Expat Captains in SIA..!!

[King on a Wing]

Hi,
I'm an expat captain in SIA.And the purpose of this thread is to get as many of us together under a single forum so as to positively identify the employement issues which directly affect our daily lives today and those that are SURE to affect our lives in the very near future.
A couple of days ago,we were informed by management that compulsory no paid leave was inevitable.So as to avoid any retrenchments.We have also been told somewhere along the line that the first to go(read 'retrenched')would obviously be the expat captain,followed by the PR captain and then(IF required)the local captain! Now here's the tricky part.What's on the table right now from the mamnagment is 3 days Cnpl for ALL captains.This, to a great degree, pushes the prospects of retrenchments(in the order stated above)back by a whole lot of weeks/months.Numbers aren't very important here,but 3 days Cnpl per captain reduces the chances of retrenchments for all the others by a very very large percent.This....as per Capt.GY(SVP) himself.I for one would take the Cnpl hands down if it reduces my chances of getting the pink slip.
Now comes the fun part.Our union,ALPA-S seems to think otherwise.That is,if line pilots take 3 days Cnpl,then the additional "left over" hours would be split amongst who else but the managment.Effectively,making a gain for the managment at the cost of the line pilot.With this very weak argument,it seems they've managed to get some kind of a critical mass to back up this hypothesis.Here's what really will happen.....we refuse Cnpl,retrenchments begin(with expats to go first!),50-80% expat pilots are retrenched, which looks after the 200 odd surplus pilots at present and who do we have left home free to share the bonuses when the company does better....???!! The locals and the PR's who ironically,are currently running the show at ALPA-S anyways.That also makes room for "further talks"on wage negs with managment later,since 'we from Alpa were oh sooo helpful during your time of crisis!' Just a small detail here.Our expat bretheren aren't here to share the bonuses nor the wage hikes we're getting.Why...??? CAUSE YOU FIRED THEM LAH........!!!!
Now that's how my little mind reads the writing on the wall la.Anybody(especially genuine expat captains),with ANY other input,please feel free to pool in.We have another meet with Capt GY tomorrow,followed by a "Makan" session immediately after, from ALPA-S,in order to discuss the Cnpl(which is sure as fire going to be tabled by GY tomorrow).Why do I have this sick feeling in my gut that our Alpa secretary/president are gonna wholly and soully oppose this move by managment and 'convince' our colleagues that this Cnpl is absolutely NOT the right way to go.....:ugh::ugh::ugh:.
And then the expat heads will roll.What say ye all yonder.All expat(and otherwise)inputs welcome.....
And the swine flu hasn't helped either.
My two krunos worth...:)

[Balthazar_777]

It definitely different than all the times before. That's for sure.

Smart locals understand that whilst expats are around our pay package stays international - despite the racial, jealous nonsense that sometimes seems to be the norm.

However, i see that management is panicking - quite obviously so. What scares me is that we are still making money, so the panic is political.

And in Singapore, when politics is involved - anything goes.

I think we are seeing the benevolence in the benevolent dictatorship becoming less benevolent. (sorry for the tongue twister)

Sigh.

[King on a Wing]

And all this when the SIA group has posted a profit of just over a billion dollars for the last fiscal.Imagine the apathy IF the profits.......GOD FORBID turn to a loss........!!!!
I would tend to agree with u wholeheartedly Balthazar.
The ONLY way the local pilots can continually keep raking in their current(otherwise unsustainable)payrolls is by 'quote the expat'.Its not far in the future that i can forsee a SIA minus all expats and the managment with the ALPA-S secretary's balls in his left and right pockets! With the cliched...."u're next buddy.Now take the pay cut or take the door...." :} .

[skycatz]

The current SVP at SIA is the most useless, spineless, lack of leadership SVP that SIA has ever had in its history.

[fatbus]

? from an outsider - what is a PR?
Did you guys not do the NPL surring SARS?

[777vs330]

skycatzSia Svp
The current SVP at SIA is the most useless, spineless, lack of leadership SVP that SIA has ever had in its history.

:DAbsolutely 100% concurred. Evidence? If only you have attended the dialogue session he just conducted for the boys.

Now back to the topic.
King on the wing.
The way I see it, you're not in the company long enough to even smell what's coming. Gerald Y wants you to think CNPL is necessary, if you agree, why stop at 3? Why not 6? 10 is even better, that way we all will have our jobs for sure for next 10years? You know what, why don't all of us expats in SQ, come up and offer 10days CNPL each in return for our jobs, let's see what will they say shall we??

Here's what's factual. Regardless of the ALPAS position, which I seriously wont give a hood about. I know for the fact that they will continue to NOT renew the expats contract. Try asking the top performing expat captain who scored big time by fuel saving suggestion (mentioned somewhere on other thread as well), saves the company by the MILLIONS/Year, and his contract? NOT RENEWED.
If there's anything to it, flight ops is trying to push this down by imposing fear amongst its pilots. I sure know what GY & the gang want, they want to keep the pilots, at the reduced cost so that they achieve the KPI they need for their managerial bonoses/renewal. Don't be fooled, look around more intently and observe with shrewd sense. They will do what they WANT to do, not what is needed to be done.

To prove it, my own local sources tell me that there have been so many forthcoming suggestions on how more flexible no payleave scheme (Eg. Shorter work month with more no pay leave supplementing offdays for those interested) could be further explored. And guess what? Again you'd get your answers from the dialogue session. HE IS NOT INTERESTED. He wants you to go on HIS PLAN, not yours. His frivolous response made you wonder how on earth did he even get the job as SVP in the first place. There was no attempt, and even a pretended one, to consider some of the very good and relevant suggestions from the floor.

It's indeed a sad era now in SIA, that the pilots have to be convinced that when the company is doing fine, we have to take the cut to sustain profitability. Swine flu is mentioned, by our beloved flt ops. Not for highlighting the care for the frontline crew health safety, but for the bottom-line of company with an opportune and timely plea to accept the proposed CNPL. Only after someone wrote a critical comment to highlight the screw up, they promptly re-issued another one, please, go search the order of the circulars issued to further verify their trend of thoughts and mindset.

Lastly, try read the book "who moved my cheese?". It's really a short and nice read. Should have been more prepared as an expat. As I certainly do. My contract renewal is coming up next year, the way I see it: NO :mad: chance!!

[perantau]

True colours show when one is desperate. Blame one & all, everyone but me, so long as I can breath a little easier, stay a little longer.

So ALPA-S is the culprit now.

The trouble with trying to be reasonable and hold the middle ground is that it pleases no one entirely. Yet that ALPA-S must do, for other recourse are limited, and far from effective. A formality mediation at MOM, to more “take it or leave it” response & procrastination by Management, eventually to the IAC or the Istana – how else can they handle it but to take a stand that is as reasonable and fair to ALL pilots as possible? When the Establishment, the spins & public opinion aren't exactly sympathetic, can we at least hope for unity amongst ourselves?

Just because they are not inclined to bow to unreasonable ultimatums does not mean ALPA-S is racist or parochial, KoaW. As a (persumably) experienced expatriate, I'm sure if ALPA-S and your local colleagues are so intolerable, you would have no problem being hired elsewhere. And surely, this not being your first job, you would know if you have been treated fairly in SIN as well as other places you've been to. By fair, I mean not God-like or red-carpet treatment some tend to think as their birthright.

It is very distressing to have our jobs put on the line, what with mortgages, alimonies and kids to put through college. But please, spare a thought to those folks in similar circumstance, who've volunteered to be in unenviable & thankless positions.

