BRITISH AIRWAYS - THERE IS LIFE NORTH OF WATFORD IN CASE YOU HAVE NOT NOTICED

[chihuahua]

Why is it that BA have failed to successfully operate long haul services from Manchester?

In the 1970’s they operated two services across the Atlantic, one to New York, and one to Canada (Toronto) using a 707 and a VC10. The 1980’s saw the appearance and disappearance of Los Angeles, whilst the Islamabad service which flew in the late 1990’s was chopped earlier this year. Now only New York remains (767).

So, with such a track record of reducing scheduled long haul services from Manchester, it would be reasonable to assume that the trend is across the board with other carriers, right?

Wrong!

The following carriers now operate scheduled long haul services, most on a daily basis, some with more that one destination:

American
Continental
Delta
US Airways
Air Canada
Cathay
Singapore
Malaysian
PIA (both Islamabad and New York)
Air India
Emirates (wow – a BA codeshare)
Virgin
Air Mauritius
Air Seychelles

Plus coming soon British Midland.

Interestingly QANTAS used to fly from Manchester until BA bought a share in the company. Then they stopped.

So, the conclusion is that the BA strategy is to fly everyone through their overcrowded hubs in London. Sorry, BA, but people are not stupid. They do not want the inconvenience of an inferior product when there is a better alternative in the north of the UK. For the benefit of BA board members, that is the area above Watford on the map where everyone eats black puddings whilst wearing knotted handkerchiefs on their head.


[This message has been edited by chihuahua (edited 27 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by chihuahua (edited 27 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by chihuahua (edited 27 September 2000).]

[paperboy]

Gotta get the Whippets off the runways first!!

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Paperboy - The Artist formerly known as luvly jubbly. Where's my other 500 posts gone???

[RVR800]

This is a good point...

I have observed whilst working in the north
of England that companies are putting their travelling staff through AMS CDG etc

Many companies in the North are doing very
well in international trading and BA is losing this trade due to a southern bias.

Airports in the North are under utilized
Wake up BA there is money to be made here..

[COWPAT]

Dont tell everyone or they will all discover the secrets of the North.

What secrets.

Cheap Houses
Decent beer
Lovely People
Hardly any stress

The South? Youre welcome to it.

[eeper]

I was of the impression that there was a JFK service from MAN.

[eeper]

Sorry, should have read the first post more carefully! Please ignore my previous post!

[enginefailure]

Why is it that LH have failed to successfully operate long haul services from Hamburg?

Another great city, same story
and we don't have DL,AA,AC and others .....
(we had, long ago)

[PUNM]

BA want to sell all of their seats from the London 2 by sending all of the UK down on the shuttle. I think this was a good move (financially) many years ago, but with huge competition now from AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC and even DUB operating as hubs, us northerners would rather go through Europe if a direct route isn't available. It's cheaper, just as convenient and just like the millenium dome, well I just wouldn't bother my arse going on an airline that I'm told I should be proud of. "The world's favorite airline" -my arse!

[Crappy_Modem]

I would hardly call an existence in Yorkshire a "life". The problem with the gene-pool up there is that there is no lifeguard.

[The Zombie]

North or South, but what about the East Midlands?
My home from home when not living in the South East of England.(too many people down there and the beer is not cheap either)

Where is the best place to live and why?
Scotland was good for a short while until I discovered the HUGE level of rasicm against the English.
America has good shopping but then there are all the obvious draw backs......!
France seems to be ok for tax reasons.
Any thoughts my fellow Ppruners??????
:)

[Land After]

One of the happiest days of my PAX life was when BD started an alternative to the BA LHR shuttle. Wider seats, decent food and cabin crew that smile. Makes the journey to the land of stress, warm flat beer and expensive housing worthwhile :)

I'll be happy when we get an alternative to BA on the LGW route.

DUB is a hub is OK - a real mess with the building work but a big plus is traveling to the US - clearing US immigration in DUB. No queues in the states an immigration officers who seem happy in their job!!

