Virgin Atlantic Pilot Redundancies

[NOBBY NOBOV]

I truly hope that the rumour is not true, but heard that VS are offering unpaid furlough or compulsory redundancies to pilots ?

Any more info, numbers involved ? First in last out ? Age discrmination minefield ?

Not good for the rest of the industry.

Rgds

NOBBY

[xray one]

Old news....

[NOBBY NOBOV]

x ray one, thank you for your reply.

I had heard that this has happened in the last 3 weeks or so ? As I am unable to find any thread relating specifically to this 'old news' and in particular no mention of unpaid furloughs in VS anywhere on this forum using the search facility, perhaps you would kindly enlighten us all as to what has actually happened at VS ?

Many thanks in advance.

[The Big Easy]

Can anyone from VS confirm the numbers involved? How many pilots do Virgin employ and how many will lose their positions?

TBE.

[airmail]

There is a private VS forum, if you can log in you will possibly find out more (I am not a VS pilot). Having said that, I find it interesting that the main posters are new to PPRune.

[screwballburling]

I find it interesting that any thread containing information on VS possible redundancies, or any other "unsavoury" topic, is removed.

Heavy handed editing, following threats, will be near the truth I suspect.

[NOBBY NOBOV]

airmail, I am unsure what you are attempting to imply by your comment regarding you finding it ''interesting that the main posters are new to PPRune''

I have been registered for a couple of years but am a self confessed lurker. You will see that I registered in 2007 but have minimal posts.

I started the thread with an honest and concerned attempt to ascertain the numbers involved, if indeed true. There would appear to be some very heavy handed moderation of posts regarding certain topics and certain airlines on this forum and hence my reluctance to get involved.

I have noticed that there is normally little moderation when the big carriers are discussed or bashed (BA,CX, EK etc) but things can be very different when the smaller 'niche' popular arlines come in for interrogation.

I do hope that this thread is not magically deleted/moderated away, as it is important for the rest of us to ascertain the honest health of the airline industry out there.

There is nothing sinister in my starting of this post, no glee if the rumours are true, merely considerable concern about the current climate. I wish all concerned the very best.

I have aspirations to step up to the longhaul arena at some stage myself, and am merely attempting to plan ahead as best I can....

Kind Regards

[airmail]

Nobby, I must admit that I didn't look at when you registered only the amount of posts you had made along with others on this thread (and considering when I first registered and the amount of posts I've made, maybe I should have a look in the mirror!!).

My point was that over the years, there has been an increase in the amount of 'one hit posters' coming onto PPRuNe and posting emotive threads (redundancies, companies closing etc). I'm sure that in the couple of years you've been around, you've seen these as well. I accept that you aren't one of them but took your post as either being one of these or from a current VS pilot trying to confirm some information - hence the reference to the private forum.

I have no idea whether they, or others, are looking to make redundancies but given the figures from BAA earlier this week about a 10% reduction in passengers in Q1 09, you have to say that airlines in general are taking a hit and I would be surprised if none of them were looking at costs in great detail.

With regards to you getting into long haul in the future, I have no answers or advice for you save to wish you luck in your aspirations:ok:

Regards

airmail

[NOBBY NOBOV]

airmail, thank you for that. I appreciate your comments wrt one shot posters !

Now then, back to the original point, any information ?

Rgds

[BetpumpS]

There is a private forum and since you are asking it here in public, I am wondering what your reasons are for asking? Are you planning to send your CV in and wondering if it is worth it?

If you are current VS perhaps you have heard a rumour somewhere. If so, show your cards and some ppruners may show theirs

[NOBBY NOBOV]

Now I recall why I was a lurker for 2 years + ...........

BetpumpS if you would kindly reread my post in reply to airmail then I have already 'showed my cards' by explaining that I have aspirations to join a LH company. If the LH players are laying people off then I would like to readjust my game plan and think very hard about the future. If I was current VS then why would I be asking this question on the open forum ???

Sincere apologies, but I am at a loss as to why a straight forward, honest question is being met with such animosity and suspicion ??

[TckVs]

I hear (unconfirmed) 65 - unpaid leave upto two years/ part timers etc. So the number was 10% . So 650 pilots in total at Virgin shaglantic. Good luck to them all.
In the end it will be about 30. Last time they laid off there were down grades etc. and it was LIFO. :sad:

[BetpumpS]

Apologies Nobby,

I didn't notice that sentence. Just like you, I'm trying to plan my future due to the balls up I made. As I understand it, I didn't think any LH airline (except Emirates and other Gulf States) were recruiting at present. Are you looking for DEC? If so, you may have better luck with the middle east.

In all honesty, BA/VS pretty much follow one another and the whole industry as I'm sure you know.

For the past 18 months I have heard rumours and tend to ignore them until something substantial comes out. Take Tckvs reply with a pinch of salt. However as educated guesses go, it seems about right for an airline of this size -10%-during the recession.

[Re-Heat]

I think you will find no concrete information as VAA are a small, tight-knit community who are dealing with these issues in private. As it should be.

I don't expect any "real" VAA crew to have posted anything on this forum on this topic following the earlier thread.

[Khaosai]

Hi,

approx 50 pilots is the figure i have heard. The company are trying hard to avoid any redundancies by implementing other options which will require some flexibility on the part of the other pilots.

After Sept 11th the union ensured in my case that it was (LIFO) last In first out . Lets hope that holds true this time, and is not fleet dependant.

One option rumoured is being able to work half the contracted hours and achieve equal time off, i.e two weeks on/off for slightly less than 400 hrs per annum.

Its a good company, enjoyed my time there, and wish all VS employees the best for the future.

