airlines who ask pilots to pay to fly !

[dartagnan]

I can not believe that some airlines sell hours to their copilot.
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?

Is it legal from a company who turns their business into a flight School or Flightclub?
if it was legal, where is their TRTO certificate or something to prove they can train students(and no pilots, because real pilot don't pay to work)?

HOW LEGAL IS THAT ??????is the CAA corrupt or what? how much they( CAA administrators) receive "under the table" to keep their mouth shut?

Why the CAA accept hours flown from these students (pilots) when time building has been done illegally?

Who is guilty? airlines? the CAA or the Government?

Do you think passengers are willing and happy to pay money to a "type rated student" to fly a 40T Jet?knowing he will take 0 responsibility...(oh!, I am paying to fly, they can't do anything against me, so I don't care if I screw up).

At least Madhof didn't play with your soul, but with your money only!


Please, explain me in WHAT :mad: WORLD WE LIVE?

[captjns]

i can not believe that some airlines sell hours to their copilot.
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?

Where have you been for the past 20 + years:rolleyes::confused:??? where are you going to be for the next 20 years:rolleyes:?

[One Outsider]

Pilots are selfish and egotistical. They would sell their Grandmother if they thought it would give them an advantage.

It's a fact, airlines know it's a fact. They use it to their advantage. Pilots then bitch about it while dropping their trousers and bending over.

[captjns]

Pilots are selfish and egotistical.

Egotistical and selfish?!?!? Sir I find your statement grossly outrageous stating the character of many within our industry!

A pilot’s choice to pay to play is his/her own. It’s not you or me to stand in judgment… that sir… would not only be egotistical… but arrogant to... as I find your statement to be!:=:=:=

[No RYR for me]

i can not believe that some airlines sell hours to their copilot.
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment? As long as we have pilots buy their own TR's... :}

[One Outsider]

Well captjns, or Captjns as it really should be, where have you been the last 20+ years?

Stop living in times long gone. Character is no longer desired in this industry. It is now frowned upon

Screw or be screwed is the new motto.

[747JJ]

One can just choose whether to be screwed with or without lubricants. With lowcosts you will be charged if you choose the latter option.

[captjns]

O O

Well captjns, or Captjns as it really should be, where have you been the last 20+ years?

Line training on the fluff acting as a TCE on the fluff with a US carrier... where were you?

[bjet]

I have one view on this matter. An airline who chooses their pilots on the only basis who will pay for their training, are in my opinion not a workplace with a bright future. On top of being not willing to invest in training, the T and C´s also are in the same manner. Companies will have difficulty in retaining their talent and experience if they have employees who paid for the job and do not think they owe the company sh..t.

[mona lot]

Anyone who pays to WORK is a ****ing idiot!

If you want to pay to fly, go to your local flying club.:ok:

[757_Driver]

Quote:
i can not believe that some airlines sell hours to their copilot.
How long pilots will accept this kind of treatment?
As long as we have pilots buy their own TR's... http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif
Well if you sancitmonious lot want to wind your necks in for just a minute and think before opening your mouth, how many professional level careers (career, not 'job') do you think you can get right now (not 20 years ago) without paying. Any guesses? I'd suggest, ooh, roughly zero.
Even a basic batchelors degree from a middling university is going to run you about 25 grand these days. Then what? Take a lawyer, Law school fees for example costs you alot - no salary and no job offer either at this point. Then a solicitor will do 2 years 'articles' on a salary that is pretty much minimum wage, Barristers will not earn at all (i,e work for free) and may have to pay some money to do their pupilage - oh my god - what horror - fancy demeaning yourself and paying to work :rolleyes: Anyone ever heard of 'internships' - much sought after training oportunities, often in the finance industry, in top companies - guess what - they don't get paid either
Accountants, doctors (OK - they are paid by the ever generous NHS in the UK), teachers will all do postgrad training on low or zero salaries with not inconsiderable risk. So perhaps you can all stop whinging and thinking the world owes us a living.

Granted paying for hours is probably taking it a little far (although as i've said is little different to a barrister), but paying for the 1st type rating - find me an airline that doesn't do that one way or another. Even BA put cadets on a low salary for the first few years - you end up paying for the first rating one way or another.
There are some airlines around that have incredibly dubious employment practices - getting the newbies to pay for the training is not really that high up on the list of worries- or shouldn't be.

[Bealzebub]

Another point to bear in mind is that the experience levels some of these pilots present with, would never have found them a "proper jet job" historically. In the past most operators of jet aircraft would have sourced their first officers from both the military and those civilian pilots who had worked their way up through air taxis and later turbo prop operators, presenting themselves with at least 2 years experience and upwards of 1000 hours turbine experience.

This accelerating trend of "vanity publishing" jet co-pilot training is a great revenue set up, in that it not only substantially reduces the flightdeck cost element, but actually generates revenue from a non revenue seat. If companies could do away with 2 pilots they certainly would, but that is a complete non starter. This way is even better. The right hand seat is occupied by a revenue generator who actually subsidises the cost of the left hand seat.

I wonder how long it will be before a way is found to get the left seat to generate revenue in a similar way? I expect it is being seriously thought about. Only when an accident or serious incident occurs where (even though it may not be causal) this practice causes "Daily Mail/SKY News" type public outrage, will the regulators, operators and insurance industry run for the nearest rock, and restrictions to these practices will be brought in. However that will do nothing to provide "jet jobs" for these ridiculously low hour pilots, but will perhaps reverse a dangerous trend.

The advent of new generation jets with sophisticated autopilot/navigation and management/operating systems have made the real time role of a pilot much easier, to the point that the inherent skills and experience are no longer viewed as the pre-requisite they used to be. This is a mistake that will bite from time to time. The industry needs a more "Back to basics" philosophy and it needs to act quickly in my opinion.

[captjns]

Only when an accident or serious incident occurs where (even though it may not be causal) this practice causes "Daily Mail/SKY News" type public outrage, will the regulators, operators and insurance industry run for the nearest rock, and restrictions to these practices will be brought in.

Don't recall any accidents with tyros at the controls... Seen alot of accidents at the hands of the so-called experienced be it ex-military or ladder climbers. But incompetence is a subject for a different thread.

I don't really understand the revenue thing being subsidised by the F/O for the Skipper though.

[Bealzebub]

Read it again, including that contained within the brackets.

To illustrate the "revenue thing" Captain £100,000. F/O £58,000 = £158,000.
Captain £100,000. F/O =£0 =£100,000.
Captain £100,000. F/O = Paying £25000 to sit there = £75,000.
In the latter case, F/O not only no net cost, but actually subsidises left hand seat cost.

[PA38]

I am going to get flamed, but... This is perhaps one of the only industries that depends on your own or your parents bank balance, rather than skill.
Before I get shot to bits by the better than thou police.. It's like driving anything, with the correct training ANYONE can do it.
I feel for the people with lots of natural ability but from the wrong background, and they find out too late. They can now afford lessons after years of dreaming and toil, but it's too late to advance past a PPL. Yes I consider my self the latter. How many who are now bitching about the way people are getting into right hand seats, have also paid one way or another??? it's all about money no matter who pays....

[RoyHudd]

Not worth flaming.

[sapperkenno]

PA38, I think it's unfair to say there is no skill involved. There is a basic level, and some people just have more of a knack than others I guess. What's all this about your own natural ability, and wrong background??

Guessing you're from the UK (as I am) that is just a fact of life, and you should already know this going by your age. It's the way things work there, and more so now, with these silly people who fall for all the bullsh*t told to them by the big name CPL/IR places, who feel they are better than everyone else as they will go to a great school, then get a jet job with 250hrs TT. Good for them. :ugh: Pilot's are seen as a higher class in the UK, flying an elite pursuit, and the old boys network and class system is still in force.

I had enough of that crap, so moved stateside, where flying isn't as elitist as in the UK, and with experience and time, any job is open to pretty much anyone. Sure they have airline academies, but they still have good old spit and sawdust flight schools which teach you the art of flying, as opposed to the UK way of saying FREDA,HASELL,BUMPFICH etc at every opportunity, instead of using your hands and feet and controlling your airplane to a good standard while knowing what your doing, and why you're doing it. GA is also doing well here, and you can still make a worthwhile career doing more of the hands-on (more skillful?!) flying you're familiar with from your PPL.

There is an apparent lack of skill in contemporary commercial aviation, what with perfectly serviceable Airbii ploughing into the sea, 737s stalling on final, MD83's flying towards hotels instead of runways, crews landing on taxiways, MD11's cart-wheeling down runways etc etc. There are also more than enough light 'plane "weekend fliers" with their "I'm a stick and rudder, not autopilot guy" who are still killing themselves turning base to final and in other "simple" flight regimes.

I see what you're saying PA38... I fly tailwheel and aerobatics, and am a proficient pilot regarded by my peers as "a good stick" having a good feel for the airplane. I always have, it comes easy to me. (I'm not blowing my own trumpet) :} I have numerous friends, two in particular are from the UK, who either trained with CTC or Oxford Aviation Academy, and 80 grand later are now flying an Easyjet A319, and 757 for Thomas Cook. So yes, bank balance is important, and it may be about money to get with the big boys, but that doesn't mean you can't be just as good a pilot flying a light twin around (at night in IMC :\), or flying precision aerobatics on a weekend. It's what you make of it. The grass is always greener, and it's not all about flying fighter jets with the RAF, or a 747 for BA.

My own view is that EVERYONE with a fATPL should simply say b*ll*cks, and don't pay for anything other than their licences. If nobody was willing to pay for a TR, what would the airlines do? Stop hiring..? I doubt it. As long as pilots are willing to accommodate them, the airlines will still have the upper hand and be able to call the shots.

[Shadowsonclouds]

"If nobody was willing to pay for a TR, what would the airlines do? Stop hiring..? I doubt it."

sapperkenno; lovely theory, but with everyone so desperate for a job out of training a union of 'no TR until YOU pay for it' seems a little distant. As you rightly say the airlines do have an upper hand.

However I've always believed that not enough is being done by the government regarding fATPL studies. I'm sure with the new tax system in uk (50% over 150,000 income), cutting VAT from the cost of an integrated ATPL zero to hero wouldn't really make a significant impact on the desk of Mr Darling? This would save thousands for the individual, probably enough to Include a TR at the end!

It seems Joe Bloggs, who has always dreamed of being a Pilot but hasn't been blessed with a financially sound family really has to pay through the nose to make his dream come true. Might be a little easier with a bit of help through the Tax office...

Just a theory....maybe a little distant too!!

[JJflyer]

Mercenary Pilot. I was just going to point Captjns to the Thomas Cook incident. There are quite a lot more occurances that have not resulted in an investigation but have been close calls. A friend of mine is flying mostly with so called "Cadet level pilots" he says that their performace or attitude apparently leaves a lot to be desired. Most of them would have never gotten a job flying a jet had they not paid for their own type rating.

[captjns]

JJ and Merc... what was the experience level of the guys about to land on the hotel roof in DUB? Uhh the KAL crew that flew a perfect approach to the Guam VOR??? and then there was the lastest and greatest into AMS??? and then there was.... and.... and....

Over the past 30 years, I given line training to the so called 250 hour wonder birds who were legends in their own minds. After some attitude some motivating speeches and adjustments all was good. Those who did not come to grips of the real world... lets say they went on to bigger and better.:rolleyes:

JJ and Merc... either you guys are too young or to old to remember that back in the '60s US carriers hired the same 250 hour wonder birds with a commercial ticket and in some cases no instrument ratings and are now the sky gods of today... and yes some of them drove their jets into the ground too.

[JJflyer]

Dear Captjns

I wont be drawn into a meaningless discussion about the experience levels of pilots in different accidents and incidents. Just to remind you, it was you Sir, who brought up the lack of accidents or rather that you don't recall any and you where corrected on the matter.

Further, you are somewhat mistaken on the subject or at the least interpreted my post wrong either by mistake or on purpose.

This thread is NOT about low time pilots but about those who pay their own ratings in order to get a job.

If you read my post again, you might find that my comments where about the latter group. You might also find that the low time pilots "Selected" by airlines where screened carefully for their aptitude (Not to say that HR garbage departments got it right all the time) and not for their financial ability or the size of wallet daddy has. These days, especially with the worsening economical situation, the financial ability seems to be much more important to some low cost operators than suitability of the candidate.

There are however situations that one could consider paying a rating. Lets take a 10000h pilot flying large commercial jets and wanting to move to VIP flying. He or she gets an offer saying that if you are rated on a G550, here's your job and you are on salary now. That could be a tempting proposition especially if the type rating cost is tax deductable partially or the salary covers the incurred cost in a short time. However for a low time pilot with 200 something hours, it is a huge gamble. Personally I could not recommend if there was no guarantee of a well paid job. These days it is unlikely to get a job such as that and more like it they will end up paying for sim assesments, line training and their own upkeep during and after release.

Edited to fit what I really wanted to say.

[captjns]

JJ says... I was just going to point Captjns to the Thomas Cook incident.

JJ further says... I wont be drawn into a meaningless discussion about the experience levels of pilots in different accidents and incidents as it is not relevant about the subject.

Well???:confused:

[JJflyer]

Since you insist. I have now corrected my post.

[wobble2plank]

Sadly it doesn't come down to skill levels or ability to fly. It comes down to the bottom line of some faceless pencil pushing (read Excel bashing) accountant who can entice people to pay for a Type Rating or, even better, Line Training with a scant whiff of the promise of a job at the end of it.

Once there the whiff disappears into the morning mist and the next paying TR applicant sits in the still warm seat.

With the current state of affairs, coupled with FTO's seeming to continue to see the fabled 'pilot shortage' on the horizon and have the ability to sell that better than an East London car salesman in a sheepskin coat can sell a knackered car, there will always be applicants. They feel that paying will give them the 'edge'. Who can tell, maybe in a few years time it will.

This won't change. The airlines have got hold of the bone and it will take a lot to let them drop it. Airline flying is not the most demanding of flying. In fact, after many years flying various types, I have to say it can be downright dull. It does however, in the correct airline, pay the bills well. That will be enticement enough for lots of applicants.

[captjns]

Since you insist. I have now corrected my post.

Never insisted... just wanted to know you views.

Lets take a 10000h pilot flying large commercial jets and wanting to move to VIP flying. He or she gets an offer saying that if you are rated on a G550, here's your job and you are on salary now.

Apples and oranges... new tryo paying for a type rating on a 737 or Airbus, versus a current qualified captain on the 737 or airbus.

Not going to happen JJ. Insurance companies and corporate flight departments won't permit it do to no time on type (check the job boards)... and the cost of the type rating won't permit it... and why would a B737 type rated pilot pay for a type rating on a Gulfstream, or any other jet whilst there are BBJ jobs available?

[757_Driver]

[quote] This is perhaps one of the only industries that depends on your own or your parents bank balance, rather than skill.[\quote]

rubbish, utter rubbish.

If you don't understand why then I can't be bothered to point it out.
Some of you obviously have a massive chip on your shoulder about low hour FO's and I must say many of the arguments in this thread are very inventive. Utter crap, but inventive nonetheless.

I suggest you all go and try your arm at another career, as you can obviously just walk into to everything else with no cost, no risk and no training.

[wobble2plank]

He or she gets an offer saying that if you are rated on a G550, here's your job and you are on salary now. That could be a tempting proposition especially if the type rating cost is tax deductable partially or the salary covers the incurred cost in a short time.

If I wanted to move from the Airbus to a G550 with an established VIP company then, to be honest, if they wanted me to pay for a type rating, I wouldn't even contemplate the employer. Type rating costs are tax deductible to the employer. Add to that that an employer with 'in house' training facilities can offset training costs against aircraft operating costs as they can ensure the 'trainee' has been trained to specific company SOP's.

As captjns has already alluded to, a pilot in that position is not necessarily taking his piloting ability to the new company but his experience as an aircraft operator and, with that many hours, as a Captain. This experience will directly affect the operating costs of the aircraft via reduced insurance premiums based upon the aircraft commander experience. It doesn't have to mean experience on type at this stage in a career, unlike at the start of a pilots career.

There are an awful lot of factors that govern who may do what in the cockpit of large jets. The CAA govern many with regard to heavy crews, rest and who may be relief Captain. The bean counters through the insurance companies dictate what limits may be flown by whom in what aircraft to keep the insurance costs down. If an operator wishes to make money out of RHS ab-initio training then those costs have to be very carefully juggled against the increased insurance risk of conducting training for a pilot who may not then join the company. One prang lasts a lifetime in the memory of the company that has to pay for it.

