Did anyone find training as hard as I do?

[dboydan]

Hi everyone,

This message goes out to anyone who is currently well established as a pilot within an airline, and who had a far harder than normal training experience. Basically im at a point in my training where im thinking the most horrendous thoughts about my abilities, but im not sure if I only feel this way because I somehow managed to get into a very saught after training organisation which surrounds me with very intelligent and able people, or because I am genuinely not very good at it all. Everyone else seems to be finding it so much easier than I do, and I am so fed up of having remedial training.

What I would really appreciate here is some stories of you fellas who have, like I said in the beginning, had a real tough time getting though, but who are happily doing the job without any real difficulty and who dont actually feel sick all the time with self doubt. Maybe I just want to make myself feel better, to know that im not the only one to struggle this much, and I know everyone finds it hard sometimes, but I really don’t know how else to write this post without it sounding like I am just another person feeling sorry for myself.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to hearing from those of you who just cant believe that they managed to make it!!!


...Dboy

[Danny1987]

I found driving hard at first! Now i consider myself one of the best drivers in the world!

[no sponsor]

In my own personal experience, you have ups and downs. Your instructors will know of the training curve, where at some point in training, people take a step backwards, or don't progress as well as they have done in the past. It is a normal part of training.

However, this should not happen all the time. I would have a word with your CFI about it, and explain how you feel. Constant negativity is not productive, and the CFI should be able to work through the issues you have, which may mean changing instructors, changing the pattern of instruction, having a break, etc.

The more you progress, the tougher it can get, and self belief and confidence are essential to making it through - and these should be instilled within you by the training regime.

[corsair]

I can relate to that, I had a tough time too in training. But looking back on it. It was mostly in the head. I was my own worst enemy. Trying too hard. In part it was because I tried to maximise the training benefit from each flight because it was costing me a fortune. When I failed to make progress it made it worse. My Instructors were frustrated by my inconsistency and the doubts flooded in. I almost deliberately induced mistakes.

But once I learned to relax, it tended to fall into place. Also I changed Instructor. The other Instructor was excellent but I couldn't relax properly with him.

The problem with self doubt is that it reinforces itself. If you expect to fail, you will. Like I said it's as if you deliberately induce mistakes.


In the end I got through it. Once I was offered my first paid flying job. The doubts were still there. Clearly they had made a mistake. But strangely enough they hadn't. Leaving aside all modesty. I turns out I'm actually a damm good pilot and people have told me so based on their experience of other pilots. They didn't need to. I have become a typical pilot, with a gigantic albeit delicate ego.:ok:

In part, I believe the reason is at least in part because I struggled a bit and had to work harder to achieve a good standard. So it's well and truly imprinted on my brain. I've come across super confident pilots who obviously sailed through their training. Trouble was some of them couldn't even get the basics right. They must have had them at one stage but lost the skills without being aware. Basic things like maintaining straight and level flight or not climbing with stall warning blaring. Incredible but true.:eek:

My advice is to forget the negativity, try and relax but keep the concentration up. Work at it. If you make a mistake correct it and forget it. If you dwell on mistakes you'll repeat them or make new ones. Make sure you're comfortable with your Instructor. Start afresh, forget all the bad stuff and move on.

[Abagnale]

I don't want to dissappoint you,but have actually been trained many years ago and all the guys who were struggling actually didn't get far in their careers...But I can say that these people were not hard workers,the training is not so difficult to be honest,it's made for an AVERAGE person with AVERAGE abilities.I had this argument with some of my colleagues before and I'm going to say this one more time: What I don't understand is why nowadays anybody without any educational background can easily become a pilot?All you need is money,that's it,you can have 300 extra hours but you will still get the license.I feel like that's the main reason profession is becoming less and less prestigious with the average salary declining every year...Just think about it-not everybody can become a doctor,a lawyer,an engineer,because you need certain personal qualities and abilities to do those jobs,but many young pilots I work with nowadays are actually quite shocking...My point is there should be some kind of selection progress,probably govermental control,FTOs do not really care if you're going to kill 300 people the day after tommorrow,all they want is your money....And what do you want to hear?Something like-don't worry,everybody is been struggling throught the training,you'll be flying 737s anyway...No,that's not the case,I would say you should just take your training more seriously and WORK HARDER :suspect:

[dartagnan]

in my time, years ago, when i did my training in UK, I have seen 2 types of pilots, the one from UK , and train in UK. and pilots from USA, trained in the same school.

the guys from USA didn't struggle at all. The guys from UK, really struggle.Most failed their IR.

why? experience....

in resume, if you can not be soloed after 15h-20h, forget about this job!!!
some pilots need 30-40-or even 50h....:=

[Delta Uniform]

Abagnale....doctor,a lawyer,an engineer.....somehow I don't put Airline Pilots in that group. Flying's a skilled based exercise. Those who have the money and perseverence usually succeed. But who cares about the prestige...ha ha. Is that what you went into flying for.

[Ollie23]

dartagnan-Every post i have ever read of yours seems to be complete ill founded nonsense.

[James D]

I did my PPL in the states a few years ago, I went solo just shy of 31 hours.

I finished my ME IR in the south of England a couple of months back with a first time pass and in one hour over the minimum hours. CPL also in uk with no issue.

Once i got my head right, it all came along just fine.

[Option C]

I found the CPL and ME/IR to be the hardest part of the training. Type Rating and Line Training were, in my opinion, nowhere near as difficult as the single pilot flying.
Keep positive and keep working away at it. Take confidence from the positives in each flight you do, it might not seem like it but there are always positives no matter how badly you feel you have flown. Take note of the negatives and keep plugging away at them, perservance pays off! I know because it did for me.
Good luck to you!

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

It is indeed hard at times and I think most of us are in the "average" area of the bell curve so don't be intimidated by the people who "appear" to breeze it. In reality, they are probably finding it tough too, however some are better at blagging it out and putting up a front than others. One lesson I learned in my teenage years is do not ever be intimidated by those who can talk the talk. I found out that bluster and a sharp suit means sod all when it came down to the business end of things, but that's a little digression.

The training is hard at times, can be quite laborious at times, and indeed requires alot of concentration in the early stages. My advice would be to talk to your instructors to identify the weak areas, and then, and this is the devil in the detail, analyse your weakness then work and work and work your backside off at the detail of where you are weak. If it's related to ATPL knowledge, get your head in the books and read and UNDERSTAND the point, even if it is scary! And if it's flying you're struggling on, have your dinner then sit in an armchair and fly the plane in your chair, again and again and again, even make the bloody noise of the engine if it helps :) When it's time to raise the gear, raise the gear with a simulated movement, get the checks in your head, always think ahead to "what's next???". If you can keep ahead of the game and the aeroplane, it makes life so much easier, and this comes with repitition repitition repitition, and you don't need and expensive hourly rate aeroplane for this, and armchair is sufficient, seriously.