Rgds

[happyjack]

The rumour I heard months ago was up to 60. In the last couple of days I have heard it MAY be more. Perhaps 100 but this is only hearsay.

[fade to grey]

I'll give you a clue Nobby....
If virgin are laying off it doesn't matter if its 50 or 500 pilots I wouldn't bother applying just yet.......:ugh:

[northern boy]

"After Sept 11th the union ensured that it was (LIFO) last In first out "

Oh really, I can think of a few A320 drivers with 2yrs plus in the company after 9/11 who might just take issue with you on that. The union rolled over and let them do it and only later on tried to make amends with respect to the same poor sods coming back. If they want to cut jobs by fleet they will, and there is sod all you or anyone else can or will do about it, especially since LIFO is now pretty much illegal under EU law.

Its a rotten bloody state of affairs and having been there myself I can only offer heartfelt sympathy and hope it doesn't happen again.


Best of luck to all concerned.

[TckVs]

Were you one of the down graded guys (having been a captain or some years) because your number was higher than some new captains? I do think they could do some luck. All the best too all the line guys and girls.:D:ok:

[Centreline747]

Being an ex Virgin employee I hope the damage is limited. Good luck to all concerned. :(

Rgds

CL747

[StudentInDebt]

especially since LIFO is now pretty much illegal under EU law.Sorry to deviate from the main topic but, contrary to airline managers' wet-dreams, it's not unlawful. The relevant legislation in the UK is The Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061031.htm) and if you have a cursory read of Section 32 you will see that an employer may discriminate between workers on the basis of length of service. This section has been successfully used to defend length-of-service as a means of selection for redundancy (Rolls-Royce vs Unite). That said, managers will normally always seek to minimise the cost of redundancy which might be why they seem so keen to tell all-and-sundry that LIFO can't be used anymore...

[Khaosai]

Hi Northern boy,

i have edited my post stating the LIFO specifically affected my case so as to prevent any confusion.

I have no knowledge of the decisions made with the Virgin sun operation.

Rgds.

[Right Way Up]

Khaosai,

It was not restricted to the Virgin Sun operation. Guys with very little seniority were kept on the 747-400 as cover whilst fleet cross trg was carried out. More senior pilots who were still below the chop line but on the wrong fleet were let go straight away. It was seen as a necessity to keep the fleets crewed whilst all this cross training occurred. Things improved a little quicker than thought, whilst these junior guys were still at VA so they were not made redundant. Therefore LIFO was not strictly followed.
BTW all the pilots flying for Virgin Sun were employed by Virgin Atlantic with Virgin seniority numbers.

[Dan Winterland]

LIFO was not observed. Virgin had no redundancy policy at all before 9/11. They naively believed it could never happen to them. So when the 747C and 320 fleets were scrapped overnight, redundancy in fleet was announced to the horror of all affected. It took several rounds of lengthy negotiations between the VACC and the company to work a solution where LIFO would be observed, but consessions had to be made. But by then, lots of people on the Classic, 320 and some on the 340 had already gone. The 744 guys were threatened and told to expect it once Classic guys had been trained to replace them, but the truth was that the company had transferred a lot of the Classic work to the 744 and couldn't afford to lose anyone off that fleet. the 744 guys were told to expect redundacy, then unpaid leave and finally were told their jobs were safe.

No one on the 744 was made redundant. I know. I was the most junior person in VS at 9/11. I would still be there now if I hadn't taken the voluntary redundancy package.

Good luck to all at VS.

[Khaosai]

Hi Right way up,

thanks for the info.

Rgds.

[passy777]

an employer may discriminate between workers on the basis of length of service. This section has been successfully used to defend length-of-service as a means of selection for redundancy (Rolls-Royce vs Unite). .Not quite correct. As I understand in this case, length of service was used in a redundancy selection matrix in conjunction with other selection criteria - not solely LIFO.

In fact it was the union (Unite I think) who insisted that Rolls Royce implemented that criterion as it was the employer who deviated from a collective agreement that included length of service as one of the selection criteria in their redundancy policy.

Length of service was deemed a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim in this case as it was used with other selection criteria.

By implementing LIFO as the only factor in deciding redundancies, this would most likely be judged as indirect age discrimination and would be a risky and potentially expensive strategy to adopt in my opinion.

That said, managers will normally always seek to minimise the cost of redundancy which might be why they seem so keen to tell all-and-sundry that LIFO can't be used anymore..Why would managers seem keen to tell all and sundry that LIFO can't be used anymore? Surely, this method of selection if used as the only selection criteria (if legal) would be the cheapest option to reduce staff as anyone with less than two years service would not be entitled to statutory redundancy payments. Severence pay or lieu of notice would also be negligable.
The biggest concern with redundancies is many employers adopt a redundancy selection matrix that can be 'tailored to fit' to ensure that 'certain personnel' or groups will be targeted.

Whatever selection method is used, myself and Mrs 777 have recently gone through redundancies and I can sympathise with people in a similar situation.

[mikehammer]

That said, managers will normally always seek to minimise the cost of redundancy which might be why they seem so keen to tell all-and-sundry that LIFO can't be used anymore..
Why would managers seem keen to tell all and sundry that LIFO can't be used anymore? Surely, this method of selection if used as the only selection criteria (if legal) would be the cheapest option to reduce staff as anyone with less than two years service would not be entitled to statutory redundancy payments. Severence pay or lieu of notice would also be negligable.
http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=4914221)

I understood the minimal cost to include a cost saving ie to make redundant the more expensive members of staff, generally (very) those who have more years service.

