job for fresh CPL holder

[tailwinds35]

I got my Indian CPL with 250 hours and Multi engine rating.

I know how this industry works, so anyone in this forum please tell me who I should hump, or whos arse to kiss etc and how much to pay to get job with details. can negotiate but not more than 22-25 Lacs.

greatly appreciate ..

thanks !

[fadedfootpaths]

Try Paramount or Star Aviation to start with!!!

Good Luck :ok:

[jester_icarus]

NO....you don't know how this industry work...obviously...

Shame on you to think that way. Who was your instructor who gave you this career advice?

You have the wrong attitude about aviation buddy....you will have a hard time surviving in this industry with that attitude.

Believe it or not you just insulted a lot of people.

[pilotara]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 250 hour wonder and already giving an attitude. Aren't you gona have a short career

[tian yu]

geeze, you need to re-evaluate if this industry is for you...better do a self check before letting someone else do it for you...THE A HARD WAY!

[Left Wing]

u already have failed the CRM exam...:=

[MaintainYourHeading]

my goodness how can a 250 freshly graduate student think like that and come on a forum that thousands of aviation professionals read !!! This must be the worse attitude ever !!!!
I agree you probably insulted a LOT of people by saying that... Do you realize what a lot of pilots have to go through to make it as a good career ?? And you think you can go on a forum and tell everybody you know how the industry works and ask "which arss to kiss" ??? If you want to be successful around aviation you'd better review your attitude there.

Although I will agree that aviation unfortunately is a lot about relations and having money, it's definitely not by having that attitude that you will create good relationships in the industry !!! And most of it not by going to a company and dumping a whole load of cash and say "give me a job now, let me rub your legs a little and we'll be fine" ... sorry mate to be so harsh, but it's time for a reality and attitude check.

cheers

[jet_air]

dear tailwind.. with ur attitude u can get no where..am sorrry to say that.. but u need to change.. on this forum u hve got one of the best in industry.. for example couple of a380 skippers too.. but despite flying the largest civilian plane on the planet.. they are such down to earth people and pretty simple.. change is for ur own good..

[jester_icarus]

tailwind....

no mas...no mas.....!!!!!

i suggest you take this thread that you started down...this was just Round 1.....

....and take fadedfoothpaths with you... he is giving you the wrong advice..

shame-on you too "feet"

[picollo]

I have a job lead for you.
Try Osprey aviation. The will be glad to take your money.:E

[BetpumpS]

If you happen to be a female and look like those gorgeous Bollywood actresses I see on TV, then contact me.

I have a few jobs you can do ;)

And if you are lucky, I may give your CV to my boss!

In all seriousness, you need to lose the attitude. Even in these tough times, it is still a VERY BIG INSULT.

[KAG]

Tailwinds 35, just out of curiousity, are you a male or a female? It would be interesting to know. If this is the second option I may be able to give you some advices...

When I read your post it makes me realize something: airline pilot is just an other job. No discovering, no challenge, no curiousity, no passion any more... Just a cool job we want to get not to fly neither for the experience, but for the uniform and sometimes the salary.
Hours watching the DU, observing the airplane flying from a waypoint to an other one... Not really exciting anyway...

I envy the ones who are flying bush, aerobatic, fighter aircraft...

[jet_air]

I have a job lead for you.
Try Osprey aviation. The will be glad to take your money.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif


Oh are u talking about the brand new international airline in delhi..
heard they hve got two people in their flt ops .. who do all the jobs ..

Osprey Aviation must be any pilot's dream :E

[aditya104]

Well tailwind
I am an Indian pilot and I do not tolerate such attitude. I earlier vowed on this forum to make the future of Indian skies safe by following all the standards and recommended practices. In aviation, only when everybody follows the rules, the game is safe. Otherwise our passengers are not happy.

Please think about your attitude and think what implications that can have globally if a person like you is given a job to fly in an airlines. Maybe, with present attitude you can' think that far.

Its better for you to change and pick up some books and start studying. If you need any help feel free to PM me.

[Silver Spur]

Guys, just disregard This guy. That really is an Insult, and I doubt if he didn't kiss someone's :mad: to get his CPL.