[identnospeed]

Warm beer is what you get up North, it only gets warm in the South when its been left out in the sun too long ....... something which obviously ain't gonna happen in the rain-capital of the UK.

Also I think the delineation between North and South is Watford Gap (as in the service station).

INS (kokni geeza, as in "route DET - DVR - KOKNI - GEEZA for EBBR")

[enginefailure]

and the topic was ......

[Magnus Picus]

Asked a senior manager this one and his answer was.

Mainline (LHR) Do not want to cannibalise their own well established customer base by setting up internal competition for customers in the 'Midlands'.

This comment refers mainly to MANCHESTER.

They are convinced people North of the Pennines would gladly link with the shuttle from GLA/EDI/ABZ/MAN/BFS and seemlessly transfer from Terminal 1 to Terminal 4.

They have tried Long Haul bases at MAN and GLA but the sums have not added up. Some say this is due to pathetic selling from our colleagues in the telesales centres who earn more money selling the Shuttle LHR + Terminal 4 package rather than 'reminding' someone who has just given you their address as "OOP NORTH" that a service direct to the USA operates from MAN/GLA.

The numbers were always there for GLA-JFK, MAN-LAX but the back up from the LHR paronoid accountants with bollox made of putty 'portrayed' these bases as non cost effective.

As the accountants say,
"How much do you want it to cost?"

------------------
Magnus

[AJ]

MP appears to be right, in that the official BA line on regional longhaul ops is simply: not economically viable (or viable enough)-at the moment.

It is very easy to talk about the success of companies such as Emirates et al at MAN, but the fact is, that operating one or two a/c a day to an overseas destination, is a slightly different ball-game to setting up an entire regional longhaul op. from MAN etc.

The potential exposure is very different.

BA would be looking to set up at least 10 LH a/c at MAN, with frequencies to match.

The fact that LHR and others are now seriously congested, does not of course, help anyone.

I do agree fully with others, who note the benefit of using KLM or Air France from the regions, and connecting at CDG thereafter.

I personally use AF from Birmingham to fly to Luanda, Angola.

The following question was asked at the most recent BA shareholder meeting:

Q: Could you come back to hubs and the future? First, where do you see Manchester in the British Airways network and, secondly, looking a little further ahead, do you believe there is a need for, or what are the benefits of, having another hub somewhere in continental Europe from your perspective?

I know that Rod said in the longer term there is a need for one. What do you think that that brings to you as network planning?


A:Robert Boyle: I will try to answer that without getting myself into deep water, so you will permit me to be a little cagey on some aspects of that.

Clearly, Manchester is an important market for us, not least because we take a large amount of premium traffic over our London hubs and onto longhaul destinations.

There are many gold card-holders who travel every day on the Manchester shuttle, so Manchester is an important marketplace for us. We have also put a lot of network in and continue to do so to provide point-to-point services shorthaul out of Manchester.

It is a tough market and we need to get our costs right and to use the right equipment type and, as I have said, the market is going in the direction of regional jets there.

Those bits are clear and every time Manchester Airport come to see me, I am asked the question how about a nice hub in Manchester, we have a second runway etc. It has never seemed to us a very compelling business case and certainly not one that we are contemplating at the moment.

Our strategy at the moment is to develop point-to-point services out of Manchester and, you never know, in future if that proves to be a very profitable and successful base, that is the point at which you might then seek to grow more widely.

However, that is not currently in our plans.

Cheers
AJ

ps-And Air France customer service is a cut above BA's... :)


[This message has been edited by AJ (edited 13 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by AJ (edited 13 May 2001).]

[mallard]

The first jet service from MAN to New York was by Sabena, originating in Brussels.
That was promptly squashed by the old protected BOAC who had no intention of doing something the same.
Similarly, among the first jet visitors to MAN were an Air France Caravelle and a Swissair DC8. I received corporal punishment at school for skipping games to cycle to see the DC8 but at least I have a photo taken from the old rhubarb field at the end of R/W 24.
It was always a matter of contention that what is now BA could not see further than Uxbridge.
Look at MAN now.
If I want to go to the States I will be looking at the American carriers.
I work for one of several airlines which fill wide bodies flying to a variety of long haul, and short and medium haul, carrying the sort of people BA don't seem to be interested in any more.