[Super Stall]

I understand a points system was used in the end to select surplus pilots. Length of service made up the vast majority of points.

All very sad.

[carbonfibre]

With recent experience of working on a selection criteria, you cannot just use LIFO, you set up a matrix, usually to score points, then and only after an independant agreement on the points selection do they make a decision, if there are matching points in the "pool" of people then LIFO can be used to make a final decision.

In general there are usually:

- 5 selection criteria
- 2 seperate people grade the same person
- A discussion to ensure the gradings have been done fair and are not wildly apart
- That the criteria is factual where possible, sim assesments, attendance, sickness normally would be used as these can be measured
- a deciding factor should there be a number of people with similar scores, this is where length of service comes in

This is all done with a consultative commitee or a union

This is a standard procedure, very painful to all concerned and those involved

Good luck to all

[Mister Geezer]

There seems to be lots of discussion on the criteria that Virgin will use but more importantly, what is the current state of play regarding redundancies?

I know a couple of people at the bottom of the seniority list and I heard from one of them, (third hand however!) that some crew have been placed onto a shortlist or similar if redundancies take place?

Is this true? Can anyone supply a more accurate summary of what is going on?

[Khaosai]

Hi,

i have heard the critieria might be how long you have worked there, the skills you currently have, and if you have been a bad boy with any current disciplinaries.

The initial rumour of approx 50 redundancies might be wrong, hopefully becoming at the most half of that figure.

Good luck to all involved.

Rgds.

[passy777]

From experience, when mass redundancies are first announced, the end figure has always been less than the required headcount reduction stated at the onset of the procedure.

In effect, this is to give a sympathetic impression of the employer (maybe not ideal terminology considering the context of the topic) and it also allows the union(s) to proclaim that they have done their bit in reducing the amount of redundancies when in reality, the employer has reduced their workforce by the desired amount anyway!

What does seem strange with the VS redundancy situation is that there seems very little media attention - certainly up here in the wilds of Durham, whereas, had it been BA, any employee/employment issues are covered ad nauseam.

Again, from experience, such a situation in a working environment can be distressing, but what really really was the worst experience was the backstabbing and 'tittle tattle' that was going on as everyone was jockeying for position in an attempt to retain their jobs - this made everone suspicious of their colleagues and made for a depressing day 'at the office'.

Good luck to all involved anyway.

[120class]

These figures represent the number of CR:

14 from the 747 and 10 from the A340.

[AFA]

And just to clarify the above post that represents the bottom 24 of the seniority list.

[bobmij]

I've heard that 50 people have been told today that they are to go. Anyone shed any light on this?

[Moe Syzlak]

No, because it is incorrect. Posts 31 and 32 reveal the real situation.

[stansdead]

And a sad day it is too. It needn't have come to this.

[stansdead]

I don't agree that BALPA have questions to answer.

We are BALPA, as I said on our Company Fora, and WE have let ourselves down. The VACC don't seem to agree with that, but what the heck would I know about it?

I, at least did the right thing and did what I said I would do at our BALPA Member meetings in February. i.e. take an option to save someone else's job.

Perhaps the packages weren't good enough, but not enough of our brethren stood up to be counted when needed.

As for coming back? I wouldn't if I were at the bottom of the pile. 15 years plus to Command and all the while looking over your shoulder in more way than one in VS.

In fact, I'm not even sure I'll return. There is life outside Virgin.

[Dan Winterland]

Christ, this sounds familiar. Play the tape back seven and a half years and I'm hearing a familiar story. Except this time, mercifully, the numbers are much less. And BALPA were no use then either.

As for coming back, Stan - you are dead right. There is a lot more to life than VS. The company always believed it's own propoganda and thought that Virgin was such a fun place to work which is why people always work for less than the going rate and no-one will ever want to leave. Except that when they finally escape, they realise that there is far more to life than the VS BS. The company were very suprised in 2002 that when they realised they had made a mistake in making so many redundant and invited people to rejoin, that many didn't want to return.

Leaving VS was my best ever career move.

Good luck to the 21.

[northern boy]

Have to agree with Dan. I went back after 9/11 and whilst I had some fun and gained some experience, it was probably the worst career move I ever made. The seniority list and LIFO was ignored in a mad panic to unload people and then of course strictly applied when we came back 12 months later and subsequently when promotions started again. It was my choice and so my mistake but it goes to show how being in the wrong place at the wrong time can totally screw your prospects for years in this game.

Easy to be wise with hindsight but my advice to those furloughed would be, if you find something else and have any prospect of a command then stick with it and don't make the same horlicks of your career that I did.

Good luck.

[WindSheer]

There seems to be a lot of mention of BALPA.
I worked in aviation for 5 years, am now a train driver. From what I recall BALPA guys are there for exactly the same reason as ASLEF guys......they do the union thing purely to get X number of days off 'work' every month.

That is the only reason ASLEF exists!!

[8846]

Well..

You can't expect to post something like that and not get a reaction - perhaps that's what you wanted - perhaps your experience with BALPA was not a good one..

However - the guys who hold positions in BALPA in my company are absolutely fantastic. The amount of work they get through on our behalf beggars belief - and they are always at it, whether on BALPA 'days off' or taking/making phone calls down route when most people just head for the bar.

This is a bit of thread creep away from the main subject but I couldn't let a comment like that pass.

And I'm sorry that your experience of BALPA has been negative, I really am, but it's not always like that.

[nilcostoptionmyass]

40% , thats about right, so when BA announced a massive loss and VS a few days later announced , 'arn't we great, we made a profit', no mention in the press of pilots being chopped.

Funny that.....is that daft irishman running VS these days ?