Rest assured, if the insurance costs start to outweigh the monies paid by the trainees then either the system stops or the trainees pay more. Only time will tell.

[JJflyer]

Well I certainly moved from one type to another and had absolutely ZERO time in the type I moved to. No insurance hassle what so ever. Comparable experience in a larger type more than compensated for my lack of experience in the type I now fly. Mind you I did not pay for my rating though. It was paid for by the company.

[wobble2plank]

JJFlyer,

Erm, that was exactly my point. If you have experience then zero time for another aircraft isn't a problem.

If you are ab-initio then it certainly is as the insurance policy for the aircraft often dictates the bottom line for experience.

[JJflyer]

Check PM Wobble. My last post was meant for captjns

[fade to grey]

here we go again,

Is it not about time this forum was restricted to professional pilots, not PPLs, not spotters etc...

[Boing7117]

I am going to get flamed, but... This is perhaps one of the only industries that depends on your own or your parents bank balance, rather than skill.

Well of course you need money to get through the training - regardless of which way you go about getting the training.

You see, the "skill" element you're talking about here shouldn't just refer to the skill required to fly a plane. It should be extended to include the skill required in thinking ahead about your future aspirations - what you want to do and how you're going to do it. That's the skill. As you say, people like yourself get too many years down the line and can't past a PPL - wishing they'd only had the foresight to do it all a bit earlier (or had the finances earlier).

Too many people on this forum have a long and lengthy habit of shooting down those who've stumped up the cash to get into flight training.

I had to find the cash from somewhere - but my parents didn't have tens of thousands available for me to help myself to. But I also started out on this journey when I was 14 years old. I had to plan my education - whether I was going to go to university or not - thinking ahead - knowing the cost of flight training - weighted up against the cost of university.

I had to get a job after I left school - earn the cash - save it all up. Then ten years later I was able to afford to learn to fly.

Back to the original point - airlines are always going to find ways of cutting costs - paying to fly is just a natural extension of the already-in-existence system of joining an airline on a reduced salary or with a bond. It'll continue to develop and expand as long as it makes the airline money.

..but those who've been in the industry a long while and keep piping up that it's the "new" generation of qualified pilots that are reducing pilot salaries and diluting the industry are living in cloud-cuckoo-land. What do you expect new pilots to do exactly? Insist on NOT paying for their TR? I tried that - but even when I joined my airline, clearly it was evident that I was paying for my TR - albeit over a number of years with a reduced salary / bond. It's the world we live in - it's the nature of the industry - and rather than blame newly qualified pilots about dumbing down T'c & C's - take a long hard look at yourselves.

Try asking yourselves - how did we let it get to this stage...?

[Bealzebub]

A few days ago I asked:
I wonder how long it will be before a way is found to get the left seat to generate revenue in a similar way? I expect it is being seriously thought about.

Not long (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/371990-trss-taken-new-level.html) it would seem.

[African Drunk]

I am a senior pilot at a large biz jet operator. I am and have always been vocally anti pilots paying type ratings. The problem is that we have so many people offering and more importantly many of our competitors do get pilots to pay. This makes it impossible to construct a case with our MD that we should operate in a highly competitive market £100,000 down on our competition.

[Imperator1300]

If they knew (and they don't), I wonder how paying passengers would truly feel about an inexperienced and 'yet-to-be' professional flying them home on a stormy winter evening?

Perhaps the same way they may feel about a 'yet-to-be' professional dentist with the drill in his hand?

Imperator1300

[SW1]

"Perhaps the same way they may feel about a 'yet-to-be' professional dentist with the drill in his hand"

Go down to to the dental department at Guys St Thomas' in London and see 4th year dental students working on Joe public, who's looking to get free dental treatment- the booths are full to the brim.:}

[Imperator1300]

..or 'yet-to-be' hairdressers (as we used to do whilst at Naval college many years ago). There were risks, but we knew and these were balanced against a free haircut (like your Dentists in London, but unlike the pax).

Imperator1300

P.S. There were also benefits to meeting 'yet-to-be' hairdressers ;)

[clanger32]

Whilst I fully accept that Joe Public may not be entirely happy about someone who has offered to pay to be in the pointy end, there are two things that I think worthy of note here:

1/ A pilot who has paid for a type rating necessarily HAS the qualification to show that they are safe to fly commercially. The comparison with a trainee dentist, therefore falls apart, because one HAS the professional qualification, the other is working towards it. Further, as has been pointed out - and ignored - endlessly, there is no such thing as a truly "paid for" rating any more. Either you stump up the readies out of your own pocket up front (a la Ryanair) and get a reasonable wage, or the employer pays the TR, but you get a reduced wage for x many years, a la BA. In neither case is the TR "free" - you're paying for it, it's just how.

2/ There is a deeply unpleasant implication in these posts that anyone who has paid for a TR themselves is -defacto- an unsafe pilot, whereas anyone whose company has paid their initial TR is a safe pilot. The flaws in this logic are huge and obvious. If you can't see the elephant in the room of this argument, there is little hope for any of us. A 200 hour graduate is a 200 hour graduate and liable to make the same mistakes regardless of whether they can pay for a rating or not.

Granted, there is an argument that says perhaps those with the cash to pay a rating are able to steal a march on those who are more able, but less cash rich, but then it's equally true to say that the most competent of pilots may be able to afford a TR and the monkey who took 15 attempts to pass CPL can't afford it (especially if they had to pay for those extra 15 attempts!). All of this of course, is based on paying your TR to land a job. The world of line training schemes is a different beast altogether - and a loathsome one at that. But, then - who is to blame for the rise of these?

[White Knight]

I think most of you have forgotten "bonding" whereby the airline type rates you and you're bonded a certain amount that degrades pro rata with the months until after a certain time you no longer owe the airline any money if you then resign.. No lower salary either!!

I've never paid for a type rating and I've collected a few now:}

[clanger32]

White Knight - I quite agree. EXCEPT that newbies nowadays (if you can find an airline who will pay the TR at all) are expected to accept the bond AND the lower salary. BA being the obvious example I can think of - as a low hour (i.e. no previous type rating) pilot you can expect your starting salary to be £31k, whereas if you enter having already had a TR you start on £48,500. Figures from PPJN, here: British Airways jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways)

The story is roughly similar at other airlines....if the operator pays the TR at all, the newbie will summarily drop their pants on salary for a defined number of years in addition to the bond. Not necessarily UNfair - but you can see that for your first TR nowadays, you WILL pay for it - by hook or by crook. The only "choice" is whether you'd prefer the hit upfront, or over four/five years....

Admittedly, once you're past that illusive first job (and I say illusive, as I'm busy trying desperately hard to get that break) the bond is the way forward

[batman123]

I agree with the post above, but it is still better to be paid for a type rating than being paid. the big advantage, even if you make less money, you don't have to borrow the cash, and if your airline collapses or kick you out, you have a free type rating.

the second problem, is not about paying for a type rating or not, it' s to pay for everything included line training and block time.
now airlines sell 300-500-1000 hours for a lot of money.
in fact in this job, you never make money as now people pay to work...

if we don't do anything, soon, captains will have to pay too.
only flight attendants refuse to pay, because they are smarter:Ethan you.

Pilots who pay to fly don't understand why they are kicked out of the company after having paid for their first 500h :hmm:.

[BigNumber]

Please excuse my 'thread creep' but I have never been furnished with an answer to my RYR question.

Do BRK guarantee a minimum number of hours to their RYR drivers?

In Biz Jets ( my area of expertise ) we refer to this as a 'fix' . For example: Many EU owners guarantee at least 10 days per month.

If there is no minimum days fix then surely RYR can just keep selling Type Ratings / Jobs without a care in the world. So what if your pilots only get 10 hours a month?

Great little earner isn't it?

I have no hidden agenda in my question, I would just be curious to know if my assumption is correct?

[Boing7117]

What about Flybe?

TR paid for on the Q400. Bond reduces over 3 years and you're liable for a pro-rated amount should you leave within this time.

No reduced starting salary either.....

[BigNumber]

Strange; yet again my question is unanswered!

[clanger32]

BigNumber -
I'll have a go at answering, although this is based on what I have read and I have no real definitive and scientifically based answer.

I believe the answer is no, there is no guaranteed minimum number of hours. However, the payscale is set such that it is very much in FYR's favour to fly those with less than 500 hours TT over those with more than 500hours.

The current favourite rumour is that this is being leveraged - and once you hit 500 hours, you can expect a big downturn in your flying hours. Meanwhile, more and more are recruited into the hold pool.... all lends credence to your assumption that it's being used as a profit centre.

All of that said, I have to say that I see more crap talked about Ryanair than almost any other subject - and I subscribe to the "backed-up-toilet-information-network" (Butt-in?) So who knows.

Boing 7117 - RE: FlyBE - I'd love to work for them and yes, you may well be right that there is only the bond to consider - but the money there really isn't a very good return on an £50k + initial training investment. That said, still have your arm off for a chance - just trying to point out that it's not that you're earning great money and not paying a TR. It's also very much the exception, not the rule (I believe)

RE: the point on having the employer pay the rating, being a better bet....is it?
That surely depends on your perspective....if you have the cash to pay a rating, then personally I'd rather pay up front and have the extra cash.... Clearly however, if you've exhausted all your captial/credit getting the initial training, then not paying a TR is a massive benefit Taking the BA scheme details I mentioned earlier, I'd far rather pay £20k up front for a rating and be on £48k than have them pay for the rating and be paid £31k a year for any more than one year....but I believe the lower pay rate is maintained until you un-freeze - so realistically at the very least two years...

[BigNumber]

Ahhh, the fog clears! Thank you Clanger!

I guess the BRK contractors are depending on RYR's moral fortitude!

[Rananim]

Please rename the thread "Pilots who let airlines charge them to fly"
No but seriously,as long as you have pilots with such widely divergent views(dartagnan vs 757driver) then you will of course have airlines exploiting the situation.This issue can only be protected by the power of an union.
757drivers view is very dangerous IMHO.Never pay to fly a commercial aircraft.Pay for training if you have to and expect low remuneration during probation but never ever pay the airline to fly.Its a very dangerous and immoral concept.Just which euro companies are doing this?

[Clandestino]

Once upon a time, those who lived to work were unable to affect the terms and conditions of those who worked to live.

Sadly, this story doesn't end with "happily ever after."

[dartagnan]

bignumber,


usually airlines don't respect contract.
I have been in airlines who lied, and change the contract after you sign it, or asked you to sign or kick you out. You sign the contract, but they never sign it.
they all do that! and if you want go to court, they know most guys don't know the legal procedure, or don't want take a lawyer.

If they find you to be part of an Union, they won't hire you.I quit Balpa for this reason...cuz if you part of Balpa, it's much harder to find a job.
So your question about minimum hours?ahah, another story to attract wanabes.

[paddingtonbear319]

""cuz if you part of Balpa, it's much harder to find a job.""

That my friend is complete an utter BS. There is only one major airline who doesn't recognise BALPA but it won't be long before they have to.

I have now flown for 4 major UK airlines (as a result of sept 11) and not once have I ever been asked if I was a BALPA member.

So when you make that major clanger, which we all will, who is going to stop them taking your house and car and maybe your wife and kids when they drag your sorry ass out of court.

Freeloaders!!

[clanger32]

Hoi! leave me out of it, Paddington! And I'm only a corporal....:}

[lexxie747]

SO WHEN YOU MAKE THAT MAJOR CLANGER, WHICH WE ALL WILL ????????

Speak for yourself mate, i hate freeloaders and fatalists

[Spunky Monkey]

Sorry Dartagan - Do you have a job?

[ibelieveicanfly]

I will never pay for a rating even more paying for flying(except aeroclub).I have a family to feed.that's it

[clanger32]

IBICF,
I applaud your morals. I applaud you for taking a stand, however, I think you are badly misguided unless you have already past the hurdle that the first job and first rating represents. If you are through training and looking for a first job, as I am, then I rather suspect that you will struggle badly to find anything at all over the next couple of years. Even more so if you consider that you WILL be paying for the rating if you join an airline with a "bond" and a reduced salary.

This isn't the way it should be. This isn't right. This isn't fair. This is, however, life and life, as my mum used to tell me everytime I wasn't allowed whatever it was my five year old fingers were trying to grasp, ISN'T fair.

I wish you all the best of luck, but suggest for a newbie a more pragmatic approach may yield better dividends. You have a family to feed - well having paid a wacking great sum of cash to train to CPL/ME/IR and never getting a job through a moral stance won't do that either...

[dartagnan]

yes, I got a job finally...but I don't mention anymore if am part of Balpa or not. I let white or I answer "no".

BMI asked me this question years ago in their application form.
go to ryanair, and say you are part of a Union...!!!they have ejection seat now in their new 737, remotely controlled from their office!:eek:

[Spunky Monkey]

I am glad that you now have a job.
I wish you the very best of luck with it.
Is it aviation based? :)

[Kelly Hopper]

Clanger 32.
Unfortunately because the precedent has been set it is not just the 1st type rating you will be expected to fund. The rot continues now throughout this miserable career and you can look forward to being asked to fund all ratings til retirement! Then what will you live on?

[clanger32]

Kelly,
I suspect you may well be right and if it continues unabated then I think it's incredibly sad. Hopefully - HOPEFULLY - at some point the pilot body will take a stand and say no more....we will see.

However, I personally think we're already at the point where us newbies need to accept that we will be paying for that first rating one way or another.....

Once the first rating is done, you may or may not be required to pay or contribute to subsequent ratings - but if you've had the first I think you've probably got a fighting chance of getting your own way if you take the moral high ground and refuse to pay!
Such a shame. I really honestly hope it stops before there is nothing left...

[Flintstone]

You can still get on in the industry, albeit a bit slower, without buying a TR/job. That's how it used to be done and those paying into these schemes help perpetuate the rot.

The 'anti' argument used to be that by paying out to these companies you would weaken T&C's in years to come. While that still holds it seems that pay(back) day arrives sooner than that. I've spoken to three RYR first officers this week and all said their flying (and therefore income) has been reduced since they passed the 500 hour mark and the next wave of job-buyers were given 'their' flying. Two were in debt up to their eyeballs and are unsure if they can make their repayments on their reduced income.

I'm resigned to the fact that there are some selfish people in this world who will do whatever it takes to get what they want and to hell with how it affects others. It now seems that, rightly some may say, it will affect them first.

[Kelly Hopper]

Clanger.
Well we agree wholeheartedly on that but I find it difficult to see the future as upbeat. This industry got on a slippery slope a decade ago and it shows no signs of letting up.
Incidently I recall an old employer who tried to bond me for a rating I already had! Took a while to get them to see sense but I still paid for it in the end!

Flinty.
So with the likes of RYR about you can see yourself spending 50-60k on a licence, 20k on a type, line training pennies, etc. only to find yourself on a hugely reduced income after a year because of the way YOU did it? With lost income etc. that is about 100k spent to earn a minimalistic wage at the end working for a bast@rd company. Why Why Why are flying schools still in business? :p

[pilotmike]

Boeing7117:What about Flybe?

TR paid for on the Q400....
No reduced starting salary either.....

Flybe use £570 yearly increments on the payscale, and year 4 salary is £31405. Doesn't the year 1 salary of £25060 instead of the expected £29689 and the similar reduced salary in years 2 and 3 look suspiciously like a salary reduction of over £8000 for training costs to you? Even in year 4 onwards, their salaries aren't exactly top notch, given the large outlay most will have made to train.

Initial type ratings are invariably paid for by the newbie in one way or another. Sometimes it requires you to peer just slightly below the surface rather than simply accept information at face value...

[Boing7117]

Thanks pilotmike

You've just ruined it for me.

.......and here was me thinking FlyBe were looking out for me and giving me a helping hand on that aviation ladder

:)

[Flintstone]

Flinty.
So with the likes of RYR about you can see yourself spending 50-60k on a licence, 20k on a type, line training pennies, etc. only to find yourself on a hugely reduced income after a year because of the way YOU did it? With lost income etc. that is about 100k spent to earn a minimalistic wage at the end working for a bast@rd company. Why Why Why are flying schools still in business?

Sorry, you've lost me with this one. See myself.........:confused: I can't see myself spending on TR's or line training. Never have, never will. I went the self improver route, paid my way as and when I had saved the cash. How does that contribute to the current **** state of things?

I agree with you on the b@stard company comment though. Some of them are shameless.

[dartagnan]

bastard company, I call that bastard block hours sellers...

go to you tube and search for "pilot shortage", amazing the videos shouting there is a pilot shortage in the world, and airline are so desperate.

that's the main problem, wanabes don't have a real clue of what' s going on.
Once we start to spend money, we have to spend more or loose all.

if you pay for hours, don't be surprised when an airline kick you out for another stupid copi-monkey with money!