[King on a Wing]

perantau,
I can clearly see from your post that you are alpa-s managment.Nevertheless let us not get biased here.
Quote:
"It is very distressing to have our jobs put on the line, what with mortgages, alimonies and kids to put through college."
And YES. It IS very distressing to have our jobs put on the line what with mortgages,alimonies and kids to put through college!! Yes,you're darn right about that.What ELSE do you work for i'd like to know.The slot machines as the sports club? For that matter what else does ANYBODY work for! You've pretty much covered all bases here perantau.
Then you go on to make an even sillier statment:
" But please, spare a thought to those folks in similar circumstance, who've volunteered to be in unenviable & thankless positions."
Which moron in his right mind would do what you just stated,unless he a) Had a better job up his sleeve or b) Is Mother teresa's step son(didn't say son cause she obviously was a nun,may god rest her soul!).
I mean.....ARE YOU JOKING OR WHAT.....??!! One has a perfectly decent job all these years,and one fine day just like a bolt out of the blue someone from managment asks u to take say 6 months off without pay with your kids in college,mortgages to pay and alimonies to make(in your own words).And you sheepishly comply without even a wimper.Come on,grow a beard man.Name me ONE pilot who's done that...:=.
So, what you tried for was unsolicited sympathy.Don't ever try it again.NOBODY volunteers for suicide.Unless there's something to gain!
And nobody has!
And P.S-Nobody's desperate here.Nor does anybody here have an hidden agendas.Its all in the open.So please don't mask the real topic at hand.Your valuable contributions,however are appreciated.

[millerscourt]

fatbus PR = Permanent Resident. Usually Malaysians in SIA.

Permanent as in as long as you keep your nose clean and stay out of Alpha-S politics and don't stir up the troops to revolt.

[etops777]

PR= after some years you can renounce the citizenship of your origin and become a Singaporean.

[linksys]

Welcome to SIA, you lot...

Did u think anyone gives any hoot to any employees???

hah!.... lets blame the EVP that is barking like dog to get his 3/4day CNPL.

EVP HR was the one who is sacking all the expats he personally hates...

So.... let the blood shed begin.

LEt this be a painful reminder to all EXPATS who wish to join SQ.....
Whole Co is run by the Devil and his minions... and they WILL burn everyone
eventually.

:ok:

[King on a Wing]

links,
Sorry to burst ur bubble.But its not always the management that's to blame.Two sides to every coin remember..

[a345xxx]

Hi King On A Wing,

Could you provide a solution to the problem......?

A lot of you guys are coming over to QR why don't you?:ok:

[King on a Wing]

a345,
You claim to be from singapore and you use the term "coming over to QR".
You obviously are one of those who's "gone over" to QR.
When you go to a supermarket do you buy everything on the shelves just because it's on sale? No,you buy just what you want right. If we are unable to resolve things in our own backyards,what makes you think that we could do any better abroad in the desert.Just something to think about.Lets try and do some housekeeping in our own backyards first before we commence a migration shall we.There's no ONE solution.Thats why this post!

[weido_salt]

Expat on a contract? Then that's is all you are, a contractor and expendable, period.

I have been an expat for nearly 35 years and realised very early on you are first out, when there is a surplus.

I do wish you all well for the future, however, welcome to the real world, as some of us have been living with the threat of redundancies for decades.

We are all in an unstable business and nothing lasts forever. NOTHING. Get used to it.

In my time as an expat, I have never contemplated selling out my birth right and never will.

[a345xxx]

Ok then give it to us.... the solutions.....what is your multi prong stratergy that you are proposing..... honestly... i think we all want to hear it...more importantly i think the expats and the locals in SQ need to hear it.

[linksys]

It's always sad when we see a person in denial of the facts of life as an expat.

Seen many since the A310 days till now.

"All dragged screaming and cursing out the door" filled with contempt and hatred.

But, fear not, expats will always find some where to land eventually.

Of course, good luck handling the alimonies and wives at the same time...
:ok:

[linksys]

30 April 2009
Dear Colleagues,

NEWSLETTER

“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.” - Abraham Lincoln (attributed) 16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

SHORTER WORK MONTH
The Company has stated on numerous occasions that this Shorter Work Month (SWM) scheme is not about cutting costs. In fact, the company has made it possible for Managers and Admin Officers to take either one-day CNPL or one day annual leave. If the objective is not cost cutting, then it does not gel with asking anyone to take one day of CNPL, let alone 3 and 4 days of CNPL. Doesn’t the company understand that CNPL means NO-PAY? If the company is really not interested in the money saved by NOT PAYING us then WHO, is the beneficiary of the money saved by NOT PAYING us.
Well, at least one member of management, in the form of EVP HRP, was honest enough to state that the company “did not want to bear the burden of the cost of the excess pilots”. At the MOM, when this was stated, the EVP proudly stated how the pilot numbers have grown over the years, at a higher rate than that of other staff. The Association had to remind him that the growth in pilot numbers was deliberately planned by management in anticipation of airline growth.

Hindsight is perfect and no one, including the Association, is blaming the Management for the downturn and the resultant excess situation. But really, is this the way to show “Concern for Staff”, by expecting the staff to bear the cost of excess resources. Instead of asking all staff to stand united and bite the bullet together, in this downturn, the company has resorted to dividing the staff and apportioning responsibility for the consequences of this downturn.
The Association’s position has been simple. We will gladly participate in the SWM scheme offered to Managers and Admin Officers on the very SAME terms. We are willing to do this, to show solidarity, because it is important in this downturn to demonstrate unity. If however the
company needs any particular group of employees to chip in more than the other staff, then the company must be willing to make restitution, should the company remain profitable(after accounting for the monies saved through the excess CNPL). For some strange reason, this world class management is unable to see the fairness of that proposal, instead insisting on 3 days and 4 days of CNPL for the pilots. The Company has REFUSED to negotiate on this.


HOW MUCH?
How much does the company save by imposing 3 days and 4 days of CNPL? Based on figures and information provided by the company, there are 914 Captains and 942 First Officers. At the MOM meeting on 23 April 09, the Company stated that there was an excess of 75 Captains and 127 First Officers. Using an average salary of $13297 for Captains and $6882 for First Officers, the 3 days and 4 days CNPL will translate to a savings of $13,368,804 for Captains and $9,508,171 for First Officers. This results in a total of savings of $22,876,975 in the financial year 09/10. Yes, that’s almost 23 MILLION.

What is the carrying cost of the excess crew? Using the same average salary, mentioned above, for the full financial year 09/10, it would result in a cost of $12,964,575 for the 75 Captains and $11,362,182 for the 127 First Officers. So while it would cost the company $24,326,757 to carry this excess crew, the company is now expecting the pilots to support $22,876,975 of this cost by taking 3 days and 4 days CNPL.
Is this fair? What next? Are they going to now ask the Planners who did the fuel hedging at higher prices to bear the losses? Are they going to ask the managers who ran unprofitable stations to pay for the losses incurred? Are they going to ask the Cargo pilots to make up for the losses incurred in their cargo operations? Is this is how Management has chosen to “reward” staff who have faithfully done their bidding?
We are all one Company. Despite many attempts to divide and rule by creating separate legal entities, the fact remains that we are all, in reality, one Company. Each member of this family, fairly motivated to play his part, is essential for the success of the company, and especially so to pull the company through this downturn. Instead, this enlightened management has resorted to sowing the seeds of discord, division and mistrust.


MONEY NO ENOUGH!!!
The Company has already saved money by denying the pilots the SI for 2009. This was despite the fact that proposals for the 2009 SI were made to Management, before any other union. No doubt the Association’s proposal was rejected, but when management was repeatedly pressed for a counter proposal, all management could respond to was that it was working on it. Yes, management was working on it alright.
Despite numerous reminders, no counter-proposal from the company was forth-coming, until, when pressed again at the Union-Management meeting on 17 Feb 09, Management’s lame reply was that it was too late – the proverbial horse had long bolted when it was decided more than a month before in mid-January that a wage freeze was to be implemented.
Behind our backs, while telling us to wait patiently, management went ahead, negotiated and concluded SI agreements with the other unions in the group in mid January 2009.

This is subterfuge by HR against a member of the SIA family. It makes a mockery of the Core Values, and the Team Spirit and all the other often heard clichés. Management’s intention has become crystal clear – Divide and Rule. How can employees have confidence and trust in a Management that resorts to such underhanded measures. Where is the Integrity? Where is the Honour?

By the way, even if we assume a lower SI for 2009 than 2008, the money that the company has deprived us is not just one year’s SI. Rather, it is that quantum per month compounded for the entire length of your career in the Company.

Just to give you a flavour of the amount, assume for example that the SI for 2009 for Captains was $300. Then, one Captain would have lost $3900 per year. If the Captain only had 10 years left to work, he would have lost a total of $39000(without considering compounding). Given that I have used a conservative SI, for the 914 Captains that we have, the SI lost for 10 years is $35,646,000. This is a very conservative computation and only for Captains. Hasn’t that saved the company enough to carry the cost of the excess Captains and First Officers? If you include the amount lost by First Officers, wouldn’t the total sum saved be enough to cover the excess crew and ensure that NO ONE NEEDS TO BE LET GO? WHY IS THIS MANAGEMENT OBLIVIOUS TO THIS FACT?