[TckVs]

I've heard that a second round of layoffs are coming. Third if you include the IFBTs.
Maybe that just means that profits( aherm) wasn't as good as they said?
The bugeted losses for 6 months went in just two.

Good luck to all the line crews maybe even some of the trainers.

[FRying]

And Virgin has just ordered a number of A330s...Go get it.

[Iver]

The A330 orders are good news for the pilots - especially the furloughed pilots so long as these aircraft don't represent exact replacements of 744s or older A340s. Let's hope this means some incremental growth before the 787s arrive (let's hope they don't cancel those delayed orders).

[fmgc]

I think that some people are under the impression that BALPA can click their fingers and stop Companies do what they want to do in their tracks!!

BALPA isn't perfect by any means but to accuse reps of doing it for more days off is ridiculous, I was a rep (not VS) and not only did it consume far more time than just the allocated days, it was stressful, and lost me shed loads of money by not flying so much.

[bjet]

One question!

How much can Singapore airline losses be related to Virgin losses/profits?
Saying something "largely related" has no meaning what so ever when to explain linkage between those carriers. Is this due to Code sharing, price of shares that have plummeted (losses which is by law put in the books at the end of the year) or other factors in shared business interest?

I ask this question because it I am unfamiliar with the linkage between those carriers to come to more accurate conclusion on the stability of Virgin as a company. Hearsay is not enough to build upon, just adds more confusion to information. Btw I am not an employee for neither of those carriers.

[Orangewing]

Singapore airlines owns 49% of Virgin, thats your link.

[NOBBY NOBOV]

I seem to recall in the not too distant past that Branson was trumpeting '4 engines 4 longhaul' all over his aircraft - I understand that he has now 'ordered' A330s ? Rather an about face ?

His recent PR stunts against BA seem to be the actions of a desperate man - pushing the line that he is doing well but allegedly loking at a serious second bout of redundancies coupled to ''Virgin accounting territory''.

[TckVs]

Did you really just put Branson and VAT in the same sentence? But that was a long time ago.:=

:D

[Iver]

And where would they go Willie in this economy? I guess Qatar is hiring.

[stormin norman]

I'm appalled that anyone could think that Virgin could do anything underhand and be accused
of manipulating the press to gain publicity.

[rubik101]

Many years ago, the company I worked for had a surplus of pilots but had the good sense to see that it might just be a short term problem. Their suggestion to us was to job share. Two pilots agreed to work alternate months.
The up side was that we kept our jobs, albeit on a reduced basic salary. The upside for the company was that two pilots working to the limits of FDT produced 1200 hours a year, rather than the then limit of 1000. Those 200 hours more than made up for the extra simulator ride. Indeed, when the good times came around a year or so later, we, and the company, agreed to stay working part time as it suited us all admirably.
Some of you senior pilots in VA might like to consider this. The economics of such a deal really do make it viable for all concerned.

My months off were spent running a sail charter boat in the Med.
Nice work if you can get it!

[wobble2plank]

I seem to recall in the not too distant past that Branson was trumpeting '4 engines 4 longhaul' all over his aircraft - I understand that he has now 'ordered' A330s ? Rather an about face ?

Perhaps BA could surreptitiously go round at night and cover over the '4 engines 4 long haul' and repaint them with '2'll do'?

:}

[robberdog]

Hey wobble,

Does BA still paint multi-coloured African art on its aircraft tailplanes?

Just haven't see any for a while...ho hum ;)

[srjumbo]

Hey wobble2wank
The 4 engines 4 long haul hasn't been on for a considerable amount of time. Quite a while since you've been to an airport eh?

[Dan Winterland]

It reminds me of one VS pilots repost at hearing it. To "Four engimes for long haul" he replied "Two pilots, too tired". perhaps this was the reason it was deleted!

[rubik101]

Is this thread about redundacies or the merits of 4 engines over 2 for long haul? Start a new thread if you want to discuss such things, in Tech Log. Peasants.

[NOBBY NOBOV]

Just heard that nother 63 pilots to be go at VS ?

Good luck to all, not happy days at all.

[Duff beer]

Just heard that nother 63 pilots to be go at VS ?

Where did you hear that?

[Dan Winterland]

"Is this thread about redundacies or the merits of 4 engines over 2 for long haul? Start a new thread if you want to discuss such things, in Tech Log. Peasants."

It's as much about VS BS as redundancies or numbers of engines. Troll.



If this is true, it's dreadful. So soon after the announcement of the 330 order. Which of course are going to replace the 744s or 787 orders - or both!

[screwballburling]

An airline that has announced profits, puts off 15 to 20 % of it's crews.

Something wrong somewhere.

[stormin norman]

63 more to go. I'm assuming these new aircraft on order fly themselves then ?

[Clandestino]

http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2008/09/Capitalism%20Stupid.jpg

[stansdead]

There has certainly NOT been mention of 63 more to go, however there is most definitely anxiety amongst the troops on various private forums.

The original number of redundees was 50, which was mitigated one way or another to, I believe, 26.

The number 63 seems rather high therefore.

But make no mistake, Virgin won't be bothered about placing an order for 2011 and laying off pilots till then.

If BA is so far in the dwang, then VS could well be too. We just may never know, as VS are able to hide problems more efficiently due to being privately owned.

Glad I got out. And that is the truth.

[Bruce Wayne]

An airline that has announced profits, puts off 15 to 20 % of it's crews.

Something wrong somewhere.

Transcript - Singapore Airlines Financial Results Briefing
Full-Year Ended 31 March 2009

Mr Kong: Final question from me. Could you provide some colour on, in the fourth quarter the associate losses of $106 million?