[His dudeness]

I wonder why the role of our rulemakers has not been mentioned yet - in the "why do they put the pressure on us" way.

WHY does my ATP expire?

WHY do my T/R´s expire?

WHAT is the role of professional pilots associations in that?

WHO has a vital interest in putting that kind of pressure on us?

Whilst ANY civil servant could become e.g. a member of parliament for, say 8 years, and then has a guarantee to get his job back with NO lost seniority, I can not, because I won´t have a licence to fly with any more.

I´m not saying airlines did steer legislation in that direction, but they certainly are not sorry about it. It is high time we change to the FAA way in this matter.


I paid for my ATP, I have never paid a T/R and I won´t do so in future. I was DO for a small operator and I never took anyone that offered to fly for free or substandard T&C´s. But African Drunk has a point here, my next competitors did use selfpayers and even charged them for checkrides and all the mandatory courses, and they are still around whilst the company I worked for is closed (for other reasons, but I suspect if it would have been a better cash cow....)

[Kelly Hopper]

Flinty.

Sorry, 'twas a comment on your comments.
Replace "you can" for "one can!"
I was generalising. :eek:

KH.

[Clandestino]

I can't see myself spending on TR's or line training. Never have, never will.

And what will you do if your company goes bust and only ones employing are demanding SSTR with no waiver for those above 10 000 hrs but with all the wrong or expired ratings? If they ask you arm and leg to return you to currency? I'm not pointing it at anyone specific, I'm just telling you that not caring about newcomers and terms they are given can eventually bite back the old hands.

I know I won't pay... because I'll be unable to.

[clanger32]

I do have to say it's easy to to criticise those coming into the industry for paying ratings etc, when you're nicely ensconced in the LHS of a jet and earning bloody good money. Further, it's also easier to criticise those coming in, when you didn't have the same financial burden to entry that now exists.

In all honesty - and NOT trying to justify it - but ask yourself what would you do if you had just spent upwards of £50k to get your licence....as Dartagnan says, you either pay more to get the job, or you flush the whole bundle of used £50s down the pan... Or perhaps a better idea is to consider - as Clandestino suggests - what you'd do if the unthinkable happens and you lose your job, only to find your only option is to pay. It's easy to take the moral high ground when you're on the high ground already....It's NOT so easy to be moralistic when everything you've worked for is about to go down the plughole.

I think we all agree that paying to fly is a bad thing. I think we all agree we'd like it stopped, but unless and until someone does something it's here to stay and will only get worse. Personally - I think it's absolute bollocks to think the way to stop it is to call for all newbies to just stop paying -totally unworkable because there are too many people with too much invested. And that means people will always pay, because they can. The way to stop it is to stop airlines offering it as an option.

[Anonymus6]

paying for line training is getting harder these days. It is not easy to get loans as before, and turkish CAA has changed the rules for expat first officers. Now you need to have 500 hours Multi crew flying in a two crew aircraft. So no low timers anymore,,, Remember turkey use to be a big place for JAA low timers that was seeking line training.

But there are always some airlines that pops up suddenly that want to start charging money for line training. An emaple would be a recent company in Armenia is taking money for Airubs 320 line training. :ugh:

Good luck

[Flintstone]

I've been banging on, ad nauseum, for years against buying TR's and paying to fly. Almost fifteen years ago I was offered a turboprop job providing I bought the rating. At the time I had 2500 hours, was bashing around the bush in C210s and C402s and was ten to fifteen years older than my peers so if anyone could have legitimately bought a career 'catch up' I think I could. I didn't. I've since refused more jobs than I can remember on the same basis. Did it slow my career progress? Undoubtedly, so please don't try to tell me I've no right to criticise this abhorrent system or those who feed it and then complain.

Buying TR's and jobs was around when I got into this industry albeit in a less prevalent form. I knew before I started my training and I planned accordingly. Many others have done the same and on the way have had times where we've taken jobs, even outside aviation, to pay our way and there's the difference. Some of us didn't just worsen our financial position by throwing more money at the problem. It's melodromatic to say that you'll flush £50,000 down the pan if you don't get an airline job immediately. Your licence won't just evaporate. How about biding your time until something else comes along? It's worked for thousands of others, what's changed in the last few years?

If I sound unsympathetic then maybe that's what fifteen years of telling people, who won't listen, how they're screwing the industry does to a person. I'm a patient man but a decade and a half of being told I'm wrong only to eventually see I was right......I think 'I told you so' is quite a restrained response. I'm not gloating, in fact I find it very, very disappointing and would much rather have been proven wrong.

Maybe if people stopped wanting everything now, now, now and refrained from looking down upon the 'lesser' jobs like instructing, air taxi work and the like they might find more support. Perhaps accept that they'll have to tread water for a bit, drive a lorry (done it), work in a warehouse (done it), sit behind a desk (done it), work in a pub (done it) until a job comes along instead of stamping their feet the 'oldies' might feel more inclined to respect their efforts.

I'm just telling you that not caring about newcomers........

That's so far off the mark it's funny. I come from a background where people help each other out, a system I've benefitted from and contributed to. To my mind that's what one (thanks Kelly) does for others and because that's what others did for me. The more I look around the wannabee forums though the more I see people trying to work out ways to screw their peers which is very sad.

If the unthinkable happens? I'll do the same as I've always done and refuse to pay. Why do people find that so hard?

[His dudeness]

clanger32, I worked my butt off to get where I am. Yes I make good money NOW. Yes I´m in the left seat NOW. NO, I don´t take it lighthearted.

I started my 'work life' as an electrician. That earned me the money to get a PPL and part of the CPL. I worked 8 hrs in a factory and then spent hours and hours at the airport, gaining experience with 10 minutes hops to/from the maintenance base. I de-iced airplanes, I cleaned them, I helped the maintenance shop, I fueled them. I was around the airport for the better part 3 years to make enough money and time to get the IFR and finally landed a job as an F/O and I got the T/R on a KingAir. (in 1991, which was not a good time for Pilots as well)
I flew said KingAir for quite a while, did my FI, ATP and Longrange whilst doing so and got promoted to DO and MM.
I earned it the hard way.14 to 18 hour days where simply normal 7 days a week. Try to be DO/MM/TM/GM and Pilot as well as CRI and CRE for a 2 Aircraft/4 Pilot organization then you know what I talk about.
I´m sure here are quite a few people how have C.V.´s that are similar to mine.
Nowadays I receive applications of people that are 20 years old with an fATPL and that are willing and able to pay for a T/R. (actually its Mum and Dad doing so - one can tell because they went from School to flightschool).
These are people I´ll never employ. They are a thread to me and employment.

How can you think I didnt have a financial burden to carry? Yes, the ATP would have been a little cheaper, but in a regular job one earned also quite a lot less.

The sad thing is, the flightschools will still pump out a steady stream of new kids.

[clanger32]

Flinty,
Don't think you're wrong at all. I think you're very right indeed. However, where I think we're missing each other is that the fifty grand isn't "throwing money at the problem" - it's the base stakes now. It's the very minimum to even be in the game. You ain't even playing the game without spending that money - pay as you go or pay in one lump sum, make no difference - find £50k or don't "work" as a pilot. This £50k gets you the basic licence. The queue jumping bit is the NEXT bit of expenditure you're now expected to make - be that the £30k TR at Ryanair, or the abhorrent line training schemes.

"throwing £50k away" may seem a bit melodramatic to you, but it isn't actually....because if [one] was to take the moral high ground and refuse to pay for it, then you would never work.

Your own story is a testament to high morals, but unfortunately is not shared by pretty much the entire remainder of the industry. The bottom line, unfortunately is that if you did lose your job, as with any poor soul in that position your morals (or flying career) would last exactly as long as your bank balance allows. When you are refusing to answer the door, because it's someone in a brown coat come to take your possessions, I highly doubt anyone would be turning down a pay for a TR scheme...

[clanger32]

his Dudeness,
you'll note from the side panel that I too am no spring chicken. I too worked my ass off to pay for my own training, with no debt.
However, as per reply to Flintstone - how much did your licence cost you? Could you do the same thing now? I doubt it - but that's a question you need to ask yourself having REALLY looked at it. The thing is you look at it through retrospective eyes, not from the viewpoint of "how would I do it now".

I am full of admiration for anyone that works their ass off to get what they want/need, but your story hails from 1991, by your own admission....how long would it take you of that life to fund the £50k(ish) it now costs? I agree, people want it now, now, now and this is bad - indeed to my mind, one of the root causes the economy is in it's state. But the problem isn't with those people who start flying at 18, or the parents prepared to pay, it's to do with the fact that working as a sparky and then going to the field, whilst trying to live in an economy such as the current one is just about totally unviable now. That option has been just about totally removed by inflating costs of accomodation, living, flight training in particular, that has not been matched by associated rises in income - but people still live in the mistaken belief it IS viable. You're basing your expectations of peoples behaviour on what YOU did in 1991 when finances were substantially different. When a three bed detached house could be had for less than £60k. When flight training cost what? £20k? God knows I'm not seeking to validate the pay to fly generation. It is wrong. purely wrong. But the point is that working as a sparky now and generally trying to follow the route you did, would probably take C.10 years. And you're STILL faced at the end with either a pittance as an FI (again, for the record, which I think is wrong) or by paying. Stop living in the past, recognise the current world for all it's myriad of wrongs IS different and we may get some way to understanding WHY people behave the way they do. And once that behaviour is understood then perhaps the resolution can also be found. But whilst people just purely think that behaviour is driven by an unreasonable desire to NOT do "what I did - they don't know they're born" then it's incredibly easy to divide and conquer and it will never get better.

[Mikehotel152]

For what it's worth, I think Clanger32 has presented an erudite and factual run-down of the situation facing many newly qualified pilots. I could say more about how few real options are available to people like us but I fear I would be repeating what has already been said by Clanger32.

[Flintstone]

Thanks for not doing so then Mike, nothing worse than en echo.....echo....echo......... :rolleyes:

;)

Clanger. You CAN get into this industry without paying for a type rating. His dudeness is evidence of that, he's just written that he is deliberately biased toward those avoiding the buy-a-job route so to say it can't be done is not true. I've also been involved in recruitment for several years on the panels for companies you'd certainly have heard of and I did the same. I prefer self-improvers because I find them more committed and, having often worked in different branches of aviation, more rounded. A definite plus in the bizjet market. Many of the first ones are now flying Gulfstreams and Globals, others working for large airlines and none have paid for their type ratings or line training. I'm with His dudeness, anybody offering to buy a type rating and doesn't take the first hint goes in the round filing cabinet under the desk.

Anyone who says it can't be done is either fooling themselves or lacks the mettle to knuckle down to jobs they see as beneath them.


Edit. Just a couple of days ago I met a PPRuNe member and thoroughly nice bloke at Farnborough for an intial look around the place. He's keeping his full-time job to finance his training and knows this will take him at least another year and a half and he'll take whatever flying work he can without buying a job. That's the sort of person who I like to see get on.

[clanger32]

Essentially there are two points here, the first being about whether or not someone that offered to pay for a TR should be given a chance and the second being about whether the old school, work-hard-at-day-then-go-to-the-airfield-and-wash-planes approach is still viable.

The former - well, I've hired many, many people into different positions, but I haven't ever been involved in airline recruitment. Therefore all I can say is that I accept your greater experience in that field - although I think it's very, very dangerous to assume that a self improver is necessarily better than others. My guess is that the "best" talent, will actually be evenly split - but as you'll be aware, recruitment is always subjective and you, I and uncle Tom Cobley are at liberty to use whichever factors you wish to differentiate between candidates.

The latter. Well, I think you consistently miss the point around how bloody expensive it has become to get into the game. I don't know whether you think I'm lying around the average(ish) cost, or whether you just choose to ignore it. But it's a moot point, because with [genuine] respect, I seriously doubt you would stand up on a public forum and say "yeah, actually given how much more it costs now, than when I did it, I wouldn't be able to have done it same way". But rhetorically speaking, COULD you do it the way you did it now? Could you fund that fifty grand for your initial licence, whilst holding down two jobs?

As an example, following the Dudeness's reply earlier, I did a little [not very in depth] research - an average electricians salary apparently is around £14700 (which I hasten to add, I think the website may have wrong). Now, that leaves us £11800 p.a. after tax if we assume a £15k p.a salary. Less than a £1k a month. You seriously think you could flight train on that now AND live? A quick calculation and I reckon if you were prudent you could possibly squeeze 2 hours a month out of that. So, 75 months to even get the hours required to start a CPL - before we've got to the expensive part!

You are of course right, in that half the problem is a reticence TO do it, not so much that it's not possible. But I just ask that you stop and consider how many years you'd have to work to fund your training if you started now. It's all very well complaining that it's just the same noises again and again and again, but that doesn't stop those noises being true! Likewise, the deafening pining for a bygone era when the option TO work your way up the ranks is equally tedious.
The bottom line is the cost is [virtually] prohibitive to the routes you and the dudeness took now. People just cannot afford to spend £50k and then spend another 3 years earning maybe £20k as an FI whilst you wait for air taxi, or a turboprop job to come up, to earn - again - rubbish money.
This is where the problem comes in. I agree it's immoral, but this is why people pay for the ratings - because it gives them the pay back on the investment.

Unfortunately I can't really say what I want to, without taking pages and pages. Which I can't be arsed to write, which I suspect you can't be arsed to read and I'm pretty damned certain you wouldn't even partially agree with anyway. Therefore it's perhaps best discussed over a pint at some point, should we ever meet. FWIW, I don't think our perspectives are actually too disaligned.

[Flintstone]

£14500 a year as an electrician? Apprentice maybe but certainly not a qualified electrician. I also refer the learned gentleman to my ealrier post and the guy who came to Farnborough, a prime case of working and paying for training at the same time.

Why shouldn't the newly qualified shouldn't work their way up? How many professions can you think of where newly qualified people immediately earn the same as those with several years of experience? Even lorry drivers usually start off doing something like multi-drop in a white van (been there ;)) before driving 4.5 tonners (that too) then 'proper' HGV.

Agree to differ? Of course. See you for that beer sometime.

[wheresmyelephant]

Clanger, it is still possible. Spent years saving, got licences by going modular. Went to work as a rampy while applying for work. Got nowhere with applications (as i never offered to pay a type). Saved more, became an FI wasn't afraid to take the first job offered. Worked as FI on crap wage, took opportunities to fly pleasure flights and aerial work whenever it came up. Kept my nose clean and worked hard. A regional job came up with no question of paying out of my own pocket. Still where I am and slowly climbing the ladder.

This was all within the last five years, so it is still current. Have friends who have gone about it exactly the same way. None of us have paid ratings. It just takes a little tenacity.

[Clandestino]

actually given how much more it costs now, than when I did it, I wouldn't be able to have done it same way

My thoughts exactly. I got sponsored through CPL + fATPL and didn't have to pay for my first rating. But it was in 1994. and 2000. respectively.

[clanger32]

At risk of starting another really long reply, which I don't really want to do...My view has never been that the old-school route CAN'T be done any more, it's more "whether it's viable to do so" or not. For me, I believe the only people it is viable for now are those that can pay their initial training costs without taking any debt, who are also prepared to lead no kind of life for several years until they finally get to a decent wedge. This rules out anyone that needs to service debt, anyone that wants to have a reasonably nice accomodation, anyone who wants a reasonable car, anyone who wants holidays or nights out with mates, anyone that has a family etc....so with so many ruled out, why are we complaining about the lack of people prepared to do it that way? That route is dead or dying, because as training costs rise, the rewards of doing it "the hard way" become ever more unworthy, in comparison to paying to get into Ryanair and having £40k+ within two years.

two final points - 1 - I Never said it was impossible to do training whilst working, clearly that's possible and a very practical solution to funding training....but how you fund training is not the point, the point is that it will still costs you a min of around £50k, whether you have that in the bank, whether you earn while you learn, or whether you borrow the whole blinkin lot! It's THAT £50k you have to get a return on.

2 - The sparkys salary - I would agree...I think the website have it wrong...I even said as much, but I'm only reporting what's ....errr....reported! TBH, even if you double it, it still isn't much cop and I doubt you'd be affording more than about 3 hours a month....so fairly moot anyway - the point is you're still looking at more than 4 years just to get to being able to train for a CPL... (link here: channel4.com - Bricking It- Job Profiles - Electrician (http://www.channel4.com/learning/microsites/B/brickingit/training/job_profiles_e.html))

[dartagnan]

today someone told me:
"disgusting!!, with all the money, you , pilots paid, you have to prostitute yourself"

I replied "no, it s worst, prostitutes are paid"

guys, we are under**** cuz we accept it!!! (nous sommes tous des sous-merde)

[Caudillo]

Actually Dartagnan, you made a couple of very good points.