What about the money saved by not paying us our share of the bonus on the AVC in 2008? What about the money saved by not paying us 70 hours PPA, because of the downturn? What about the money saved by not paying LMA as a result of the reduction in services and layovers? Need we say more?
Management has let go of experienced crew, purely because their contract was up for renewal.
Yet, it was willing to retain new hires, simply because they were just hired and still had time in their contract. As management has admitted, when they recruited these new expatriates they didn’t expect the downturn. Well, quite honestly, except perhaps for those select bankers, halfway across the globe, nobody could envisage the tsunami that was coming. Yet, management, in not renewing pilot contracts in this manner, is not only disregarding international best practices, but is sending the wrong message to pilots worldwide.



WHAT ABOUT MVC?
Not too long ago, a wage cut was initiated with restitution provisions. This was then translated to MVC and AVC. Eventually, we were left with an MVC agreement incorporated in our CA.

If management is so bent on honouring contracts, then lets honour the MVC agreement that was painstakingly crafted after much angst in the shadow of SARS. Then, during SARS, we were told that the company was bleeding $6 million a day. Today, before the MVC agreement can be invoked, management is now talking about pre-emptive measures to remain profitable. There is nothing wrong with that, but then, why the reluctance to make restitution when we ARE profitable?



PILOTS PROPOSAL REJECTED
At the MOM on 23rd April 09, the company rejected the Association’s offer to join in solidarity and participate in the SWM on the same terms as the Managers and Administrative Officers. The ministry proposed, that the Association consider implementing one day of CNPL per month and continue negotiations on the other days demanded by the company. This had to be deliberated by the Executive Council.
The Executive Council met for an extra-ordinary session on 30th April 2009 and deliberated the Ministry’s proposal.



DECISION
While it was felt that it was grossly unfair of the Company to single out the pilots for such special discrimination, the Executive Council also feels the need to demonstrate solidarity in the
Company. The Executive Council has therefore decided to accept the Ministry’s proposal for one day of CNPL per month.
Even though this is not the same as the SWM offered to the Managers and the Admininstrative Officers, the Executive Council feels that this one day CNPL is the closest equivalent to the SWM offered to the other staff. Going forward, we are willing to explore with the company and exhaust all reasonable and fair means of dealing with the cost issues.


EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

[a345xxx]

All I can say to that statement is WOW! Please King we are waiting for your response at least to the official statement!:ok:

[mikeparam]

I second linksys's uploading of Alpa-S newsletter since the actual situation may not be portrayed accurately by the originator of this thread. Here are the undisputable facts:

There are MORE excess in FOs than Capts right now. Most of the FOs are on local (non-expat contract) terms. Therefore they (the FOs) are the majority group who will be affected if there's going to be a retrechment. They are fully represented by Alpa-S w.r.t the negotiation on CNPL & potential retrenchment.

The above newsletter seems to be available for viewing & downloading by ANY members of the public (at least for now!!!) at ALPA-S homepage (http://www.alpas.org)

[parabellum]

linksys - I was there for just about the entire life of the A310 and apart from a very few exceptions, usually due to personal reasons, all the expats finished up on the 744, so not too much:


Seen many since the A310 days till now.

"All dragged screaming and cursing out the door" filled with contempt and hatred.
there then?

And I think that you will find the 'contempt and hatred' you talk about is in your mind!

[linksys]

Perhaps! old wise one

[Flaperon777]

Hey guys,
Correct me if i'm wrong here,but didn't the Sia managment agree to the pilots getting one day Cnpl instead of the 3-4 days on the table.So what're you fellows cribbing about...?? Its a win win for both parties involved.The managment gets to cut its costs to a certain degree and the pilots get a relief(albiet temporary)from retrenchments.Whilst simultaneously being given the opportunity to chip into the company's coffers and help out when times are bad and whilst they can! Cause they ARE bad.So lets please help out with our two pence while we can,and not make complete clowns of ourselves in the process.
THOSE will be the ONLY memories that people will have of us pilots in better times.Those of the flyboys "who helped out in bad times!" So lets do our bit(s),and close our eyes thereafter.Cribbing only bitters the taste whilst lightening your pockets at the very same time.
Kind of a catch 22 situation,don't you think.
No point cribbing if u wanna help,and no point helping if u wanna crib!
Cheers now.
O & O

[DoMePlease]

To OP:

So when times are good, expats get better benefits than the locals.

And when times are bad, you're suggesting we all share the load equally?

That doesn't right. That doesn't sound fair.

[AirSlimer]

Flaperon, Read posting #18 by linksys in detail. Didn't you get the picture!

[slayerdude]

expat vs locals....
it's a contractual difference..... nothing to do with nationality or race

PR=permanent residence(any nationality) of course on local terms!!!!

Local terms= includes mutiple nationalities and races( no restrictions)

the solution WAS simple... if one needed stability and the last to go option..... should have joined on local terms.... too much drama from the KING

One has to accept the liabilities working on an expat contract... it very clear and simple." We don't need you, you go" vice versa!!!!!

[Capt Roo]

The economic crisis and now H1N1 - sadly I think that we are seeing the beginning of the end of Full Service airlines and the good T&Cs that come with them. The likes of Jetstar, Tiger, Ryanair and Easy etc are the sad future.

Having worked in Aus and FE most of my adult life, I have benefited more then most. Hope I can see out my days where I am now.

My heart goes out to my many friends (both expat and non) in SIA. Hope this all works out for you guys.

Thankfully none of my children and professional pilots. We will go the way of the engine drivers soon. :sad:

[AlienO]

Flaperon
Correct me if i'm wrong here,but didn't the Sia managment agree to the pilots getting one day Cnpl instead of the 3-4 days on the table.So what're you fellows cribbing about...??

1 day compulsory no pay leave is not the final deal. It is an INTERIM agreement.

Interim because without a deal with the pilots, any scheme that SIA has concluded with the other unions under the SIA umbrella cannot be implemented. There is a conditional undertaking by SIA not to implement any schemes till all unions has agreed upon something. So, everything hinged on the pilot's union coming to terms with the company.

The pilot's union has been given an ultimatum by management to agree to the 3/4 days CNPL or else......!!! More is yet to come!!

Don't be surprised if locals/PR also end up on the retrenchment list!!!

[greybeard]

Wake up!!!
All SIA care about is the shareholders, any less profit than the previous year/time frame is a LOSS, yes a LOSS in the thinking of that part of the world.
I was terminated during the SARS debarcle, standing in the crew room on a phone after a flight. Needed to be told as I was departing on leave in a couple of hours and they were worried I would escape and have a longer 90 days notice than the others.
At a pilot meeting later that month, 04/03, the similar retrencments were mooted and the CRM self appointed head of such immediately stood and said, O'seas expats are to go, then S'pore based expats before ANY 'local' was to be disadvantaged.
Expats are tollerated at best in so many ways not only in SIA but all over the world, can't do without you, need to pay you more in allowances etc etc.
The only slight edge is that as said above it may well hold up the so called base wage line as that is the same as a local and as the CPF has long gone and housing has all but been removed the jobs are the next saving available.

There are some really good people in SIA, few and at times well hidden for their own protection I sometimes felt, but the nasty ones REALLY are a class above all others.