Mr Chan: Yes, in the fourth quarter the share of losses of the associated companies is about a hundred over million dollars. That’s largely coming out of our investment in Virgin Atlantic. As you know Virgin Atlantic is a company that is incorporated in the UK. So as a result the financial statements are actually prepared under UK GAAP because they are a private company. So they actually do not apply international FRSs. So we had to make some adjustments in relation to their hedges and because they do use proxy hedges there are some adjustments for ineffectiveness of hedge. So that’s one of the main reasons for the weaker performance. But if you look at the full year you would notice that the share of associates is actually quite flat. So it’s really share of profits in the early part of the year returning back in the fourth quarter. For the full year it’s about flat.

Mr Chew: I should emphasise that point that if you, what Hon Chew said about Virgin Atlantic, in the first half the share of profits from associates, a big part of it was attributable to Virgin Atlantic as well. So it was, to blame Virgin Atlantic for the second half’s dip in associated companies’ profits would not give you the complete picture.In fact, if we take the two halves then Virgin Atlantic contributed $0.4 million.

[Tags]

Just heard that nother 63 pilots to be go at VS ?

Good luck to all, not happy days at all.

Absolute rubbish.
Care to elaborate on your source - doubt it!

[The Big Easy]

A bit like 'Nobby Nobov' I know nothing about VS. The '63' figure he has quoted would seem to be close to the number of training positions that VS has under review. None of which, will be made redundant!
So go on Nobby......the source is?

TBE.

[NOBBY NOBOV]

Guys, please do not shoot the messenger.

This figure came from an extremely reliable internal VS source. This is round 2.

I am afraid that despite the Branson PR machine going into overdrive recently, the company (like all airlines) is in serious difficulties. His recent attacks on BA are an obvious effort to try and drive BA under as he realises that time is quickly running out. (This from a VS pilot).

I am afraid that a niche carrier like VS (he has 38 aircraft - tiny !) needs to find a major player to consolidate with, they are just not big enough to survive on their own in the current climate.

Good luck to all.

[thrashley]

So the firm order of 10 shiney new Airbus in 2 years is all a PR stunt is it Nobby?

:rolleyes:

[Carnage Matey!]

How are those shiny new A380s he ordered coming along? What, delayed again I hear you say? Branson has form for splashing big orders then letting them quietly slip.

[tin tin]

The fact is all airlines are seeing reduced loads and reduced profit on the seats that are sold (Yield). Therefore it makes sense to reduce or stop flying those routes that are not contributing to the bottom line. That will mean you have an excess of crew/staff/equipment that needs to be made redundant. If laying off a large number of crew etc, is what they are doing, then it sound like prudent management to protect what is still a successful business. Yes there may be smoke and mirrors in the Virgin accounts, but if you look at the amount of cash they have in the bank, check the load factors they are maintaining and then consider the steps they are taking to protect themselves, you will see that they can weather this storm and emerge fitting fit on the other side. Who else will still be afloat when the storm has passed. Take a look at who's loads are falling and who's are holding up. (The punters are already running to the safe bet!) It paints a picture!

[A319-100]

"but if you look at the amount of cash they have in the bank"

How much then?

[Carnage Matey!]

"check the load factors they are maintaining"

It's not about load, it's about yield. And who is the safe bet the punters are running too, because every BA flight I've been flying has been full?

[sweetie76]

Flexibility and adaptability are the main qualities needed in these times.

Look at another very well-known carrier. They are reconfiguring some airframes to reduce the number of business class seats in order to increase overall yield by attracting highr numbers.

But you need to have the flexibility and foresight (plus a little luck).

[springbok449]

One of the problems that VS has is that its too big to be small and too small to be big...
Difficult times ahead I think.

Good luck to all.

[hollingworthp]

63 might not be so bad - I wonder how long before someone cut & pastes today's story ...

[Fly747]

OK then, I'll do it.
BBC NEWS | Business | Jobs risk as Virgin cuts flights (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8129394.stm)

[sevenforeseven]

Carnagematey, this is for you. why dont you spend most of your time dishing out the meals and off this forum No wonder BA are in the dumps. Ha Ha Ha :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[The Big Easy]

Nobby................Respect!

[Carnage Matey!]

Been on the crystal meth again sevenforeseven?

[Dan Air 87]

I don't understand the latest news from the bunker. VS order some A330's, smatter their staff with bonuses and then start to make staff jobless. I am only a poor SLF who puts his bum on a seat (J class naturally) but if there is some logic to it....

[ETOPS]

The letter to Cabin Crew states 406 redundancies so the "63" flight crew may have some credance. The route cutbacks announced now will need fewer crew/aircraft...........

[Count von Altibar]

I too have heard there's going to be up to 4 airframes grounded and a significant number of pilots made redundant as a result. My source got it from a management pilot there. Things just don't seem to add up at Virgin considering the recent quotes in the press from SRB.

[NOBBY NOBOV]

I am afraid that the news is getting worse.

Latest figures that I have (from the same reliable source as before) are that there will be a further 105 compulsory redundancies PLUS the 21 already announced. That is approx 20% of the pilots out of the door, shortly after announcing market leading 'profits', 'gaining market share' and a new 'order' for 10 (?) x A330s ????

VS are in a mess and RB's efforts to mask their problems by having a go at BA recently are now coming home to roost. Very sad times for all at VS. Good luck to all.

[crewrest]

Nobov, I'm sure your management pilot source is delighted that you are spouting company confidential info on PPRuNe.

[stormin norman]

RBs empire could be in deep trouble financially.The markets he's in, Finance,Airline ,Railways and Media have all taken a big hit in this recession-has he stretched himself to far ?