Eventually this whole thing will bottom out, at which point it'll become too unattractive for anyone to bite, except for those so deluded that they're unable to pass the initial medical.

[P-T]

Am I missing something?

This inst a desk job, this isn't pulling someones prolapsed colon out and stitching it back up, this is being a Commercial Pilot. This is a great job (albeit being slowly choked by the management) but never the less it may seem crap that you're paying for your TR and first 150 hours but even those paying for the flying are in a very privileged position compared to the hundreds that have not managed to get anything. I know of 300 people gone through my FTO in the past 12 months, only 69 had guarantee'd jobs on starting the others were completely self sponsored, so they have already paid for the profession.

From the comments on the board previously I'm going to assume that there are a lot of wannabe's shouting their mouths off. That's fine, but until you have the balls to man up and fork out the cash to pay for your ATPL and possibly TR and then on top of that, have the determination and ability and dare I say it skill (and whoever that monkey was earlier saying that you dont need skill and anyone with enough money can do it, well quite frankly I find it offensive that you are stealing my oxygen, get off microsoft flight sim and get a woman, then a job then I'll talk to you) to compete the course then you do not have any idea what you are talking about.

Peopple pay for the TR and 150 hours as they want to get a foot in the door. The money they will earn in the next 6-7 years will be more than enough to clear their debt and they will be paying it off whilst having a fantastic time in a very respected and most importantly rewarding job.

I welcome any abuse, as all I'll say is, "sorry, what aircraft are you current on?" and unless it is pressurised then I'm not going to take you seriously.

[doubleu-anker]

Airline operators who indulge in this sort of despicable behaviour, are no better than drug dealers who prosper at others peoples desperation and misery.

[Kelly Hopper]

Clanger
I think you have made a clanger over your cost/prices appraisal:
This business has always been dificult to get into and the first problem for all is raising the funding to get going.
I have been flying since 1983 and I can tell you it was damn expensive then too. I begged stole and borrowed, sold everything I had and started my PPL. 1/2 way though I ran out of money and had to beg the bank to let me finish!
I then spent 3 years "Hangar Ratting." Cleaning aircraft, fueling,some maintanance even but got to know the industry and earned virtually nothing.
The next few years were spent doing anything I could to pay for flying. I've done all of Flinty's jobs and a few a wouldn't care to mention all in the name of flying. I had no home of my own and lived off beer and sandwiches from the pub I was working in!
The cost of a licence at Oxford or Perth, (the only fulltime way) was £45k then. So don't give me all this "it was so much cheaper" nonsense.
And consider what we were all earning then? A fraction of todays wages! In those days the only way to get a bank loan was to have a 30% deposit, show consideral disposable income and convice the bank manager you didn't need his money!
Somehow, though sheer persistance I guess I got there but it took me a long time. In my professional capacity I have flown single cessnas and twins, turboprops and light jets. All for next to nothing. I can honestly say that I only started earning reasonable money 4 years ago. I never actually paid for a type rating and never will. (not directly anyway). I have though, spent an awful lot of money and made enormous sacrifices to be part of this game.
I never saw it as licence to 737 to command in 3 years.
So please stop wailing that you find it hard to find 50k and then life is a bitch cos your only option is to pay another 20k for your jet rating.
Life is a bitch for all of us in this chosen career. It always has been and always will. But how about getting your head around the possiblity of using that flying licence to fly rather than just another ryanair or easy sheep?

[Bleedair]

Guys, life is not fair. There is always someone with a better looking girl, someone winning the lottery, someone that has better skills or even more money than you. It's just life.

Even back in the ussr life wasn't fair. Stop bitching and accept the facts.

In the end it's all about luck. Maybe in your next life you'll be born with ****loads of money. Or you start right now by working your butt off and creating your own luck.

There is/has and always will be tough competition in this business, just make sure you stay on top ;)

[wobble2plank]

To all those who 'dream' of the 'dream' job.

It is a good job. The glamour, however wears off after a short while and the reality of the constant scheduling, long days and difficult approaches in bad weather kick in.

Whilst everyone on the outside looking in sees the shiny bits, it's not until you do this job day in, day out that you see the work involved. Still, taking all that into account it is still a good job.

However, those that join now to live the dream will, in 10-20 years be the Captains lamenting the drop in conditions. It was a fantastic job when I started, flying hours per month were far lower, substantive pay was far higher, the respect afforded pilots was there however, sadly, it has eroded year upon year. That was in the days where NO-ONE paid for their Type Ratings and still the animosity between management/accountants and the 'expensive' pilots grew. Now we have wannabees beating the door down to the training department with fists full of cash begging to be allowed to fly the big shiny jet on the apron. Not content with that they are then shoving money under the noses of the accountants to sit in the RHS for 100 line training.

So, please tell me where this will take our profession in the future? Simply downward. Eventually the job will become so poorly paid, for what is at the end of the day a job with many anti-social hours and requirements, that the source of well heeled wannabees dries up. By then we will all have an almighty uphill struggle to return to where we are today let alone where we want to be.

What happens now to those who 'dream' with big piles of cash or debt will have an almighty impact on those in the industry over the next 10-20 years. Don't forget that people like O'Leary are the millionaires by exploiting you, there are very very few (if any) millionaires who have made their money purely from professional flying.

I am not having a go at those wannabees who think they can get their nose ahead by buying a TR and line training. It is human nature to try and get an advantage. The organisations that promot this scheme are the real villains. Lets be honest here, which system do we think benefits our profession the most? The system of selection based upon ability, character and compatibility or the system based upon who has the most money to complete the expensive course?

You decide.

[P-T]

Not sure if that comment was aimed at me?

Quote "i am not a pilot and your talking bull ****..glad your not flying aircraft fool.... "

If it was then just read my profile.

I'm just fed up of people complaining and whinging. I don't like the situation more than anyone else but people will do what they have to do get a foot into the door.

Between you and me ;) , BALPA aren't particularly happy with this situation and there are already shifts in the company I'm working for to change this.

[clanger32]

So, couple of points - Kelly, fully agree my figures may well be incorrect - however, they are based on a number of things....firstly, I started looking at Professional training in 2006. The costs (of the courses I looked at - not necessarily representative admittedly) have gone up between then and now by 14%. I find it unlikely that these have been the only price hikes since 1991. If that was mirrored consistently, then the course price in 91 would have been C £28k. Alright, hardly scientific, but...
Secondly, I noted a post many moons ago by WWW, where he stated the course costs in y2k as C.£45k. For all the faults, I do tend to think that WWW knows his onions on aviation topics.

Incidentally, if we extrapolate the 14% growth in costs over three years figure, then year 2000 costs would be (by my, highly unscientific method) ....£45k. Hmm..
The £50k I mention is only my stab in the dark at what the AVERAGE cost of an fATPL is....FTE is nearly £100k now with the fx rates against them, OAA is >£70k

But, ok...I accept I may have been a little over enthusiastic in my estimation of costs.

However, the flaw I find is that you're still expecting people to do it the way YOU did it. But the world has changed and the rules that once applied, are no longer applicable. It is still possible to do it that way, but the fact is, that you're paying for your morals [which, btw, I don't think is right] if you refuse any job with a bought TR or a reduced salary. And that's not fair to your family - for me, I don't feel I have the right to ask my wife to support me whilst I earn £15k a year for three years, when shes supported MY dream this far anyway. I think you could make a good case to say that you're paying for the type rating anyway, for someone that FIs until someone offers it to them for free....you're paying for it in lost income. I fully agree that by going this route, you're not worsening Ts&Cs longer term, but you're still paying

For my money, it's academic anyway, one, two, ten even a hundred people refusing to pay won't stop the pay to fly phenomena. What we need is companies to stop it, we need people like P-Ts company to push Balpa to control it. I know, I KNOW the replies will say "but if all newbies refused to pay..." which is true...this would kill it stone dead. But so would all TRIs refusing to train anyone that's paid for that seat....and I know which one should be easier to make happen...
one is like herding cats, the other is showing people the direct effect they're having on their own Ts & Cs.

[Kelly Hopper]

Well I still have the brochure from Perth in the eighty's and it sure says 45k to me!
Before you started flying didn't anyone say to you "if you are looking to make decent money go do something else?" Cos I heard it a thousand times!
It seems from your last few comments that it is airline money that is driving you? Don't you want to experience aspects of aviation that airline flying will never give you? Believe me, I have done it and it is dull dull dull! And besides, it still doesn't pay well either.
The analagy I just have is a golfer on hole one desperate to get to the 19th now. Why not enjoy all 18 holes and then retire to the 19th?
You can choose to do it anyway you wish and I wish you well with it but direct entry airline with paid TR on a new licence is one quick way to erode yours and everyones elses T's & C's, miss out on the enjoyment of flying and find yourself bored stupid before you know it!

[P-T]

Kelly Hopper,

I'm not sure Clanger is in it for the money if I'm honest. Knowing how much he took home prior to his ATPL and comparing that to what I'm taking home now I think he'd be better off not doing the ATPL and I'm sure he appreciates this as well. But its not just the money that drives us/him. Surely the job itslef of flying an airliner is quite a rewarding one. Granted those longer in the tooth get bored but for those in the position of paying for the TR or looking for jobs, this clearly isnt the case for the people on this forum, as they are at the begining of the course.

Also not sure how much money you want to take home every year, but I'd be more than happy with the salary of the last captain I flew with. He took home over 100k after tax last year. Now I come from a working class background but I think that is more than enough to keep me happy. I always will strive to earn more than my age (equivalent in thousands of pounds), that's what I base my success career wise upon. Other than being a Doctor, Dentist or Barrister/Solicitor there is not many professional careers you can take this kind of money home. Of course you could go off and be a merchant Banker or City Trader, but I don't want to die of stress at 40.

The airline Industry is one fo the most rewarding out there (Certainly Flight Deck) and people keep forgetting that they once started at the bottom of the Ivory tower and weren't always at the top looking down at all of us "Ab-Initio's" with such bemusement.

The Grass is always Greener and I am aware of this. But would you ratehr not be in the airline industry and be sitting behind a desk 9-5??? I always compare what I do to a desk job; in that way, climbing out of a 757 will never be a bad day.

[clanger32]

Ok, I think you're confusing one thing....I knew very well what to expect when trying to get into this career and I went into it eyes wide open. Further, I'd love, I'd absolutely love the challenge of flying day to day into new airfields, flying NPAs, short, icy, fields in Scandawegia and so on. I have no desire to fly long haul, as I prefer the bits at either end, than the monitoring, button pushing bit in the middle....
But the bit you're missing however, is that I'M not talking about ME. I'm talking generally. You can view all my posts on this forum and indeed OAAs and you'll find that my message broadly has consistently been one to "slow down, limit your debt and enjoy it"....so on that I think we agree.

However, whilst perhaps commercial aviaition, even in the airlines, doesn't offer perhaps stockbroker levels of income, it does still offer a nice enough living. FWIW, my current job earns me a nice living, but it doesn't make my heart jump either....THAT is why I trained for a career change (perhaps my timing could use some work, but hey!)

What I'm TRYING to get through, is that your perspective is that people should take an FI job on £15k and then work their way up. That's fair enough. It's a very honourable route and I dare say one would learn skills that would ellude the career airline pilot. I also dare say you'd have some bloody good fun....but if you've just spent £70k at OAA, you'll also be bankrupt. You'll not have any kind of life .... and as you say, it's JUST. NOT. WORTH. that....which is why people are drawn to the route of paying for the type rating, which provides a job allowing the loans to be repaid etc.

I'm honestly not trying to be contentious...for me personally, I COULD go the FI route, but it's not really what I want to do - the money is only one part of it, although admittedly a big part....for me the ideal would be to have enough bunce of my own to fly around something like my own 800XPC, or better a gulf 5 and to be flying it purely for the fun of it. I KNOW that airline flying will be "just a job" within 5 years in all probability, but I also know that I've done fifteen years flying a desk and even on the worst days of tedium, I can look back at this and know I've made the right move. However, fun though flying is, there are also other things that are important to me, that require a decent living to be made. Things like my family, my house, holidays and so on. I don't WANT to live on the breadline for the sake of a tiny patch of quickly eroding moral high ground.

You think of my perspective like a game of golf, good analogy.
My wife is very pregnant....a little clanger is now something over 8 days late....so we've been talking about pain relief (or lack of) a lot....your view is reminiscent to me of THAT conversation....."there are no prizes for getting there MORE painfully".
And that's the problem....you seem to have a very black and white view on this and it just ISN'T that simple. Effectively chastising yourself by taking the hard route, won't stop this happening...it's just screwing yourself over.

think about what you're saying, I'll even add the subtext for you...."You newbies should take an FI job [IF you can find one, because it's the only job other than airline FO you can get with 200 hours, pay another £7k on top of what you've already spent] and earn £15 - £20k pa, rather than paying the extra £20k and getting a job that pays about £20k pa more."

You may not like it, but the option is there and it's significantly more appealing, even if the job won't be as satisfying. Personally, I don't think it's right, but it isn't going to change any time soon, because every one looks out for themselves in this industry...and whilst that's not right I don't blame anyone else for looking after their own best interests, if everyone else is only looking out for THEIR best interests.

[Kelly Hopper]

for me the ideal would be to have enough bunce of my own to fly around something like my own 800XPC, or better a gulf 5 and to be flying it purely for the fun of it.

The whole problem! It's a job. If you want this purely for the fun of it stick with a PPL.
Precisely because it's seen as an extention to a hobby is why we all see continuous degregation of our T's & C's.

And BTW I never suggested being a FI. I didn't instruct. I worked in GA flying real aeroplanes and for what it's worth you can earn 2/3 of what a new entry BA F/O earns without having to pay for a rating! So economically, professionally and given the current circumstances it actually makes much more sense.
Jeez!

[shaun ryder]

The other point is that you have to question the judgement of those who dive in head first in to training, pinning their hopes on walking straight into a jet 18 months later.

So what if you have a family to support? People should maybe factor these very things in to the equation before embarking on their odyssey. I never expected to go with the bare minimums into commercial aviation straight away, even though as a PPL I had more than twice the hours of your average grad when I first considered a career. People who think that they should get straight to where I am with their paltry hours and experience get my back up.

Go out and do some real flying first, cut your teeth somewhere instead of moaning about how much harder it is is now than before. I'll tell you what, those who do sit there waiting will be sitting there for ever.

I used to earn shed loads as a spark aswell. ;)

[batman123]

I think it has always been hard.
Let's see what the future will be, and let's see if banks are still willing to give the money to wannabes who dream to fly a jet after 24 months! I doubt!

[flash8]

I knew all would go downhill as soon as they abolished the self-improver route (sigh, fond memories).

What with the new 150hr integrated courses + TR + Line Time all in one package... its enough to make you turn in your grave, from 0 to line... guaranteed.... just give us your (big) bucks. Failed Sim? No Probs... After all "He who pays the piper calls the tune!". A recent case highlighted that issue only too succinctly.

And the profession has only itself to blame. Lets face it, unity isn't a strong point, back stabbing certainly is. It's a dog eat dog world.. money speaks... Eagle Jet is just the tip of an iceberg with a very slippery slope.

[batman123]

one day, there will be a crash, and they will discover that copilots paid for line training and hours...like a flight club!

when this day arrive, it s just a question of time, I will call the newspapers and TV.

[Said11]

Have anyone heard of Bellair pilot recruitment agency???
They say thy offer jobs on A320 and 737ng800 in China
I received mails from them

[bamboo30]

Pay for flight school, pay for type rating, pay for libe training where does it stop? What bemused me is where some of you, are against pay or type or pay for line training, and equals that to incompetence? But you see yourself as competence just because you had to work odd jobs to finance you CPL. The reason you had to work to finance your flight school was because your parents didnt have the cash to sponsor. Now you also PAID for your CPL!! What difference it makes to another pilot paying for TR? Just because you couldnt afford it pls do not equate to competence. If you were as competent way back, you wouldnt have even paid for flight school. Would have been a fully sponsored cadet.

[wondering]

W-T-F: For those having another USD115K to burn and fancy living three years in Male, Maldives.

Self Sponsored A320 Type Rating + 3 years guaranteed job program-Latest Pilot Jobs-Latest Pilot Jobs (http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/2790.html)

[pilotchute]

If you knew anything about how things work outside of Asia/Middle East you would know that there are no fully funded cadetships in the Western World.