There is a life beyond SIA, I actually miss Singapore and returned there for another Aviation position for 18 months, but the same deal is always profit before all else.
I guess you have to go with the flow, good luck to all that are for the bad news

[King on a Wing]

Can anybody here throw some light here on HOW the expat is making soo much more money than the local.
He uproots his kids from their original schools in their hometown and pays large donations(read bribes to the tune of 50k),heavy deposits(to the tune of 10k) and gets them into a school of choice.
The company reimburses the 'tution fees'(0.7k).
Now he sells his house(s) in his town of origin.And then he sells his car(s). And pays upwards of 5.5-6k PM for a half decent accomodation on the east coast of singapore.And all this is for something ON RENT.Whilst having shelled out 2-3 months rental towards 'deposit' for the same apartment!
So all in all he has shelled out about 60k(bond)+50k minimum(donations)+15k(deposit)+5k(1st month's rent)+10k(kids deposits on schools)+10k(towards misc moving that company DOESN'T cover)...!!!
So now our expat is very suddenly short of 150k+.....and all this BEFORE HAVING shifted completely into the city....!! And for schoolin for ONE child ONLY....!!(just imagine the empathy of a 1+ child household!!)
Now he has his kids in a school but no ride to take them around! Another 150k minimum for a set of wheels to get u around!
YOU do the math.Do u really think the expat is getting paid more than the local...????!!!??
Hmmm.....NO...!!!!:=:=:=
The biggest of lies are those best masked.This is one of those.
One HUGE lie or (maybe) a misconception.
Now @ Airslimer/Slayerdude/Alieno...
It surprises me....nay humours me, that u guys are all talking the union babble and ALL OF YOU HAVE LESS THAN 2 POSTS TO TALK FOR.....:ugh:
Says something about your credentials doesn't it.....
Now off to my forced annual leave...

[overmars]

An expat does get paid more than a local. Compare the paychecks and the maths won't lie.

[James' Bro]

large donations(read bribes to the tune of 50k)

Wing King...... now you got me all worked up.... BRIBE?! Wait until the SIN authorities find out which school ask for these "donations"...:(

...and the hoops you have to go thru' in your village to get to this city..... I thought only laborers from a certain South Asian country does that !

[King on a Wing]

QUOTE...:
JAMES BRO,

"Wing King...... now you got me all worked up.... BRIBE?! Wait until the SIN authorities find out which school ask for these "donations"...http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/sowee.gif"

Uwc.

"...and the hoops you have to go thru' in your village to get to this city..... I thought only laborers from a certain South Asian country does that ! "

Hmmmm.....village?? My currency buys 2 of yours...lol. I don't think I need to answer that question,don't u think...sounds kinda racist,for a race i'm not from! Either ways,very poor taste in simili's.

Thanks.
Overmars,
Pls read my previous post.It'll explain things in perspective.

[Metro man]

He uproots his kids from their original schools in their hometown and pays large donations(read bribes to the tune of 50k),heavy deposits(to the tune of 10k) and gets them into a school of choice.
The company reimburses the 'tution fees'(0.7k).

Some private schools want "donations" to ensure a place. However local schools may be acceptable to some, particularly British, as O and A levels are the final exams. No need to worry about drug taking or politically correct nonsense, your child will not get a book promoting same sex marriage.

Now he sells his house(s) in his town of origin.
Why not rent it out and have someone else pay the mortgage for you ?

And pays upwards of 5.5-6k PM for a half decent accomodation on the east coast of singapore.
Why pay so much ? With rents heading south around $4000 would get something reasonable. $2.5 - $3.0 would get acceptable further out.

Another 150k minimum for a set of wheels to get u around!
New Corolla $62 000 if you must have a car, excellent public transport.

A little bit of adaptation pays off.

[King on a Wing]

I will agree with you MM.
A bit of adaption pays off.
Unfortunately the rentals you quoted are either pre 2006 rentals or post 2009.The same with the schools and the car prices.Have you checked them lately.You would be surprised.
I'm going to leave here in a coupla months anyways (contract's up!) but these are the Sgd I have had to shell out.So i'm not kidding here.
Having said that,I do appreciate your efforts to honestly enlighten me.Thanks for the tip on my home in my place of origin.Unfortunately,i've already sold it off,in order to enable mortgage payments and to steer clear of the repo men.They can be nasty you know.....:uhoh:.
Thanks for the advice though.
I shall take it as it comes.
KW

[Left Coaster]

Hmmm. Let me see...car in Singapore? Why? Taxi fares really low if you compare to any other city of the same size. (Even with the extra +++) We MAY have spent 400 S$ a month to get around, and we had a good number of places we liked to head out to...including work. All those so called bribes were returned at the end of it all. School deposits, rent deposits etc. Yes there is a surprise factor at first, but for bloody sakes, do your homework...it isn't that hard! I will agree that "buying" a place at the school seems unfair, but it IS a business first and one must show a profit in Singapore or your are not very good business... :) It is a common practise in many countries. Have a chat with your school and find out what the policy is. My intel is that most expats are leaving anyway, and some schools have done a "180" on the policy already. As for rents, seems like some Landlords are paying a seriously stiff price for their greed over the last couple of years...lots of expats "running" and leaving the deposit behind to settle the bill, and leaving a greedy landlord behind. A simple two year contract (rental) has a clause that allows some relief if you need to get out of your contract early, but apparently a few owners are looking to add extra costs to the tenant. The protection some tenants might have been used to in their home countries do not protect them in the island state, but as I said above...so do your homework first! As for getting away clean, personally I had no issues...talk to your HR people, do not listen to the rumours and good luck...If in fact the company is shown that their policies are unfair there is a method of arbitration. Just ask the SAS boys who were shown the door...they did manage to "enlighten" (via the MOM) the policy makers that they acted in haste...sorry to hear the bloom is off the rose, we enjoyed most of our time there...

[overmars]

Thanks.
Overmars,
Pls read my previous post.It'll explain things in perspective.

I read your previous post. It is unfair to use that argument to say that an expat does not earn more than a local. If you tell that to one of the local FOs that you fly with, I reckon you will either get a respectful nod or, if he is more outspoken, something unrespectful.

I feel that a lot of your expenditures could be cut down. Your quote of 5-6k for a half-decent accomodation will actually give you a VERY decent accomodation. Oh, and don't forget to mention that expats do get a housing allowance which should offset most, if not all, of the rent. Anyway, we have people living in HDBs (again, why do many expats shun HDBs?) and they are also decent.

150k, like what MM said, is too expensive for a car! For half the price, you can get a really reliable Japanese car to zip around town. Unless, of course, you are looking to zip around town in a Golf GTi or a Volvo.

With respect to education, you always have the option of local schools. Nothing wrong with them. Many of the local FOs are from them and most, I hope, did not come out as pariahs.


So, again, I say, expats do earn more than locals. It is just that your calculation of expenditures of an expat is equally high.

[expat400]

Why deny that expats are paid more? They are, and they should be.

Not because they are "better" or "worth more" or "need to keep a certain standard".

No, the company is simply paying for the experience and the short term contract.

Anyone bringing in years of experience should be paid more.

Anyone hired on a short, easy terminated contract should be paid more.

Simple.

[Minosavy Masta]

Ahhhhhh the Truman Show sequel is alive and well ..Laaaa

[Metro man]

Expats should be paid a sufficient amount to make it worthwhile for them, otherwise why come ? This could even be less than the locals (ie contracts in Japan) as long as enough suitable people apply. Is the package on offer enough to compensate for the inconvenience and extra expense incured, as well as the insecurity of a fixed term employment period.

However, as Singapore has developed the 'expat premium' has decreased for many occupations. Companies simply do not need to pay over the odds for a pleasant location, where as if it was Riyadh or Lagos .......

Actually King on a Wing may well have spent $150 000 on an average car if he bought many years ago, prices now have come down to 'only' 2-3 times USA/Europe/Australia levels. I bought a 4 year old Hyundai for only 50% more than a new one would have cost me where I came from.;) Lower income tax rates more than compensate though.

I do remember the rents going ballistic in 2007, fortunately I had just signed a 2 year lease. Many people I knew faced 40 - 80% increases on renewal.

SQ may have over reacted this time and could find themselves short when things pick up again.

[a345xxx]

King On A Wing,

I hope this thread is just your way of venting your frustrations. So get it all out and leave it in Singapore before you make your way to your next destination especially if its the ME because we already have enough of your kind over here.

If you are so unhappy with SQ and Singapore the only suggestion I have for you is tell everybody you know not to join them. Advise them on how you were ill treated and maybe you could save a few guys from making the biggest mistake of their aviation career!

But its really funny because I can see your kind jumping at the slightest chance of a contract renewal or maybe even returning to SQ when things improve. So it comes back to your original posting......

Keep in mind though there are no unions in the ME to blame and point fault with though you can do usual thing and blame management for all things bad.