[aviator_hyd]

woooooooooooooooow!!! i guess you must be doing this for the passion of flying arnt you?? cause uv got lotsa money to waste.... well don put peoples life to a risk by getting onto an airline.

My advise find someone like you who two has 25 odd lakhs to fill sumones ass with and m sure it wont be hard to find one like you and u guys should buy a used cessna 152 or a piper and probably keep flying that for your passion!!

AND THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHOSE ASS TO KISS??

WELL OFFCOURSE THE ANSWER IS YOUR OWN BOY!!!

Cheers!!!

[born1987]

guys well thats enough beside of taunting tailwind we should understand his condition he might have pass out such a long time ago and getting no job and he might had took up a loan which he have to pay back and moreover pressure from parents and others but ya he should understand its worst time going on and he should do some other job or study further till the good times comes and if he willing to pay bribe it doesnt mean he is uneducated and dont know about aircraft. pls guys dont feel bad for this post.

[tailwinds35]

I dont know why everyone is spitting fire on me for what i said ???:confused:
I dont think there's anything wrong in my attitude.
I have 250 hours but that does not mean im a good-for-nothing. I have 250 QUALITY hours. Not fake logging or anything like its done in flying clubs in India.
why does everyone think that just because someone is willing to pay some money he/she is a retard with no interest in aviation ??

and Silver Spur, I DID NOT kiss anyone's ar$e to get my CPL. The only bribes I have paid till now are to those impotent w#nkers in DGCA to process my conversion papers fast.

Not every prostitute is in the business for the love of it, but rather because she is DESPERATE for $$$.

[BetpumpS]

tailwind,

I suggest you tone down your attitude and tone it down now!

Trust me, even though you are behind the safety of a computer screen, your personality will still show up at interviews and any profile tests.

[KAG]

troll?

DNFTT.

[MaintainYourHeading]

Tailwind you really don't get it do you...

nobody here is criticising your skills or your training. I will speak for myself here but EVERY pilot that i know did the same as you and I !!! We all started with training to get a CPL, all earned in honesty and all logged on the hours ! I have now 2000 hours and I will agree that today the only thing I don't have to get into an airline is money ... so far everyone i asked asks me to pay for a type rating !! I have a mountain of loans to pay back to my bank for the next coming years !!! Guess what... i'm not the only one !

Now, good for you if you have 50000US to spend !!! (although type rating doesn't cost that much). But as a fresh pilot, how in the world can you come on a site like that and compare some pilots with prostitutes !!! man please read carefully, so far in all the answers that pilots gave to you, NONE criticised the fact that you are ready to pay for your training, EVERYBODY does it at some point mate !!!!!!!!!!! some sooner than later... what everyone is very unpleased with is the way you are addressing other pilots on this website... and let me guess, not only pilots on this website but people around you.

And Born1987, if Tailwind has been looking for a long time doesn't justify such a behavior !!!!!! I've been trying to get in an airline for 2 years now and still not able to. Do I go all over the place and say this industry is corrupted, the only thing that will give me a job is lick someone's a:mad:s, that too many people are prostitutes and only if they sleep left and right can get their dream job ? I do not believe so ... don't use the current crisis as an excuse for everything, things don't work like that.

[jet_air]

tailwind, 1987—when one posts this sort of question in a professional forum, under whatever circumstances, it naturally raises questions about one’s decision making and integrity in general. Other ppruners have brought to light corruptions within the DGCA with an intent to report it, and to discuss finding solutions to get around it, lessen or eliminate it from the system, not to promote it.
@tailwind, It could be true that DGCA takes bribes for cpl conversion, and the right agents 25 lakhs for securing you a job. It is just not appropriate for you to ask for assistance in looking for agents here. There are pilots and pilot organizations in India and in PPRuNe who are campaigning against corruption in the system, fighting to make it fair and square for all Indian and expat pilots. You undermine their collective efforts by openly asking members to point you to corrupt officials for help. What everybody is trying to tell you is, rethink about it and take your willing to bribe plea elsewhere.