They only exist in your part of the world because if the airline didn't pay for the training they wouldn't get any applicants cause no one can afford to pay for the CPL/IR on their own. Secondly, in alot parts of Asia and the ME piloting isn't seen as a high profile job. Most parents want their children to be doctors and Engineers. Good luck trying to find someone who's parents will pay for pilot training when they can get a degree in Medicine from India for the same price.

[shallwefly]

Hello

is there anyone knows well about the company culture?
do they have flexibilitis? or strict about everything? :O

[MaxBlow]

doubleu-anker (post #82) sums it up pretty well.
Can't agree more.:D

I heard of P2F programs where you pay 36k € for 100hrs on A320 or 300hrs for 50k €. After that time the 'airline' might offer you a contract but only maybe...most likely depending on how far you managed to put your head into the CPs rear end.:yuk:

One would expect a return of investment at one point - here you only get $ipped off.

[HermannP]

I was searching for a long time and finally i paid for linetraining and got the job after the training, as agreed when i started.
I am happy now and will not complain.

[captjns]

I'm sure pilots who truly earned their way int toe right seat would love to have a beer with you:mad: you can compare how you toiled your way to the bank in all that city traffic to withdraw funds. You can brag to the world how your airline exploited you, not as a valued crewmember, but a required piece of equipment (under the MEL), while the airline made money from revenue paying passengers and you as for sitting in the right seat do a jet. Come to think HermannP, of it you too were a revenue paying passenger with a seat in the cockpit along for the ride.

Yeah, I'm sure pilots who flew night freight single pilot, instructed, flew missionary flights to build time are truly impressed with you and your joy.

Now when in a group of pilots talking about how they got their first jobs, I hope you are honest and tell them, you bribed, and bought your way into the right seat. See how fast the crowd migrates away from you.:{.

[HermannP]

captj,
you, as well as other companies dont gave me a job, so dont complain.
It is an unfair game- yes, but i had the choice of loosing everything in a while or starting now...
I tried everything for a long time including the recurrencies on my expense.
I had to do something.
And it is very easy to pinpoint on others while sitting in the soft chair with a good job.

[captjns]

HermannP, many like myself paid our dues by flight instructing, ferrying aircraft, single pilot self loading freight. But we didn't pay any dough to warm our bins in the right seat of a shiny jet.

You and others of your ilk don't deserve to be considered professionals as you did not achieve your position by honest means.

[Ka6crpe]

Without knowing any of the people posting here, all I can say is that as a SLF I would much rather be in an aircraft with Captjns as a pilot than with HermannP.

A pilot who has worked his way through on a large variety of flying skills will react faster and more instinctively than someone who has only ever known airline flying.

[squarecrow]

Looks like HermannP bypassed writing English properly too by Paying in.
"Dont gave me a job" why not try there were no openings for me at the time.
Nobody owes you that job and remember a lot of scummies like Macdonalds are Luving it while you cough up to them to fly.

[despegue]

Simple solution to stop this...

We Captains hold all the cards really.

REFUSE to fly with a paying passenger in the right seat and demand a replacement First Officer, one that IS employed by the company and recieves a salary.
If the airline refuses and threatens you, refuse to fly, go into the cabin. GET ON THE PA, and tell the situation to the passengers, stating that the Second in command will fly them their passengers to their holiday destination, and paying 50000 euro for the privelege. state that you can not morally, nor professionally support this,,and that due to this company procedure you have genuine safety concerns.
Get out.

Only a couple of times this must happen before the tabloids will be FULL of public outcries:cool:

Oh, yeah, you will probably have to find a new job, but if you fly for one of these slave companies that support PTF, you might be better of at home anyhow:\ At least you showed that you are worthy of your four stripes, have balls and take your responsibility towards our industry in general and your colegues Worldwide in particular.

[Leon1983]

REFUSE to fly with a paying passenger in the right seat

I'm sorry but weather you like it or not your post is just ridiculous!!

it's like listening to my 4 year old son have a tantrum!

I did a 500 hour line training on 737 & not one Captain or FO had a problem with it, I think your on your own with this idea! I also think you may find yourself unemployed very soon with that attitude :D

if you want to make a career in the airlines you have to pay to get in! and that's the game, if you don't like it pick a different career :ok:

[despegue]

If you have such mentality, pick a different career, like prostitution Leon.

[FlyingStone]

if you want to make a career in the airlines you have to pay to get in! and that's the game, if you don't like it pick a different career

How about you pick a different career and let us have an actual job, which pays money to be a professional pilot - be it LHS or RHS?

I did a 500 hour line training on 737 & not one Captain or FO had a problem with it, I think your on your own with this idea! I also think you may find yourself unemployed very soon with that attitude

They probably did, but they didnt want to because:
a) their employment could be at risk
b) it's not really a good CRM to start arguing about P2F in the cockpit

When a captain asks you how much do you think the FO is worth and you answer "I'd pay 100€/h to do it", do you think he'll be really proud of what good professional FO he has? :ugh:

[despegue]

The following was posted by this Leon 1983 on 10/08/2013...


Yes this is true, I self studied everything never had a class room theory session so there are a few things I just never fully understood.

Would have been great to have a fully integrated course, but I went modular pay as you go, doing the theory on my own, and the flight school just wanted to pass everyone!

I will have to see what the future holds, but like you say there are just so many people at the entry level making it near impossible to stand out

I heard on another forum that Cathay had to change a database because there current system could not cope with the amount of applications & everyone had to re-apply.

Ah wish I still had my money and just flew privately!! I have to work an early morning cleaning job 5-8 then my regular job (customer service) 9-5 and then I have a 3rd job in a bar on weekends 7 till late! and all this just to pay back the huge loan I took for the training and LT, I have to say if it had paid off and I had 10 grand per month coming in it would have been worth it, but jeez grounds for depression.com


You are a troll Leon, not a pilot, certainly not a Professional one.

[captjns]

Leon and other P2Fers are part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. No interview questions other than "Hey... you got bazookums to pay for 500 Hrs. of cooling your heals in the right seat?". No qualifying exams other than the ability to write a cheque. No demonstration of CRM or compassion towards others, other than the desire to satisfy their own gratification by being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Leon's post of 500 hrs appears to be an alum of the Lion Air Amusement Park:}

Rest assured, airlines like EY, EK, CX, will not hire the P2Fer until the pool of real pilots dry up:ok::D

[HermannP]

I flew a lot of singles and twins, flew turboprops, did CRM and all required courses.
The company went bancrupt.
I made a TR in the next company.
After a while the same, the company went bancrupt.
I got no job for a long time.
I had the choice: Let the licence go and stop flying at all or do this.
After all the effort I decided to get the linetraining programm instead of loosing the licence.
For me it was the only way to keep my licence and do my job.

[captjns]

For me it was the only way to keep my licence and do my job.

You could have renewed your license, continue the job search, and garnered the respect from the pilot community. A lot cheaper than 50,000 bazookums plus living expenses.

P2Fers, can be compared to Johns hooking seeking out the basic hooket for instant gratification.

[lingdee]

come on captjns, you and all those who hate p2f pilots is because you are worried that the terms and salary for pilots including captain ( when you become one ) will be in the downward trend. Whether you like it or not it will happen and you are just selfish and worry about your own welfare.

Those who hate p2f are mostly current pilots who have already a job and the hours hence they do not require to do p2f and could not care less about others especially the jobless pilots..

Herman have my highest respect, the willingness to take the risk and go ahead with his career rather than do nothing and END his career.

Yeah yeah, we heard about being a FI, ferry flight, jump pilot and bla bla bla, or even an airline sponsored type rating ( which is pretty rare these days ) ONLY to be slap in the face that after accumulating thousands of hours in piston, they tell you, you need min 500 jet hours and the famous phrase "WE ONLY HIRE LOCALS or you need to be a citizen or hold local passport"

captjns,if you are an unemployed pilot today and after sending your resume to almost every airline worldwide with 99% no reply at all, will you do the same thing? or you can hang your expensive cpl blue book in the wall as an expensive memento?

Kudos to herman and would be great if you can share with us struggling jobless pilots on how and which airline you do it so we can also launch our piloting career. There are plenty of scam around and we really need experience from people who have successfully launch their pilot career.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

You're damn right I worry about my own welfare. Who else is going to?

You think I shouldn't...just so someone can essentially jump the queue and subsidise an airlines' bottom line for their own gratification?

[captjns]

Well Lingdee has certainly earned the head seat at the kiddy table, while the professional pilots sit and eat at the adult table.

The only qualifications I've seen demonstrated by the P2Fer is the ability to pay their way into the cockpit. Perhaps Lingdee and HermannP are into suggestive polling... as my peers have no respect for the P2Fer, that's both F/O and Captains. The funniest I ever heard was when a passenger asked her if the F/O was the pilot. She said no... he's not a real pilot. His parents had to pay the airline so baby sitters could watch him. That must have been a real proud moment for the little shave tail.

[kolob666]

Look at most feeder or GA ops, you will make as a captain a salary not too far off from what an new airline fo makes. In fact in some countries you will make more.
So the excuse that you can't make a decent wage by traditional means is lacking. It is pure f u, me first mentality. But you don't seem to realize that by doing this cue jumping you are taking cash directly out of your future pocket.
Not only that, when you pay to do a job that someone else gets paid to do, it's a bit tragic. It shows very little self value and undermines all of your so called "peers".
If you can't see that you are damaging the industry for your fellow pilots, please stop and realize that you are actually damaging your own future earning potential.
And if any of you apologists think you can make a case against that, I invite you to tell us how someone willing to pay to do my job doesn't undermine me.

[TeaTowel]

Those who hate p2f are mostly current pilots who have already a job and the hours hence they do not require to do p2f and could not care less about others especially the jobless pilots..

I'm very much a new jobless pilot and many like me hate p2f and SSTR.'s

Don't forget the instructors who have to train these guys and end up instructing even longer as their students buy a seat at an airline. They hate them too.

No one is required to p2f. No one is holding a gun to your head.:ugh:

The funniest I ever heard was when a passenger asked her if the F/O was the pilot. She said no... he's not a real pilot. His parents had to pay the airline so baby sitters could watch him. That must have been a real proud moment for the little shave tail.

Hahaha! I hope this happens to the ****.s everyday.:D

[Trackdiamond]

Even prostitutes get paid :mad:

This p2f industry has to be brought to a screeching halt..by the regulators of Aviation.Pilots who pay to fly develop a bad attitude after training...because they feel they paid for the priviledge and will hardly have any obligation towards employers.

For those that insist on p2f...take along lots of vaseline during training...coz you will pay..through your nozzle too!

[Chief Brody]

I think PTF should be avoided at all costs. Reducing bonds for a type rating are ok imoh but money should only go in one direction come payday....them to you.

The argument levelled at us with jobs is that we don't know what it's like out there.

Well its true that when I went through the sausage factory the global economy was very different. Being a self improver my ppl instructor told me one thing before I headed off to finish my cpl/ir....for Christs sake get a recommendation - it's what separates you from everyone else.

So I went to the Heathrow Radison roadshow and asked each FT provider if they gave airline recommendations for self improver runts - most no, two said yes on the understanding that I passed both the cpl and ir first time. Which I did and true to their word FTE got me and interview with flybe.

So what's your point you ask....

One, only embark on your training when the world economy isn't in the :mad:house.

Two, make sure you satisfy yourself that a recommendation will be forthcoming at the end - subject to any caveats they stipulate.

If both cant be met then chalk it up to fate and don't go down the airline route, rather just enjoy your ppl to the max. Twin, imc etc.

[EK4457]

Hi Chief Brody,

What if the world economy goes into the ****house during / just after training?

What if you had two or three recommendations before you trained but didn't mean anything afterwards because those companies haven't recruited since (or went bust).

I'm genuinely glad it all worked out for you. However it's probably a little naive to suggest that eveyone's problems could have all been sorted by following a couple of rules.

If flybe stopped recruitment UFN during your training, what would a promise of a recommendation been worth?

Would you have taken your own advice and been a happy PPL for ever?

I will not P2F. However, I think it's a lot more complicated than you make out.

[Chief Brody]

EK4457

Im no economist but I judge the :mad: to have officially hit the fan when Northern Rock, Lehman Bros and Freddie Mac/Fanny Mae imploded.

The former of which was 2007.

All what you say is credible except we have been in this predicament for 6 years. So to the individuals who set off down the training route post the financial apocalypse mentioned above Caveat Emptor.

I agree I may have oversimplified things but when I go visit a pal in hospital who's flatlining I don't then walk down the grocers and buy some green bananas.

[EK4457]

CB,

I take your point about training post 2008.

Madness.

[Mikehotel152]

Lehman Brothers went bankrupt in 2008 and was still lighting up the Manhattan boardwalk in lurid green when I had the pleasure of visiting the Big Apple in September 2007.

I had started training at the beginning of that year when things still looked promising for newly qualified pilots using the self-improver route. Boy did things change between 2008 and 2010! Apart from a tiny number of niche positions and the loco expansion requirements, there were no jobs whatsoever.

So why on earth did anyone start training after 2008/9? It seems akin to gambling to me. And meanwhile the locos ran a very successful bookies knowing the odds were stacked entirely in their favour. The people who commenced training knowing that the locos were the only route were nuts!

[EK4457]

MH152,

Agreed.

I completed my PPL in 2005 and booked 6 months off from work in summer 2007 to complete CPL/MEIR.

I knew and worked with influential people in 3 airlines at the time. It couldn't have gone wrong...

Of course it did. These airlines have not recruited a single wannabe since then. One went bust.

I couldn't have timed it worse. Any earlier and I would have been job hunting in a relatively positive job market with contacts. Any later and I would not have wasted £50K.

That is why, whilst I will not P2F, I can't judge those who do. Of course some are complete pricks. However, some of them are simply good guys who are desperate to make their investment work after some rotten luck.

Sitting on a flight deck and demonising those to P2F is very easy to do. I just think that it's a symptom of our problems and not the cause.

[FrontRunner]

Lehman Brothers went bankrupt in 2008 and was still lighting up the Manhattan boardwalk in lurid green when I had the pleasure of visiting the Big Apple in September 2007.The thing is that you should not rely on the stock market or the main stream media (MSM) for an indication in which direction the economy is going. The big banks own the media and the politicians, so don't expect much truth from them.

People are brainwashed in school and by the MSM into believing that Keynesian economics (money printing and/or government spending) will cure all economic problems, unfortunately people who started training in 2007/2008 are now finding out the hard way that this is not true.

As for anyone who started in after 2010, they should really get their heads (re?)examined as they clearly lack any kind of risk assessment capability. These folks should IMHO only be allowed on airplanes as self loading freight, not as pilots. :ugh:

The world briefly flirted with disaster in 2008, but fundamentally not much has changed. People and governments are still very much in debt, and banks are leveraged to the max with all sorts of derivatives that could blow up big time if the economy takes a tumble.

With stock markets again near all time highs, perhaps it's about time people start to look more into alternative media, i.e. blogs and internet sites that have a more contrarian and critical view of things, instead of just reading a glossy brochure from a flight school.

Zero Hedge | On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero (http://www.zerohedge.com/)

Zerohedge is very good, with very frequent, almost live updates and commentary about geopolitical events that have a large impact on anyone who is contemplates spending thousands of Pounds, Dollars or Euros on flight training and/or P2F packages. Compare Zerohedge's analysis of events with the MSM analysis of the same event for a few weeks/months, and then draw your own conclusion.

Remember:

"Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; debt is the money of slaves” (Norm Franz)

I'm not recommending anyone to go and buy gold or silver, but for God's sake WAKE UP before you enslave yourself by taking on a huge amount of debt that will seriously screw up your future.

Aviation as a career is DEAD! :(

[Mikehotel152]

It was pretty short-lived!

