179 pax survive jet scare at Mumbai.

[weido_salt]

Yes they're all safe!! News channels making a meal of it as usual.

Aircraft pushes back without the ramp clear. door of a/c damaged but disaster averted!!!!

Maybe the passengers should sue for PSD?!

[Boeing7xx]

Any idea which airline? type?

[fadedfootpaths]

Air India/Indian Airlines

Type: A320

:E:E:E

[Sky Dancer]

Yeap...Indian Airlines has written off a couple of B 737s , Avros , F 27s but just 1 A 320 in the past.I guess they want to up their tally a bit..it's amazing how an average IC pilot talks about their really top notch quality of training and how only the best make the cut blah blah blah blah..I wonder why the results don't show...:ok:

[saperaa]

Aerobridge rams into plane at Mumbai airport-News-Videos-The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Aerobridge-rams-into-plane-at-Mumbai-airport/videoshow/4486023.cms)

[vinayak]

none of it makes sense to me!

the before start checklists clearly requires you to have windows/doors closed.

secondly even if the pilots failed to see that the aerobridge is connected shouldn't the ground personal on the PPU acted otherwise to the instructions by the flight deck?

Shame to see our (Indian taxpayers) money being wasted like this.

[Capt Apache]

Yeap...Indian Airlines has written off a couple of B 737s , Avros , F 27s but just 1 A 320 in the past.I guess they want to up their tally a bit..it's amazing how an average IC pilot talks about their really top notch quality of training and how only the best make the cut blah blah blah blah..I wonder why the results don't show


Are you some kind of Sherlock Holmes to have already investigated the case.Its disgusting to see how fast people start blaming a pilot(often one of their own).There are human factors(probably other than just the pilots) involved in this incident and Im sure we all could learn something from it if we stop looking for scapegoats.

[jet_air]

Yeap...Indian Airlines has written off a couple of B 737s , Avros , F 27s but just 1 A 320 in the past.I guess they want to up their tally a bit..it's amazing how an average IC pilot talks about their really top notch quality of training and how only the best make the cut blah blah blah blah..I wonder why the results don't show...http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif



Let me tell u I have personally seen some of the best airmen in this industry in Indian Airlines. No doubt. If given an option to choose one airline in the world to fly for the rest of my life it would be IC. & what do u mean the results dont show? How many Indian Airlines Acft have gone down in the last decade... compare it to the other majors in this planet ?
GET UR FACTS RIGHT !

[Sky Dancer]

For starters , if given a chance IC would certainly NOT be the airline I would like to travel for the rest of my life.To answer your question , Indian Airlines lost ONE aircraft in the last decade , that is the B 737 - 200 they lost in Patna.Technically it was Alliance Air but the crew were on deputation from IC.But I agree with you , IC does produce some of the finest crew and I am happy to say that I did have the privilege to have flown with them and did learn much from them.But what tends to cause problems with many of the crew from IC is the attitude and work culture and the last accident testifies this.Let's face it the accident rates all over the world have been brought down substantially due to the technology we have on board aircraft these days and this has helped IC no doubt.From my experience , most of the guys I flew with from IC seemed to convey the message to me that I would have never made the cut in IC and that only a chosen few made it into IC.I always had this nagging question , why if the pilots were so good was the flight safety record pathetic....I got my answer years ago at a get together of mainly IC guys...a couple of drinks and they were talking of the heroes of yesterday...the type of approaches flown , things done ...blah blah blah...and I realized that the heroes in their eyes were the ones that cared 2 bits about procedures and regulations......and the ones that actually thought like commercial pilots were the weak pilots....coming back to the Mumbai incident I have my own theory on what could have happened...but we'll wait for the facts to come out and I'll confess if I was right ...:ok:

[Capt Apache]

You must be quite naive to believe a bunch of drunks full of alcohol and exaggeration.I do agree that CRM is often an issue in India.Regarding their perception about their stringent training, let me tell you that I have got similar inputs from a couple guys not from India about their Holier than thou airline standards....but I dont go around blaming their lot or their company.....I will wait for your confession.

[air_cowboy]

I think i agree with Cappo Apache.. CRM would be/is an issue at IC.

How many times have u said 'Windows/ Doors' ...and got 'Closed' when they were not closed and/or not armed?...
good crm: "Sir, pls standby!!"
bad crm : ok maybe he is just trying to get on with things, so should i say anything...ummm..."Closed"

Thats y we have checklists!!!