:ok::D....thats exactly what every one is stressing..!

[born1987]

my gosh r u comparing yourself,dgca,pilots,aviation personals with prostitutes?pls even respect your beautiful country u r denoting here your country india.

[born1987]

tailwind you cannot compare pilots with prostitutes this is the worst thing i ever heard.i think u need to take good lesson on how to behave and speak in front of all professional persons.this is not your friends chat room where u can say whatever u want and use words that u want(i request administrator/moderator to pls bann tailwind to post further)because after comparing pilots with prostitutes his next question surely going to be about per hour rate of air hostess so he can enjoy while flying.

[tailwinds35]

[quote]
tailwind you cannot compare pilots with prostitutes this is the worst thing i ever heard.i think u need to take good lesson on how to behave and speak in front of all professional persons.this is not your friends chat room where u can say whatever u want and use words that u want(i request administrator/moderator to pls bann tailwind to post further)because after comparing pilots with prostitutes his next question surely going to be about per hour rate of air hostess so he can enjoy while flying.
[quote]


born1987,

I have a suggestion for you. Please change your nickname to born2007. You dont sound older than 2 or 3 !!!!!!!
Once again, just as I thought, everyone has grossly misunderstood me. :ugh:

I have NOT compared pilots with prostitutes.

Sigh ! No wonder ICAO wants engalish profeciency !

What I meant was that sometimes circumstances force even good honest people to temporarily choose the wrong path.
Just like how some innocent helpless, jobless, girls with no money to run their families turn to prostitution out of desperation, same way .. sometimes some (not all) aspiring pilots have to resort to doing things which they normally would not.

and im not talking about agents or middlemen.
Airlines themselves are doing it. For example paramount.

[jester_icarus]

tailwind (dude...)

i told you to take this thread down...that was Round 2!!!!!!!

ouch...ouch.....

"Aviation....Love it OR Leave it...!!"

[Silver Spur]

Tailwinds35,

I understand your argument that you need your money to bribe the authority to do things smooth and fast, but the fact that you said "whose arse to kiss" etc, does give almost everyone in this forum reading your thread assumes that you really are an arse kisser, don't be surprised if I do think that you used your arse kissing capability to earn your license. Before you shout again, think of these;

1. How mentally retarded are you, as a new guy in the industry, thinking that your money and arse kissing capability is all that you need to posses to have a career.

2. By saying "whose arse to kiss" to pave your way to whatever aviation career you are after, that shows that people in the industry are inconsiderate enough to only consider your money, not you talent. Which of course they are not.

Now, tune your attitude for this industry mate. You either can take this comment constructively by really changing your attitude, or just yell back to me defending whatever there is that you wish to, and insult me in whatever way you can.

CLEARLY, we can all judge who you are by what your attitude is like.

Have a good Day.

Silver Spur

[jester_icarus]

dude...that was Round 3!!!!!!

you're in a spin!!!...Pull OUT!! Pull OUT!!

...dont think..react now...!

no mas ...no mas....

Ouch....!

[Silver Spur]

very well put, i like that! :D :ok:

[perceval]

'engalish profaciency ' ?????????

This is too good to be true . The twit is a natural comedian .

Anyway , there's a good time to reflect on the realities as well . If there wasn't ways to get in through some dubious schemes , those lousy questions wouldn't be asked .On the other hand , if such ......people ........din't become pilots , maybe the schemes wouldn't exist .

Don't you want to use your 25 lakhs for a new brainscan ? sounds like a good investment to me .:}

[NGFellow]

In the current market just having what you term "250 quality hrs" does not make you competitive. Very few outfits are hiring and the competition is tough. Folks are resorting to buying their own type ratings and while that sets you on a higher playing field, it does not mean you will get hired.
Assuming all things being equal, then your connections will help in India.
Otherwise, you have a long wait, unfortunately. It can be 2-3 years. If you can't find a job in aviation move on to something else and maintain your currency as best you can (hard to do in India). Accept any flying job you receive. In the past many freshers scoffed at flying the ATR, in fact refused. They only wanted the AB or NG. Times have changed.