I'm at my second airline now, and all through my career and initial training especially I have sat my arse in my chair and gone through the routes in my head, doing the checks when I need to, and ALWAYS ALWAYS , thinking "what do I need to do next?"

Best wishes to you old son, keep positive, but work work work, detail detail detail, and as the footy managers say, you concentrate on your game, sod what the others are doing, they will have their own problems dont worry about that.

Good luck. :)

[MartinCh]

basically, you just wanted virtual pat on the shoulder and bit of comforting..
You've got some.
Be happy you have means to train. Some of us had to take undesired break due to funding.

As for the topic, well, I can't talk about finishing of CPL etc, but there are always plateaux during training. One day you feel like on top of things, next lesson or two you screw up something or just feel you didn't improve at all.
It's easy to be rational. Not that easy to be in that position that specific moment.

Yeah, flying airplanes is not that hard handling wise for PPL level. Try helicopters and all the emergency training in those..

[Whirlygig]

Feeling a little bitter Martin? :}

I don't have much to add to Corsair's excellent post (or Ollie 23's for that matter :)) except to reiterate that you might benefit from a different instructor.

Cheers

Whirls

[Abagnale]

2 Delata Uniform:

Exactly,but before we used to be in the same pool with highly qualified professionals,I don't care what people actually think about my profession,because I just love every minute of it,but I've always worked hard to get where I am now and haven't actually failed ANYTHING in my life,nor I ever required any extra training,not a single minute...I'm not better than anybody else,in fact before going into training most people told me I would never succeed,I just didn't have the talent,there were guys hundred times more talented than me,but HARD WORK put me ahead of anybody else...And what happens nowadays?Guys just study question bank,trying to pass exams as soon as possible,not trying to understand the concepts , when it comes to flight training obviously they find it hard,because they haven't got a clue,all they need is a license and they're ready to pay for TR,line training and even to work for free for years and speaking frankly,most of them are not worth getting payed.:hmm:

[BetpumpS]

dboyd,

From your post, it seems you are just having a bad day. Could you give a few more details so I could help you with something more specific. Like what aspect of the flying you are struggling with.

I see you have a PPL (did you do that in roughly min hours?). You mention you are in a saught (sic) after TO so are you in an integrated course. Are you struggling with ATPLs or the flying stage?

Honestly, lets have a few more details. PM me if you wish.

[clanger32]

DBoy,
I know you asked for replies from people who now fly the line -so perhaps my reply might not be welcome, as I've finished the training but no job as yet (suprise, suprise given current climate!). However, your note struck a chord with me, so hope you don't mind, but thought I'd offer a few words.

Firstly - other people "breezing through it". I was lucky - or unlucky, depending on your perspective - to have as flying partners two of the bery best pilots on my course. Both seemed to have no difficulty with any aspect of the stuff we were doing, both consistently being rated as '1' pilots. However, one of the things I subsequently discovered is that despite my perception that "EVERYone else was breezing it", actually, very few people found it as easy as these two. In particular this was illustrated by one other student [who was considered excellent] who I flew with once and on the particular (IR training - FNPT2) sortie missed altitude by 200ft about 7 times, 300ft about 3 times and 400ft once. Also came within 10 knots of Vne and busted Vno about 4 times. Oh, and also turned the wrong way for runway in use on the NPA.

At this point, I kinda realised I wasn't as bad as I thought I was. The point here being that very few people actually "breeze" the training. Hardly anyone likes to say "I'm a bit of a crap pilot, actually" so they bluster about and try to make it seem they're doing better than they are.

In response to the negative and self doubting feelings....one big thing for me, when i was first being taught holding, gates, entries etc it was just absolutely gobbledegook for me. But at some point and I don't know when, I actually became ok at it. And I look at the flight test I was asked to do at that point - that seemed like Everest at the time and now know how easy it would be to fly!

What you need is the ability to believe in your own ability again. So what I'd suggest, is ask for an extra lesson. It might cost you - and god knows I know you don't want to spend any extra - but just go back and do stuff you covered 10-15 hours ago in your training. You might be suprised by just how easy you find the stuff that you found very hard at the time....and this might just be the point that breaks the cycle of self doubt. i.e. If you're on the IR phase, just go fly and enter a hold and fly a visual NPA, without worrying too much about the instrument element etc. Go fly some steep turns, or a PFL...but when you realise you CAN do it, it might be the tonic you need.

The other thing, is I'm an old git in comparison to most in flight training. I thought I knew myself quite well going in to the training, but I actually learned so much about myself. For me, I work a lot on confidence and I had a spell where one of my instructors basically totally shot my confidence to pieces. And then - every flight, every little thing that went wrong became a big issue, which screwed the rest of the flight. And each "rubbish flight" became soul destroying, as another flight had come and gone and it got no better.... The key thing, I subsequently discovered (although not to say I completely worked out how to get over it!) is "if you make a mistake, correct it in the air and then forget about it until you're back on the ground". I actually got through my IR because I'd made a couple of little mistakes up front and thought I'd failed it - so just totally relaxed into the flight and did everything else well enough. Very suprised to be given the first time pass back on the ground, but it did drill it in!

My suggestions then:

Go have a night out, get horribly drunk, forget it all and have a laugh, come back to it in a couple of days time relaxed
ASK for an extra flight and revisit earlier skills - you'll be suprised by how much easier you find them than the stuff you're doing now.
Ignore everyone else that says they're "breezing it". They'll have things they find hard that you find easy and vice versa.
Be kinder to yourself. You're learning....you're expected to make mistakes. DON'T let them ruin your flight....a maxim learned from golf of all things....give yourself ten seconds to curse and shout and scream [internally, of course, or your instructor might ask for your medical... :}] and then FORGET IT! Get on with the flight. Do the next thing right. analyse on the ground only.Hope that helps in some ways. PM if you want..

[A340Crazy]

hey dboy...
Im in the middle of my cpl training and have pretty much the same problem as you- a lack of self confidence.
I'v been told by every instructer that i have flown with that i put way too much pressure on myself which makes things worse. The key is not to lower the standard of flying you expect from yourself but to realise that you're not supposed to be flying like an Airline pilot yet (thats why they're training us)

Just enjoy every minute you have in the air and you'll find that with less pressure comes less disappointment which will boost your confidence.

Happy skies mate.