All the best mate in whatever you do and wherever you go.:)

[slayerdude]

No body held the provebial gun to your head and told you to go fly for SQ..... All those things you did so you could fly for SQ has nothing to do with SQ... Thats your personal domain......King!!! you gotta leave the sunny shores of spore man!!!!! An unhappy pilot.... is a dangerous pilot!!

[CDRW]

Then how safe is SQ at the moment.!!!!

[parabellum]

It would be fair to remember that when an expat comes to Singapore to join SIA he becomes a part of Singapore society straight away, he pays tax, rent, utilities bills, medical and dental etc. Singapore is not a typical expat situation where salary is tax free, housing is free, utilities are heavily subsidised, medical and dental are free.

The expat coming to Singapore makes the place his home and has a sense of belonging, (except at the airline where one is always an outsider), the kids go to school and mix freely with the local children and so it goes on, a family unit is established.

Consequently, when one is told the job is over in Singapore, it is much more of a wrench than leaving a place where you were obviously always only ever temporary, being a part of Singapore life does give one a (false) sense of security.

Slayerdude - I don't think you really understand what is going on.

[a345xxx]

I don't know where you guys get the idea of an unhappy pilot is an unsafe pilot. I believe the same topic was brought up in the ME section! We are professionals, if an unhappy pilot is unsafe then there would probably be about 100 accidents a day or more especially considering the current enviroment.

If any of you pilots think that by pushing this topic of safety and unhappiness to garner some sort of public sympathy or even some press coverage to get better T and C's... please think again!

Unhappiness is like an EICAS message ....it means Get your life in order and if you can't and feel safety is compromised ...then get another job!

[King on a Wing]

Parabellum,
Thanks for the support IRT slayerdude.
Needed a bailout there!

[CDRW]

345 - I really don't think anyones "trying garner sympathy" with the "unhappy" off handed comments - so dont try and twist the thread in that direction. And I do agree with you, that if it where true, SQ would be a ways behind a lot of other airlines - especially ones in the region you are, or about to work in!

Parabellum - very true and good points. I might add one suggestion is that the expat you describe is generally an SQ expat. There certainly are Expats in Singapore that fall into the absolutely everything provided category.

[slayerdude]

King... apologies bout the unhappy=dangerous jibe... on my part that was out of line... my bad.

Para- agreed that expats in spore do plant roots down. indeed when roots gets pulled out...family usually takes the brunt....
thats the illusion bout being an expat in spore.... the life you have has roots.... i.e kids school, kids friends, cars club membership...etc.... however it doesn't change the fact that it is a CONTRACT term job.....
hence the mis-illusion... the contract job is never permanent ....subject to the 3 month notice that you or the company can part ways... SQ is not responsible for the roots that one has laid down in trying to make sense of living overseas.

[King on a Wing]

slayerdude,
No worries mate.All's accepted.And you don't have to be sorry 'bout it.It all comes with the territory.Ths good and sometimes the not so good.One learns to experience it,live with it,and then walk on ahead.
Thanks anyways.
Now for that beer I left by the pool....:ok:

[parabellum]

No argument there Slayerdude, I was just pointing out why some expats took getting the 'flick' quite so hard.

[King on a Wing]

So the company HAS FINALLY posted an approximately 1.1 billion dollar profit for the last fiscal(as I had posted in my first post!).
And we HAVE been advised by COO to expect about 2.5 months bonus.....
But really......where does that actually leave us??
The inevitable retrenchments,or a gradual climb out.
Swine flu is now a thing of the past,the economy's very slowly(but very very surely) looking up,so why should the democles sword still hang above our heads.Or was this all just a tactic to retain highly skilled human resources (pilots) at a lower cost throughout.....??
Hmmm...
I guess we'll never find out will we....:oh:
Or will we....;)

[King on a Wing]

Hi,
Have JUST been informed that the ALPA-S and the Managment are to meet up with the MOM for a FINAL meet on this coming monday ie 1st of June 2009.If the 3-4 days Cnpl issued is not resolved and Alpa sticks to its stance of 1 day Cnpl I have been informed by a VERY VERY reliable source that retrenchments are SURE to be next.And both expats AND locals alike shall be affected....!!!
So pray like hell that Alpa-s accepts the 3 day Cnpl and doesn't negotiate.Its non productive FOR ALL PLEASE......!!!
No brainer that.....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[411A]

Many years ago, when the B707 fleet at SQ was the most in numbers, I was approached by a local Captain and asked how to contact ALPA in the USA, as they wanted to form a pilots union.
I passed along the contact telephone numbers, AFTN, SITA and telex details and then mentioned....Albert, you are waisting your time.
The management decides what the roster/pay/leave, days off (etc) will be, and no 'union' will dictate to the airline management.
And managements decisions will be backed up by the respective government minister, make no mistake.
Think of Singapore as similar to HKG...with a happy face painted on, and perhaps a bit of cleaner air.:}

[boeingdream787]

ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agree with the fine tuned thinking of King and the views of 411A.
If the unions had ANY say whatsoever in the scheme of things then your paycheque would have the ALPA-S president's authorised signature and not the company CFO's.So I guess the one who pays the bills and the salaries will be the one pulling ALL the strings won't he.
Just like King so rightly put.......NO BRAINER!!

[777vs330]

The company just made more than 1billion POST TAX profit and yet the point is not clear to some. Even if the downturn sustains, there's no way that SQ will even make a loss in any quarter. And now we have expats who are drumming for all of us to take the 3 days CNPL simply because the management tells you that it's bad? How about this, have you ever thought why they never even wanna discuss with ALPAS the cost savings they are looking at to keep all the pilots right now? And why is it that after ALPAS offers to take paycut, but restorable if the company does stay in the black and it was OUTRIGHT rejected by management?
The answer is very simply, too simple. They want it exactly the way they planned it. The management knew it too well that we do have our CA (I know it a piece of lame Collective Agreement, but we still do have one) to address any poor performance financially. They have to come up with new excuses that we should not be seeing loss but to PREVENT it. Now again, my sources told me that not a problem with ALPAS, but why the refusal in restoring the pay loss if we do make profit? And by the way, why stop at 3 days CNPL? Why not take 10 so that everyone will keep their jobs for sure? The sad news is, IF we accept this, this IS a precedence set for future cost management. Which means, even in good times; if they have excess pilots, you will get CNPL.
Now before anyone of you start shooting, consider this; most if not ALL the locals, and even the sensible expats will agree that we are all willing to consider anything. ONLY if there's a channel to pay us back the pay deduction IF the financial result shows otherwise. I'm sure from most other countries where the expats came from, it's unthinkable that the expats will even have such strong voice to begin with. Let alone trying to just see things from the opportunistic SVP circular and support it blindly.
I for once, am supporting ALPAS as from all the statements from the council, I see all sincerity in offering solution. It's the management side that's trying to play unethical game here. There's no freaking way that we should take the CNPL without a clause to back ourselves up,period.

[ULH Extreme]

Agree with you 777
I'm a shareholder in SIA and i think it's obscene that the Co. wants their employees to take a paycut, to boost my dividends, while they are still making a substantial profit. I don't want their stolen money.
However, as an employee , i do expect to have my throat cut on Tue. The State has to get back that $50B they lost one way or another.
I wish AlpaS all the best on Tue. Put up a good fight guys, you have so far.