[saddest aviator]

Look Guys, it is not the fault of the individuals that indulge their dreams of flying the latest brand new superdooperjet, being given the opportunity only to do so by the regulatory authorities not having any minimum hr requirement before young rich pilots can p2f the superdooperjet. What ever happened to the FAA suggestion that there had to be minimum hrs before flying more advanced equipment. I thought 1500 was mooted. When I started 500 turbine was an absolute min before even getting a reply to an application.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[captjns]

The FAA changed the rules for first officers - announcing new requirements on July 10, 2013. In short, on August 1, 2013, the FAA requires SIC's to hold an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate (ATP), but the certificate may have restricted privileges. An ATP with restricted privileges requires you to:

Be 21 years old
Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate with an Instrument Rating
Complete an Airline Transport Pilot Certification Training Program (ATP CTP)
Pass the ATP knowledge and practical test
And meet the flight time requirements of FAR 61.160 - roughly 1,500 hours
Before this change, SIC's only needed a Commercial Pilot Certificate - roughly 250 hours of flight time - so this is a big change. However, the FAA recognizes that great training can make up for some raw experience. They've made exceptions for pilots coming through certain training programs, allowing them to earn an ATP with restricted privileges in less time. The exceptions are:

Military pilots need only 750 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time
Graduates from approved four-year universities with a Bachelor's degree and an aviation major need only 1000 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time if they:

Complete at least 60 credit hours of aviation related coursework, and
Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate that was earned through the university's part 141 training program
If they complete less than 60 credit hours, but at least 30 credit hours, they need 1250 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time

Graduates from approved two-year colleges with an Associate's degree and an aviation major need only 1250 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time if they:

Complete at least 30 credit hours of aviation related coursework, and
Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate that was earned through the school's part 141 training program.

Other pilots need 1500 hours total time and 200 hours cross-country time
Full time requirements for an ATP with restricted privileges

Total flight time and cross-country time aren't the only requirements for an ATP. In total, you'll need:

1500, 1250, 1000, or 750 hours of total flight time

You can get up to 100 hours in an airplane full flight simulator or flight training device, if it was flown during an approved training course at a part 121, 135, 141, or 142 school

200 hours of cross-country flight time
100 hours of night flight time

If you've performed more than 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop, you can count each additional takeoff/landing pair as one hour of night flight time - up to 25 hours of total night credit

50 hours of multi-engine flight time, but you can get 25 hours in a full flight simulator if done in an approved training program
75 hours of instrument flight time (actual or simulated)

You can count up to 25 hours in a flight simulator or a flight training device while training with an instructor

250 hours of pilot in command (PIC) time, including

At least 100 hours of cross-country time
At least 25 hours of night flight time

[drivez]

These magical air taxi/freight/survey work/instructor jobs simply don't exist on a sufficient scale anymore. Combine that with the fact that some people are just willing to throw money at the problem of not having a job and it's the perfect breeding ground for SSTR and P2F. SSTR imho is distinct from P2F in that however annoying it is, it's an employers market and if you don't pay someone else will.

As a low hour pilot right now, even with a very good CV, it is VERY hard to get a job. You have to have experience to get experience. To be a modular self improver now at a school that isn't very well known right now seems utter madness to me.

[sascha410]

While you experienced guys are too worried about industry and conditions which came with the new, not so great times please take a break and read carefully this post ones again.
Instead of bitching on your new colleagues you have the opportunity to change this negative spiral... but of course, it is always easier to blame others especially if they are in more undesirable or powerless situation.

This is only one of many possibilities that you well-established seniors have, so please do something to change it. Take the responsibility do not push it away! You are in command...:rolleyes::hmm::ugh:...

...So posted while ago with not so much attention as it requires something of those loudest people here on the forum...

"Simple solution to stop this...

We Captains hold all the cards really.

REFUSE to fly with a paying passenger in the right seat and demand a replacement First Officer, one that IS employed by the company and recieves a salary.
If the airline refuses and threatens you, refuse to fly, go into the cabin. GET ON THE PA, and tell the situation to the passengers, stating that the Second in command will fly them their passengers to their holiday destination, and paying 50000 euro for the privelege. state that you can not morally, nor professionally support this,,and that due to this company procedure you have genuine safety concerns.
Get out.

Only a couple of times this must happen before the tabloids will be FULL of public outcries

Oh, yeah, you will probably have to find a new job, but if you fly for one of these slave companies that support PTF, you might be better of at home anyhow At least you showed that you are worthy of your four stripes, have balls and take your responsibility towards our industry in general and your colegues Worldwide in particular."

[Alexander de Meerkat]

There is such nonsense being written here by people who never had to make hard decisions. I am one of those who was in the right place at the right time and got a job by applying for it, getting a bond and then being paid to work. We all know that p2f is immoral and outrageous. The problem is that the system exists and for many people this is the only way into aviation. The root of all this lies in the infinite supply of young people desperate to be airline pilots and who will take any loan, at virtually any interest rate and do anything to get that job. This is supply and demand in action - as long as that infinite supply exists you will have this problem.

You can see in China where there is a desperate shortage of A320 Captains, they will pay a fortune to get a western guy to sign up - again supply and demand in action. The problem is that even though Chinese airlines want these people, their own country wants to do everything possible to stop them coming so they produce crazy medical rules to prevent the very captains they need working there - classic communist, command economy activities getting in the way of good old capitalist supply and demand.

The only real solution is for national civil aviation regulation to prevent p2f. If the UK CAA are anything to go by, then we should not be holding our breath.

[Captain Boycott]

The problem in basic terms goes back to the day everything was deregulated in the UK its gone pretty much T*ts up big style from that point onwards both the Tories and Labour have both been in power during this decay to our lives

Money went from been an important part of the overall picture of life. To been the only thing that matters these days

The energy supply industry and the banking system to name but two pretty big parts of our lives. Look how they have evolved through deregulation - The situation with aviation is nothing remarkable... It is exactly the same as everything else these days -As long as somebody somewhere is ripping your fingernails out or if not yours then somebody elses for half a penny there will be no enjoyment or fairness to life.

Whether your a desperate FO who will consider almost any idea to get a job or someone established in an Airline who is keen to hold what they have and keep their nut down. Both sides at fault? probably?.. neither side at fault? possibly.... One side blaming the other? Pointless really
Wannabees and experienced guys are not the problem. Its much much bigger than that.

[departures131]

sascha410 - interesting point of view


In response to that post I would say that if I was a Captain in an airline, all I am worried about is that my co-pilot is fully qualified to fulfill his duty and has been checked to line by my airlines training department.


As to how they got to the seat is none of my business, I am paid to be the Captain of that particular airliner, and I will not get involved in the politics and put my own job at risk just to support this campaign.


Tabloids don't give 2 hoots about this, if we started putting unqualified pilots without CPL's I think there would be a story, but internships or whatever you want to call them is similar story in most industry's.


In this day and age company's want more for less, the golden era is long gone, you can either wine and moan on here about it or adjust to this ever changing industry, you control how you want to feel about life at the end of the day.


In general across all sectors the world is a very cruel and unfair place. and there are several people ready to screw you over when they get the chance.

[Zipster]

I am wondering why this is not happening in professions also, since the same market forces are in place there. There are millions (billions?) to be saved by asking newgrads in a new industry to fund the initial bit as well as paying for the first 500 hours experience.

Only in aviation though afaik, so why does it not happen in engineering, law, medicine etc when there are the same number of people eager to start a career there?

[wiggy]

I'm not sure the same market forces do apply. Medicine and engineering are "gated" by the academic nature of the courses, and I stand to be corrected but I think in the UK at least the prospective legal Beagle has been funding large portions of their initial training for some time.

I hate to say it but like it or not the academic qualifications required to enrol for your ATPL course are fairly minimal, therefore there's an over supply of suitably qualified students right from the get go.

[Fg Off Kite]

Wow, Wiggy,

You're saying that the button-pushing gear-monkeys could actually be thickos?

The system is allowing anyone with a rudimentary education and enough money to be in charge of people's lives?

Is the system broken?

[sascha410]

My Dear colleagues here at the pprune, Alexander de Meerkat, Captain Boycott, departures131 I can nothing but agree with you. All your comments make sense to me and I appreciate your contribution.
Most of my post is “copy/paste” and I quoted it, post written by despegue in August 2013. The post was commented by only one member and I thought that some people here owe us some sort of comment on it or in that direction.
I found it interesting and that was my attempt to show the point to our loud colleagues, experienced pilots which are bitching, complaining using “censored” words and at the end of the day unfortunately do not contribute with anything useful and constructive to the discussion here neither they do something to influence this negative trend.

So I do agree with you that problem is much larger and solution cannot only be “stop paying for work” as many here suggested. Should CAA regulate it or don’t, make bigger entry requirements, limit the number of qualified people… all of it or none of it, probable much more of something else…I do not know, but please keep the decent tone and try to be constructive, try to see both sides of the medal…. Over and Out…

[Mach E Avelli]

Wiggy actually put it far more diplomatically than I would. No doubt, if you have the money and the time, you can be thick as a brick and by sheer rote learning, eventually qualify to be a pilot.
This is the greatest danger with pay-to-fly. I could give a classic example of this. Of someone flying as F/O on medium jets with an international operator right now. Absolutely unsuited to the task. But the person would be so easily recognised by some, that to elaborate further with first-hand horror stories about this guy would probably invite a lawsuit from his Daddy's lawyers.

Unscrupulous managements will move the goal posts out as wide as they need to be to capture p2f pilots with not much more than a pulse to fill the right seat. The crunch will come (literally) when they run out of competent commanders.

[departures131]

If incompetent operators are being put in to the RHS of an airliner then someone is not doing there job properly.


May I remind you all the process to even qualify to sit in the RHS.


PPL 7 theory examination's plus 2 flight test's
CPL 14 theory examination's plus 1 flight test
IFR 1 theory examination plus 1 flight test
ATPL 14 theory examination
MCC course 1 examination
Type rating 1 oral examination and 1 written examination & 1 check ride
Airline interview and Sim assesments
Airline induction several systems and air law examination's
OPC 1 written examination and check ride to include S/E Raw data ILS, Circle to land, etc. (stuff that needs to be carried out with precision)
LPC 1 written examination and check ride
SEP/DG/CRM/RVSM/FA need to be done as well but most all could pass these.
On top of this you need at least A Levels to be able to fully understand the logic of the subjects


I call BS to dummies flying in the RHS, it's just not possible to get through so many holes in the Swiss cheese.


This industry does have standards

My point being that not anyone (a so called dummy can make it to the RHS of an airliner whether they paid or not without getting through these tests.

[wiggy]

Wow, Wiggy,

You're saying that the button-pushing gear-monkeys could actually be thickos?



Just to be clear that wouldn't be my choice of words, I don't think "thickos" would be very good at the job, and probably/hopefully wouldn't last very long at most credible companies....

[Avenger]

Splitting Hairs.. but.. if a candidate pays 120K Euro for a type rating and 300 hrs line training, and then receives a low basic salary of say 2500E during this "training period", are they paying to fly by virtue of the inflated training costs?Examination of new contracts and employment conditions suggests the airlines are merely reducing their training risks until line check, i.e covering all the bases, of course they then have the pick of the crop for permanent positions, however, it is very common for new entrants to be on 6 months probation..and have a temporary extension after 3 months..In reality, no one is going to refuse to operate with a PTF person, you are confusing the role of the professional aviator with moral considerations and policies made by the commercial bean counters which are outside the job remit of a pilot.

[departures131]

2 Commercial pilots finish flight school in 2003 with CPL MECIR.


The first Pilot Buys an Instructor Rating for $18,000 and is taken on by his flight school as a grade 3 instructor, he is flying mainly Warriors and 172's, his week is pretty quiet and most of his work comes on weekends, when the weather is good, when the Grade 1 and 2 pilots don't have enough time to do the flights.

His pay per week is around $350

After two years of this he gets a charter job doing scenic flights on a bigger SEP C206 but his pay is not much better at just $450 per week, he does this for a further 3 years and then gets a job at a regional airline flying a Fairchild Metro III as a co pilot, his pay in this job starts at about $600 per week, he does this for 3 years and then gets upgraded to Captain earning $1,200 per week.


Now here is where this story gets interesting, over a 10 year period this guy has earned in the region of $321,880 bucks less his instructor rating (18k) less his intial flight training (80k) and he is looking at a figure of around the $223,880 mark over a 10 year period he is averaging around 1800 bucks per month Gross.

Now remember the other guy that finished flight school around the same time?


yes you guessed it he went down the line training route, he bought a Type rating right out of flight school, B737NG that cost him $15,000


He then proceeded with a line training company for 500 hours in the 737 that cost him $90,000 it took him 12 months to finish the line training and then he was offered a job with the same airline as a first officer, bearing in mind he earned no money during the line training so additional cost's of $12,000 for his accom and living.

His initial salary was low but not as bad as his instructor friends! he was taking $1,100 per week. he was flying a lot as well around 100 hours per month he did this for the next 5 years and then managed to score a FO gig with one of the majors, his salary now was around the $2,500 per week mark, after 3 years he managed to get his first command and now makes $4,000 per week.

So when you stack his figures up over the last 10 years he has earned $884,000 less the intial training (80k) less his type rating (15k) less his LT (90K Ouch!) less his cost of living (12k) over last 10 years he has Grossed $687,000 that is almost HALF A MILLION Dollars more than his friend!


This is a true story, however its not quite what you think, the guy that went Bush is a very experienced Captain and continues to fly the Metro III, he gets a good quality of time with his 2 kids and wife and they live quietly in the country side. not to mention he is one of the most knowledgeable pilots I know.



However the Line training guy is Single, he lives in hotels and has no free time at all, he is always flying, he has a stack of money in the bank but nobody to enjoy it with, he has lost touch with most of his friends and is sick and tired of living out of a suitcase, he quite often cant remember what day it is!. his flying knowledge and skill consist of radar vectors and ILS!
Now you tell me who is the better off here!

[ironbutt57]

After two years of this he gets a charter job doing scenic flights on a bigger SEP C206 but his pay is not much better at just $450 per week, he does this for a further 3 years and then gets a job at a regional airline flying a Fairchild Metro III as a co pilot, his pay in this job starts at about $600 per week, he does this for 3 years and then gets upgraded to Captain earning $1,200 per week.

Vastly improved...same staircase I climbed...except as Metro FO I made 850 per MONTH, and as Capt 1350 per MONTH...mind you it was the early 80's..

[Mikehotel152]

PPL 7 theory examination's plus 2 flight test's
CPL 14 theory examination's plus 1 flight test
IFR 1 theory examination plus 1 flight test
ATPL 14 theory examination
MCC course 1 examination
Type rating 1 oral examination and 1 written examination & 1 check ride
Airline interview and Sim assesments
Airline induction several systems and air law examination's
OPC 1 written examination and check ride to include S/E Raw data ILS, Circle to land, etc. (stuff that needs to be carried out with precision)
LPC 1 written examination and check ride
SEP/DG/CRM/RVSM/FA need to be done as well but most all could pass these.
On top of this you need at least A Levels to be able to fully understand the logic of the subjects


I call BS to dummies flying in the RHS, it's just not possible to get through so many holes in the Swiss cheese.

Absolute nonsense. I've flown with loads of guys and girls who are of no better than average intelligence. In fact some are completely witless. Many don't have A-Levels. Some would struggle with a GCSE. In certain airlines pilots reach the lofty heights of command simply due to longevity and seniority...

Yet many of these people get the licence, pay vast amounts to get into a cockpit, and then believe they are hotshots. You should see how many First Officers fail the command upgrade these days because they haven't developed airmanship skills because they simply don't 'get it' - that's a lack of intelligence in my book.

If you want to be a professional pilot stretch your mind, work hard, but above all, do an aptitude test!

[flash8]

I call BS to dummies flying in the RHS, it's just not possible to get through so many holes in the Swiss cheese.

Bloody hell mate. You really believe that? Now that is worrying ;)

[departures131]

Well I am sorry to hear you have to deal with such un qualified pilots

If a person can get through the long list i mentioned above thats good enough for me.

Flying is not rocket science after all although it may appear to be to some.

This industry is incrediabley bitchy, esspecialy on an anoyminous forum like this.

I however will never be involved myself, I just offer advice based on another industry.

[Mikehotel152]

I just offer advice based on another industry

I worked as a professional for years in another industry too, but aviation is an industry that attracts a huge proportion of willy-wavers. Those waving the biggest imaginary willies are not necessarily endowed with the greatest intellect.

Sadly, despite all the talk of CRM and human factors, the training system does not weed-out these people. Indeed, it panders to them. He who shouts loudest and acts with the most unfounded assertiveness is lauded in airlines the world over. Sad but true.

[TeaTowel]

Even the pilots pay on some low-cost flights - News & Advice - Travel - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/even-the-pilots-pay-on-some-lowcost-flights-9028635.html)

Pilots' unions and trainee pilots are warning that only the wealthiest, rather than the best, candidates will become pilots because growing numbers of airlines are having cadets "pay to fly".

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Mikehotel152 - utter cobblers. What airlines have you worked for?

[Tourist]

Departures131

The problem with your list of hurdles for a prospective pilot is that none of them are hard.

Some might take some effort, but essentially, if you are hard working you will eventually pass.
And as we all know, nothing is more dangerous than a hard working cretin.