By the way...being an Airline Pilot is just as prestigious as being a Doctor or Lawyer. Besides, the ladies dig us more anyway:cool:

[JB007]

And the ups and downs don't stop when you've finished training. Good days and bad will follow you through every type-rating, line training and your average day on the line. It's something you will get straight in your head with a bit more experience and confidence...

I think we've all been where you are now...

[AvEnthusiast]

Ok guys I'll also try to relax myself a little bit by subscribing to this thread. And see what you have for me. Ok I don't have any problem with my training and as said by instructors I'm good at it and even me I feel comfortable the way I handle the plane. The day before I have been sent for my solo check just before my 15 hours and even some of the maneuvers said by the check pilot were very good but while coming to show him some landings, while descending I couldn't reach the traffic pattern at 1000ft, although got stressed but made a right orbit and tried to enter downwing at 45degrees and 1000ft I just got fixated on altimeter and at one moment I noticed that I'm very close to runway so decided to extend downwind, but really got panic and then made a soon turn and then executed a go around (knowing the whole procedures, and have practices several times) not added full power even told by the check pilot that we need full power for go arounds I confirmed but still didn't add it and then everything was messed up and I couldn't do good landings as well. I know that all those things could be corrected but my problem is that I had always did good at first attempts throughout my life specially studies, and that day when I couldn't reach the pattern at 1000' I said whey couldn't I make it correctly first time and then getting close to runway and then going around and could not land the first time made me panic and messed up every thing. So now the problem is that after one flight with my insturctor doing landings I'm ganna be checked for it again by the check pilot, but now I'm afraid that I'll mess up again because I'm thinking that, that check pilot maybe thinking of me as second chance tryer, while I have always been a first time clearer student then how I messed up in first attempt of the field which I have been loving it crazly. So it really hurts me, I think there is no recover becuase first time passer of other aspects couldn't become first time passer of the thing he liked most in his life. Despite I have the motivation to do it good next time, but still hurts me a little bit.
PS: Although I think this shouldn't be excuse but I had never flown that kind of weather before (gusty for me but not the check pilot)

[Whirlygig]

By the way...being an Airline Pilot is just as prestigious as being a Doctor or Lawyer. Besides, the ladies dig us more anyway
Er ...no it isn't and er... no they don't :} :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

[BetpumpS]

AvEnthusiast,

As usual, utter nonsense. Ever heard of a paragraph?

Curlygig,

If we want to be immature about it (I can't believe I'm even entertaining this conversation BUT).....

Point 1: I think you will find that a pilot is seen as more glamorous than Doctor or Lawyer (lol if only they knew the truth that the Virgin Advert is complete bull).

Point 2: Depends on the pilot!

[clanger32]

The PPRuNe mission statement: No silver lining shall ever go un-clouded.

BetPumpS - I try hard to be avoid being confrontational, but really - AVenthusiasts English might be trying, but (s)he is trying to get some reassurance. There is just no need for your response - no need at all. Remember you too had once never flown and probably had your own crosses to bear.. Particularly since you seem to have got your break in the business by being paid for and given a break by daddy....might therefore be nice to show even just a little humility...

Aventhusiast - Just put it down to a bad day. A pre-solo check flight means ABSOLUTELY nothing in the longer term. Refer to my earlier post....in twenty hours time, you'll find it quite easy. It doesn't matter if it takes you twenty hours or 2 to go solo.... You will have far bigger disasters in your early flight training, so really just accept it as the first of many learning experiences...

[EchoMike]

I'm on the "other" side of the learning environment, as some of you know, I do the ground school at a certain north central Florida JAA FTO which has been mentioned once or twice in these hallowed pages of Pprune (but I digress slightly).

Over the past ten years, I've worked with probably close to 2,000 PPL candidates. The most important thing for *ME* to remember is that everyone learns at a different rate. Some people learn some things quickly, others pick them up a bit more slowly. Tomorrow, the same two people will swap, and they person who breezed through yesterday will be stumped today, and the person who struggled yesterday gets it in a moment.

Fortunately, the classes are usually small, perhaps half a dozen at a time, and that lets me pay attention to EACH student and watch the non-verbal cues from EACH student to see if they are puzzled, confused, bored, (asleep) or - and this is the payoff - experiencing the "AHA!" moment when suddenly everything becomes clear in a flash.

This is most evident when I teach the ARC-1 (or CRP-1 or E-6B). This is not a lecture where I can just drone on like some sort of robotic bulldozer, for this one I have to pay close attention to each and every step for each and every student. I engage in personal, individual conversations during this class because I need to make sure everyone has GOT IT before I move to the next step. This is because everything builds on what came before, and if someone doesn't have the basics, the rest isn't going to happen.

The problem arises when I have one who gets it quickly and one who is rather slower. I have to keep the fast ones from falling asleep while I bring the slower ones along gently so as not to terrify them and put them off completely. It can sometimes be a lot of work and a delicate balancing act, but in the end, everyone gets it and the much-feared ARC-1 is no longer a terror, but a new best friend.

Temporary discouragement is a common problem. When faced with something that just doesn't make sense, the usual and quite human response is avoidance. This immediately creates frustration because it isn't possible to just quit and go home - most people have far too much invested in learning to fly (financially and emotionally) to do that.

Fortunately, we persevere.

There is also a "learning curve". Ideally, it would be a smooth, gentle progression from the first moment ("the pointy end is the front, right?") to the conclusion, when the graduate proudly (and rightfully so) accepts the ATPL and walks around on the swimming pool for an hour or so.

Real world, the learning curve is more like a motocross course. Bumpy. Rocks. Messy. Not straight. Portions seem impassible, have to go around instead. No matter how low your opinion of yourself might be at the moment, I will guarantee that someone out there is struggling more than you are. People are different - that's why Mozart did music and I do airplanes (although I am surely not as good at airplanes as Mozart was at music).

Relax, sleep on it, do something else for an hour or a day, take a break, don't hammer your head against a wall.

But don't give up - anything worth achieving is worth struggling for.

Best Regards,

Echo Mike

[BetpumpS]

Clanger32,

Judging by your posts, you are indeed non confrontational. However I do believe that some of your posts attract a comeback due to what you say.

As you guessed correctly, I did have my own crosses to bear, which is why I offered the opportunity to the OP for a PM.

In terms of AvEnthusiast, his English is actually very good. This can only come about from reading books and other English literary sources so I am sure he has seen how things are constructed hence the non-use of paragraphs is just plain lazy.

"Non confrontational" - hardly when you use the term "daddy". Whilst it was paid for (which is not exactly unusual considering I was 16 when I started my PPL), I'm not sure what you mean by "and given a break". As if he got me my first job via some contact. This was not the case. he merely informed me after reading an article in the newspaper.

