We CAN tackle the CAA

[Mystery_Guest]

....And the constant unfair rip-off system they have subjected us all to. It will just require a little bit of effort on the part of you good people.

I am in the fortunate position of having the 'ear' of my local Labour MP. As we know, the CAA doesn't seem to be regulated by anyone, and the public would seem to have an appetite for this kind of scandal at the moment.

Once the bubble is burst, and enough people start shouting about it, we may have a chance to make some waves. No one need risk their chances of being a pilot, just use common sense.

It is a little bit rich of us to sit around here moaning, but not being prepared to do anything about it.

I'd be interested to get the opinion of the forum owners/moderators on the matter too. If there are enough people on this forum prepared to add a sensible and polite voice to this subject, I may be able to get the ball rolling..... <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

You 'avn't seen me, alright?

MG

[Davidils20l]

I would be more than willing to give my support. I could not start anything as I would not know where to begin, but am more than ready to follow and give my support if lead by someeone.

As for fear of loosing chances in piloatge for particapating, well F&*ck it. If we carry on taking the CAA's crap we are not going to be able to get or do anthing with our licences, rating, privledges etc...

. . To be honest I have had enough of their rubbish. Just as I satisfie one of their standars, they introduce new, or ammend old, upping and/or adding new price to things. The only reason I am carrieng on with the CAA is because of the amount I have invested so far, or else I would just pack off to Africa, Asia,. ( Going to do that anyway, once finished with Jar)

Well enough rambling, this is a wannabees forum, not a complaint. .coloum. . But get this thing rolling, and we will follow.

[basil fawlty]

When you are licensed and working for an airline you will realise that the system then works in your favour, not against, and you will be more than happy to maintain the status quo.... .Good luck to you, but I think that you are very naive if you really feel you can change the system. All professions have an establishment, and aviation in the UK in not an exception!

[Megaton]

How about the loss of Voluntary Tax Relief for professional flying training.

The adoption of JAR commercial standards for private aircraft.

The loss of national licences like the BCPL.

Ridiculous "exam by committee" questions.

Non-recognition of ICAO licences.

Landing fees, approach charges, airways etc etc.

[Mystery_Guest]

Basil Fawlty,

Thanks for you reply.

Firstly, to aspire to changing something that by definition will be difficult to change is a little harshly described as naive. Bloody hard yes, a long slog, yes. Frustrating, yes...the list goes on. But, the CAA is an organisation like any other, and it must and should be run and governed in such a way as to be fair to those who deal with it.

I would like to make it clear from the start that this is in no way to degenerate into an attack on CAA staff, many of whom do their very best to be helpful. I have had many good experiences dealing with many of them.

There are however a couple of salient points that I think need a mention. Firstly, the fact that the CAA may or may not support airline pilots is not really the point here. The fact that there are good aspects within the organisation is laudable, but in no way justifies the organisation's short comings. Secondly, the majority of complaints appear to fall into two most common categories: Admin and financial. Now, complaints regarding admin delays etc may well be nearly impossible to follow through, but matters financial may well be a different matter. Any organisation providing a service that is paid for by it's customers must be able to justify it's prices and adhere to what must be considered a 'fair' code of practice. This may be a good place to start digging. So far the CAA seem to be doing what ever they like regarding charges, but seem to be completely beyond reproach...

What I need here above all else is mass support, then I and we may be able to get somewhere.

[EX FTE]

Mystery Guest: Not sure what your motivation is for this thread. Are you:. .1. Recently abused/disenfranchised by the CAA?. .2. Recently but no longer employed by the CAA?. .3. Aiming to improve the aviation industry?. .4. Just out to create michief?

Any organsiation that provides services to consumers should be accountable to and representative of its users. No arguments with you there.

Having the ear of a local Labour MP may sound good but let me ask:. .1. Are they in the Transportation ministry?. .2. Are they on the Transport Select Committee?. .3. Do they actively support aviation?

Unless they answer is yes to at least some of the above, you will no doubt receive a polite letter from them assuring you of their interest blah blah blah. Truth is that most MPs have little influence on policy unless they are part of a policy making team, a committee or a ministry.

Notwithstanding my somewhat apathetic attitude towards the elected representatives of the people, there is a very important fact that you should know. The CAA is to be abolished; over time.