What I find disturbing at times that there are a few CPL holders who actually don't really have a real interest in aviation. They only did it b/c of the potential for income. I had an F/O once you said he got into aviation b/c he was making 50,000/month as a lawyer fresh out of law school. He could make much more as a pilot. His attitude and flying skills were evident.

[Arcane]

I have 250 hours but that does not mean im a good-for-nothing. I have 250 QUALITY hours.

I wish I had 250 'quality' hours. :(

[VIMANMAN]

" If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it......does is make a sound"

If I bribe someone to get my license converted, and nobody sees me, did I actually bribe him"

It seems that most of the people who are writing against Tailwind are from India.
He just put it like it is.....One HAS to kiss arse to get things done.....

Check the result from the last Air India Exam....how many candidates who get thru are Air India relatives?????? and how many are there on merit?????

I've seen over 80 of my friends try to get their lic. converted to a DGCA CPL and each on has paid at least one, some as high as 2.5 lakhs in chai/panee.
WHY?????????


If we want tailwind and other 250 hour guys to stop asking "whos arse to/or not to kiss", then we need to make sure he doesnt have to.....

Ive never seen a 250 hour FAA grad...ask whos arse to kiss in theFAA in Oklahoma City to get a lic.....
WHY
Because you dont have to.....

Why ask that to the DGCA.....because u have to....
so blame the DGCA babus....not Tailwind for saying it like it is.....

[xpto]

Dear VIMANMAN,

I agree with you yankee, but this guy is either trying to offend everybody here or is an idiot !

We, as Capts, have to identify this kind of attitude guys in the cockpit and put them in the position they deserve with CRM of course.

Regards.

[ATR_101]

Tailwinds

250 hours and already an idiot with an attitude no problemo!

tell you what, try to buy a surplus brain and maybe it would function better and help you think a bit more careful. and if you cant find one, use that money to send yourself to school that teaches proper manners.

[jester_icarus]

ding...ding....ding....ding.....

enough!! im throwing in the towel for "tailwind" ..

no way Round 4 will end in a stand-up....

NO MAS.....NO MAS......!!!!

[VIMANMAN]

Hi Xptr and ATR101

Thanx for the quik reply.....


Just for the record, I hold an Indian Lic. ....and flew in India for 4 years....I also paid a handsome amount to the DGCA babus in chai/panee to get it converted ....I was qualified, yet had to pay...WHY????


What exactly about Tailwinds post got all of you gents so upset?
Was it that he asked about the truth....If he would have asked who he should bribe, rather than whos arse he should kiss...wouldtha havebeen acceptable?

In India, we dont talk about Sex as it is taboo, yet we have the 2nd highest pop. in the world, we have the highest rate of AIDS per capita in the world, and a rape rate that is nothing to be proud of, but we still try to portray the 'Sita' (how pure we are).

The same holds true about corruption, We all do it, yet we dont speak about it and when anyone confronts us about it, we berate that person for even daring to ask us about it....
The difference between Sex being Taboo and Corruption is that Sex maybe be ethically or morally wrong, but corruption as well as being morally and ethically wrong, is a CRIME, It is against the law.....but we hide behind smoke and mirrors, and spend our days justifying it....

I see nothing wrong in Tailwinds post.....
I see a lot wrong in the attitude of the respondents....


Thanx


PS I am really enjoying this debate...but its midnite here so ill beback bright and early to respond to any further posts....Good night

[Talon757]

What's wrong with the first post is that the author believes that money, bribes, and brown nosing are how one becomes a professional airline pilot. No sir. They may very well enable one to drive an airplane in some parts of the world but they will never make one a professional airline pilot. The two are not the same thing.

[VIMANMAN]

Tailwind wrote

I got my Indian CPL with 250 hours and Multi engine rating.

I know how this industry works, so anyone in this forum please tell me who I should hump, or whos arse to kiss etc and how much to pay to get job with details. can negotiate but not more than 22-25 Lacs.

greatly appreciate ..

thanks !

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I see this whole issue far differently than most respondents....