[Abagnale]

It doesn't matter if it takes you twenty hours or 2 to go solo.... You will have far bigger disasters in your early flight training, so really just accept it as the first of many learning experiences...

It matters...It shows how fast you can learn...The purpose of any training is to complete it in minimum time required,if you go solo in 20+ hours,than what the :mad: have you been doing? Those who had 50 extra hours and are proud of their first time passes make me laugh...Once again,you don't need any kind of talent to go solo early,all you need is hard work...To achieve something you always need to sacrifice something...If you waste your time,trying to find out who else here is as useless as you are,instead of discussing the problem with your instructor or reading books that might help,or sitting in the a/c on the ground,etc. etc.,then I should admit that flight deck is not the best place for you.:=

[BetpumpS]

Oh put a sock in it Abagnale- you do talk BS.

I'm outta here. See you all on Wednesday to see what other drivel has been written here.

To the OP, on my last flight, I mucked up the approach and basically flew it wishy washy all the way to DH.. It happens. Hows my confidence now? Its fine. How's my pride-bloody bruised? Even experienced guys like me have bad days.

[clanger32]

Abagnale,
Fair comment to some degree....clearly it does say something of your ability if you need 50 extra hours to go solo for the first time...but I would strenuously defend that going first solo at 20 hours means absolutely cock all in the wider scheme of things, as opposed to 15. In the same context, someone who goes first solo at 10 hours as opposed to 15 is not necessarily a better pilot.... For example, I took a whole half hour longer than I should have done to go first solo....does that make me any worse than anyone else, even though I passed CPL/170/IR first time in min hours afterwards?


If you've done 50 hours and STILL not been sent solo, then yes...you hsould perhaps consider whether you should continue pursuing this as anything other than a pastime..

[Abagnale]

2 BetpumpS:

What irritates you so much,my friend?Oh,wait,probably I know...Didn't your daddy kindly pay for your training or maybe even bought you a TR?You got your first job on 737,didn't you?Well,probably you didn't care much about money spent on extra hours,exams,etc. , that's why it's not really important for you...My daddy wasn't so rich as yours and I had to get a degree first,then work for a couple of years to pay for my training,so for me it was very important how I was going to spend hardly earned cash and if i am speaking BS,then please explain what is the main idea of training as you see it...Because what everyone,including you,is trying to prove here - "Don't worry,you will have days much worse than that"- just doesn't suite me right.Of course,we all have up and downs,but a REAL AVIATOR will always try to strive for self perfection and not moan like a lady :hmm:

[clanger32]

And once again the Cb of PPRuNe drifts over the thread that had some glint of positivity in it.....

[Whirlygig]

Betpimp (if you want to be immature regarding names :rolleyes:) - a doctor requires a 5 year course, lawyers at least 4 years. An integrated ATPL course takes a year. As was mentioned before, flying is largely a skill whereas doctors and lawyers require an intellectual capacity.

A pilot may be seen as "glamourous" by those who know no better but that is not the same as "prestigious". Qualified doctors and lawyers tend to have a certain amount of respect for others in their profession and engender encouragement towards those who are training in those professions.

Cheers

Whirls

[TheBeak]

Whirlygig you are absolutely right.

[IrishJetdriver]

Sounds like you're having a bad day. You just need to learn from it, put it behind you, and try again.

I have been flying commercial jets for years, yet not so long ago, I cut in too tight on a visual, got too high and had to go round. Embarassing, yes, dangerous, no. Put it behind me and get it right the next time.

Remember, Aviate, navigate, communicate

And the two golden rules:-

1. Always fly the plane
2. Don't forget Rule 1

Incidentally, sounds like you have your head in the cockpit too much. When my students used to do that I'd cover the main instruments with Posted Notes and make them look out the window. They were usually amazed as to how accurate they could be !! Try it sometime with your instructor.

[redsnail]

Breezed the RPPL (Aus license)
Struggled with the PPL.
Had a bit of a battle with the IR
Breezed the N VFR
Had a battle then changed schools then breezed the CPL.

Battled the Aus ATPLs
Passed the JAA ATPLs (no way would I say breezed them)

Now a jet captain.

So long as your peaks and troughs aren't exceptional, you're fine. Talk to your CFI though.

[Abagnale]

I feel like that's the main reason profession is becoming less and less prestigious

I take my words back :eek:

What do you think the most prestigious occupations and professions are? (http://www.upmeter.com/poll/li/english/pn/rating/q/most-prestigious-occupations-professions/)

[Whirlygig]

A Zimbabwean type poll I see :} Not at all easy to fix is it? :rolleyes:

Cheers

Whirls

[Ollie23]

I notice the poll lists "Telemarketer" as the 10th most prestigious job going!?!?

[Mike12421]

in resume, if you can not be soloed after 15h-20h, forget about this job!!!
some pilots need 30-40-or even 50h....

That's very narrow minded, don't you think. I have no doubt that you’re the greatest pilot the world has ever seen, but if it takes me longer then you, do I just throw in the towel now?

[EchoMike]

It doesn't matter if it takes you twenty hours or 2 to go solo.... You will have far bigger disasters in your early flight training, so really just accept it as the first of many learning experiences...
"It matters...It shows how fast you can learn...The purpose of any training is to complete it in minimum time required,if you go solo in 20+ hours,than what the http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif have you been doing? Those who had 50 extra hours and are proud of their first time passes make me laugh...Once again,you don't need any kind of talent to go solo early,all you need is hard work"

No Abagnale, that's wrong. If you were in my classroom or in my airplane I would rather you learned it RIGHT in preference to boasting about learning it "right now".

In education, it is well known that the newest thing you learned is the first thing you'll forget.

It isn't a speed contest - if your haste encourages you to cut corners, you die. Take the time to do it right. If it takes a little longer, so be it.

As far as the purpose of any training is to complete it as quickly as possible, that is totally wrong. The purpose of any training is to learn the material properly. If it can be done relatively quickly, fine. If it can't be done quickly, that's fine too - the point is not the SPEED but the QUALITY.

(And I find myself agreeing that the Pprune mission statement seems to be making sure there is a cloud for every silver lining . . .)

Best Regards,

Echo Mike

[A340Crazy]

Whirlygig. Here in Australia we study for our ATPL as part of a degree in Aviation which takes us 4 years-with that we graduate with the frozen CASA ATP and +- 200 hours. Just like a Doctor does 5 years theory then 2 years as an intern to get his Medical Licence we have to build our hours up to 1500 which takes roughly 2 years too in order to get our full ATPL. A doctor takes 7 years, doing it my way takes about 6....not much of a difference from my point of view.
I do agree that getting into med school is more difficult than flight school but thats the reason as to why flight school has a higher drop out rate.