[saperaa]

most of the guys I flew with from IC seemed to convey the message to me that I would have never made the cut in IC and that only a chosen few made it into IC.I always had this nagging question , why if the pilots were so good was the flight safety record pathetic....I got my answer years ago at a get together of mainly IC guys...a couple of drinks and they were talking of the heroes of yesterday...the type of approaches flown , things done ...blah blah blah...and I realized that the heroes in their eyes were the ones that cared 2 bits about procedures and regulations......

many airports in India has no procedures. no ILS,SOME times NDB may not be working,then you need piloting procedures,
and many times you will see every pilots has designed his own procedure.
:ok:
and at one airport you will find various procedures depanding upon wx and other reasons at any given time.
was on holiday on IAC flt and had the chance to be in the cockpit
and saw pilot navigating on stop watch bcz no VOR ,NDB was in range for flight and when we locked to VOR we were on DR posn.
is it a procedure to fly on stop watch for navigation....man you will only fly on GPS equipped airlines.


sky dancer

pilot of hijacked plane from KTM-DEL-LAHORE-KANDHAR see tht.......
lahore airport no lights,no ILS/VOR/ADF @ lahore airport...stress with gun on head...landed safely without fuel( one engine shuts dwn after landing due fuel starvation) flight engg bleeding,pax bleeding.
lahore airport ATC had shutdown all facilities so that a/c can not land.

this was A-300 no GPS still at night navigation done on pilot instinct:ok:

But what tends to cause problems with many of the crew from IC is the attitude and work culture and the last accident testifies this.Let's face it the accident rates all over the world have been brought down substantially due to the technology we have on board aircraft these days and this has helped IC no doubt.From my experience , most of the guys I flew with from IC seemed to convey the message to me that I would have never made the cut in IC

when you compare accidents with high technology around the world
and India you will see your doubts clearing.
IC with hitech flying airbus since almost 20 years and one accident that too when 320 ,was inducted By IC (launch customer IAC)
IAC was launching pad for AIRBUS .
and it was shift from conventional to flyby wire for those pilots.
and airbus 320 had not proved its self to the world.
and no accident since then........
where as whole world got same hitech a/cs
why so many accidents now.

[Sky Dancer]

Sapeera for the record I have done my fair share on aircraft with no GPS/INS/IRS and flown into airfields which are purely VFR based.These days I don't think IC flies into any airfield which does not have a instrument let down procedure so I would appreciate it if you can tell which airfield did you sit for the approach.About the Kandahar hijack , the captain lined up on a road initially....he went by instinct...this was because the ATC refused clearance and switched off the lights.When the ATC realized what was about to happen , they switched on the lights and the captain realized where he was and landed.The FE never bled....it was Rupen Katyal that bled and eventually died...throw me the story , I'll give you the facts my friend:ok:

[jet_air]

I go with SD.. I dont think IC flies into non instrument airports..

[saperaa]

IC does fly many airports in the east,north where supply has to be maintained.
some airports are civil,some military,some without any aids likeVOR/ADF.
n some are just runways .

This is one reason why IAC pilots are so importent to the government that they have to give 6 months notice period.

I have done my fair share on aircraft with no GPS/INS/IRS and flown into airfields which are purely VFR based

sky dancer

i didnot ask you your share of no GPS/INS/ADF but VFR approach also has a procedure called visual approach.

your knowledge seems good on kandhar flight n can watch on Discovery channel.

jet air

you can ask pilots from jetair about charter flight to one airport in KARGIL if you are working with jet;)
ex IAC pilot took the flight.
20,000 alt i think, military strip. i think only jet/allianceair had the a/c capable to go .
two more such landing sites totally north of north.

most of the guys I flew with from IC seemed to convey the message to me that I would have never made the cut in IC

since sky dancer did join IAC he can .......
can hear more stories on your next party from IAC pilots but you will never understand why....your doubts....may remain because you missed IAC experience.

[saperaa]

sky dancer

it's amazing how an average IC pilot talks about their really top notch quality of training and how only the best make the cut blah blah blah blah..I wonder why the results don't show...http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

ask airbus
after banglore crash what they learned from indian airlines IAC.
not only from average IC PILOTS but the Top guys in enggineering as well.
IAC contribution helped a lot for flyby wire success.

and check about THOIS AIRPORT.

the captain lined up on a road initially....he went by instinct...this was because the ATC refused clearance and switched off the lights.When the ATC realized what was about to happen , they switched on the lights and the captain realized where he was and landed.The FE never bled...

captain of hijacked flight wanted to make landing on the road which was having lights because of fuel starvation,when he was about to land he thought of so many innocent lifes on board and prayed to the God to make him OWL so that he can see at night, God listened to him and told ATC to do the needful, then this average pilot of IAC aborted the landing on road.
when he saw airport lights he just went and landed flying at very low alt. with fuel starved engine on a flt from amritsar to lahore .

then he flew to kandhar where 10 days of stay with the hijackers and kept every thing under control.:ok:
katyal was one innocent passenger who lost his life.