The exams themselves are now just a multi guess piece of wee wee. A hurdle instantly forgotten with info dumped from short term memory days after the exam.

If a company is paying, they will chop students who take too long.
If an individual with very deep pockets is paying he will eventually get the book in his hand.

[Mikehotel152]

Which bit is cobblers?

[centropy]

In fact some are completely witless. Many don't have A-Levels. Some would struggle with a GCSE.

That is one of the most pathetic thing I've read on Pprune for a long time. Many of your colleages don't have A-Levels....... That must really be a cause for concern after passing qualifications relevant to their profession.

[Mikehotel152]

For goodness sake, please read my comment in the context in which it was written: the previous poster to mine suggested that pilots need 'at least A-Levels to properly understand the subjects' and implied that commercial pilots have to be academically gifted to reach the hallowed cockpit.

They do not, and many are not.

[despegue]

mikeHotel152,

Those not academically gifted might learn the questionbase, but in order to understand the 14 ATPL subjects properly, you DO need to have the intellect to pass several A levels. Problem is that nowadays, most FO 's do not have a clue about the ATPL theory, and as a result their Airmanship has been compromised since groundschool:ugh:

Get back some strict academical and psychological entry tests now! Eliminate the questionbank, replace the multiple choice by open questions and oral examinations and we will quickly see an increase of quality in the cockpit. The rot always starts from the basement...

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Mikehotel152

He who shouts loudest and acts with the most unfounded assertiveness is lauded in airlines the world over. Sad but true.

That is the bit that is cobblers. I have worked for 5 airlines and not found that statement to be true in any of them. Sure you get the odd dork along the way, but for every one of them there are 99 great people.

[despegue]

Even a monkey can learn a questionbank by heart.

Compare the level of teaching the ATPL now with 20 years or even 10 years ago:ugh

I fly commercially for 20 years now, and the decline in understanding of aviation subjects is staggering, frightening and very real.

Departures131, from reading your post,it looks that you are the judgemental one, attacking on a personal level instead of giving general remarks.

And no, I do not think that nowadays cadets have to work as hard as before. Standards HAVE gone down due to the pure commercialisation and greed of both JAA(EASA), the Airlines AND the academies.

[Mikehotel152]

Alexander

Perhaps I was overly harsh in order to make the point, but I have met pilots throughout training and professional flying who have overly inflated opinions of their ability. In many cases, including in the sim and during line checks, I have seen these people commended for being 'slick' in circumstances where CRM and teamwork would better resolve a normal or non-normal situation. My point, inelegantly made, is that the loud and brash pilot of average ability will do extraordinarily well in aviation because flying is still overly macho.

Departures131

With respect, you have no idea what kind of pilot or person I am. You have drawn erroneous conclusions, however, like Alexander, it's probably because of my uncompromising outburst in relation to your assertion that a dummy cannot get to the cockpit because of the intense academic training.

But I wasn't suggesting that complete idiots populate the modern cockpit. It's a mixture. Nevertheless, as Despegue points out, standards of theoretical training are lower than ever before, primarily because all the professional examinations use the multiple choice format with easily accessible question banks. Whatever people say about the professional value of A-Levels or a Degree in relation to flying at least those qualifications are handed out following written examinations.

When you combine low levels of theoretical knowledge with low hours in the cockpit, even rigid SOPs can disguise only so much of the inherent danger. As I said before, I come across a lot of pilots whose airmanship isn't up to the standard I believe should be the norm. Yet all these people passed the exams and flight tests. I am no saint, nor am I an excellent pilot. But in my defence, I am conscious of my deficiencies and work hard to rectify them - an attitude I cannot detect in some of my more arrogant colleagues.

[south coast]

Once the objective ATPL multiple guess quizzes are passed, apart from a type rating technical exam, again a multiple guess quiz, I think all other assessments are subjective, licence skills tests, OPCs, LPCs and line checks...that allows scope for "but he's a nice guy" to unfortunately creep in and while all the protection of the hurdles you mentioned are there, factor humans into those hurdles and sometimes the protection falls away.

[pilotmike]

@departures131:A person who is judgmental and assumes they can figure someone out is the person that will get caught out
followed immediately by:I can see you are the type of person that thinks they know it all and can do no wrong...:ugh:
Pure comedy! Do you never stop to take a look at the hypocritical nonsense you write? Talk about an own goal!

What I have witnessed here is you trying to tell me the examinations are as easy as learning the alphabet
Where did you witness that? It is purely a figment of your (judgmental and assuming) imagination. He didn't say that. I recommend you either have your eyes tested, or you learn to read properly. You demonstrate yourself to be an unreliable witness who is hypocritical, judgmental and making assumptions.
I however will never be involved myselfThat's a relief then.:) I just offer advice based on another industry.Best advice would be to keep yours to yourself.:ok:

[despegue]

In a recent post, Departures131 declared that he wants to BUY 500 hours on a jet, just for the experience, for the fun of it, as he is rich, over 50 and want to have done it in his life:rolleyes:
This poster is a perfect example of the problem with our industry nowadays.

So please do not take this departures131 person serious.
He is simply a troll, not an aviator.

[Dufo]

If anyone wants to fly my rostered days, feel free.
Oh but I keep the salary. Thanks :ok:

[departures131]

Well if this industry is full of clowns and circus acts why do u bother to continue to work in it?

And yes it would be a great experience to have 500 hours, but you have no right to tell me what to do, its my life, my money and my decision, if you dont like it thats your problem, live in anger if you so wish.

[First.officer]

departures131,

I think the problem is that (at least from where I'm sitting) whilst admirable that you have managed to make a success of your previous area of employment, and quite rightly reap the rewards of what I'm sure must have been bloody hard work, determination etc. to get there, some forum members see that you now wish to "play" at the big jets. Now, as you quite rightly point out;

you have no right to tell me what to do, its my life, my money and my decision, if you dont like it thats your problem, live in anger if you so wish.

Now, maybe a slightly different perspective - imagine that in your prior chosen career path, you found yourself in the position whereby considerable expense and effort had gotten you to a point where you could start to earn a decent incoming from your chosen profession - and then slowly, all the Terms and Conditions started to dwindle, to the point where others paying to do what you previously chose to get paid to do, had eroded your business down to a mere hobby (from an earnings perspective), one which given the investment in time and money, made it hard to meet the accrued debts, bills and alike - and there, I think, is where you have met the resentment.

By all means, spend your money as you wish - don't think anyone really could argue they have a right to tell you otherwise in reality. But do bear in mind that collectively you are contributing to the overall decline in Professional Aviation as a career, and especially as you are really not looking at this as anything more than a hobby, a folly, to satisfy an urge. Your short term gain will be other's long term loss, and perhaps as you alluded to earlier, you would be better off buying yourself a Simulator and pretending you have the paying public in the rear, as opposed to coming out and joining the Professionals who do this to earn a living.

As for the industry having "clowns" and being little more than a "Circus Act" - well, not all in this industry are like that, in fact, it is only a very small minority. But you are looking to feed some of these "clowns", and some of us prefer to remain long-term in this industry, and achieve respect and success not only for ourselves, but also our employers, and thus achieve longevity for all. IMHO, subsidising pax air fares by paying to fly helps no-one long term, employee, or employer.

[pilotmike]

departures131. You've only been posting here under 1 week, yet you've irritated many. You've criticised PROFESSIONAL pilots about how they handled a mayday / engine failure - mishandled in your ignorant opinion. You have demonstrated that you clearly understand very little, if any, of what is involved, nor how well they in fact did.

Remember, the first P in PPRuNe is for Professional, not Pretend.

You have told us all about your qualifications as (apparently) a CPL / IR and your aspirations to play at flying passenger jets 'as a life experience'. We have seen your hypocritical attacking of Professional pilots who actually FLY for a living, your criticism of Professional pilots who handled an engine failure in almost textbook fashion, and your claims that a single engine landing of an overweight 757 has no effect on the brakes (breaks as you prefer...) as it is a completely normal landing.

The more you say, the more stupid you look.

Many would consider that you prove Mikehotel's point pefectly. You most certainly give very strong supporting evidence in favour of his argument. His whole point was that almost anyone could somehow become technically qualified to occupy a right hand seat of a passenger jet. You provide the evidence every time you offer your thoughts and opinions. You really should stop.

[macdo]

First.Officer.
While I instinctively agree with most of your post, the sad fact of the matter is, everyone who has paid to fly (beyond getting the basic licenses) has contributed to the decline of global T&C's. Doesn't really matter if they are 25 or 50. Loaded or skint with a 100k worth of debt. It has all added to where we are today.

[galaxy flyer]

How did it evolve that airlines are asking for tens of thousands of Pounds Sterling or Euros for "line training" that might, or might not, finish with job offer? Except for SWA's requirement for a simple B737 TR, which only gets an interview, the very idea would be laughed out the door at a US major.

[Globally Challenged]

As far as I am aware - it is laughed out at the european majors too.

However, Mr Pikey came over and extracted all the very worst of the SWA model and outcompeted everyone in euroland ... so all but the very biggest had to follow suit to stay in business. FOs are just another useful cost center to be squeezed.

[Tourist]

macdo

I notice that you think that it is ok to pay for your basic licences.

Let me guess.
You only paid for your basic licences?

Funny how people set the bar to exclude themselves from the "bad" people who have ruined aviation as a career.

Personally I never paid for any of mine. Does that mean I can look down upon you?

I'm my not so humble opinion the fault is in no way with those who will do anything to get into aviation. Good for them.

I want to be an astronaut. If there was such a thing as pay to spacewalk I would sign up tomorrow.
There isn't, because the current astronauts won't allow idiots like me anywhere near a rocket.

The fault lies with the pilots/unions who watched it happen with the usual pilot "it won't affect me so sod 'em" attitude so prevalent in civil aviation.

[lifeafteraviation]

I notice that you think that it is ok to pay for your basic licences.

I think there's a pretty clear distinction between paying for professional education/ certifications and paying for work experience.

However, when your profession is in great demand (i.e. not enough people interested in it as a career) organizations in need of qualified employees often provide education incentives or pay for your education outright while bonding you for a long term contract. This is just a swing of the pendulum in the other direction.

Still, I think being an airline pilot isn't such a great job that it's worth getting yourself so deeply in debt for. I think with that kind of money on hand anyone is probably better off on starting a lucrative business venture and flying for recreation. Now that I'm an airline pilot I miss flying the small planes.

I think the lure of scheduled airline flying in a transport jet is more of a fantasy than a reality. When you are doing it you wonder...yeah, it's a good job, better than most, but it can get pretty damn tedious after a while. It's sort of like having "two chicks at the same time" Office Space -1999, I don't think you need a million dollars for that although because it sounds like fun and you may be tempted to pay for it. So you see all these cool guys going around with two chicks and you think....I wanna be that guy! It's the same thing with being an airline pilot...maybe that's why we all have so many ex wives. No disrespect to our female colleagues.

Funny how people set the bar to exclude themselves from the "bad" people who have ruined aviation as a career.

There are a lot of bad choices and misguided perceptions that hurt the career in general. I think pay for a job is just one of them. The best way to fight it is by educating people of the consequences and risks and also keeping the public informed. No airline likes bad publicity.

I want to be an astronaut. If there was such a thing as pay to spacewalk I would sign up tomorrow.

Since 2001 when Dennis Tito paid the Russians $20 million to ride into space I think about seven other people have paid to go into space.

There isn't, because the current astronauts won't allow idiots like me anywhere near a rocket.

Haha....I think as with most things, any idiot with enough money can get anything...an airline job or a tour of space. John Travolta went out and just bought his own airliner (and co-pilot with benefits for that matter), painted it up and wore a uniform. In the end he's still an actor.

The fault lies with the pilots/unions who watched it happen with the usual pilot "it won't affect me so sod 'em" attitude so prevalent in civil aviation.

ahhh....now we're getting into another discussion altogether....plenty of threads on this for which I have much to say.

[macdo]

TOURIST - You are correct. I paid for my CPL/IR via the old self improver FI route. So, it was almost self financing, but I was poor for quite a long time!
However, when I got my first airline job I was BONDED for 3 years which I thought was entirely reasonable given the investment the airline made.

I think you have to draw a realistic line in the sand over what is acceptable to the majority and what starts to injure it.

If I want to be a lawyer, I would go to University for three years for my basic qualification for Law and incur about 50k in debts. Afterwards I would be looking for a job, albeit lowly paid, and from there my career would grow. I would not expect to pay another 50k to get legal work experience to help me on my way. Although, it has to be said that the 'unpaid internship' system which has developed in the UK in many areas is having a similar detrimental effect on graduate pay.

I am not passing judgement on those that PTF. I can, from experience, say that a few of those who are able to come via this route, get the majority a bad name. But, given that I can just about remember how desperate I was to fly for a living, I may well have PTF'd myself. It is also completely reasonable and provable that PTF and the immoral antics of some airlines have injured the T&C's of the profession.

You could, perhaps, argue that the destruction of the career structure progressing from GA(or RAF)/Turboprop/Jet, with everyone having to start in the right seat of an Big Shiny Jet, has also done us great harm.

[Tourist]

Denis Tito was not an astronaut, he was merely the first space self loading freight.

Pay to fly is something very different, though sometimes the poor chap in the left seat might wonder.

[Stalker_]

Very few participate in P2F i don't know what all the fuss is about

Happy New year

[lifeafteraviation]

Denis Tito was not an astronaut, he was merely the first space self loading freight.

Sure he was. He had to undertake a rigorous training program and participated in and contributed to the mission. Although clearly the biggest participation was in financing. John Travolta is a pilot isn't he? Qualified on several large jets. Certainly neither are professionals.

Interestingly, Dennis Tito met with resistance from NASA during his training because they felt his qualification as an astronaut was questionable for very much the same reasons we are debating in this thread. They felt paying to be an astronaut degraded the dignity of the profession.

He is a former engineer and "rocket scientist" with NASA. He was more than freight or a passenger.

Pay to fly is something very different, though sometimes the poor chap in the left seat might wonder.

I agree. Dennis was not a required crew member, merely an add on.

[flieng]

As has been stated, paying to fly fare paying passengers with a commercial airline is the main step that has devalued a once respected profession. I can not see how this situation can be reversed and would certainly not advise anyone to enter into professional flying. Both the Airlines and predominately "pilots" with low hours are responsible for the demise of terms and conditions and possibly standards. The next logical step,to my mind would be to attack Captains terms and conditions for new promotions. A sad and disgraceful situation, which will no doubt continue.

[kungfu panda]

Low hour Pilots being responsible for the demise maybe Tosh but the philosophy of hiring cadets ahead of experienced Pilots certainly results in a decline in safety standards and in Pay.

I am a safer Pilot than I was 10 years ago but I cost less 10 years ago.

[flieng]

The vast majority of pilots hired by the major low cost operators (hired by the hundred if not thousand) over the last 8 years are lowhoured (or cadet by another name?) yes or no ?

[kungfu panda]

Flieng- Yes.

Low cost airlines say that their Priority is safety. We as professionals believe in a Safety culture.

I am a safer Pilot now with 12,000 hours than I was 10 years ago with 4,000 Hours.

In a true culture of safety you would hire the most experienced Pilots.

I am not saying that you will not find 5,000 hour guys that are better than 12,000 hour guys, of course you will, but when making the selection you have to know that at personal level the 12,000 hour guy will be close to his best.

Let me also say that as you go through your Career as a Pilot you do become a better and safer Pilot, you are not the best that you will be from a safety point of view when you are 25. I would suggest (although it's personal) you reach your highest safety standards in your 50's, when you really realise "it can happen to you".

[flieng]

Kungfu Panda. I ask the question because john smith referred to my quote "as tosh". Low hour pilots have been hired extensively ahead of experienced pilots because they have been and are,far more easily exploited and have been and continue to be complicit in these "pay to fly" schemes, that is without question. Therefore they (low houred"pilots" or "cadets" or any other name you can think) have been a major part of the demise of the professional pilot, so my previous post is not "tosh". Kung fu panda , you raise a very good point that experience does promote greater safety that is why there are minimum hours set to Captain a multi crew aircraft. Logically safety must reduced by flooding an airline with inexperienced pilots in the right seat.

[kungfu panda]

Don't worry JS appears either to be Easy management or very close to them. Just view what he says as CTC propaganda.

[airjet]

The bottom line is simply decide what YOU are worth and work for no less. obviously if you are a 250 hour pilot just out of flight school you are worth less than a pilot with 10,000 hours. However no pilot should pay to fly. Once upon a time in India, I know a co. that was not paying young inexperienced co-pilots a "salary" however they put them up and fed them and gave them a small allowance, and they could build up their time on A320`S.