[NOBBY NOBOV]

'crewrest'

Where did I say that it was a 'management pilot source' ?? I will not reveal my sources, but this one is again impeccable, but not VS management.

It is hardly 'spouting company confidential' - have you seen Sky and BBC news recently ?!!

Whilst it is very sad news for all concerned, Branson has tried very hard to pull the wool over the eyes of the travelling public about the state of his company. The question remains, if VS are so 'well placed' as he recently claimed, then why make 600 staff redundant including approx 20% of your pilots ?

There has always been a tendency on this forum for some people to knock the likes of BA/CX/AA etc and 'protect' the smaller niche carriers like VS. In addition I have witnessed some very selective moderating with regard to any story about VS that does not fit the image.

I am afraid that times are changing, VERY rapidly, and no amount of spin will pull RB out of this PR hole that he has dug for himself. As I said earlier, good luck to all. Very difficult times.

[brakedwell]

Financial Times 2nd July 2009

Virgin Atlantic to cut 600 jobs
By Kevin Done
Published: July 2 2009 00:33 | Last updated: July 2 2009 00:33
Virgin Atlantic, the UK long-haul airline controlled by Sir Richard Branson, is cutting capacity by 7 per cent in the coming winter season and is planning to axe about 600 jobs, or close to 8 per cent of the workforce.

Steve Ridgway, chief executive, said: “The outlook for the industry is as bleak as ever and all airlines are having to shrink their businesses. The fittest will survive and be in a stronger position when the economy grows.”

He said the group would seek to minimise the number of compulsory redundancies.

The latest contraction in the operations follows the elimination of another 600 jobs announced last February together with a pay freeze from last March.

In total, Virgin Atlantic, which is 49 per cent owned by Singapore Airlines, has announced plans to reduce its previous workforce of 8,400 by more than 14 per cent.

The airline said it was planning to suspend its daily London Heathrow/Chicago service in the coming five-month winter season from the end of October and would reduce its twice-daily Heathrow/Hong Kong service to a single daily flight.

The UK carrier has previously indicated its financial performance was expected to deteriorate significantly in the current financial year to the end of February 2010.

[Maxfli]

From ATW Daily News...........

Thursday July 2, 2009
Virgin Atlantic Airways CEO Steve Ridgway said yesterday that the carrier will cut its winter capacity by 7% year-over-year, putting up to 600 jobs in jeopardy. "The outlook for the industry is as bleak as ever and all airlines are having to shrink their businesses," he said, according to press reports. "We will look to minimize the number of compulsory redundancies and ensure we treat our staff as fairly as possible." VS's London Heathrow-Chicago O'Hare service will be suspended, while flights to Hong Kong will be halved

[DartHerald]

There are some people on this thread who do not seem to have much grasp of the real world of business.

Yes VS did make a profit and has rewarded its' staff accordingly which is a very rare situation in today's world.

However those conditions which enabled it to make a profit do not exist now and therefore like the majority of airlines today, it is having to cut back accordingly. Very sad for those affected but is it better to keep them all on - make bigger losses with bigger cuts down the line?

The acquisition of new aircraft is a completely seperate issue but clearly in their business case it makes sense to them and will hopefully be to the benefit of the company and the staff further down the line.

[sweetie76]

I suspect another LHR carrier recently acquired may be in for a dose of judicious restructuring.

[DartHerald]

WidebodyWillie

Whilst I really do understand your point - yes it is right. At that time those bonusses were justified and whilst the state of the company has changed - those people are still entitled to that money.

Trust me I have been on the wrong end of such circumstances but it is fair.

[Dan Air 87]

I would like to wish all VS flight crew the best in these turbulent times.

Like a previous post here I think that the morals in VS are somewhat disappointing. For a Company that prides itself on its staff (see their web site for an example) to give staff a bonus followed by a P45 is very odd and is a strange way to treat your staff.

[RoyHudd]

layoffs=VS SOP.

And when P45 is received, no RSVP. RB is an unwholesome character, despite the PR.

[Right Way Up]

Have to agree with the previous posters- SRB is a fair weather Boss. Where was he after Sept 11? I'm glad I ignored the spin & left. As for SR words fail me!! Ripped us off over those seats & kept his job - Teflon Tony (as in BLIAR) would have been proud!

More importantly for all those great colleagues I left behind :ok: all the best for the future.

[Count von Altibar]

About a week ago SRB was talking of new routes to Vancouver etc., making a possible takeover bid of BA and now this! It really beggars belief the amount of spin that comes out of his mouth. Hopefully the company will handle the process with respect toward the employees in the firing line.

[brakedwell]

About a week ago SRB was talking of new routes to Vancouver etc., making a possible takeover bid of BA and now this! It really beggars belief the amount of spin that comes out of his mouth.

I don't think spin is the right word!

[Bart]

Is this the armchair airline executives forum? Most of the crap being posted on here should be in Airlines, Airports & Routes forum or better still, Spotters Balcony! :rolleyes:

Apart from those pilots who are employed by or have been employed by Virgin, the rest of the comments on here look like a bunch of know it all enthusiasts who, apart from reading Airliners Monthly, have about as much knowledge of what Virgin pilots T's & C's are about as a pimple on your bum knows about brain surgery. :ugh:

Whilst Virgin directors and senior managers may be stupid enough to not realise that their bonuses will affect morale amongst their workforce, even though they are bonuses earned when times were good, the resulting announcement of more redundancies is a blow to an already demoralised workforce. The fact that the first stab they took at projecting their losses for this downturn have proven to be so very wrong is only an indictment of their poor judgement.