Ok, i'm ready to get kicked around now:}

[SilveR5]

Cheer up AvEnthusiast!
You have already started doing better than ever before!!

As many pals have said, the key words here are the positive mindset and high determination.

Being here addressing your worries and concerns is the first positive step :ok:


One of the greatest quotes that honestly has made my life better:

"If you think YOU CAN do it, you will. If you think you can't, then you won't"

It's really amazing when you believe in your abilities no matter how hard the task is. Never be so worried about doing it right from the first time, because "only practice makes perfect". So you better keep thinking of your brain as your magic tool:

1. It can smoothly be ready and calm as soon as you take your seat.
2. It can swiftly adapt and react to any given situation while you fly.
3. It can make your eyes, hands and feet accurately respond whenever you come to execution.
4. It can easily store and retreive the skills you train for.

This is no bull$hit psychological trick. It's all about adjusting your mental power to the level of the challenge! It works for me, and it will work for everybody too!

You might have heard about the law of attraction. As much as you love flying and appreciate the job, you are certainly going to put the extra effort that is needed to excell. Soon after, you will find the AC surrendering to your command!

Best of luck

[AvEnthusiast]

Thanks for your inputs. Sorry gents. I think my post has made this thread a bit arguable, but let's don't get off topic. Bet is right; me myself when I read those kinds of posts I don't get anything out of that. But I was still tensed while writing that post; even I was bombarded the same way with one of my other posts in a thread and it made me to go and read my post once again, and I really laughed at my own post. I couldn't think I was the one writing it; it was like I had an offense. In both threads my english was attacked, now I'm worried about my english and hope haven't used unnecessary punctuations and grammar.:}

[dboydan]

Well... What can I say? I don’t read PPRUNE very often, let alone post on it, but when I started this thread I really didn't expect such an enormous response. I would like to say a big thank you to those of you who have provided me with positive, uplifting encouragement and feedback, virtual pats on the back etc, yes of course I needed that!

I already feel a lot happier with how capable I can be now if I believe in myself more. Believing in ones self seems to be the trend in a number of your posts, and even though deep down I know this is true, I personally have found it hard to think that way, until now.

As for all of the negative feedback, I hope this doesn't come over confrontational, but forgive me if I don’t thank you for that, I did after all only really want to hear from pilots who we're established in a career now, but who had more than the expected amount of problems with training along the way. From this it should have been clear that I was looking for help and reassurance!

By the way, I went solo after about 12-15 hours if I remember correctly so perhaps I have got it in me!

[G SXTY]

I found most of the CPL and IR reasonably straightforward, but I was rubbish at flying a raw-data ILS. Really rubbish, to the point where it became a mindset problem, rather than a lack of flying ability. After a year flying airliners, I'm still rubbish at them, as I proved to myself the other week when I tried one and ended up looking out of the window for inspiration . . .

The good news is that it doesn't matter very much, as 90% of approaches are auto-coupled (the way the company likes it) and on the odd occasion when we do hand fly - usually for practice - it's either fully visual, or an ILS using the flight director. If I'd known that during IR training, I could have saved myself an awful lot of sleepless nights. (And before anyone phones the Daily Mail with a scoop about incompetent airline pilots, I've jumped through quite enough hoops to prove I can safely transport joe public from A to B, thank you very much).

Being an airline pilot is about much, much more than raw flying ability. Being able to function as part of a team, communication, prioritising and managing workload, and not p*ssing off the bloke sat next to you are all at least as important as being able to ace the needles. The vast majority of my colleagues are bloody good at what they do, but that's not because they're brilliant, instinctive stick and rudder pilots. It's because they're professional, conscientious, and put in a lot of effort to stay that way. No-one is perfect, and we all have one or more aspects of our flying that could be improved - that's one of the challenges that keeps the job so fresh. As JB007 pointed out, you'll have good and bad days at the office (and in the sim) throughout your career - it comes with the territory.

Remember that, and you'll appreciate that training difficulties are just part of the learning process. They're not the be-all and and-all that they sometimes appear.

[Rj111]

It matters...It shows how fast you can learn...The purpose of any training is to complete it in minimum time required,if you go solo in 20+ hours,than what the http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif have you been doing? Those who had 50 extra hours and are proud of their first time passes make me laugh...Once again,you don't need any kind of talent to go solo early,all you need is hard work...To achieve something you always need to sacrifice something...If you waste your time,trying to find out who else here is as useless as you are,instead of discussing the problem with your instructor or reading books that might help,or sitting in the a/c on the ground,etc. etc.,then I should admit that flight deck is not the best place for you.:=

Going solo early says far more about your age, your training frequency, your quality of instruction, your local airfield and the attitudes of your school and instructor than it says about your ability to learn fast.

And even then, an ability to learn quickly, is not a measure of your ulitmate capacity. Einstien didn't learn to speak until he was 3.

[Abagnale]

Going solo early says far more about your age, your training frequency, your quality of instruction, your local airfield and the attitudes of your school and instructor than it says about your ability to learn fast.

And even then, an ability to learn quickly, is not a measure of your ulitmate capacity. Einstien didn't learn to speak until he was 3.

Ok,let's take an example.Let's asume that we've got 2 guys starting their training at the same time.One is working hard every day,from early in the morning till late in the evening,waking up with the books and going to bed with them.When the weather permits he's flying listening very attentively to his instructor,always analizing mistakes he makes,trying to improve.He knows everything about the airplane he flies and when the weather is bad,he's just sitting in the cockpit on the ground,studying the checklists,simulating the flight.
Then we've the second fellow.He's not stupid and he dreams of becoming a pilot aswell.But he's studying only what he has to,doesn't ask any questions,he's trying to fly well,but when the flight is over he's rushing back home or to the pub,then he forgets about it very fast.He's not thinking about his training when he's on the ground.
So who do you think will go solo earlier?

[Rj111]

I would say there is little you can do on the groud to speed up your first solo, and that all the factors i meantioned ealier would have a far greater bearing on you time.

[dartagnan]

in resume, if you can not be soloed after 15h-20h, forget about this job!!!
some pilots need 30-40-or even 50h....
That's very narrow minded, don't you think. I have no doubt that you’re the greatest pilot the world has ever seen, but if it takes me longer then you, do I just throw in the towel now?not narrow minded, but it 's an average time I have seen for 16-25 yo pilots.Some need more than 15h, some less. Over 40-50yo, you will need maybe 30-40 hours.
15 hours is an average, after 15 hours, you should be able to make 3 touch and go.

but basically if you reach 70-80h and you are still not soloed after flying everyday , better to give up this job.

