Life without a Union

[Frogman1484]

Lets for one moment think what life in an airline would be like if we had no union. We actually do not need to guess to see what would happen.

Lets have a comparison between CX and EK over the last few months. Cx with a Union and EK without.

Ok so here at CX things are not perfect, we have to choose between 2 contracts and possibly give a few weeks salary for the choice. The one thing is that we have a choice, it is not imposed on us, as you have no choice. The AOA has done a lot of work in trying to turn a major rushed stuff up , in to something that we can at least choose on. Not to mention the pressure put on management for the SO's and their BBP. What about the LEP's and their victory over the BBP and the housing.

At EK, they have had their overtime threshold moved from 78 hours to 92 hours (stick time), nothing to vote on, no one can say no..no choice. That is a major pay cut for them!!!

In the last few years we have had a strengthening of the "I'll fire you just becuase " even though the victory did not come from the AOA, it came from some sort of Union.

At EK in the last 2 week 7 pilots have been fired, two of them after they submitted an ASR on something they did wrong. The pilots had no Union rep standing next to them to help them. Here at CX as long as you are in the AOA, you will have legal representation. If the EK pilots crashed in Melbourne, would they have ALPA standing next to them 1 hour after the accident?

Our housing policy has improved vastly during the last 5 years, thanks to the hard work of some AOA volunteers. At EK their housing has just been degraded , they apparently not allowed to buy again and the accommodation now only has to have 3 bedrooms not 4 anymore. Did they have anyone to help them protect their housing? No so once again their management just did what suits them without any pressure from a Union.

Rumors at EK also say that their schooling policy is changing, they are not allowed to get more than 5 days off, not allowed to make use of jumpseats, the list goes on and on.

Now I'll ask you, what do you think your working conditions would be like if we did not have a Union to stop the company from behaving like their brothers at EK.

I know that I'll would rather work for an airline that has a union like the AOA rather than one that doen not! :ok:

[FlexibleResponse]

Oh my gosh! I have found a refreshing post on the importance of workers representation without pollution from the poison pill posters of bandaid and lovelypx and associated thugs!

[IFB]

Great post.:ok:

For all the AOA bashers if life here is so bad you could alway try EK!

Any takers??

[Flap10]

Frogman you're comparing apples and oranges to justify your point.

If you cared to look at the big picture, you would realize that Cathay wants a union like the AoA, one that is not too big, but one that is extremely pliable. They would rather have a union like the AoA so they can show the public, shareholders, labor department, etc.. that everything negotiated was negotiated properly and fairly with a proper union, a union that only represents less than 60% of the pilot body. An example of this, which unfortunately has been repeating like a broken record, is when they put out an extremely sh!itty contract. They put this agreement/contract out knowing full well that the AoA will have some objections to the terms of the agreement/contract. They can then make some marginal perceived improvements, which by the way was already factored in even before the contract was published, and then pretend that they worked with the AoA to draft up something better. Hence all the AoA loosers will sit there and think that they in fact achieved something. Truth is though is that you achieved diddly squat.

You want to compare EK and CX, well for starters EK is a state run airline in a place where rules and liability don't mean a thing. In HKG, as weak as the labor laws may be, there is still liability and accountability, this was proven clearly with the recent 49er case and many other cases filed against CX by the FAU.

Furthermore, EK financially is in much, much worse shape than CX (don't believe the propaganda from TT), so they have had to take drastic actions. Up until the start of the financial crisis, EK was trying to improve moral, and stop people from leaving, by improving salary and conditions of service. Now all that is secondary. Rest assured that if CX was in a similar financial position, they wouldn't care one bit what the AoA thought or did.

I've been a big advocate of letting the AoA fold and starting with a fresh union, one that is run by paid professionals and not volunteers. We are big enough now that we should be able to do this, but yet we rely on volunteers that ultimately are being paid by the very people that they are confronting.