The announcement yesterday should not come as a huge surprise but from the pilots perspective, it just reflects the short sightedness of some of the decisions being made. The festering problem that is being created is that when the business starts to pick up, the same management will be caught on the wrong foot as expansion requires more pilots than are available, either due to not enough wanting to come back or worse still, not enough trainers to train the backlog. This in turn will have a disrespected management trying to get demoralised pilots to work outside of their terms and conditions which will create friction.

The easy answer? There isn't one and I'm not paid enough to make those decisions. Amongst the pilot workforce there is the belief that rather than laying off so many pilots they should be looking at offering unpaid leave and/or less hours a year. The overheads will still be there but the upside is that when the recovery kicks in there will be enough trained bodies in place to keep the show running smoothly.

As a pilot, I and my colleagues have to keep all options open. We would like to preserve the jobs of those near the end of the seniority list, even if it means some sacrifice. Our senior management and above don't seem to grasp the concept of keeping morale as it is not a tangible asset. PR is one thing but celebrating and partying just before announcing yet more redundancies because they got the numbers wrong in the first place is tantamount to irresponsibility.

The armchair experts should bugger off to their respective forums on here and leave us pilots to discuss our T's & C's. They can read our comments but please refrain from posting your simplistic and ignorance based views here. Just because have flown with us once or twice or your mate is a frequent flyer with Virgin doesn't confer on you the right turn this post into a spotters free for all.

Mods, can we please make sure that this isn't turned into another of those interminably boring posts that the armchair enthusiasts have a habit of ruining? :mad:

[NOBBY NOBOV]

RB's spin is really starting to bite him on the backside....

From Gerson Lehrman Group Website Financial Comment :

''So what’s gone wrong in just a few weeks after so brazenly boasting how efficient it was in contrast to rival British Airways?

The simple answer is that Virgin is waking up to the realities of the marketplace and without any major airline alliance that wants this subsidised carrier amongst their ranks, the battle which Branson’s baby faces is more than just an uphill one.”

“Throw in the worse-than-expected forward bookings at Virgin (down 30% on last year compared to BA 17% apparently) and quickly you see that its reliance on premium customers is far greater than that of British Airways, particularly with its smaller network that has less room to offset big declines in demand for that class of travel.''

''Little wonder then that BMI and Lufthansa are equally keeping themselves at arms length from Virgins ailing overtures. While all of this goes on, the Virgin PR machine will do little to console the staff it has to cull for its mismanaged operations.''

Unhappy times and very fair comments Bart - Good Luck to all.

[Fly747]

Yes, the executives may have been due their bonuses and rises but it really doesn't look good at all does it? In the long run it would surely pay then to forgo these payments and avoid such headlines as this:
As Virgin sheds jobs, chiefs enjoy 40% pay rises - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6626810.ece)
That is what leadership is all about.

[stansdead]

Fly747,

Virgin rebutted that story today. Do you mean there could be truth in it?

Heaven forfend....

[Chippybus]

BART
One of the best posts I have read on here :ok:Respect:ok:

[Count von Altibar]

Analysis

So what’s gone wrong in just a few weeks after so brazenly boasting how efficient it was in contrast to rival British Airways?

The simple answer is that Virgin is waking up to the realities of the marketplace and without any major airline alliance that wants this subsidised carrier amongst their ranks, the battle which Branson’s baby faces is more than just an uphill one.

For over six months, rival British Airways has seen plummeting premium passenger figures, particularly in Asia where Virgin is slashing flights to Hong Kong by 50%. While Virgin has moved to take out system capacity for its winter schedule, however, by not doing so for this summer means it still has airplanes to fly relying on low yield fares as oil prices continue to climb. Compounding Virgin’s cost base woes is the highly inefficient A340-300/-600 fleet, which guzzle as much fuel as oil prices rise – no wonder that Qatar Airways’ CEO Akbar Al-Baker said he wanted to “throw them away”. Virgin’s recent A330 order is evidence of that move, albeit several years too late.

Throw in the worse-than-expected forward bookings at Virgin and quickly you see that its reliance on premium customers is far greater than that of British Airways, particularly with its smaller network that has less room to offset big declines in demand for that class of travel. It already got rid of the manicure services to cut costs – a gimmick 10 years ago Virgin would have never considered abandoning.

British Airways by no means is not fairing any better, however its forward bookings have remained fairly stable and premium demand on its key North Atlantic routes have stabilised. Of course, the ongoing talks at British Airways and unions could undermine its business model but that’s another discussion altogether.

Singapore Airlines’ parent Temasek struggling to even give away the 49% holding it has in Virgin Atlantic - the Singaporean carrier has oft stated desire to fly to North America from a European hub and it may as well consider buying out the other half, keep the brand and operate those routes via proxy.

That of course is the long term outlook. But if people look at how British Airways is coping and start to get “nervy”, then the real clatter of worry is in the veil of PR gambling being removed to display the ineptness with which Virgin Atlantic is run. There’s a reason why the Star, SkyTeam and Oneworld alliances do not entertain this “look at me!” airline – it simply has nothing on offer for them.

Little wonder then that BMI and Lufthansa are equally keeping themselves at arms length from Virgins ailing overtures.

While all of this goes on, the Virgin PR machine will do little to console the staff it has to cull for its mismanaged operations.
Analyses are solely the work of the authors and have not been edited or endorsed by GLG.

[Count von Altibar]

The above article seems to suggest the fuel guzzling a340 fleet is a big part of Virgin's woes but I wreckon the real reason for the further jobs cull is the forward bookings. I guess if the world economy picks up quickly that could follow suit.