[boeingdream787]

@777 vs 330(nice screen name!)
"Even if the downturn sustains, there's no way that SQ will even make a loss in any quarter".In the FY 2008-9 the company made extraordinary profits in the first 3 quarters and has already bled drastically in the fourth.You should know that!
Quote "I'm sure from most other countries where the expats came from, it's unthinkable that the expats will even have such strong voice to begin with"
And what "strong voice" is this my friend.Being able to speak up in an anoynmous forum like Pprune...???!!?? Don't pull wool over yor eyes my friend.An expat has not even a fraction of the rights that the local has in SQ.And that's a fact.However lets not deviate from the topic at hand....
I can see Alpa-S sacrificing the heads of all/most expats on Monday(just like the proverbial goat!) by NOT accepting the 3 days Cnpl and therefore putting all the expats on the frontlines of retrenchments.How do you justify that position? Will Alpas protect the expat if due to their foolishness and greed the expats are retrenched.Cause it sure wont come down to the locals being retrenched will it?? After all you need to get rid of only 70-80 captains right? No brainer again for Alpa(as king put it!).Simply refuse the Cnpl and let the 80 expat heads roll.Therefore GUARANTEEING the local NO retrenchment.
Unfortunately,this time,I am quite certain that if we don't accept Cnpl,then expat AND local heads will roll....!!!
And I have not even included the poor poor F/O's here,who are going to get crushed innocently in this crossfire.At least 120-140 F/O's are SURE to be retrenched if the 3-4 days Cnpl is NOT acceppted.Would u rather have a 8-10% paycut for a little while OR have no job forever huh?? Think about that guys. With the so called 'paycut' I guarantee you that you will have a show of solidarity with the company while even getting some brownie points AND genuine show of sympathy from ALL the other staff in the company.I guarantee you this!!
And again lets not forget also that the F/O who's been 'retrenched',will sure as hell get his job back asap once the company does better.But does the same happen to this senior expat pilot with a wife ,kids,rent and mortgages due to pay in singapore.I don't think so.Once he's been "let go" I can assure you that he won't return.Nor (i feel) will he be allowed to do so.So there......
Mull over this...

[777vs330]

ULH Extreme
Well looks like you're one of the luckier ones that have a share of the company.. :)

As for the CNPL, it really won't affect me. My contract is up soon, and have already been told no renewal is gonna be possible. Fortunately for me, I have got my job secured somewhere else. Maybe it's because of my situation (divorced, very mobile, not financially messed up like some,etc.) I'm more aligned with the local boys trend of thoughts. From where I was from, there's no way that this could be allowed. Well there again there's nothing to brag about as I was laid off and had to move on.

I seriously think that it's stupid for ALPAS to swallow this without making sure that someone high up there (the ones who're trying to recover 50B) get to know that the Pilots do wish to share the burden, but with reason and justification in check.

I can't foresee SIA management taking the right move, and deep down, I fear that our spineless flight Ops will consistently take the side of the evil (HR) and shaft this down hard into our throats. So, let's brace for more.
Cheers buddy.

[777vs330]

boeingdream787 (Yrs not bad too.)
Guess we posted almost at the same time.

Now the same statement over and over again that we hear very often, quote: I am quite certain that if we don't accept Cnpl,then expat AND local heads will roll....!!! Unquote

Please read my points on the nature of how this CNPL is introduced. As I have mentioned, for me, it doesn't affect me anymore. However I do think it's suspicious that they just want 3 days CNPL as and when they deem fit. And NOT wanting any other leeway of managing the cost, do you still believe that it's purely to save expat pilots' jobs? I for once totally did not think so and had started preparing myself well before, since I'm well aware that my contract ends 3rd quarter 09. I was lucky, and got away with another job early and hopefully keeps me busy for next couple of years.

As for the strong expats' voice, IT IS strong here in SIA without a doubt. I do not think we'd have any similar chance of doing the same in most other flag carriers that hire expats. And as expats, somehow in SQ, we are less fit to handle downturns. And to think that ALPAS actually has a say, and that the management will resume contract renewal if ALPAS accept 3 days CNPL; it's really a joke. I may have not be in the company for too long. But I don't need too much time to figure this one out, they (HR) will do exactly how they want it, and that's the bottom line.

As said earlier, the fact is even if ALPAS accepts 3 days CNPL, would you dare hold your breath and say nothing else will come along? Retrenchment list has been prepared right from the first sign of financial crisis, and I have no doubt when the season is right, the spring cleaning will commence.

[linksys]

Another covert threat to the whole pilot group, now focusing on the
'weak' FO's in this company..

Wonder who is going to help this bunch..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpts below
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CNPL

We are already into the 2nd half of the year and there are no signs of recovery, in spite of talk of ‘green-shoots’ and stock market activity. The last quarter of the past financial year saw a large drop in revenue and the recent reports of H1N1 outbreaks in Japan has dampened travel further preceding the June school holidays.

Some of you have observed full loads on some flights but this must be viewed in light of reduced capacity in certain sectors. Reduced load factors, poor yields and opening up of ASEAN skies have resulted in us ceding flights to MI in KUL, HYD and PEN. SIA Cargo is faring worse.

Many other legacy airlines are bleeding and a major competitor has recently announced cutting First Class on some flights. We would be remiss and irresponsible to ignore the signs and bury our heads in the sand, hoping for a quick turnaround.

To-date the Company has had several meetings with ALPAS. We have also sought joint-mediation with MOM. Unfortunately we have not progressed beyond the interim 1-day CNPL already agreed upon. At these meetings, the company has shown the excess numbers of pilots brought about by capacity cuts.

These numbers were also shown to you at the dialogue sessions. To mitigate the excess crew numbers, we have offered several schemes which some of you have taken up. This included non-renewals of expatriate contracts as their term ends.


The company has, at its meetings with the Association and at the dialogue sessions, shown the actual CNPL days required to absorb the excesses. It varied fleet-by-fleet, and captains from first officers due to operational requirements. The CNPL days went as high as 6 days to zero for varying fleets and by months. The company has committed to capping it to 3 days for captains and 4 days for first officers. This is dependant on monthly rostering requirements. No CNPL was planned for instructors as they are not in excess but the interim 1 day was applied to them arising from the Association’s inputs.


These additional measures beyond the interim 1-day CNPL are necessary to stave off the last resort for retrenchment, which will affect expats and nationals alike.

[777vs330]

And to add more salt onto any wound: It looks like Flt Ops has no intention of slowing down Captain upgrade training, and FO training too. I just had a cadet pilot (he told me that he's only a cadet, not even a SO) on observer duty. It was brought to both my FO & my attention that there's no sign of slowing in recruitment. The only thing is the back log is very very long. This bloke, he's still waiting for his SIM training since many months ago and there's no lesson planned in sight according to him. And the FO with me right away concurred that training department has no intention of holding off upgrade training for FOs too. And jokingly ( not knowing that I'm on my way out ) he said a new local Captain cost so much less than me. I have to admit, I couldn't argue that one out really.
What a fantastic opportunity once again SIA Flight Ops management has been presented with. I'm sure they will waste no time to engage next phase of firing; right after ALPAS being forced to accept more CNPLs.

[leewan]

I concur 101% with 777vs330 that they should pay us back for our sacrifices when the company is doing good.If cost cutting is a pre-emptive measure to prevent loss, then I'm all up for it. But if it's used as another mean to increase it's coffer and pay for some fools investing mistake, then F:mad:K you.And the only way to prevent a misunderstanding there is to have a clause to compensate or reward us back if the company quarterly or annual profit makes it to a mutually agreed target . And wasn't the purpose of AWC, MVC to allow flexibilty in our pay during bad times ?

Frankly speaking, ALPA-S, MOM and any workers' union in Singapore are just toothless tigers. This "mediation" is just going through the motions for the inevitable. SQ has learned from its bloody PR mess it made out of the 2003 retrenchments and has seemed to choreograph its every move( VNPL, CNPL, paycut) to the T for the "spring cleaning". It would seem that they did everything they could to prevent it when it was planned all along. This order seems to come from high above( outside ALH ). Expat and locals alike, we are losers in this one way or another. The real winner is ......:suspect:

And an interesting piece of article i found on Anet. ( Not directly related to topic)
Is Temasek Holdings Plundering Singapore Airlines? — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4413145/?threadid=4413145&searchid=4413296&s=temasek#ID4413296)

[linksys]

Retrenchments are just an exercise to remind everyone who is 'king'.

And the 'king' requires regular 'sacrifice' and 'affirmation'.

And the time has come for recurrent training and Base-check.

Crap! my license is expiring soon...:{

[ULH Extreme]

BoeingDream, Suggest you go onto the Alpas site and read the latest on the round of talks. Might calm you down abit. With more Capts leaving all the time, the no's will improve slowly and before you know it, we're short.:ugh:Just hope we haven't taken that pay cut, because they'll never give it back.:uhoh:

[4PW's]

damn straight!

[Starburst3128]

BoeingDream, Suggest you go onto the Alpas site and read the latest on the round of talks. Might calm you down abit. With more Capts leaving all the time, the no's will improve slowly and before you know it, we're short.:ugh:Just hope we haven't taken that pay cut, because they'll never give it back.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/worry.gif

Is the outcome confidential? Seems like noone is talking publicly about it unlike the first round.

