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con-pilot
5th May 2009, 19:12
The Taliban and their allies are ever so slowly moving toward the Capital, Islamabad. Last reports show nearly 500,000 people fleeing from the Taliban to the south away from the Swat Valley.

As the Pakistan Government has already given away the Swat Valley to the Taliban, will they ever draw a line in the sand and try to stop them from taking over Islamabad?

Should the UN get involved and if so to what extreme?

Least not forget that Pakistan has nuclear weapons.

tony draper
5th May 2009, 19:15
Well they could always use them on the Taliban.:rolleyes:

flash8
5th May 2009, 19:42
And what could the UN do?

To change the Pakistani Political Framework will obviously require changing its Society. An effort that would be considerable in terms of US Investment over a sustained period of time.

I would say that Pakistan is almost a failed state (if not one now), the distinction in semantics purely down to your political viewpoint.

If it weren't for the Nukes the US would be looking at another Afghanistan (and Pakistan is of far more strategic importance).

Far more dangerous than Iraq ever was.

bnt
5th May 2009, 19:42
Given that the Pakistan government has been warning civilians (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jVPbub8VOAC4aCFDofQWcUJods0AD9808DT03) to get out of Taliban-controlled areas, including the Swat Valley, I'm guessing that they do not intend to give up quietly. The NY Times report (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/06/world/asia/06pstan.html?ref=world) is a good summary of the situation today.

frostbite
5th May 2009, 19:57
Would this be the same Pakistan government that complains bitterly whenever the US target a few Taliban in their vicinity?

Rollingthunder
5th May 2009, 20:12
No one really cares.

Just bomb and take out the nuke storage sites.

bnt
5th May 2009, 20:16
Well, why not? They're a government, with ideas about sovereignty and borders, which means that it matters to them who launches attacks on their territory. Maybe it's simply wanting to be seen as an effective government, instead of one that has the USA doing its dirty work for them. In short: Politics. :rolleyes:

quant
5th May 2009, 20:42
No one really cares.

Just bomb and take out the nuke storage sites.

George?....

The Real Slim Shady
5th May 2009, 20:42
Pakistan, partitioned in 1947, has always had difficulties with tribal populations, and the Taleban, as a tribal group, albeit extreme, are no different to the warlords in Baluchistan.

The country is enormous with diverse cultures and political loyalties: notably the dynasty of the Bhutto's has been the most marketable in the west.

Kashmir is still unresolved albeit it has become dormant with the aggression from the Taleban.

The Pakistani's are, like the Turks, the moderate face of Islam and if they need our help we should be there without trying to dominate.

quant
5th May 2009, 20:48
The Pakistani's are, like the Turks, the moderate face of Islam and if they need our help we should be there without trying to dominate.

well said :D

dead_pan
5th May 2009, 21:45
They have a strong and well-equipped army which should, with western support, be able to roll back this latest insurrection. Hopefully those dissident factions within the ISI will see which side their bread is buttered on. Tribal territories will probably remain no-go areas forever.

No doubt India and Iran are looking on with some trepidation (maybe that's why the latter wants to go nuclear?)

Rollingthunder
5th May 2009, 21:54
There is a big problem with letting some (lacking) (lesser) countries have nukes.

quant
6th May 2009, 05:48
There is a big problem with letting some (lacking) (lesser) countries have nukes.You're talking about Israel arn't you? :} Wait with the current financial crisis the west has created i could name the great satan (aka USA), England, Europe etc as being lesser? How do you define lesser?

I don't think the world let Israel, Pakistan, India, North Korea etc have nukes it's just they simply could not do anything about it.

When you think of other countries as lesser that's where the problem starts. Let's unite on one fact and that is we are human beings and we need to work together to solve our problems :cool:

Rollingthunder
6th May 2009, 06:01
ah yes human beings, some responsible, some stupid. like Pakistan, India and ABOVE ALL NORTH KOREA

Get real, there are lesser, stupider countries.

quant
6th May 2009, 06:43
ah yes human beings, some responsible, some stupid. like Pakistan, India and ABOVE ALL NORTH KOREA

Get real, there are lesser, stupider countries.