At the moment the JAA is a psuedo politcial body that represents the various national authorities with the intent of harmonising and standardising aviation within the members of the EEC/EU. It has as its own goal, its own self detruction and replacement with a new body - EASA. The European Aeronauctics & Safety Administration (correct title I believe) is intended to replace the national bodies. It will take responsibility for regulation, certification and enforcement of aviation policy for europe - eventually!! I think its inception is around 2005.

If I may be so bold as to suggest; the best chance to shape/guide/influence any organisation is from within. The only way that we as Brits can do that is by ensuring that our national bodies guide the formation of this new european body. That means getting on with the CAA and making sure that they input to the JAA what it is we want out of EASA.

I believe it is true to say that the JAA, for all its faults, would be a whole lot worse had not the CAA taken the lead in a number of key roles. Dont get me wrong I am not a CAA groupie - I just shudder to think about how bad it could be!!

So, I will support you and I have quite a few thoughts / opinions / suggestions that I would share, but I do think that rather than go for the CAA jugular, it would be best to present a united british front (authority, industry, private individual) in the formation of the future regulators.

[scroggs]

While this subject may well be of interest to Wannabes (and it may not: you haven't defined your position, point of view, or your precise aims), it is relevant to all UK commercial aircrew. It most certainly does not fit the relatively narrow subject constraints that we are currently trying to enforce on Wannabes, so I shall remove it to Aircrew Notices.. .I'd wish you luck, but I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve!

[EX FTE]

From the JAA website:

<a href="http://www.jaa.nl/whatisthejaa/jaainfo.html#4" target="_blank">http://www.jaa.nl/whatisthejaa/jaainfo.html#4</a>

"There was always general agreement between the JAA members that we need a more formal and legally binding status for JAA. Therefore a special working group developed a possible text for a JAA Convention that received an agreement in principle from the JAA Board in 1995 but was not further developed as some members felt that co-ordination with the European Union was necessary.

Since 1997 the EU is discussing a proposal from the European Commission for the establishment of a European organisation responsible for civil aviation safety. Finally in June 2000 the Council of the EU Transport Ministers asked the Commission to develop an EU Regulation for an European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) which will be responsible for rulemaking, certification and standardisation for the application of rules by the national aviation authorities.

Meanwhile, the draft "Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on common rules in the field of civil aviation and establishing a European Aviation Safety Agency" had its First Reading in the European Parliament and was politically agreed by the Council. After the envisaged Second Reading in the Parliament early 2002 and the final decision in the Council before Summer 2002, it is expected that the Regulation will be in force in the second half of the year 2002. It is anticipated that the EASA might start its work a year later by 2003.

JAA is very active these days, as defined in its second objective "Transition from JAA to EASA": To ensure the highest level of contribution to the European Union for establishing an European Aviation Safety Agency that would absorb all functions and activities of the JAA in a period as short as possible and would ensure the full participation of the JAA non EU member States.

The full transition from JAA to EASA will take several years:

EASA will at its start in 2003, only be responsible for Airworthiness Regulations and Type Certification.

The extension into the field of rulemaking for Operations and Licensing will need at least two additional years.

The participation of non EU Member States in EASA will need further negotiations and political decisions. "

[Mystery_Guest]

Scroggs,

I barely got the chance to lay out my full argument, I am testing the water here first, it doesn't require a literary work of art to portray the general idea....

The subject matter is particularly of interest to wannabes as they are generally the ones who encounter difficulties and have no other experience of the CAA to guide them. Furthermore, I am surprised by the swiftness of your actions in passing judgement on what this thread may or may not develop into. It is your decision however and I respect that, but I feel compelled to say that your dismissive tone is the kind of attitude that will probably put many people off when it comes to the debate....

EX FTE,

Thanks for the post...

&gt;Mystery Guest: Not sure what your motivation is for this thread.

My motivation here is simply being sick and tired of having to put up with the non accountability of an increasing number of organisations in this country, not just the CAA, I am definitely not out to make mischief!

In addition, I have had to sacrifice a lot in order to enter this profession, and feel abused by the ridiculous expenses I keep encountering along the way. I know that many would argue the 'look at the rewards' point here, but that doesn't justify the rip off.

I have read and am digesting your comments, very informative and well written - thanks very much for taking the time...

