Jet Handing Text Book

[scallaghan]

Hi

I have been recommended to get a text book called "handling the big jets" authored by DP Davies. I would like to read up on Jet Handling and operations for the future.

Is this text book better then "flying the big jets" authored by stanley jones?

I am only asking as both books have similar names and I cannot remember which was the better read.

[411A]

'Handling The Big Jets' was authored by David P. Davies who, for quite sometime, was head of aircraft certification for the UKCAA.
The book was first available 'round about 1968 (that's when I read it) and updated several times over the years.

This is the one you want.
Nothing else compares.

And yes, Capt Davies references to some of the early jet transport aeroplanes was spot on...I flew one of them, and they were not all that easy to fly, compared to more modern types.
In one particular case, Davies told Boeing that they had better modify the rudder power system on the early B707, or it would not be accepted onto the British civil register.
Boeing did as they were told.

[Checkboard]

"Flying the big jets" is what it says on the cover - an introduction for the layman on what it is like to fly a big jet. If you aren't a layman (i.e. you have any type of pilot license) then it won't be of much help to you. (It's a good book for what it tries to do, though - explains the life and operation without dumbing down the subject.)

"Handling the big jets" is a much more technical work, and much more interesting (and really the only one of the two you would want) for those with a professional licence.

[rubik101]

Davies' book was and still is the classic of its kind. Nothing has come close since it was first published. I am led to believe, although I haven't seen a new edition, that it is updated periodically to keep it on top of new technology. Someone will know!

[Metro man]

D.P. Davies is very unlikely to update his book as he is now dead.:{
A useful introduction to jet flying, BUT look at the publication date. EFIS, FMS, fly by wire were still years away. Read it by all means, but make sure you have current information for the type you will be on, and use that in the event of any discrepancy.

Flying the Big Jets is useful to hand to a layman wanting basic information about airliners and is not nearly indepth enough for professional pilots.

[stilton]

'Handling the Big Jets' was, and still is a classic, it should be required reading for anyone flying transport category jets.


Having said that, a follow on combining all of the originals attributes with well written explanations of modern systems, automation and electronics and the human interface with them is sorely needed.

[BelArgUSA]

Be aware that "Handling the Big Jets" by D.P. Davies was issued to every newly hired Pan American pilot from 1969 until sometimes in the 1980s, as recommended flight training information for the 707, and in the third edition issued in the late 1970s, which included chapters about the 747.
xxx
As an instructor at the Academy, I never failed to quote paragraphs of that masterpiece for initial training classroom lectures in 707, 727 or 747 training programs. Despite modern technology airplanes, it remains highly recommended to anyone starting a career as jet pilot, and supplements the official issues of FCTMs by Boeing...
xxx
Another less known book, is "Fly the Wing" (by Jim Webb), an excellent source of information for the DC-9 or similar type of aircraft, which clarifies some concepts of FAR/JAR Part 25 performance, for twin jets.
xxx
Regarding "Flying the Big Jets" by Stanley Jones, I have not failed to read it as well, as an introduction to more modern aircraft equipment and vocabulary, however, D.P. Davies' masterpiece original remains the basic source of knowledge. After all, even modern airplanes such as Airbus types are not exempt from similar handling characteristics, and problems. In 2009, aircraft flying remains "lift as opposed to gravity" and "thrust as opposed to drag" despite EFIS and "fly by wire" concepts... Agreed...?
xxx
Despite the fact that I am now retired, "Handling the Big Jets" has remained my favorite bedside table book, and I open it, at times, to answer some questions that appear in Pprune...
xxx
I say again, a masterpiece and a "must read"... Make it your Bible or Quran...
:D
Happy contrails

[transfer jack]

check also the "PilotsReference Guide". It contains the technical part of the atpl knowledge, in particular Jet aerodynamics and performance.

[groundfloor]

Get it, Read it, Understand it and put it into practise! Handling the Big Jets by Davies is a Gem.

[minimany]

Am I alone in thinking that Handling the Big Jets is a long way short of being a masterpiece and is in fact quite tedious and far from clear on a number of issues?

[Clandestino]

:confused:

I couldn't find anything tedious or unclear in the book, I'd appreciate if you would elaborate a little bit more - like which issues you find far from clear.