Your response clearly indicates which type of human being you are :}

Anyhow i've had enough of this thread, i'm sure you will come back with another well thought out opinion.

;)

Blacksheep
6th May 2009, 07:14
Tribal territories will probably remain no-go areas forever.They have been since at least the time of Kublai Khan; Alexandra the Great even.

The Northern part of Pakistan was what the British Empire called the North West Frontier. Britain never managed to control the region and nor has Pakistan. Pakistan national law applies along the surfaced roads and for twenty meters each side. Beyond that or in places where the roads are unpaved, by mutual agreement between the government and the tribal elders, tribal law applies.

Wherever the Taleban have seized control, Talibani interpretation of Sharia Law applies, regardless of the road surface. A major problem with that is, with the Taliban not being learned scholars, their version of the Sharia is a strange deviationist mix of Islamic, tribal and pre-islamic customary law.

GroundedSLF
6th May 2009, 09:05
If Pakistan does fall, what will happen to the Countries below it?
Would they all just move down a bit, or would Pakistan just slip further out into the sea?

dead_pan
6th May 2009, 09:15
Tectonically speaking (first time I've said that in a while), Pakistan is actually be shoved up into the Himlayas by India. S'probably while their getting so uppity - they don't fancy living at 30000 feet.

sisemen
6th May 2009, 09:21
Two options:

1. Split the country into 2 and let the loonies manage their own affairs.

2. Smash the beejesus out of the loonies, sparing none, and seal the border with Afghanistan.

Avitor
6th May 2009, 09:27
ah yes human beings, some responsible, some stupid. like Pakistan, India and ABOVE ALL NORTH KOREA

Get real, there are lesser, stupider countries.

"ABOVE ALL NORTH KOREA"

Can't say more than....... INDEED! They frighten me. If anyone thinks they do not still covet the south, (for a start) they might do well to think again.

arcniz
6th May 2009, 09:44
Blacksheep says:
Britain never managed to control the region and nor has Pakistan. Pakistan national law applies along the surfaced roads and for twenty meters each side. Beyond that or in places where the roads are unpaved, by mutual agreement between the government and the tribal elders, tribal law applies.

As you describe Pakistan, you make it sound a bit like the State of Utah, in the USA. Isolated, mostly under the control of religious splinter sects, not very interested in bringing in foreigners.

To a degree, isolated places may remain as such, and keep their colorful local customs, so long as they are not a threat to the better-armed balance of the world. Waziristan, et al, seem to have arrived at the wrong side of this calculation. They'd best be ducking a lot for the next decade.

World needs Pakistan as a solid presence in its unique nexus place for respect of the past, control of the present, and management for the future. The Paks seem to have got the concept, but they are not up to speed yet at the implementation. Surely billions and more will flow in from a worried world to prop them up, splinted and patched together as they may be, until a more general National order takes effect so that the nation can control its territories effectively.

Someone's gotta do it. Might as well be the folks already there.

Europe spent a thousand years, or more, fighting over the same kinds of territorial issues, as recently as last week, in certain parts. These days, nobody has that much time to spare.

Candy is dandy but nukes are quicker. Choice for them is modern age or stone age, with no discernible middleground inbetween.

SINGAPURCANAC
6th May 2009, 10:14
Having in mind World economic crisis and its consequences I would like to say :Thank you all concerned. Our sales has dropped dramatically since the end of '90,when our employee Mr Slobodan Milosevic aka Balkan' Butcher finished job with ex-YU. During their war he helped us to sell a lot of weapon that rose dramatically our profits. But since than no one has been so stupid to buy our weapon. Related factories are alomost close,workers lose their job ,managers are short of bunuses,owners of such companies fall into depression. It is hard situation and we must find solution.
Such solution have to meet next requirments:
-Country bigger than ex-Yu(i.e. more than 200 000 sqkm)
-Population,As much as big,i.e this time we need at least 150 000 000 of souls. Please do not concetrate only on numbers,refer also to percentage of uneducated people,younger population the best possible generation is between 16-45 years,they believe that they will give their lives for freedom ,ideals and similar stupid things
-Geography-ideal market solution should always be closed to other potential markets in order to expanse our activity in region quickly and efficiently.
Once when you find emergent market next steps must be done:
-Find adequate sales manager for that market with strong political background
-Divide political society
-Give first tranche of weapons for free to all sides
-Every next delivery ,increase price by few percent
- Send UN troops to confirm divide lines,than withdraw troops to give oportunity for others to join game
-Organize couple of peace conferencies without idea to reach peacefull agreement
-Any other measurment that could be appropriate in order to increase sales.
Sincerly yours,

