, brought up a consideration to life in general. If I am in huge debt at the age of 25 and will be for the foreseeable future, will I be able to manage a mortgage, marriage, kids etc. I am not being negative about the job or the training, just a realist in regards to everything else.

I currently plan to keep borrowing to under £15,000. I am setting myself that target and working backwards from there. From that I can work out exactly how much I need to save, and where I need to be in terms of flight training keep that debt right down. That figure has been chosen because I consider it a safe debt, one which I have secured against what I own, in case things go horribly wrong. The beauty of this method is that as circumstances change, I can change the numbers to suit.

Don’t think outside the box, throw the box away.

[L'aviateur]

I think that a good place to be, and something thats within reach of most peoples budget is to gain the PPL and then start the ATPL Theory. They are probably the most time consuming part of the training, but also will probably cost you only around 6000 - 7000 pounds to complete. I say only because saving 500 pounds per month will give you that in 1 year.

Once you've completed the PPL and the ATPL Theory, your probably in a better position to decide what to do. You haven't invested a massive amount of money, you're already a 'Pilot' (albiet a private pilot) and you can see the market.
So from that point, is when you need the money to build another 100 hours, and do the CPL/IR, which you could complete all three in maybe 3-4 months. So your can wait with your shiny ATPL Theory exams completed for a little while until you see the market taking an upturn, save some money, and when you decide 'NOW' you'll take a smaller loan, with proof to the bank that you're capable and 4 months later your employable in hopefully a well judged moment.

I do think that going to Oxford or Jerez or Cabair on an integrated course can you give you an advantage, where those with good results even in the current climate, i.e. the top of the class, still are quickly being given jobs. But it's not a garuantee, and I have a friend who trained at Oxford over 2 years ago and still hasn't made it.

How will the industry fair with the eco fighters? Will the government put the tax on fuel so high as to discourage flying? Will people start turning against aviation because of the Carbon Footprints? So many difficult decisions, which need to be faced. Not always a problem now, but in a few years time you may find yourself in a position with family and have to seriously think, can i really be in an industry where I could be made redundant and not be able to feed my family overnight.

I have a PPL and fly regularly because I love flying, I'm also studying the ATPL's distance learning. I have a good career at the moment and get enough time off that I can fly regularly and fit flying around work (i work as a navigator on cruise ships), which is great. I'd absolutely 100% love to fly airlines, and I think about it a lot, but I also know in the career I have that I'm fairly stable for the short-mid term due to a shortage of people in my position. So realistically, i'm definately going to get a CPL/IR and even do the MCC, because I can afford it with and around work and then at that point decide what to do. If I see at that point I could enjoy 5-10 years flying, I would take the plunge.

Well, thats just my little input...