[supramkiv]

Whirlygig be fair,

It may not be the same as it used to be (so I hear) but there is still a huge amount of prestige and glamour in the job, especially from the perspective of the salary payers.

I personally am an inexperienced FO for a small jet operator, however the response you get from people you've just met when they ask your occupation is incredible, the way people look and treat you when you walk through an airport to staff security is fantastic.

Lawyers certainly do not get that response, or even for that matter doctor's, regardless of the amount of training they require for their occupation.

You are talking from the perspective of a pilot, but how can you compare it to the training of other occupations, have you been through it?

I have a degree (1:1) in business and marketing and used to be a financial advisor, and believe me flight training was far more stressful, required far more study and was by far more intense. Most people who have completed both a degree outside aviation and have completed flight training would agree, very little comparison.

[A340Crazy]

Supramkiv.

:ok: well said.

[Whirlygig]

Supramkiv,

Er ... yes ... I am a Chartered Accountant which requires a degree (any old degree and mine is Theoretical Physics) and a further three years on-the-job training plus another two to get the Practising Certificate. Exams each year (usually around 6) were for three hours, only 30% multi-guess, the rest being written and if you failed an exam you had to resit all of them (if you kept the job that as most failures got sacked). I hope on that basis, you think I may know a little of what I speak.

Quite simply the hardest thing I've ever done - and my brain was young and fit in those days. ATPL exams, compared to that, were a breeze. Voluminous, but a breeze.

The physical skill of flying I found difficult but then there is nothing comparable within the "professions" since they require intellectual ability only rather than a dextrous skill.

The point I am trying to make is the difference between "glamourous" and "respect and prestige". Whilst nobody, but nobody, is envious of my profession, I am regarded (bizarrely) as a pillar of the community; someone who can counter-sign money-laundering documents, legally sign a set of accounts etc.

In all honesty, most people just consider the $$$ signs when they hear what someone does for a living and that's what adds to the glamour, irrespective of what's required to achieve that position. But I do not think that, academically, a pilot's qualification is even near that of a decent degree.

The original point, (which was a flippant one) and my retort (which was even more flippant until some young thing took umbrage) is that I don't think aviation is prestigious nor, in my case at least, do all women "dig" pilots :rolleyes:

Cheers

Whirls

[Abagnale]

I must agree with Whirlygig here...I've got a degree in computer engineering and ATPL theory is just below any academical level...I'm trying not to tell people that I'm a pilot,though I enjoy every minute of it.And definitely nobody thinks of my profession as a glamorous one ,the usual response is "Don't planes fly on autopilots nowadays?" or "I heard anybody can fly the airplanes" and both seen partially true...If you like it,just enjoy it and don't sell your house to work for Ryanair just to tell everybody that you're a pilot,nobody will respect you.

[A340Crazy]

Whirlygig...(which was even more flippant until some young thing took umbrage)

Meaning what exactly?

Yip, there go my front teeth:} lol

[Whirlygig]

Meaning - I don't want to mention names and allow the discussion to become personal, but, if you read the whole thread, you'll understand that there's no need to be so paranoid. :rolleyes:

Cheers

Whirls

[A340Crazy]

Whirlygig.

Understood. I must be 100% honest though. My views were completely biased and expressed from one point of view only.
I believe also that a disscusion as such will be a never ending debate.
You are right, flying has lost a lot of class and the bar should be raised regarding requirements for acceptance into training orginisations.

My unbiased point of view if i may: the level of theoretical knowledge required is not to the same amount as a Doctor or Lawyer (or many other professions in that case) but, what i believe puts us in the same class as the above is the balance of both the knowledge and the skill required to reach the top of our game. Not many people posess both.

I obviously still have a lot to learn, so no disrespect intended:ok:

Cheers.

[portsharbourflyer]

G-Sxty,

I know you are trying to reassure the original poster, and accepted the chances of the captain having a heart attack and a dual autopilot failure are quite slim, well almost zero, (as well as the your approach been at CAT1 minimas) but if you can't hand fly a raw data ILS you shouldn't be in the RHS.

FLybe are now running an MPL scheme which means at some point you will be a Captain with an MPL trained first officer in the RHS, need I say more.

[corsair]

So who do you think will go solo earlier? Actually abagnale. You can't tell. I would say it depends on the person. I've seen both. I knew a pilot like your number two example. During ground school, he either appeared half asleep or writing to his girlfriend. He passed with 99% and was disappointed with that. He breezed through training like it was a holiday camp and was a superb pilot. I've seen the opposite too. But you are right on one level. If both have the same basic abilities and one applies himself more than the other. There can only be one winner.

I would just re-emphasise to the OP and others from my previous post. Apply yourself and don't be negative, learn from mistakes and move on. Only now at this point in my 'career' where I'm actually considering quitting flying do I realise that I was actually quite good. It was only the circumstances of my training which was difficult and held me back. Couple that with a slight lack of confidence and the doubts began to build. Negativitiy reinforces negativity. Something I would also point out to you here who would paint dark clouds in words on this forum. My own family never helped as they always seemed to believe I was a dreamer.

With hindsight, I now realise I was quite good but my standards were too high. I once aborted a flight test against the protestations of my examiner because I felt I had screwed up already and it wasn't worth continuing. Crazy isn't it? Another time I was so convinced I failed that I was taken aback when he said I passed and almost tried to talk him out of it, almost.:)

It was all in the head. Recently I carried out an approach and landing while describing it in detail to another pilot on the ground over the radio. (Relax it was a private strip not Heathrow.) Later I realised that I had reached a point where I has sufficient spare capacity to make a landing at a difficult strip and talk about it as I did so. I wouldn't have believed it a few years ago. Of course I also had a couple of go arounds lately just to puncture my lately acquired ego.

That's really what I'm saying, don't let it get to you. I nearly did and might have missed out on an interesting few years.

[SilveR5]

It's really great to have words from experienced pilots like you. But I have to argue one point though.

Raw flying ability alone can't make a good pilot of someone who isn't enjoying the positive and challenging mental state, especially at the early stage of learning.

Flying ability and the mental readiness should co-exist together. Both are to generate unconsciously competitive pilots.


Cheers

[BetpumpS]

Abagnale,

Before I left last week I read your post and in the first few sentences, realised it was absolute tripe hence my telling you to "Put a sock in it". I also did not really like the condesending remarks pertaining to "daddy" being rich enough that it didn't matter how long it took me to complete each stage.

That assumption is as useless as you coming here with some new-found authority that allows you to tell anyone that if they haven't gone solo by 20 hours then they should F-off out of the industry. To anyone embarking on a career, or to low hour PPLs, those words would really put them off IMHO. I have never met a pilot with that attitude.