[AcarsII]

I have said it before. Life without an union would be much and much worse!!! Some really need a reality check.

What do you think we would have been given without an union?
There is no doubt that we are better off with the AoA.

No airline and union is perfect and it all starts with membership!! The higher the better. Without members we won’t achieve anything! BA, AF and LH have membership ratios of 80%+.

[Frogman1484]

Flap 10 you are right in say most of those things, Ill be the first one to say that the AOA is not perfect. With regards to the way cx treats the contracts and negotiations, do not think that this is unique to CX. I can guarantee you that QF AA BA, thay all do the same thing. No Company wants a strong union, and in fact a super strong union is also bad as it my kill the goose (ask ex Ansett pilots).

You are also correct in saying that we cannot compare the financial, all we can do is compare the way they treat the staff. I can also guarantee you that if they had a proper Union, their management would have to be restrained in their actions. To prove my point, look at SQ (state owned airline) and on how their pilot union has fought back at there at their managements bully tactics wrt unpaid leave.

Working without a Union is not the answer. starting a new one is also not the answer, think of all of the background work that is and has gone on over the years. All of the experience gained. Now think of starting from scratch, we would be exposed to management for too long for that to be an option.
If you do not like the way things are going , the best thing to do is to join and to change it from within.:ok:

[FOCX]

Disagree about Ansett having too strong a union (pilots). I started out with a big wage comparison, suffice to say I'm earning as much now as I would have if Ansett was still going. The APA wasn't overly strong, even with 80% + pilot coverage, it was the industrial system where a company couldn't ride roughshod over its employees. No management could get away with any of the reinterpretation of your contract as happens here. It didn't allow a clause to treminate with no reason after a D + G found no wrong doing as can happen here.

We also had management that was willing to negotiate with the APA. Why? Doesn't matter if it was the industrial system or not, they did. I think the AOA is doing its best given the circumstances, however we need a system or body that can make decisions without fear of retribution that GC can face if management so choose, but one we can still control. Look at the AFAP, that's what you get when you no longer have any real say.

Ansett sank because of 12 years of ****ty management and indifferent ownership not wanting to inject any capital after all they'd sucked out of it as they now wanted out. Simple as that.

[Jed Clampett]

Hey guys stick together! Our union (AIPA) just got all QF pilots a 17% payrise plus an extra 5% for the A380.All backdated to 1 Jan 2007 when our last EBA ran out but with a 90% voting rate and a 96% pass rate amongst eligible voters it just goes to show what can be achieved when you work with the Company. From the outside I don't understand what CX management are trying to do to you and which is the best way to go but if you work together and back up your Union maybe some improved conditions will come your way. All the best from your One World compatriots at QF.

[Sqwak7700]

We at CX are gutless and thats why we are where we are right now

Sad, but so very true. The fact that 20% have already signed on and they don't even have a document to sign!!! :ugh::ugh::ugh:.

Quite literally, just like signing a blank check, except that this is even dumber and and more dangerous. You can cancel checks, good luck canceling a contract you already signed. Not to mention that this signature not only affects your finances, but also your quality of life.

The majority of CX pilots are all too happy to race each other to the bottom. :hmm:

[FlexibleResponse]

Jed Clampett,

Congratulations on the excellent outcome of your Union's negotiation with your company. It just goes to show what a Union can achieve when it has the support of the majority of the workers involved.

Unfortunately, at CX we seem to have a few "loose cannons on deck" who seem to spent most of their time either shooting themselves in the foot or letting loose indiscriminately on all and sundry.

[goathead]

So can someone PLEASE tell me WHY the AOA have endorsed SLS
AND
why they have not come out and said COS08 is just a big rip off ....and you should not sign .......yet ? looking for some direction here.....
still I don't get it
PERHAPS I NEVER WILL....

[Loopdeloop]

Check out the AOA forums under SLS and Cos 08 > General. Both questions answered there.
It would seem that those partaking in the more sensible discussions have migrated!