Thoise Airbase (http://wikimapia.org/1282826/Thoise-Airbase)

most of the guys I flew with from IC seemed to convey the message to me that I would have never made the cut in IC and
see the experience of these average IAC pilots.....they told you much before abt your capability.

[saperaa]

sky dancer
you didnot last 10 seconds
this everage IAC pilot spend 10 days in hostage.

[acy RJ driver]

Yeap...Indian Airlines has written off a couple of B 737s , Avros , F 27s but just 1 A 320 in the past.I guess they want to up their tally a bit..it's amazing how an average IC pilot talks about their really top notch quality of training and how only the best make the cut blah blah blah blah..I wonder why the results don't show...http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Despite the cocky attitudes of some, the results dont show cause no matter how hard you try, you cant make a turd shine!:}

[Sky Dancer]

Saap I think you need to really research your facts and figures.Going by your banter you seem to be from IAC or from a similar organization.There is much we can talk about the Kandahar hijack.Capt. Devi Sharan and his crew did a good job but there are many facts that have not really been discussed in public as no one really seems interested.Coming back to your point about the IAC A 320 crash it is true that many changes were incorporated by Airbus into the training methodology and on board systems of the fly by wire family after this crash.But to make it sound like IAC was a driving force behind the success of the fly by wire family is taking things a bit too far.Take this case , IAC has always made a big deal about the tough operating conditions and airfields they fly into.The fact is they really haven't considered the fact that tough airfields and conditions don't exist only in South Asia.If you open your eyes and ears...or research the internet better , you can see the pretty tough conditions some of our fellow aviators around the world fly into.A good example of this arrogance or ignorance is this fact that when IAC ordered the A 320 they insisted that bogey wheels be put on all their A 320s.They felt that the A 320 could not meet the performance criteria of the airfields they wanted to operate into around India.Airbus told them that there was no need for this but IAC in its wisdom overruled them.This was the cause of so many spurious warnings and confusion in the cockpit as IAC till date are the only A 320 oeprators in the world that have opted for bogey wheels.However in the new aircraft coming in bogey wheels are not there.If you take a look at some of the South American airfields , you can see that the A 320 meets the performance criteria of some very demanding airfields comfortably...and note that some of these fields are purely VFR.....:ok:

[Stel]

Sky Dancer

For your info, the main reason why the a/c where ordered with dual tandem undercarriage was to lower the ACN (by spreading the a/c weight across 8 main wheels rather than 4) and thus allow them to operate, in those days, into airfields with very low PCN. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the airfield is demanding or not!

[saperaa]

sky dancer
Airbus told them that there was no need for this but IAC in its wisdom overruled them.This was the cause of so many spurious warnings and confusion in the cockpit

IAC ordered boggie configuration.
IAC knows about its operations and requirements better than anybody.
if now standrad boggie is coming that is also for the change in operating requirements.
but if you think boggie idea was wrong.......
i think even if it was wrong IAC everage pilots and engg. operated the 320 a/c with great success.
its only IAC who could operate boggie n no body else in the world.

Airbus told them that there was no need for this but IAC in its wisdom overruled them.This was the cause of so many spurious warnings and confusion in the cockpit

IAC operated boggie configuration successfully even AIRBUS had told IAC donot go for boggie.

If you take a look at some of the South American airfields , you can see that the A 320 meets the performance criteria of some very demanding airfields comfortably...and note that some of these fields are purely VFR.....http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

IAC pilot who flew on stopwatch navigating to the destination was always IFR. without any help of radio navigation available to navigate.
And he landed safely at a VFR field.

thats the reason at times many have doubts about procedures @IAC .

for sure many pilots are flying around the world in very demanding circumstances and doing great job .
India is one of such places where you get all type of harsh wx, tarrain,airfields,infrastructure.
and IAC is one AIRLINES which sends its average pilots for flying throu this.


IAC has always made a big deal about the tough operating conditions and airfields they fly into.The fact is they really haven't considered the fact that tough airfields and conditions don't exist only in South Asia

IAC average pilots fly to most places .

[Sky Dancer]

Saaps.....I had my doubts from the beginning but after reading that post of yours I am certain you are not a pilot....:ok:

[Sky Dancer]

Stel....errr doesn't ACN/PCN come under the subject of performance....and err wasn't that what I was talking about ???:ok:

[iflytb20]

Any further info on the "Jet Scare" as the media calls it.???

[ALBION123]

Sky Dancer (http://www.pprune.org/members/231144-sky-dancer)

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Big Blue Yonder
Posts: 123


Saaps.....I had my doubts from the beginning but after reading that post of yours I am certain you are not a pilot....http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


sounds ok at least humankind.

[NGFellow]

Sounds like Getsetgo--Remember him?