President and CEO of Weapon Association International Society
John Bomba

P.S.
story is purelly based on fiction and any similarity with Pakistan ...
:E

Howard Hughes
6th May 2009, 10:21
George?....
No, it's Dick...:E
Choice for them is modern age or stone age, with no discernible middleground inbetween.
Send em back to the stone age, that's where they (the Taliban not the Pakistanis) want to be...;)

Ken Wells
6th May 2009, 11:24
Send em back to the stone age, that's where they (the Taliban not the Pakistanis) want to be

Where as the other lot want to be in Luton, Leicester and Slough.

Funny old world!

Fliegenmong
6th May 2009, 11:34
HH agree, but how to accept the inevitable, 'collateral' ??

It's a pretty clear case of taking the eye off the ball where it counts and playing in Iraq, when the job should have been finished in Afghanistan...so how now after years of adventurism in Iraq, do we, that is, the 'west' get it over the Taliban, we have made for ourselves millions of enemies through some very ill conceived plans...& we make many more through a ruthless flushing out of Taliban.......Taliban would NOT be the problem it is to the west and to Pakistan, had we....the west concentrated on eliminating them... but rather than finish them off.... we go to Iraq...and allow the Taliban to unify and strengthen.................................................. ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ...Serioulsy are we opposed to these animals or not???? If not, why did we waste time and resources in a country that hates them ie IRAQ, and why do we not eliminate them in Afghanistan when we had the chance to?

Why is Saudia not held to account when all the 9/11 people were Saudias?? Almost 12 months to the day I was at the Boeing field in Seattle (Not Everett,I was there the day before) the one close to town, and Aussie 'Wedgetails' werer awaiting on the flightline, just as Saudia aircraft were?!?!?!?!


Why?? Why are all the 9/11 Nationals allowed access to the technologies that we......as 50 year plus allies of the US denied??

corsair
6th May 2009, 11:45
Why is Saudia not held to account when all the 9/11 people were Saudias?? Sigh:rolleyes: Once and for all the Saudi regime didn't send them. They and their mentor OBL are in effect enemies of the Saudi regime. Thus holding Saudi Arabia to account would be utterly stupid and pointless, not to mention insane considering Mecca is situated there. If you haven't even grasped that detail of the situation by now. What hope is there that you understand anything going on out there.:}

Blacksheep
6th May 2009, 15:16
Why is Saudia not held to account when all the 9/11 people were Saudias?? Well, all the 7/7 and 21/7 perpetrators/participants were British citizens. By your reckoning should we perhaps have a civil war?

Scrubbed
6th May 2009, 16:54
The Pakistani's are, like the Turks, the moderate face of Islam and if they need our help we should be there without trying to dominate.

To which Pakis do you refer? The Taliban are, originally, mostly from Pakistan. That makes them Pakistani.

Unintentionally, you've hit upon an immutable fact: One man's moderate is another man's heretic.

By your reckoning should we perhaps have a civil war?

Why would it be a civil war? The people you're defending do not see themselves as British.


Get real, there are lesser, stupider countries

:p:p:p:ok:

kingzulo
12th Jun 2009, 00:56
Pakistan will be fine ....

It is just a matter of choice ... NWFPs so called talabans are small in numbers; this current wave is finance by india, Afghan and some proxy element of Saudi Money....

now the army has taken the full control of the game and with full commitment they will make sure the movement is crushed....

however it will take many more years to change the mind set of people who were brain washed by ISI, saudi intelligence with the money for GCC for US in USSR -Afghan war... if i try to count they total no of head count it should be in millions .... these people need some thing to do .... if with the help of regional powers and west + US want to get rid of these people they have to spend LOOOOOOOT of $$$$$$ .... other wise it will grow and next target will be Saudi + India

so lets us all help pakistan .... pakis are good people...

chill allll...