MG

[brain fade]

Been there,. .No, you can't. .don't blame you for trying tho' <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[scroggs]

MG. .I wasn't being dismissive, just observing that you were asking for support for an argument that you hadn't articulated. I, for one, expect a manifesto from those asking for my vote!. .As for the removal of the thread from Wannabes, I'm afraid that the realities of Pprune's bandwidth use mean that topics not strictly relevant to Pprune Wannabe's limited scope of obtaining professional licences and first jobs will be moved. There are many, many topics that are of interest to Wannabes but which will not qualify and will be moved. This topic is one such, and it has a rather wider scope. I hope it will get the interest it deserves here on Aircrew Notices.

[twinkletoes]

If I understand your argument correctly you have suffered the same grievances that most if not all of us ‘wannabe’pilots have suffered with our so called aviation authority. . .We are in an age were we will no longer tolerate the ‘old boys network’ mentality and yet we continually have to deal with it. . .This crosses the entire spectrum of the aviation population from aircrew to engineers. As an ex engineer (from an extremely safety conscious industry) I have been reading with interest the Engineers and Technicians forum and have found that they, like the rest of us they are suffering the ineptitude of the CAA and JAR. I have never experienced the ‘technical’ aviation trade but get a distinct feeling that the CAA under JAR are making a definite backward steps in attitude in comparison to maintenance and safety in other forward thinking sectors.. .Yes. Someone needs to make a stand. Yes someone needs to put there foot down but all the time we are regulated by and unregulated authority we are all at the hands of the CAA and it’s infamous little black book.. .Feel free to e-mail me if you believe that I can be of any assistance to you, I strongly believe that it is time for the CAA to be regulated in matters were they have little knowlage and also in areas where many feel the ‘old boys network’ is prevelant

[Firestorm]

MG,

I sympathise with your experiences with the CAA, but as licenced and fortunately employed pilot at present I find them alot easier to deal with than previously.

I agree that their charges are high, and do need to be justified to customers. But then, in my experience, charges made by profesional regulatory bodies often are (I refer to the various medical colleges, Royal Institute of British Arcchitects etc).

I do find you a little hard to take seriously, however, when I see your profile listing you as "from the inside of a marmite jar" and your interests as getting the brown stuff off the inside of said marmite jar. Marmite jars are brown glass anyway, and maybe until you look outside at the world beyon the lid, your view will always be tainted by brown glass.

Many have tried and many have failed to change the CAA, and only with experience will you come to realise that they work on the whole, for the whole industry, and will make every effort for the individuals with the industry. This is not to say they couldn't improve, but they aren't as bad as they may seem.

As Ex-FTE asks, you do seem to have an axe to grind. Maybe you would be better asking BALPA or IPA to represent your problem to the CAA. Good luck in a succesful outcome.

[twinkletoes]

Would it be fair to amend your 'fact'.. .Learing to fly is expensive, extremely more expensive in some countrys than others.

[ 25 February 2002: Message edited by: twinkletoes ]</p>

[Erm OK probably]

So JB007, your father is one of the bosses at the CAA. I notice you make no defence of him or his colleagues.

What should we read into this and your simple acceptance that we'll never change it? Surely you're too young to be that cynical without good reason. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Sean Dillon]

Have to agree with JB007 on this one....

Mystery Guest - Grow Up!

[Podkel]

For interest, a quick search of Hansard's on-line record of MP statements ...

"The CAA is accountable to the Government and Parliament"

"The CAA has done a splendid job"

"The highest possible standards apply in the UK because of the record of the CAA and its safety regulation group, which are without peer in the world"

... here is the shortcut

<a href="http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/cgi-bin/htm_hl?DB=ukparl&STEMMER=en&WORDS=caa+&COL" target="_blank">http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/cgi-bin/htm_hl?DB=ukparl&STEMMER=en&WORDS=caa+&COL</a> OUR=Red&STYLE=&URL=/pa/cm200001/cmstand/euroa/st010425/10425s05.htm#muscat_highlighter_first_match

[somewhatconcerned]

ENRONS accountants alledgedy had people believe that is was a company to invest in!