[boeingdream787]

Why am i so certain that the MOM is going to impose at least 2/3 days cnpl.And why are they mixing up the issues of SI and AVC?
Well,lets wait and see.

[King on a Wing]

While on the same topic it would be interesting to compare the take home salaries of say a local 777 captain working for SIA with that of an expat 777 captain.Just a thought to see what the difference might be.
I do know that the expat is paid a house rent allowance that probably the local is not...and a certain part of his kids tution fees are catered for.Any input as to the rosters of the two pilots.I would like to think that the local pilot makes the best of stations as a 'compensation' towards his 'lack' of income.Maybe not....just wondering...;)

[4PW's]

Who the eff is this guy?

[Left Coaster]

King...didn't you already say you were an "Expat" Capt with SIA...if so you would already know the pay scenarios between the two groups...if you don't then you must be a quiet fellow at work...it doesn't take much to find out what the diffs are...so who are you really?
:cool:

[a345xxx]

King, please this is an honest and sincere request...please if SIA does not renew your contract or if retrenchment becomes a reality please do not come over to the ME especially QR.

Are you insinuating that a local pilot gets a better roster consistently then an expatriate? Over here we are all the same so please take your xenophobic views and go home to wherever you came from.

[King on a Wing]

a345,
You claim to be from singapore whilst u simultaneously say"come over"with reference to QR and the other's lost in the sand.Make up ur muddled mind boy.
LC,
I don't go around asking personal q's to other pilots,be they expats or locals or for that matter from any other airline.Its un ethical to say the least! I obviously assume that u do it on a regular basis.Ethics seems far from ur post.Pls vent ur frustrations some other place.Mebbe the sandpit would be a good start.
And yes,I have it from good authority that the singaporean buys have a much much better roster than the expats.If somebody wants proof of the pudding we could get it for you.Will take some effort but possible nevertheless....:cool:
Digest that...

[Left Coaster]

King...easy there fella...Sorry if I hit a sore spot...simply interested in what you might be thinking. I actually know more about the SQ situation than you might think. To react the way you have makes many wonder why you feel that the "Local" pilots at SIA get a better deal? Let me help, they get a better deal because they are from SINGAPORE! Standard expat rule all over the world...get used to it. Locals win...expats are cannon fodder. BTW, the scheduling program used by SQ is programmed to balance hours, route qualifications, and other such CAAS requirements. Hours go to those who need training first, training pillots get rostered by those requirements. There is no "seniority list" so to speak, and as such, no one may hog any COP's...But like any program, it can be altered. If you have a gripe, take it to your ALPAS guys, and keep it out of here. To throw your toys out of the crib, or toss an insult or two will only make you look more and more foolish. Ethically speaking? Whatever... What's that old saw...? It's better to keep one's mouth closed and let them think you are an idiot, than to open it and prove it...(paraphrased...)
Have good day!:rolleyes:

[King on a Wing]

Oh and @ 4PW,
Quote: "Who the eff is this guy?"
Talk about a lame question.Therefore u are insinuating in one statment that you know everybody on Pprune. :eek:
Wow,u must go places boy! Surely not into aviation...:ugh:
LC,
"It's better to keep one's mouth closed and let them think you are an idiot, than to open it and prove it...(paraphrased...)"
You couldn't have put it better.So as the big boys would say......shut up!!
And save what little grace u have left after your last few posts.
You just proved yourself that you are after all.........an idiot!
Now back to the topic at hand...

[Left Coaster]

Wow...look at all the toys on the floor...
I'm done...cya!:bored:

[King on a Wing]

Yep...you ARE done!
Now vamoose before the fellas in white come a chasin' will u.

[Flaperon777]

Hey Lefty why don't you stop winding a perfectly decent thread.Stick to the topic at hand brudder.
Thanks.

[parabellum]

Left Coaster - You are right, the roster is 'balanced' to make sure everyone gets similar hours and therefore money. What isn't balanced is who gets to be 'in command' out of SIN, with no STBY and who gets to go to London and who gets the crap.;)

[millerscourt]

Parabellum That was the advantage of being London based!!!!

Your fault from being from OZ:{

PS We had to have something to make it worthwhile living in the land of Blair/Brown

[a345xxx]

Good luck to all of you!:ok:

[King on a Wing]

Thanks Parabellum for that enlightening and comforting post.However,it really wasn't the hours flown per month that I was hinting at, rather the "quality" of those hours(like you so rightly pointed out) which needed to be balanced.
And I think some are more 'balanced' than others,don't you think....;) .
The same 70 hrs done by one pilot doing Lhr's/Cdg's and other europe destinations could differ by a kings ransom from one doing Dps and Kul shuttles.That was what I was trying to point out.Thanks for your input eitherways...goes well appreciated :).

[linksys]

I agree with you for once. ( King )

70-hrs on European / US COPs are nothing compared to regional COPs.

Especially when you're facing the same typhoon 3 times a week.

aka, HKG, TPE + MNL... take that for 70-hrs per-month.
:ok:

[King on a Wing]

How true.
And isn't it amazing how the 'not so lucky' ones ALWAYS end up doing the typhoon stations just during the typhoon season,whereas the 'blue eyed' ones would be doing all the europe Cop's during the same!
But to be fair to the rostering,the 'not so lucky' group too has their share of europe Cop's.....right in the midst of the fog season,and the xmas hols....lol...:ugh:..!! And this is when the others will do the "typhoon stations".Right in the midst of winter......lolol.
So much for balanced rostering...!! :{
Wonder who you have to feed out here to get a decent Cop!
WoW!

[ULH Extreme]

Just remember one thing King, IT'S THEIR TRAIN SET, so go and get your own. Hopefully you might understand, but it's doubtful, the way you have spat the dummy in the past.

[King on a Wing]

This is exactly where the problem lies.The day we start saying "our" and not "their" is the day all these problems will disappear :).
Sure its their train set,but we're playing the game too.And its not the company that matters rather the people that make the company.Therefore why this great divide.Or at least a pretense of a divide.

[boeingdream787]

King,Correct me if i am wrong(and I might just be),but isn't this 'great divide' only in the minds of the pilots concerned.I always thought a pilot was a pilot be he(or she)singaporean,malaysian,indian,aussie or a bloody martian! Why should his being an expat or a local affect his thinking.I'm not saying that it doesn't ,but should it....?? Just a thought

[boeingdream787]

Hey guys.I've just been informed that the Sia pilots and managment have finally come to an agreement of a paycut for pilots to the tune of about 1.65 days no pay leave in lieu of NO RETRENCHMENTS..!!
Wow,is that true.If so then who's gotten shafted and who's laughing all the way to the bank? Just curious...:)

[fatbus]

How will that show up in your roster? How many days off do you normally get and will this be an add on? Will it effect senior differently than jr ones?

[King on a Wing]

Fatbus,
By what I understand,the Cnpl will reflect on your payslip simply as 'Cnpl' with an amount deducted from your salary.Similarly it will reflect on your roster.However the other 0.65 day paycut will probably reflect in your payslip either seperately or in conjugation with the other one day cnpl.Therefore you may have a total paycut of 1.65 days on your payslip.But,the other 0.65 day off will not reflect on your roster since you CAN be utilised on that day for purpose of flying duties.That's my understanding of this paysut buisness.
@Boeinggream,
I reckon BD that the managment would be quite Ok with this arrangement.Having said that,the Alps-s has done quite a reasonable job too.Not to forget that the mediator in all of this was the MOM. And the MOM is always slightly inclined and more sensitive to the needs of the worker rather than the company.And I do mean slightly only.In the words of the Prime Minister himself,every company must keep layoffs and retrenchments AS THE LAST RESORT.And SIA as a company has complied quite wilfully.Job well done by BOTH parties! No two ways about that :D.
The flip side of the coin would have been EXTREMELY distasteful for both sides.Management loses extremely experienced expats who they probably have just hired and who are still bonded.Whilst simultaneously spreading a very very ill word and ill repute in regards to the company throughout the pilot community worldwide.Not to mention the headhunters and agencies involved(if at all).And NO COMPANY wants that, or can survive that.Because at some time or another every company needs expats to run and assist with the show.And SIA as a company has always chosen the best of the lot from the market.So this 'arrangement' with Alps-s had diverted a whole WHOLE lot of bad publicity for SIA.And most press reports worldwide are indicative of just that.It's been taken as a huge plus and a feather in the cap of the management.
As far as the pilot is concerned,I think the implications of this agreement are obvious.Like I said earlier,we are now seen as "the guys who chipped in when times were bad".And why not.We SHOULD chip into the company coffers. WHATSOEVER we can. Howsoever insignificant our personal contributions might seem,the end result is always an uncomoflaged large number.And then,you also have the goodwill to go with it.Just do your bit please and leave the rest to the laws of the universe.It shall and will come back to you.With interest!
Notwithstanding the fact that now you are seen as a team player.Which is ever so important in the larger scheme of things.Isn't it...
Good job done.....both the Management AND Alpa-s.Keep up this comraderie.Remember, one minus one is ALWAYS zero.But one plus one can be eleven.And in most cases it WILL be eleven.Work on that,so that our next generations of pilots can look back upon us and say,"Hey....look what our previous generation left for us.Two banks of the same river which work together in keeping the strong current of the river within themselves.Rather than working against one another and allowing the waters to overflow the banks and causing destruction".
Well,I don't know about you,but that's how I wish to be remembered when I retire.
Thanks.