As far as I'm concerned, the book is a masterpiece - any current or aspiring jet transport pilot should read and understand it. In chapters dealing with handling differences, replace "piston" with "turboprop" and the book will look amazingly modern.

[Jumbo Driver]

Is this text book better then "flying the big jets" authored by stanley jones?

I think you will find that "Flying the Big Jets" was written by Stanley Stewart (not Jones), an ex-colleague of mine. He wrote it when he was a co-pilot on the Classic 747 fleet with BA. It is certainly an interesting read for those unfamiliar with what happens on the flight deck of a transatlantic airliner and why - and it culminates in a detailed account of an actual flight from LHR - JFK in the mid-1980s. Quite a nostalgic read, for some of us now!

However Checkboard is correct when he says that "Handling the Big Jets" is by far the better technical book for the professional pilot. It is actually an older book, being first published in 1967 and, as has been mentioned, it was issued to many of us at the time of our early jet conversions. It was written by D.P.Davies, who was then Chief Test Pilot of the UK Air Registration Board, and I would go so far as to say that it was at that time regarded as the definitive book on the subject.

Because of their age, neither book will of course now properly reflect current operations but, having said that, both books are a very good read in their own way.


JD
:)

P.S. I have just seen that the latest (4th) Edition (2002) of Flying the Big Jets now includes the B777 and an account of a flight from LHR - BOS in the B777, so it should explain glass cockpits and other aspects of more modern operations. Another good read, I expect, but I haven't read it myself yet ...

[Metro man]

Definately read "Handling the Big Jets", especially if you have an interview coming up, it's a favourite basis for questions. Most of it is still relevent today, just remember it's based on Comet,Trident, VC10, B707, B727 and touches on the just introduced B747 classic.

Make sure any techniques suggested are still applicable to the type you will be flying. Make sure you know what's applicable to your type but isn't covered because it wasn't around back then.

Most of the pilots transitioning to jets these days won't be coming from DC3s and Viscounts, more likely a light twin or modern turboprop such as an ATR 42, SAAB 340 or Dash 8.

Just like your approach plates, there is no substitute for current information.

[rubik101]

Metro man, what made you think that I was under the impression that Davies was other than deceased?
I stated that the book was periodically updated with each new edition. No mention of by whom.
I was fully aware the man had passed away, by the way.

[Metro man]

I have the third edition dated December 1971, REPRINTED April 1990. Do you understand the difference between "reprinted" - to print again, and "updated" - to bring up to date ? There are several online dictionaries available which will define the words for you.

BTW,on page 310 D.P.Davies talks about the limitations of the simulator. This would have been perfectly correct back in the early 1970s. These days we have zero flight time simulators and the realism is astounding.

[al446]

Both are available on Amazon (no doubt other sites as well) at reasonable price. Always check for publication date, 2002 has 777 update.

[BelArgUSA]

Do not criticize old or older publications and editions of books and manuals.
xxx
Boeing FCTMs as an example.
In the course of my job as instructor, I was always receiving latest editions.
Updates and corrections when warranted or required. New procedures as well.
xxx
For the 747 Classic - I had the latest edition 2001...
And at home, I found an old 747 FCTM which dated back to 1982.
Very little since 1982 had been changed.
But notoriously, the newer editions had reduced page contents.
Half the number of pages in a 2001 FCTM compared to 1982... Save the rain forests, probably.
The 1982 edition contains text, documentation, graphs and tables which later were supressed.
I valued that older edition, which I corrected by hand with some updates.
Rather prefer 400 pages than 250...
xxx
You gentlemen like "everything new and up-to-date"...?
Obviously, you dislike more detailed knowledge and data.
Starting to believe that, in this century, pilots suffer of mental atrophy.
xxx
:suspect:
Rocking my retirement chair - Happy contrails

[411A]

Starting to believe that, in this century, pilots suffer of mental atrophy.


Possibly some, but certainly not all.
My present First Officer is of the latter type.
He is constantly asking questions about performance (just as one example), especially as we completed an engine unserviceable ferry not all that long ago.
It is indeed a pleasure to fly with folks like this, and he is rapidly on the road to an early Command....at age 27.
'To have superior knowledge is to greatly succeed' is an old saying, true yesterday, true today.