[Send Clowns]

I have a friend who has some senior CAA qualifications. He is self-employed as a consultant, and knows one of the top people in FCL at Gatwick. In discussion with this chap it occurs to my friend that this man has no idea how much it costs my friend to keep all his various qualifications current. His automatic assumption is that the company provides an aircraft, and pays the test fee. But what about self-employed consultants and the unemployed? Do the CAA only work for the large companies? That CAA employee came straight out of the services into the CAA, and has never had to pay for flying let alone a test fee in his life.

The CAA and JAA even more so are too far out of touch. I see it in exam questions, and in the syllabus as a ground instructor. I see it in the impossibility of phoning through to anyone at Gatwick (which is a shocking scandal, and more staff are needed if the current bunch cannot cope with enquiries). Better still make fewer errors and stupid rules, and give more information in the website, and give an email address for non-urgent queries.

[somewhatconcerned]

Try phoning the FAA in Oklahoma... you will get straight through to the department you want and resolve most issues in the time it takes to get past the CAA's automated service. In fact I would wager that US licence holders in the UK spend more money phoning tha CAA than they ever do phoning the CAA.

[Squawk7777]

This might happen in the future (of course I could be wrong):

To this date, the CAA has never experienced competition. The more and more countries join the JAA and become JAR compliant, the more countries aspirating wannabe pilots can chose from where they want to get licensed. The only disadvantage I can think of now is the language barrier. Knowing our governments it probably wouldn't take long to adjust the appropriate fees among each other.

I took my ground exams in 97 and I still do not understand what justified 567 quit for the nav exams. If the FAA would dare to do it in the US of A people would walk into OK city with big shotguns!

I returned to the mighty Aviation House in 2000 and to my surprise the examination room is no longer part of the main building. It really seems like the customer is treated well after spending 500 plus quit!

If at least their food would taste good!

[ 02 March 2002: Message edited by: Squawk7777 ]</p>

[Matthewjharvey]

Mystery Guest

I would be happy to support anything that could be done to alert people to just how appalling the CAA are. Having lived and worked in the US for a couple of years it highlights this fact even more. Examples -

Rude, arrogant employees many of which are failed pilots with an axe to grind.. .Same employees unable to do their job because for some reason they are unable to read and understand their own regulations - hence customer getting a different answer for every query.. .Outrageous charges for landing, ATC, licence issue etc.. .On the subject of licence issue - why the f**k do they have to take your logbooks away from you for weeks - this is an absolute scam and outrage which really pisses me off. Why the hell can they not check them while you are there and issue the licence and give it back to you same day.

Basically I couldn't have less respect for any organisation in the whole world. They need to sort themselves out in a big way.

[ 02 March 2002: Message edited by: The Greaser ]</p>

[Mystery_Guest]

I haven't abandoned this thread, just in case anyone was wandering. On the contrary, I am watching and listening with great interest.

There seems to be a fairly heavy weight of opinion here, and it's good to see it being exercised on a forum at last.

I am working solidly (within the limits of my limited spare time) on structuring some ideas about this, so please keep the information coming.

Regarding the stupid profile I have adopted - I am surprised anyone would have inferred anything from it, as you surely wouldn't expect me to use my real name would you??? <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> But, thanks for pointing out that the glass is really brown, when I just thought I was never finishing it....

MG

[Squawk7777]

I hate to say it, but the CAA ain't that bad, IF you compare them to the dear LBA (Luftfahr-Bundesamt, German CAA). No matter how you contact them (writing, phone or in person), please assume that the person in front of you is God. And he/she only works until 1700 local time IF they are in a good mood. Forget Friday! That is already considered as the weekend and on Monday they have SOOOO much catching up to do.... .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="redface.gif" /> Sad World

[Polar_stereographic]

Squawk7777,. .. .But that is no reason to say that the Belgrano is OK. . .. .Personally, I think that they have an awfull lot to answer for, but the problem is that they have a heavy coat of armour and a serious amount of money to defend their legal position. . .. .I'm not saying that they are impregnable (sp?), but there is no one other than wannabies that really wants to take them on. Once passed the wannabies stage, it's in your interest to stop other comming up so as to speak. Plus, your employer financially protects your position such that you don't get too messed around.. .. .Then there are the MP's. I suspect that the general view of pilots is that they are well healed from the upper classes, and therefore do not need any assistance from them. Hmm... Plus, lets face it, in the scheme of things, the numbers are like my PC, tiny.. .. .Difficult one. Been tried many times before, but you see the problem.. .. .PS