Perhaps the monkier Abagnale is a cryptic clue to tell us exactly what type of 'pilot' you really are...

Lesson 12/13 are the circuits so once they have been mastered and the instructor has confidence in your own confidence and there is less than a knot of wind!- then he/she may put you solo. When I did my PPL, the weather was not brilliant when it came to my solo flight (circa 16 hours). Considering I had already completed a Gliding Scholarship with the Air Cadets including a solo (trust me when you are that young and don't have an engine for go-around, the gliding solo is :mad: scary) I told him I wasn't bothered. We continued with lessons and finally went solo at 22 hours.

To all who read this thread, minium time is not the be-all and end-all. It is called minimum for a reason. Of course it is good to get close to it as possible.

I also think the OP is not wasting time asking others if they had similar difficulties. What real pilots learn is that mentorship and coaching is as important as the actual training.

[Abagnale]

2 Betpumps:
Mate,you might not like me but all I wrote was truth.The difference between me and you is that I earned my way to the flight deck and you simply bought it :E So I think from this point of view I've got more authority,than you,to judge about personal abilities needed to complete the training successfully...I went solo in 11 hours,not the greatest achievement,but I was proud of it,because I deserved it and I never flew anything before manipulating the controls...You wrote that you didn't feel comfortable because the weather wasn't brilliant,now that's an excuse I've heard hundred times before,but I think your instructor was extremely happy about it,so he could earn some extra cash,well done :ok: Now if you think about it,will the instructor send you solo in unacceptable meteorological conditions?No,because he's responsible for your life.So what happened then?I will tell you - lack of confidence - your instructor taught you to fly the airplane,but he hasn't made a real man out of you and I think nobody ever will ;)

[Chesty Morgan]

Whirls if I may.

is that I don't think aviation is prestigious

I think it depends on who is doing the observing.

As for the rest of you. When I fly with F/O's I couldn't care less how they got there. All that matters is that they do the job that they're getting paid for.

If Daddy has paid for you it may not make you a worse pilot than the next person. Conversely it doesn't mean that you're any better. And vice versa for someone who has held down 4 jobs and brought up a family at the same time as completing a flying course. Basically all that means is that (nearly) everything that has happened before you get the job is pretty irrelevant when you fly with me.

So lets all put a sock in it and stop with the oneupmanship school ground bull****.

Everyone, even the pro's, have bad days and worse days. Everyone makes mistakes. The trick, and the sign of a true professional, is to mitigate those mistakes and learn from them. In general I find that the people who don't learn from mistakes are the ones with the I'm better than you attitude. They are the ones who are more likely to end up as a smoking hole in the side of a hill.

[G SXTY]

if you can't hand fly a raw data ILS you shouldn't be in the RHS

You don't say. Maybe I wasn't quite clear enough. I can fly a raw data ILS thank you, otherwise I wouldn't have got anywhere near the right hand seat of an airliner. My personal definition of 'rubbish' is clearly somewhat harsher than the CAA's, as they and my airline were both happy enough with my performance.

My point, which was obviously not well made, was that we all find one or more aspects of flight training difficult, but fixating on them can make things worse rather than better, and that with hindsight they are often not the big issue they appear to be at the time.

Anyway, enough advice from experienced pilots - back to the bitching . . .

[BetpumpS]

Mate,you might not like me but all I wrote was truth.The difference between me and you is that I earned my way to the flight deck and you simply bought it So I think from this point of view I've got more authority,than you,to judge about personal abilities needed to complete the training successfully

I still had to pass my PPL, CPL, IR, ME, ATPLs and TR. So please tell me exactly why and how you have more authority to JUDGE personal abilities?

Does the fact that "daddy" paid for my TR make me less of a pilot?

Abagnale, you are talking bull:mad: of epic proportions. I have read your posts and they cross the line of ridiculous. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Even the pilots I know who trained part time and didn't have "daddy" to help them don't have the arrogance that you have.

Do you have a problem?

[Abagnale]

I still had to pass my PPL, CPL, IR, ME, ATPLs and TR.

Anybody can do it,nothing to be proud of.

Does the fact that "daddy" paid for my TR make me less of a pilot?

It doesn't make you less of a pilot,it makes you less of a man responsible for himself.

Do you have a problem?

Yes,I have.The aviation industry smells very bad nowadays only because of people like you.You cannot judge properly,you just make assumptions.I'm not going to reply to you anymore,because I feel like you're not educated enough for a proper discussion.Cheers :ok:

[Halfwayback]

OK Yellow card being waved at the protaganists above!

Either stick to the thread topic or face a period of silence.

HWB

[portsharbourflyer]

G-Sxty,

Apologises for mis-interpreting your original post.

But thanks for the clarification.

[A340Crazy]

Abagnale

Are you 5 years old?

As far as i'm concerned, how can Betpumps be less of a man responsible for himself if he flies 747's around the world? That alone tells me that he has to be someone who posesses a high level of responsibility firstly for himself and for others.

[Tima84]

I really struggle with training! I had 2 flights back to back today and could not get a grip of slow flight, power on, power off stalls. We should have moved to other excercises today, but we did not, because I can't do the ones before. More mistakes I make more nervous I get.
Today my instructor told me that I am the most challenge that he has had ever.
Everybody keeps on telling me that the skill will come to me with time, though my friend that started at the same time as I did already passed all of the excercices in 3 flights with the same instructor.
That is just so frustrating!!!

[A340Crazy]

Tima84

Try not to compare your progress with others, i know thats difficult but you'll find that most instructors will tell you that different students progress through stages of their training faster than others. Maybe chat with another instructor about what you're battling with.
When i find some parts of my training difficult to grasp i get the books out and study the theory behind it, just to get the bigger picture in mind.

Hope this helps..Good luck.

[Tima84]

Thanks for help.
I did slow flight today and did it really good. My stalls were better not perfect, but better.
I did compare myself to others, but my instructor also tells me that I am the slowest he's had, which is not very encouraging. Today, though, he told me that I am getting better.

Also, I have trobule to listening to ATC and replying back. I started to listen to liveatc online, but I dont know how it will help, I really dont understand what they say, because it is so fast. I can speak english on a normal level for an internation student, but ATC is just too fast.

Anyways, I feel way better today. Thanks for your support!

[benish]

Tima84, Have you got flightsim? check out vatsim on google and try get on flightsim flying online, there you can pick up a bit of atc knowledge, you could do an R/T course too.
secondly, i know your instructor is trying to help and hes telling you what he thinks, but ask yourself if hes the right instructor for you. when your low on confidence and he tells you that your slow and the biggest challenge, will that really help you?