To have actual operating experience is also very important, of course, however....it is just as important to know why as to know how.

[al446]

It was not a criticism, I share some of your viewpoints but was meant more in the spirit of answering the OP which seemed to come from one in the earlier part of life and more likely to find the 777 of relevance within his lifetime.

[Metro man]

You gentlemen like "everything new and up-to-date"...?

My company , an A320 operator recently introduced the A319. We were required to complete a differences course which was emailed out to us. I checked through some old Northwest Airlines manuals which showed some additional differences not given in the notes. I emailed these to the head of training, his reply was that this applied to the older version of the aircraft, not the one we had and not to study non approved documentation.:hmm:


Always check for publication date, 2002 has 777 update.
This is "FLYING the Big Jets". "HANDLING the Big Jets" is still third edition 1973, there are some earlier editions going back to 1967 available.

See my earlier post regarding update vs reprint.

[rubik101]

Metro man, when I need an education in the meaning of the words I use, you will be the last one I turn to. I said that I believed the book had been updated, not that it was updated with every reprint. Read my posts before you give me your sneeringly critical and unwarranted advice.
The fact that I was wrong about the updates doesn't give you the right to criticize my use of words.

[Metro man]

Grow up, you were wrong, admit it and learn something. Anyone know how I can block this guy, he's becoming somewhat tedious ? It's rather tiresome having to read his rants and raves.

[al446]

You are, of course, quite correct, I had confused the two - an easy mistake to make.

rubik101 - When you are in a hole the best advice is to stop digging.

[Crossunder]

To answer the original Q: Firstly - why were you recommended to read this book? The CX interview perhaps, or just out of general interest? ;)
Davies' book is a good read, but I found it to be like an old ATPL book. It says a little about a lot - most of it old news now, and covered by FCTMs and loads of other good books out there. Skimmed through it for the CX interview, but learned very little new from it. I also bought "FLYING the big jets" by mistake, which was a eeeehrm....rather dull and uninteresting book best suited for laymen I guess.

I recommend J.P Ternvigs book "Aerodynamics for airline pilots" (Sold through SAS/Oxford Aviation Academy I believe). Captain Ternvig specialises in air combat and medium/heavy jet aerodynamics. This is the ultimate read on the subject, and much more in-depth and interesting :)

My 2 small-value coins' worth...

[al446]

I have now bought the Davies book, got it off ebay for a song and arrived this morning. As I am not a pilot I bought it more out of interest than anything else. After I have had a look through it and sated my curiosity you are welcome to it if you think it still of interest to you. PM me if interested.

[Capt Turbo]

Thanks, crossunder, for bringing the thread back on track :ok:.

The good, old "Handling the big...." was the right book at the right time when so many ex-prop jocks were simply scared stiff when they realized that their thrusty DC-6 was being replaced by a 707 not to mention a 747 a few years later.
The book is still very readable being well written, but for the professional pilot the finer details are not there. Another nice one from that era is "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" written for the carrier aces when the US Navy switched to jets in the 50th. It has been reprinted

"Aerodynamics for airline pilots" covers most of the mysteries surrounding multi-engine ops and was written to cover the JAA written exam on the subject. It is sold out, however, and has not been reprinted as far as I know.

Airbus Industries has a series of "Getting to grips with....." covering many aspects of professional aviation. I believe 6-8 books of which one is on jet performance. Coming from the "horse´s mouth" it explains how certification rules (JAR/FAR 25) infuence the aircraft design and the operation.

As one of the evils in our industry is the I-know-it-all Flight Instructor, Examiner, Chief Pilot etc. with a knowledge being way outdated :ugh: , I strongly recommend that you try to get your hands on the Airbus version. It was written in Toulouse in 2000, so it is the most recent and valid if you are going to fly a modern jet.

Unless your company was smart enough to enclude the book(s) in the order for their new Airbusses, it is hard to get a hardcopy, as they are not for public sale (we are French, you know...). However, rumour has it that you can download a copied (Indian?) version from the web.

Can anyone help with any info on this??

Best of luck, turbo.