[JP5A]

I went New York a couple of weeks ago from EGCC.Quite sad really to see a 767 only half full with nobody in Business Class.Business Class was half full coming home.
Very good service and good legroom.Why was Continental full yet leaves much later with poor service(according to my pals who were on that flight the same day).One bod told me that the lack of business class punters up North deters BA from persuing further long haul routes.
Last week my son went to Miami from Manch.and went Air France via CDG.Seems a shame that we only have JFK with our flag carrier and have to go down south to go to other destinations like LA or S.Africa etc

[chiglet]

Air India, I don't think have operated a "scheduled service".
BAW from EGCC to KLAX was 80+% load factor, then a second LAX started down south.
PIA have two transit/pickups daily JFK westbound and OPRN/OPKC east plus the dedicated OPRN 5 times per week.
BMA started KIAD. Will start ORD soon.During the VC10 days,[3-4 times per week] BOAC [allegedly] said that MAN would NEVER support a daily transat service!
Today, before I left work, the list was
AAL BAW BMI ACA COA DAL USA [ALL schedele]
MON BAL AIH TSC CMM AMM [charters]

[CRP5]

Relatives of mine visited their local tarvel agents in Ramsbottom for a 4 day break in NY

"No problem shuttle to LHR followed by service to NY"

"but can,t we go direct from EGCC?"

"can you?"

OF COURSE YOU CAN!!!

A long time ago, a senior BA manager said to me NEVER will BA take away the lime light from LHR , this is the MECCA for BA, nothing detracts us from what we do at LHR!!

Its simple POLITICS POLITICS POLITICS.

Staff at ticketing, travel agents etc are simply told to sell tickets ex LHR simple as that!

[northern boy]

One day when LHR and LGW finally grind to a total halt and there are 3 hour delays on the ground and 2 hours getting dizzy in the hold at Bov and Lambourne, the southern biased Armani suit brigade will wake up to the fact that commercial life does not stop at Scratchwood services, and that Northern folk no longer think the bath is for keeping the coal in. Full marks to BM and the best of luck for having a little faith in Manchester.If they make a shedload of wonga , and I sincerely hope they do,it may just convince others to follow suit.And yes I admit to a degree of self interest!.

[cossack]

JP5A
As a frequent user of Continental I can confirm that it is nearly always full and provides a service at least equal to, if not better than BA, with an aircraft that has a much better reliability record than BA's tired 767 which (from first hand experience of arriving 31 hours late and missing a day's work) is pretty poor.

Give me Continental every time.

BA obviously aren't interersted in offering non-premium customers from the regions direct services to the places they want to go to. They'd rather shuttle them through an already over-streched LHR on smaller and smaller aircraft. From nearly all 757 and occasional 767 its now 757, 737 and 320/319. What are they playing at?

As an aside, MAN is becoming overcrowded at the busy times of day. More apron is needed now not in 5 years when you've lost all your traffic because they were fed up waiting half an hour plus for a stand.

BA said they would up their services when "their" terminal was built. Not convinced that has happened.

[mallard]

What's happening with the BA MAN-JFK service.
I tend to check ceefax page 448 to see what's going on.
A few days ago the inbound to UK flight was flagged with an indefinite delay.
The following day the service was cancelled and when I went to work there it was, the 767 was parked remote doing nothing.
Strange or what?

[cossack]

It was either Sun or Mon morning's JFK-MAN 1502 which was delayed. It arrived at about luchtime via Shannon and that day's 1503 was cancelled as was the return 1502 the next day.
It ran the day after though.
Told you it was unreliable! :)

(early day typos)

[This message has been edited by cossack (edited 24 May 2001).]