No "professional pilot" wants to brown nose, bribe, or kiss arse to get the job done, but In india...one HAS to....


As a "professional pilot", does it make u less professional if you pay a bribe, brown nose or kiss arse....(I am sure there are many airline captains and FOs in India who have paid bribes to get their licenses in india, in fact I am one of them and i am sure I am not the only one). i actaully wonder how many of the respondents who have berated Tailwinds unprofessional attitude have procured their lic. w/out even an xtra rupee leaving their wallet? things tha make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I get the feeling that asking about giving bribes, as tailwind did, is the issue....because many "professional pilots" (incl. myself) have engaged in exactly the things he was merely asking about....YET "Tailwind" is un professional....and we who pay bribes are so called "professional'

Seems to me that "calling a spade a spade is tough thing to do in India"

One question
Is it worse to ask about robbing a bank....or to actually rob the bank.

But i do suppose that if I merely ask about robbing the bank....I am not a professional bank robber....but if i actually rob the bank....then I am a Professional.....(if I use the same logic that has been used on this thread)

Thanx to all for the engaging debate....thouroughly enjoying myself....

[Arcane]

I think I see this whole issue far differently than most respondents....
No "professional pilot" wants to brown nose, bribe, or kiss arse to get the job done, but In india...one HAS to....
What exactly is 'getting the job done' ? Bribing officials to expedite the issue of a license ? Bribing the right person in an airline to secure your first job ? I'm just curious because you come here, openly admit to have committed a crime and then have the gall to ask what the big deal is ! :yuk:


As a "professional pilot", does it make u less professional if you pay a bribe, brown nose or kiss arse. It kind of does... :ugh:

One question
Is it worse to ask about robbing a bank....or to actually rob the bank.
That's a kind of silly analogy. Both you and the topic starter have admitted that you've bribed someone , ergo - the 'bank' has already been 'robbed'.

[agent123]

Arcane,

If you and many others who posted earlier, think that in India one does not have to kiss ar$e or bribe to get things done, you got to be kidding yourselves !
I mean , come on ! gimme a break gentlemen !

I know Line Captains and TREs happily flying A320s and B737s who had to shell out a big a$$ amount of dough for various things from the very beginning of their careers.

One of these captains had to shell out some 3 lakhs cash to get his DGCA and WPC work done and about 15 lakhs to get into Air India. and keep in mind this was in addition to using some political contacts and also in the early 90s. Right now, all of you would be shocked to know how much one has to pay for clearing DGCA papers, RT and to "overlook" minor stuff in Class 1 medicals !!!

But let me tell you very clearly before you all start shooting off again. This captain (now an A320 P1), is one smart chap. He knows his **** when it comes to aviation. He loves his flying, and all this stuff related to aerodynamics, navigation, weather etc.
His flying capabilities are way above average, he holds an FAA CFI, II and Multi Instructor Ratings and has some 1500 hours "dual given" time to his credit.
He loves to teach, which is why he got his FAA instructor ratings.

and yet, despite all his qualifications he had to kiss ar$e big time and shell out $$$$$. Thank heavens none of the DGCA babus and clerks that I know of so far are gay !!! :E

Now, coming to the point.
If this same Captain would have adamently chosen to remain pure and honest and never ever give in to corruption and paying bribes etc, what do you think he would be doing now ?
Still wa#king off like every other wannabe off the street for several months (or years) hoping for some miracle.
now he is happily married with 2 kids, well settled with a good bank balance and would have absolutely no problems even if he is grounded anytime.

Totally agreed with VIMANMAN,
most of those who scolded and admonished "tailwinds" are all wannabes who are yet to clear their exams and convert their licence and Im sure atleast 70% of people in this forum have resorted to paying under the table to get their Indian CPL or first job.

[VIMANMAN]

Red questions that were asked by Arcane
Bold Vimanmans Answers

Quote:
I think I see this whole issue far differently than most respondents....
No "professional pilot" wants to brown nose, bribe, or kiss arse to get the job done, but In india...one HAS to....
What exactly is 'getting the job done' ? Bribing officials to expedite the issue of a license ? Bribing the right person in an airline to secure your first job ? I'm just curious because you come here, openly admit to have committed a crime and then have the gall to ask what the big deal is !