[parabellum]

So, have SIA now renewed all those contract of expats that it previously said it would not renew?

[ArkPilot]

Hmmm! 1.65 days equals about 5% per month PLUS the MVC is still available for the not so distant future.:bored:

[King on a Wing]

Parabellum,
Sadly.....no.
Very unfortunately,i guess,as in every large company when push comes to shove,there always are some casualties.And those whose contracts were up for renewals at that point and time(for that matter even today)just happened to become the casualties of the moment.However,even though it did seen like ripping a pound of flesh from their body(in managment's own words),the 'non renewals' were NOT taken to be retrenchments.Merely a paragraph in their contract which was quite clear to the expats on joining itself.All contracts are subject to scruitiny and an assessment at the end of the term.No auto renewals(at least SO FAR with Sia).
That said,I hear that this contract non renewal is supposed to be for this calander year only.Of course that too is subject to change given the current state of the universe.Albeit improving very very surely though slightly slowly! Cause once let go,an expat isn't likely to join up back with the same company in the near future.
Although I did hear that most(if not all)of the one's released by Sia did get employment with a ME carrier.Something tells me that this 'airline transfer' of pilots too had something to do with the two respective governments.A neat arrangement if I may say so myself!

[777vs330]

Parabellum,
The answer is no (Well, at least mine's not renewed). Flight Ops has made it clear that non-renewal is NOT retrenchment. Can't pick on that, as they are indeed politically correct.
On the other hand, from what I was told by another double crew local skipper; apparently HR does not wanna commit on no retrenchment clause. All they said was it's best effort basis. So go figure it yourself.

As for rosters discrepancies, through my short span of service here, I have to say it all depends on who you talk to. Arrogant Captain (expat or local), usually loves to brag about him being rostered to typhoon affected areas, along with the "burden" of inexperienced FO all of the time. And that when it's Cat 2 & 3 low vis season, he'd then be "required" to head to Europe. I normally just quietly laugh it off. I know personally that couple of my friends (expats) have got rosters that the locals WILL kill if they ever found out the trips they had. My roster, so far, I can't complain since line Captain doesn't do too many turnarounds. I'm happy to serve up to 3 turns without much frowning. Most of the time, I'm on 4-8days COP. Best evidence, I find, is to verify randomly an expat roster against a local by checking our wonderful buddy roster program.

[boeingdream787]

@ KOAW,
"No auto renewals(at least SO FAR with Sia)."
I hear this is in for some serious re-strategizing on part of the managment.They apparently want to retain experienced hands(those who are worth it ofcourse)for as long as possible after this downturn.Could it be true.Hope they do away with this 'contract' buisness for good.It prevents the expat from having the crucial feeling of belonging.Which in turn affects loyalty,and that in turn affects company profits!
Just some food for thought.

[traptinsin]

Heard yesterday that the expat captains on the 74 have been warned that they will not be retrained when the megatop fleet closes in january---- guess that is not retrenchment either as I believe it is covered in the contract:ugh:

[name of user]

boeingdream787,

"do away with this 'contract' buisness"

So you're suggesting that everyone goes on 'local terms' and hence full employment and no 'extra' allowances?

Yes you're right, expats will definitely have the feeling of belonging and it will affect company profits.:ok:

[777vs330]

"So you're suggesting that everyone goes on 'local terms' and hence full employment and no 'extra' allowances?"

Wont work. Quite a few have tried, so far, their "phase 1" plan is to "purge" with non renewal for at least this year. Next phase, I think very like they will offer new recruit something close to local terms. But you can forget the provident funds (CPF) for sure.

[Brave heart]

The fact is: "Foreign pilots working on local terms in Singapore, unless they are Permanent Residents, are payed less then local pilots"... :ugh:

[winglet_fever]

IMHO, if i were to be seated on the hot seat, i'll triple the number of command trainees. Its not like they have a small pool of ready candidates

[744Cap]

Just out of curiosity, how many CN's (or %) are expats at SQ? Are most on the megatop or spread throughout the fleet?

[Dani]

If the local contract is similar to the one in SLK or TGW, it's not that bad. You still earn something in the 160 - 200 k S$ range. The only thing that's missing is the housing and the schooling fees. If you don't have a bunch of children, you wont realise it.

You also get CPF, medical and the bonus.

OK, it's not the same as it used to be, but it's still good. Problem was that those old expat contracts where too good...

Dani

[linksys]

Did someone just 'bounced' a SQ B777 in KUL yesterday evening?
Heard AOG and return sector cancelled.
:ok:

[CDRW]

"Bounced" as in the ground rose and smote him?? Hard landing that made it AOG??

[Jr. Airman]

yep, 2.6Gs registered. machine's still in KUL.


Did someone just 'bounced' a SQ B777 in KUL yesterday evening?
Heard AOG and return sector cancelled.

[linksys]

My bad,
Too much lay-man terms.

Looks like a preeti hard landing to deploy most of the cabin O2 masks.

Any updates?
:ok:

[sq111]

where u hear that from? not mentioned on SQ web

[leewan]

Yup. It was a Romeo series a/c.

where u hear that from? not mentioned on SQ web

If nobody was injured or if this news wasn't reported by a news network, they will not put it in their website. No airline will openly reveal every single screwup that happens on a daily basis.

[777vs330]

If you just do some quick checking on SQ Web portal using KUL station as a start, it won't take you couple more clicking to get to the crew involved. It seemed like they do have nightstop in KUL, which I believe is non existent in our COP.

[CDRW]

Sounds like another board of inquiry, being asked lots of leading questions by the 4th floor, CAAS investigation, 13 weeks off flying. Anyone know if it was training?

[777vs330]

From what's shown on the web, it's non training. And manned by expat skipper judging by the staff number. And you're spot on regarding grounding part, it's gonna be tough on the crew.

[William73]

Maybe the thread should be relocated or renamed as i believe it went off track.
Proposal: "HARD LANDING BY EXPAT PILOTS"
Source: Staff number
Great and interesting informations i would say.Next time i will read the Daily Mirror.Stay focus.
Cheers.

[boeingdream787]

Wholeheartedly agree with William73....:ok:.
Stay focussed guys......Thanks.

[linksys]

Hmm!, Looks like a mandatory 10% pay-cut (basic).

Crap! Look like we're losing 3-4-days per-month pay cut equivalent.
:eek:

[Metro man]

I thought a loss meant no monthly variable component, effectively a 10% cut ?

[Transition Level]

Most probably there will be no bonus next year.

1 day No Pay leave + .0.6 of a One day salary . + No Monthly Variable Allowance (10%) + No bonus = 30 to 40 % less Income for Fiscal Year 2009 than Fiscal Year 2007.

[William73]

The Monthly Variable Component(10% of the basic salary) has been withdrawn for the last 2 months (june and july)without making too much noise,and apparently even with a 70% load factor(cargo) during the last month,it will go on till the end of the year.Yields are not good enough,for those who understand.(I don't)
Let's see what will happen for the months of october,november and december,which are the most productive of the year.
Really tough time...