Im in Florida at the minute, at first I found it slightly hard to grasp the way my instructor taught me, it felt like he wasnt really guiding me in the way i expected. Then I had a change of instructor cos he the other guy was off. I settled right down and he helped me understand my errors and taught me through the steps. Im now back with the original guy, who is the CFI, he has fine tuned my ability, if you like, and I feel fine with him now. I can tell sometimes hes not impressed, but he wont tell me, in fact today I did a Prog check and thought I did crap, I expected him to tell me so, but he said I could bust you but I wont as I know you can improe it next time. Thats what instructors should do, he knew my confidence was at breaking point but he kept me up, hell never tell me Im bad, hell just tell me we learn it till you know it, and what ever you spend, you spend. Just remember, and this goes to anyone with money doubts or doubts about taking longer than others, another lesson to 'fine tune' something may cost more money, but you want to be a safe and effiecient pilot, you have to learn the basics and get them right. Theres no point half accepting something and moving on if youll only fail at it later.

Good luck

[benish]

What I don't understand is why nowadays anybody without any educational background can easily become a pilot?All you need is money,that's it,you can have 300 extra hours but you will still get the license.I feel like that's the main reason profession is becoming less and less prestigious with the average salary declining every year...Just think about it-not everybody can become a doctor,a lawyer,an engineer,because you need certain personal qualities and abilities to do those jobs,but many young pilots I work with nowadays are actually quite shocking...My point is there should be some kind of selection progress,probably govermental control,FTOs do not really care if you're going to kill 300 people the day after tommorrow,all they want is your money....And what do you want to hear?Something like-don't worry,everybody is been struggling throught the training,you'll be flying 737s anyway...No,that's not the case,I would say you should just take your training more seriously and WORK HARDER

If there's ever been a reason to agree with the majority of pilots I know, who think pprune is sad and negative, its that post and the rest of your posts in this topic. What ever happened to helpful advice? The airlines obviosly decided they dont need people with degrees anymore, the governemt didnt have a say, so therefore it must be seen as acceptable, which therefore means that they believe there is no lack of safety. A degree in accountancy means diddly sqwot to some recruiter. If you have the ability to fly, an fATPL then why cant you fly! Trade workers arent exactly special in the brain department but they are emplyed to do the job they have been trained in, and skilled to do.


Quote:
I still had to pass my PPL, CPL, IR, ME, ATPLs and TR.
Anybody can do it,nothing to be proud of.That suggests to me your not proud of your achievement. Lighten up.


Quote:
Does the fact that "daddy" paid for my TR make me less of a pilot?
It doesn't make you less of a pilot,it makes you less of a man responsible for himself.
So what someone had the training paid for, who knows he may owe that money back. But in this economy its a nice thing, if your parents are willing to help and want to SUPPORT there child then so be it, saves them interest at a bank.


Quote:
Do you have a problem?
Yes,I have.The aviation industry smells very bad nowadays only because of people like you.You cannot judge properly,you just make assumptions.I'm not going to reply to you anymore,because I feel like you're not educated enough for a proper discussion.CheersBacks up my first point.

The difference between me and you is that I earned my way to the flight deck and you simply bought it http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif So I think from this point of view I've got more authority,than you,to judge about personal abilities needed to complete the training successfullyWhy? Whether it was given to someone on a plate or not, why does that mean they cant judge how to successfully become a pilot? They still went through the training and experienced it didnt they? Or did daddy just wave a magic wand and put them in the RHS?

your instructor taught you to fly the airplane,but he hasn't made a real man out of you and I think nobody ever willShameful

[Tima84]

benish, thanks a lot.

I am in Melbourne, a little south from where you are.

[Matt101]

Abagnale,

Okay so the degree or not debate goes on elsewhere but I hadn't heard the spin before that having a degree actually makes you a better pilot.

Would the ability to assess and compare a set of prose make me a better pilot? Would a knowledge of early 20th century literature make me a better pilot? Would an understanding of the reasons behind the Vietnam war make me a better pilot? Do you see what I am getting at? - a degree can be a useful thing in life - it opens many doors for people in the employment world and can provide solid experience in dealing with life, but it is not the only way to achieve these qualities and it is certainly not a pre requisite for being a good pilot.

I would encourage most people who have the opportunity to go to university but only because the aviation sector is so volatile and a back up is always a good idea.

My background: I completed my A-levels and attended university but found that the experience was not what I was looking for (despite going to a top 5 Russell group university), I took the credit I had earned so far and am completing my degree through the OU now. I wanted to get on the earn so I could start the expensive training for the job I really wanted. My (work in progress) degree so far has not really helped me to become a better pilot.

No daddy didn't pay for me to do the integrated ATPL, the airline I work for stumped up the cash after I performed well at selection and continue to do extremely well in all aspects of my training. I consider myself very lucky but also worthy having worked hard and having a decent level of aptitude for the job of my dreams. Not having a degree makes me no less deserving.

Not anybody can do this job. Not everybody has the aptitude, nor the will, nor the determination. That's what would be pilots require. Not a BA in Life Studies.

Life experience for me came after 3 years working in an airline and 2 years as a MIS Supervisor. All the time saving and waiting for the chance to do the dream job. I am so sorry that my presence on the Pilot scene detracts from your prestigious position in life.

Oh and to the original OP - chin up we all find some bits hard work, you just have to work hard at them and eventually something will click - the nature of the work means that we set ourselves high limits. Even if I score well in a flying or ground school test if I feel I did badly the actual result can be meaningless, the answer to this is to give yourself a break and enjoy the training!

[Desk-pilot]

I think you should consider a change of instructor to someone who you find more supportive.

Yes, I found the IR phase difficult, often very difficult and spent several sleepless nights thinking I wouldn't be able to crack it but got there and so will you.

Finally, I decided to blow about £1000 during the IR phase on a serious home flight-sim to run Microsoft Flight Simulator. I would strongly urge you to consider this if you possibly can (it was the only bit of my flight training that my parents helped with but it meant I could practice things at home. The most important bit was buying a really good yoke - I bought a Precision Flight controls jetliner column yoke and twin prop throttle quadrant system (see Precision Flight Controls,Inc.Flight Simulation,Flight Training Devices (http://www.flypfc.com)) I also invested in a nav stack from Goflight (GoFlight, Inc.® Factory Direct (http://www.goflightinc.com)) and used some old cheap rudder pedals I had lying around. I bought the best Seneca for FS2004 I could find and found it a great help as it enabled me to run checklists, practice holds, fly routes and combine it with online ATC on VATSIM. It's miles better than armchair flying and far cheaper than even a few extra twin hours plus you can easily use it throughout your career.

Best investment I ever made...

Good luck,

Desk-pilot