Getting the job done means just that, If you see Agent 123s post....he explains about an successful airline pilot in india who got the job done....when you are duly qualified (meaning having the hours and having passed the exams and whatever else is required as per DGCA norms) and still are not issued a Lic, because you dont grease the right palms....and then greasing the right palms......that means getting the job done....
And Arcane, if you havent done that yet.....you will, else your chances of having a long and successful career in india are slim to none....

Quote:
As a "professional pilot", does it make u less professional if you pay a bribe, brown nose or kiss arse.
It kind of does...
If paying a bribe makes a pilot less "professional".....then I bet 80% of the pilots flying in India are not professional

Quote:
One question
Is it worse to ask about robbing a bank....or to actually rob the bank.
That's a kind of silly analogy. Both you and the topic starter have admitted that you've bribed someone , ergo - the 'bank' has already been 'robbed'.

yes you are right....the bank has already been robbed....but my ? was.....is it worse to just query about robbing the bank.....or to actually rob the bank.

With all due respect Arcane, It seems you have not had to deal with the DGCA or Air Carriers in India very much.
I obviously do not know for sure.....just making an observation or inference based on the content of your post

[teusel]

ha ha..all u guys r on a roll it seems!!!!!awesome....

[VIMANMAN]

I'm havin a great time tooooo

[jester_icarus]

..im throwing in the towel......

so long.....

[captaan]

I mean this whole industry is all about bribing and a$$ kissing.

Airlines bribe DGCA for various things (FATA for expats/Indians, expediting licences, to bend various rules like FDTL etc)

Airlines pay bribes to ministers/political parties for their benefit.
Airlines pay bribes to Newspapers to print sh!tty articles about their "massive expansion plans" and for other fake marketing purposes

this is the worst time in Indian aviation with so many jobless CPLs /pilots.

bribe will not help because no jobs exists.

and all this started when government started making money in aviation .
2003 and onwards.
before it was :ok:

[AvEnthusiast]

Ok guys me myself I also think that a prestige of a pilot should be really high and a pilot should neither pay nor receive bribe. I really, really hate anykind of corruption and never tried to get inovlved in it, even I have delayed one of my aviation related project back home for 5 years so far becuase of this corruption. But I have always wanted to be a pilot and recently I came to change my dream to reality and I travelled a long distance unaware of anything (other apsects legal, school tuition, contracts, etc all settled) to a country which is called Philippines to get my pilot training. And here a pilot who has 10s of thousands of hours of flight was acting like ... me as a student pilot tried stop him and persuade him to grant some honor to his profession by saying this profession is not only about money it's about inspiration ..., it was really annoying me, but he kept on saying that being a pilot is all about money. And finally I was urged to pay him some cheese just to issue my student pilot license. Now what would you do in this kind of situation? I'm sure you can not tell me give up everything, you know the consequences yourself being in a foreing country, paid upfront shcool tuition, etc. But of course me myself I still grant honour to this profession and want to stay clear and will never intentionally pay to get my job done.l

[Lee]

Tailwind35

Quote: I know how this industry works, so anyone in this forum please tell me who I should hump, or whos arse to kiss etc and how much to pay to get job with details. can negotiate but not more than 22-25 Lacs.

I have been flying for 26 years and must I say I seen the likes of you.

You think you know everything, just 250 hrs and you seem to know-all about the aviation industry. BTW, did you really fly or bought your licence? (Now, you are offended, but you didn't think you offended so many peope by your earlier comments.)

Oh, about the arse kissing part - my advice to you young boy, go kiss your arse goodbye.

Capt Lee

[havai_jahaj]

i dont know wht this drama is all about, everyone here knows tht we have to bribe to get things going.... corruption and aviation are like sun and earth, no matter how much u rotate(run) u have to face the sunlight at the end............tht too time to time!!!

[VIMANMAN]

Hi

Thanx to all who engaged me in this debate about Tailwinds 250 hour logbook and 25000 hour attitude....
Enjoyed myself.....