[crewrest]

or the threat of a BA strike...

[Super Stall]

Even at full steam ahead, strike would be mid Sept at the earliest.

[NOBBY NOBOV]

Not sure the threat of a BA strike will offer much help according to the huge VS drop in forward bookings reported (30%+ drop last month on premium apparently) The benefit will be very short lived and will not avert the current serious long term problems of none of the alliances wanting to get VS on board.

My sources (very reliable as you have seen in previous posts) have no doubt that BA will hit the nuclear option with cabin crew this time. All of July talking to ACAS, followed by 90 day notice of imposition of new contracts. By the time a legal ballot is called and actioned, earliest dates will be Sep/Oct - summer season over. They already have ring fenced funds in place to take on the cabin crew union and break them into tiny pieces this time. Watch this space.

VS has huge exposure to the N. Atlantic and little else. They offer a tiny amount of routes elsewhere and are unable to redirect their efforts accordingly. BA have a large Worldwide route structure which, apart from the N. Arlantic, is still apparently holding up pretty well. VS need some new non Atlantic routes, and quickly.

Whilst not directly related to the current redundancies, the press are starting to show serious interest in the previously squeaky clean image:

Daily Mail 7/7/09

Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Megastores accumulated losses of more than £300million before they were sold off two years ago.

Accounts filed at Companies House show that Virgin Holdings, which owns a number of Branson's businesses, swung into the red in the year that ended in March 2008.

Profits of £151.7million turned into losses of £227.3million that year after a one-off operating loss of £324.3million.

That came after the 125 Virgin Megastores were sold to Zavvi, a rival music retailer, which went into administration last year with debts of more than £100million.

A Virgin spokesman said that Virgin Holdings' losses were mainly due to accumulated losses at Megastores over many years, which were written off once the business was sold.

The accounts also reveal that Virgin paid Zavvi £61million to break a licensing agreement for the use of the Virgin brand.

The firm also wrote off another £21million when it sold Virgin Vie, the cosmetics business, to its management. This also led to a payment - of £8.8million - to remove the Virgin brand.

[air2bob]

It may be Sept at the earliest for a possible BA strike but the damage is being done on This Morning Simon Calder was warning of possible disruption which cant be doing BA any favours and in turn can only help VS in the short term.

[Tercarley]

Yes, look what happened when a threatened strike by Monarch was in the press, lots of cancellations by holidaymakers. VS must be really pleased that they have announced that they will take industrial action. Joe Public doesnt know whether its going to be next week or in Sept.

[brit bus driver]

Well, it (the general public) does. Front page of the Telegraph today (well, yesterday) mentioned August at the earliest. Besides, we all know how reliable Simon Calder is when it comes to facts about the airline industry (still looking for that £100k average salary....)

[stormin norman]

There will be no strike at BA as it will be the end of UNITE as a union (Unemployed do not pay union dues !).

They know that and so does the BA board.

[NOBBY NOBOV]

I see Branson has recently announced plans to seek approval from the DoT for anti trust immunity with Delta on routes between the US and Oz ??

Hang on a minute, wasn't it RB that claimed that an AA/BA tie up should be turned down by the DoT as it would be bad for competition and would damage consumers' interests !!!

I pity the VS workforce having to cope with such erratic behaviour.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Roy says

layoffs=VS SOP.

And when P45 is received, no RSVP. RB is an unwholesome character, despite the PR.

How right you are! Having been duped by the virgin spin of "come and join the virgin family" and lived the entire duration of Virgin Express Ireland, I know exactly how dysfunctional that family is!!!!

We were ceremoniously dumped without ANY assistance in arranging interviews with VA who were hiring at the time. All we asked RB for was a feed into an interview and he couldn't give a stuff.

This guys a knob and doesn't belong anywhere near the public.

Pulling the wool over your eyes - hopefully from the fast unravelling cardigan.......

Any guy who makes his seventy year old mother carry his bags clearly has no concept of respect. :=

I wish you all luck guys. IMHO you will need it!

[robberdog]

Good to see you're not still bitter about it though.

:rolleyes:

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Bitter? Not exactly. I tend to have a long memory with these things though. When you and your partner both lose your livelihood it tends to leave scars. Thats all part of life's education process and should stop us making the same mistake again. Thanx for your sympathy though! :yuk:

[Hussar 54]

Anyone have any news whether our own Danny F has survived the troubles at VS ??

No reason other than we all owe him an awful lot of our thanks for pprune and I understand he gave up a reasonably secure job to get his bum into the RHS of a 747....

Fingers crossed....

[stansdead]

Danny was senior enough to never be threatened by the recent troubles.

[Baron buzz]

Do you mind me asking guys how many pilots actually were forced out of Virgin this year during these troubling times?

[EGCC4284]

and is it true what I heard 2 weeks ago that some of those who were working their notice had their redundancy rescinded

[doubleu-anker]

Wing Commander Fowler

As far as the bearded wonder goes, with regards to respect and manners are concerned, what did you expect?

He is a product of the British public school system, after all, so nuff said.

[Mister Geezer]

EGCC4284

and is it true what I heard 2 weeks ago that some of those who were working their notice had their redundancy rescinded

A friend of mine is in that boat apparently so it looks like there is some truth to it.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

That is indeed good news. Together with the news from BALPA that there will be no CR at BA, today is a good news day:ok:

[Baron buzz]

I only wish my employer would give me the same treatment!! Glad to hear some good news for a change!

[air2bob]

:ok: Agreed! nice to hear some good news fed up of all the bad been to long now! hopefully things will start to improve 2010 onwards for all.