Mera Bharat Mahaan

[babboo57]

vimanman,

in case u didnt notice -though u did try very hard to engage everyone- the moment
the likes of u entered the debate, most self-respecting individuals withdrew. if sex
is taboo in india, i dont see it being done in the open in your yankeeland too. very
much restricted to the privacy of closed doors. similarly if u want to kiss someones arse,
hump or bribe someone as u and others did , please dont do it in full public view as the
rest of us here really dont think its going to be a wonderful sight to watch or hear. and
by the way, this youngster - who thinks he has arrived with his quality 250 hrs and
fathers money - asked u for some advice. we really didnt see u or the others supporting his cause, give him that advice and tell him exactly where to go to service the only u know who. could be that u did that by sending him a personal message, which would be the only responsible thing u would have done so far.

[VIMANMAN]

Red = Baboos Post
BOLD= VIMANMANS Reply

vimanman,

In case u didnt notice -though u did try very hard to engage everyone- the moment
the likes of u entered the debate, most self-respecting individuals withdrew. if sex
is taboo in india, i dont see it being done in the open in your yankeeland too. very
much restricted to the privacy of closed doors. similarly if u want to kiss someones arse,
hump or bribe someone as u and others did , please dont do it in full public view as the
rest of us here really dont think its going to be a wonderful sight to watch or hear. and
by the way, this youngster - who thinks he has arrived with his quality 250 hrs and
fathers money - asked u for some advice. we really didnt see u or the others supporting his cause, give him that advice and tell him exactly where to go to service the only u know who. could be that u did that by sending him a personal message, which would be the only responsible thing u would have done so far.


I was only trying to engage those who were interested in being engaged.....All those self respecting individuals who chose not to participate, I applaud their decison as well.....
and as far as Tailwind goes....I did not send him a personal message....(but its actually not a bad idea....haha).
You are right about the Sex thing....Here in yankeeland, we also do it behind closed doors as you do in India, we just dont hide when asked about it.....

All I was saying was that I didnt feel Tailwinds ? was as off track as a lot of you did.....i actually kinda thought it was a relatively fair ?, regarding what the state of affairs in india is, but I do agree that he could have asked it in a more civilized or less crude manner.

Once again....thanx to all you Non "self respecting" folks who participated in this debate....

[Challenger05]

Its been a pretty heated thread to say the least... :)

Well I too am a ’still wet behind the ears’ CPL holder with somewhere close to tradewinds’ experience... I sure don’t have the kind of money he has (though it would be nice to have it) but I guess I am in the same situation as him... :ugh:

He has been pretty well reprimanded by all concerned for saying his piece, which fundamentally was not totally off the mark but his fault I guess was that he didn’t sugarcoat it or dress it nicely as we all have become used to...:O
His statement whether made as a joke or seriously; have a shock value and have clearly struck a chord which no one can deny...

I confess I do not know the industry too well,I am a junior and learning. My knowledge is based partly on second hand info (what I have heard from my seniors, peers and others in the industry in responsible positions) and from my limited experience with the DGCA. I do not go by what I read in Indian papers coz they; as most of us know call a aerobridge hitting a stationary aircraft "a life threatening accident" and "near death experience for passengers"… :D
I have been following the events that have been taking place in Indian aviation for a longtime now and have made some observations of mine that i would like to share with others.

Please bear in mind that what I am stating here is from my personal experience and from what I have seen in the last couple of years....
Fact is that in India we definitely have a 'holier than thou attitude' but we are open to bending rules to accommodate those who have influence be it with money or otherwise.

I guess we guys are hardwired that way, if we are told something cannot be done we don’t accept it as gospel, but go about trying to find ways around the hurdle, some call it our strength some our weakness. But at the end of the day what remains is that we DO BEND RULES to suit us. :ugh:


I know of people clearing their written exams without appearing for them, people getting endorsements without the requisite hours/training and people getting into airlines simply because their parents/relatives are in positions of influence. To say to the contrary would be incorrect. But to paint everyone with the same brush is also wrong.

Fact: Paying will get your license without hassles. I was told by agents that they can speed up my work at the DGCA when I applied for my license conversion and some of my friends did "avail of this facility"!! :cool: I didn’t have the cash; as it is since job offers weren’t exactly raining from the heavens I was in no rush and went through the official procedure. It took me little more than a month but yes I was made to run from pillar to post to get documents that did not seem to make any sense (can someone please tell me why the DGCA wants me to get my 10th standard board authority to give a letter saying I am more than 18 years old when my marksheet says so?? also isnt my passport proof enough?? :rolleyes:) and my pals who used the agents didnt have to do a lot of this running around.

Fact: You do need some inside "help" to land that first job (more so in India because unless you are Chuck Yeager reborn you too have just the same 250 hours on cessnas like everyone else), but please tell me where in the world does this not happen? Even if you are in the States if you knew the chief pilot personally doesnt it give you an edge, even if it is simply his telling you what to expect in the interviews? Would you not say that it is unfair to candidates who do not know him??? I guess this happens everywhere only the degree varies. No system is perfect and like it or lump it its upto you...

As Vimanman mentioned about the AI's recent selection things were done that was not completely transparent. I too was disappointed but let’s be practical if it were a private airline I guess this would have been accepted without any hitch since they reserve absolute right to take who they want.
However this being a govt owned and operated airline people specially those like me expected some modicum of merit to be considered. 18 year olds were selected when Engg graduates were there, people with prop experience were not called for interview while those with just 10 hours of multi time were taken despite the ad saying grads and turbo prop will get preference.


FACT: Paying will get you the first job. Whether you pay for your own TR or for an agent. Consider paramount’s case. No one is saying that they are wrong in asking trainees to pay for their type rating but is it morally correct for them to milk the fresher simply because he is in a fix? Would they have dared to this back in 2003 when it was hard to get anyone? worldover the norm is (and please correct me if i am wrong) that an airline takes your after assessing your learning curve and then rating you and keeping you with them on a bond.. Eventually isn’t he going to work for them? Is paramount really so desperate for cash that it needs to resort to these schemes? Aren’t merit and competency again taking a hit in this?



Everyone here is going on and on about how pilots especially senior captains should be professional and set an example for the fresher. But where are these same captains when it comes to helping and mentoring the fresher?? I do not hear anything about them telling the airline that it’s not morally correct to squeeze a trainee or going even a small distance to help him out..

In India we are expected to build experience but with GA as good as nil how is one supposed to do that?? For years when the boom happened people were taken to A320 right seats with barely the ink dry on their licenses... This led to everyone with money and "the passion" to fly to go for their licenses abroad.
Now this lot is coming back to a situation where there are no jobs and the one recruitment that took place in a very long time was also not transparently done.. I do not for a moment say that people who got in are not good, but the manner in which this was done did more damage to the reputation and morale of the rest than any benefits the airline will ever accrue...This has led to a lot of heartburn in youngsters like me...

I am not trying to assign blame anywhere, things are how they are and those who are now searching for jobs will have to wait a long while for openings (if they did not take the pain to research and learn about the cyclic nature of aviation it’s their fault) but one expects a level playing field and not to be handicapped simply coz we don’t have the money or know some big shot...

I do believe that Tradewind crossed a certain line with his language but do not think that anything he has said was incorrect. So I would like to ask everyone who is not a pilot in India/aspiring to be a pilot in India or has dealt with the situation down here first hand please lets not judge tradewind or some of us on the basis of his first post alone. He is simply saying how we freshers with no 'godfather' to get any airline or major scope to improve our skill and knowledge in out own country are feeling; albeit without being politically correct…

I am open to constructive criticism and other points of view and these are solely my views maybe others have had better or worse experiences in India and I would like to welcome them to share it with us… after all isn’t that the whole point of having this forum…to find someone with more info, experience and knowledge to guide us??? :)


Cheers
:ok:




I live by a code and the code is simple…. Don’t hit something unless you plan to hit it and even then be gentle for heaven's sake!

[VIMANMAN]

Nice Post Challenger05....


You hit the nail right on the head.....and that too very eloquently....