[First.officer]

Once upon a time in India, I know a co. that was not paying young inexperienced co-pilots a "salary" however they put them up and fed them and gave them a small allowance, and they could build up their time on A320`S

Ahhh, yeah...we used to have a similar set-up in the 1800's, in Britain - they were referred to as "Victorian Workhouses".

[StressFree]

First Officer,

Absolutely SPOT ON.

Well said :D

[Sprinkles]

flieng,

I think you've missed the objection. Your post isn't tosh, it's your statement that cadets or low hour'd guys straight out of flight school are responsible for the exploitative industry we find ourselves in that is tosh!

Seriously, what bearing do these low hour pilots have on airlines recruiting policies? What changes do they submit to the CEOs in a vain attempt said CEOs will actually action? Do these CEOs even give a :mad: about a 200 hour cadet straight out of flight school? Of course they don't!

Also if cadets are so responsible for the current exploitative industry why wasn't the industry like this 30-40 years ago when Hamble was popping out cadets every month? Supply and demand maybe?

If you just graduated CTC or Oxford with >£100,000 debt and the only job offer was with a LoCo but you had to fork out money for a type rating what would you do? Especially if there is no other opportunities. Do you seriously expect us to believe you'd rather work in Tesco as that's the morally correct choice?

You almost hit the nail on the head when you say low hour pilots have been a major part of the demise. Yes they may have been, but I again reiterate they are not responsible. They are simply profit centres for the likes of CTC and Oxford and now the airlines.

It is these schools and airlines whom are responsible. The cadets I'm afraid, have very little options or choice nowadays.

I'm afraid sir, you're using cadets as a scapegoat. Until demand far exceeds supply, which might never happen in euro land we'll simply have to fight the issue with the suppliers (training schools) and airlines directly.

[kungfu panda]

During the 90's as CTC was being set up there was a view amongst the big airlines (in the UK) such as Britannia, that the supply of Pilots coming from the self improver route (those guys who'd got 700 hours instructing, converted to CPL then built 1000 hours multi-engine in general aviation and then done 1500 hours turbo-prop in the likes of Channel Express) was not what they needed. They believed that these experienced self improvers had not received the structured training including Airline style SOP's and Procedures which were offered by Oxford and Perth during their abbreviated CPL course (200 hours).

CTC was a band of Airline trainers who chose to exploit and propogate this myth to make themselves significant profit, they have been very successful.

Since the 90's though the grounds on which this myth was based no longer exists. Pilots generally, including those experienced in General Aviation and in Smaller Airlines have all received the required structured Airline training.

If it was not for the profits generated by recruiting the inexperienced youth through Pay to fly schemes or CTC's exploitative branding then the correct People would be hired into the likes of Easyjet or Ryanair, those F/O's with appropriate experience.

As the Law has changed in the U.S. to raise experience required in the right seat as a result, I believe, of the Colgan Air disaster no lesson has been learn't in Europe because of the powerful Lobbies of the training organisations and the LOCO's. Unfortunately it will take a disaster of our own to give the administrators the leverage which they need to change the Law in Europe.

[RexBanner]

In the case of Colgan there was no lesson to learn in terms of experience because the crew involved were not inexperienced whatsoever. On that occasion they were purely incompetent. Quite how raising the minima for commercial pilots to 1500 hours relates to Colgan in any way escapes me.

[kungfu panda]

RexBanner- Maybe I'm wrong about the Colgan, I was writing from memory but the FAA have increased minimum experience to 1500 hours for First Officers and I believe that it is the result of recommendations made after a particular incident. Please enlighten me rather than just pointing out my ignorance. Thanks...

[RexBanner]

Kungfu Panda I meant no offence it's just I am genuinely curious about how whenever people talk about the FAA increasing the minimum time requirement Colgan always gets cited as the reason why. But Colgan was not caused by a lack of experience at all. It was borne more out of fatigue and other stressors (the FO for one was regularly commuting hundreds of miles to work because she couldn't afford to live near her base - something that is still widespread in the industry) but inexperience was not a factor in the crash.

[kungfu panda]

Just looked at the wikipedia on the Colgan:

Capt: 3200 hours
F/O: 2200 Hours
Total crew experience: 5400 Hours

I agree the F/O had more than 1500 Hours, but considering that the Capt. was 47 (age not commensurate with experience) and total flight deck time only 5400 hours, I would say this is an inexperienced flight deck. I would guess that an average Captain in his 40's would have 7-10,000 hours i.e. 50% more than this crew in total.

I know this is highly debatable but I believe experience is a significant factor in safety. I know their are many other factors!

European LOCO's totally disregard the experience factor.... totally..

[Journey Man]

If you just graduated CTC or Oxford with >£100,000 debt and the only job offer was with a LoCo but you had to fork out money for a type rating what would you do? Especially if there is no other opportunities. Do you seriously expect us to believe you'd rather work in Tesco as that's the morally correct choice?

You almost hit the nail on the head when you say low hour pilots have been a major part of the demise. Yes they may have been, but I again reiterate they are not responsible. They are simply profit centres for the likes of CTC and Oxford and now the airlines.

It is these schools and airlines whom are responsible. The cadets I'm afraid, have very little options or choice nowadays.


The decision to undertake flight training was a calculated risk. There are no guarantees and each pay-to-fly pilot made the choice to fund flight training based on this premise. To claim that there was then no 'choice' but to pay to work and that cadets are entirely blameless is puerile. Whilst pay-to-fly pilots may not be the only party who shoulder the blame, they do shoulder some of the blame.

How much blame should the pilots who didn't pay-to-fly shoulder? The ones who followed the advice of those already in the industry and didn't pay-to-fly. Those who got relegated to flying piston twins and light turboprops on crap salaries with no advancement to the jets despite accruing many thousand hours of commercial experience, because the only recruitment is of pay-to-fly pilots.

[Sprinkles]

Journey man I think you need to be a bit more thorough in what you read. I said very little choice, not no choice. There's a subtle, but big difference.

When I started training the likes of eJ "employed" cadets and bonded them. AFAIK, no up front cost for the type rating was required. Half way through training things changed. Do you blame me personally for "choosing" to pay a portion of my type rating and be bonded with CTC for the remainder? Even though I've since departed.

Here were the other two choices:
Tell em to stick it and wait for another airline to come along and pay for everything. I wanted to believe me! Unfortunately I left my crystal ball with the locals in Matamata!
Go work at Tescos and live off minimum wage.

Now things have changed since I started and cadets starting now should be well versed in the current employment tactics. This should be a huge factor in their decision to pursue this career. Certainly when it comes to budgeting the cost of training. If they do choose to pursue this as a career, who are we to blame them or make them feel guilty by wanting to actually do something they enjoy? Everybody has the right to enjoy their chosen career.

Pilots who did not pay-to-fly are no more responsible than anyone else. After all we're all trying to achieve a common objective. To get the A/C from A-to-B safely, efficiently and be remunerated accordingly. That's why we do this is it not?

I also find your choice of words inappropriate. Current pilots in the turbo prop world have never been "relegated". To say they are implies they were once flying big shiny turbo fan counter parts and they have since been made redundant in place of cheaper, less experienced cadets. Some UK airlines still employ guys from this sector so pay-to-fly is not the only way in. Granted in lesser numbers and perhaps this needs to be evened out. But it is still unfair the blame any new CPL/IR holders for this mess. Irrespective of whether they knew the "risks" prior to them starting. The airlines and training schools are the unscrupulous guilty parties.

Alas I believe we may have slightly gone off at a tangent. New pilots and the terms and conditions of their first job, or how they get it is not the only issue here. Maybe we should start refocusing some of this angst towards the companies selling hours at airlines, and the experienced pilots whom entertain such schemes. These experienced pilots should know better.

Many may disagree with my interpretation of the state of play, but I strongly believe the only way to stop pay-to-fly schemes is to stop it at the source. This will probably involve government and regulatory intervention.

[kungfu panda]

Sprinkles I agree with you. Unfortunately because it is now such big business it will only stop post an accident, when the public understand the need for law changes. At that point we will probably go down the same route as the U.S. requiring 1500 hours before being right seat qualified. The pay to fly will still continue even then with the 1500 hour guys wanting to gain advantage.

My view though is much more that I would like to see the benefit of experience appreciated and respected by all Airlines with respect to safety. I think that a 200 hour Pilot is a long, long way from being as safe as he will one day become. To put him in the right seat as a backstop to an overworked Captain is, in my opinion, unsafe. This is a "culture of risk", a short sighted gamble designed to benefit the shareholders of the various outfits.

[flieng]

Sprinkles, any pilot who agrees to these type of pay to fly, training with no salary whether they be inexperienced or not is partly responsible(having the moral decisions and therefore accountable) for the demise of the t and c,s of professional pilots. I specifically mention low houred pilots because that group account for the vast majority if not all of the individuals that agree to same. It is obviously unpalatable , but it is true. I am not trying" to use cadets as a scapegoat" but some blame logically must apportioned to them. I understand and vehemently object to the fact some Airlines and Training organisations put a lot of pilots in an almost impossible position, but it is not all down to them as without the foolishness of pilots concerned the situation could not happen.
You ask a number of questions . 30-40 years ago I would think supply and demand was much the same as now, but employers were more honourable and reputable. The main course of the decline started after 911 when a certain loco CEO saw an opportunity to save costs and I believe settle personal scores and affluent young people saw a chance to que jump as it were and so the vicious circle continued. God knows where it will end!
What would i do with "£100k debt and the choice of forking for a type rating or tescos"? I could not/would not get £100k of unsecured debt for a job and certainly my parents/relatives could not provide that sum of money, neither would I ask.

[Sprinkles]

Flieng, if you're going to proportion blame you really need to do it based on contribution.

As cadets contribute nothing to the T&Cs they are offered, I cannot see how they can be blamed any more than 1% for what gets put in front of them. As you say:

Airlines and Training organisations put a lot of pilots in an almost impossible position

You may argue that as they accept such conditions they should be 100% accountable. It's a fair point but consider your opinion I've quoted above.

In response to my original question regarding "what would you do?"
I proposed a hypothetical situation for you in which it gave you the opportunity to play devils advocate. I wasn't interested in your personal finances or how good your relationships with your family were. Unsurprisingly you avoided to answer what I was trying to get at. I presume your are either too proud to admit on a public forum you would follow the same training path so many are currently doing, or you simply missed my point. After all you did say...... See quote above! (Again)

Imagine you're 30 years younger and just finished training with a fresh licence in your hand.

In reply to your foolish comment I'm think that is rather offensive. I started training and things changed mid course. As I've said before nothing would have given me greater pleasure to tell CTC to stick it when told I'd have to pay if I wanted to go to eJ! But I took a calculated gamble. If my decision was so foolish why is it now that I'm on a very competitive salary with another airline, living a very enviable lifestyle? A little over two years after I started flying the big stuff. I was lucky but it proves my choice didn't turn out to be foolish at all, far from it in fact. I'm not the only one either.

eJ have also introduced a New Entrant Contract. It may not be as good as it what it used to be but it's an improvement. It provides a structured career path that is very attractive to some. I'm sure many cadets starting their training will be happy with what's on offer. I wasn't, which is why I left. But that's irrelevant to the topic in hand.

Unfortunately expectations have changed and it is now less frowned upon to self fund the type rating. In fact your job opportunities in some airlines may not be great if you don't. I don't agree with this personally but until you change expectations, you will not change behaviour.

We agree changing cadets mentality will be a fruitless exercise. Thus the only way to bring this to an end is to stop the practice altogether or make it illegal.

employers were more honourable and reputable.

Here lies the true problem. They (LoCos predominately) are not anymore. And who can blame them as there's no restriction to what they can do. They're a business and will do what they can within their powers to compete.

Again only governments and the regulatory authority will have the power to forbid self funded type ratings. I think I'll be retired before that happens.

Good night! :ok:

[lifeafteraviation]

I hope you don't feel I'm quoting out of context here...

The ones who followed the advice of those already in the industry and didn't pay-to-fly. Those who got relegated to flying piston twins and light turboprops on crap salaries with no advancement to the jets despite accruing many thousand hours of commercial experience...

You say this as if it's a terrible fate to be stuck in a job flying a piston twin or light turboprop....something like a Navajo or King Air I presume? Maybe flying packages around at night on short haul in bad weather with many stops.

In my experience, pilots who have spent a few years in this type of job are among the most skilled and professional aviators I've ever worked with.

I think it's a major fallacy in airline hiring that they seem to prefer time in type or experience in automated cockpits when hiring. It's easier to teach a skilled pilot to work in an automated cockpit flying a jet transport than it is to teach good airmanship to a non skilled pilot while flying an in an automated cockpit.

[Journey Man]

Here were the other two choices:
Tell em to stick it and wait for another airline to come along and pay for everything. I wanted to believe me! Unfortunately I left my crystal ball with the locals in Matamata!
Go work at Tescos and live off minimum wage.

Disingenuous. If those were the only two other options you envisaged, I think that speaks volumes.

You don't accept that people who have paid to work have any culpability with respect to the almost total reshaping of the airline hiring market, which I cannot agree with. As I said, they must shoulder a portion of the blame for their part in this.

Yes, 'relegate' could imply having been moved down and as you point out, those pilots accruing relevant commercial experience have not had the opportunity to fly jets due to the floods of pilots paying to work. Try 'consigned' instead; see if the overall message of the paragraph magically becomes clear. I absolutely agree; it's better to focus on a word than the overall message.


Lifeafteraviation,

I agree. There's nothing wrong with flying Barons, Chieftains, King Airs. From personal experience, it doesn't pay enough to make a career out of and therefore isn't sustainable long term. At some point, you need to access the higher salaries commensurate with larger aircraft.

[Sprinkles]

Disingenuous!!! :} :} :}

That's the funniest thing I've heard all week! Cheers for cheering me up at least. If you knew me, you'd know I'm anything but. In fact quite the opposite.

To be frank they weren't the only two options, but they were the two most people are familiar with.

If in your opinion, cadets must shoulder some portion of the blame, then what percentage do you think they're responsible for? I've given up my opinion. Don't just sit there pointing fingers! :=

Semantics are semantics. Your argument about turbo prop guys and multi engine piston guys are still moot as they do still get opportunities with the airlines. Your opinion that they are "consigned" to the scrap heap is simply uneducated and incorrect. I do agree they should be given more opportunity though if that's a common agreement?

In respect to cadets, is paying for a type rating up front even considered a pay-to-fly scheme? I'm genuinely interested to know peoples thoughts. When I paid for mine there were no hours connected to it. In fact had I spent the next 30 years at easyjet would people still be angry towards me? Even though that initial investment would have been paid for ten times over.

I think there needs to be a clearer distinction between true pay-to-fly schemes, whereby you're paying a fixed amount of hours at an airline, and cadets trying to help themselves get onto the ladder. I still don't agree with the latter even though I've done it myself!

[lifeafteraviation]

There's nothing wrong with flying Barons, Chieftains, King Airs. From personal experience, it doesn't pay enough to make a career out of and therefore isn't sustainable long term. At some point, you need to access the higher salaries commensurate with larger aircraft.

Exactly, but it pays vastly more than any PTF job no matter how large the aircraft.

If I were on the other side of the desk doing the hiring...I would take the guy with time in the weeds over a lower time guy with jet time. Unfortunately, the airlines seem to disagree... probably because they don't let pilots make the staffing decisions anymore.

[Mikehotel152]

If it rains on the crest of a hill, the water flows downhill.

Blaming this generation of pilots for the decline in terms and conditions at all levels in the industry is akin to blaming the rivers for filing after the rains.

Had the older generation of pilots been born closer to the millennium than the end of WWII or during the Swinging Sixties, they too would have seen a job market collapse, traditional 'self-improvement' options die a death, and the advent of the locos. As with the current crop of cadets, the bold and the desperate would find a way of funding their 'dream' career while the others would give up. Many of the 'others' could be potential Chuck Yaegers, just as I should have played footie for Man United but never got my chance.

Responsibility for the state of the industry should lie at the feet of the Regulators and Capitalism - the combination of dark forces which have reduced red tape to allow increased profits for the elite; promoted incredibly cheap flights and holidays for the masses in the name of social fairness; and which have allowed a profession to be devalued by likening the piloting of highly complex airplanes at 35,000 feet to driving buses.

[Journey Man]

Sprinkles

I countered your argument that people paying to work are not to blame. I've stated that I disagree and in my opinion they share some of the blame.That's not finger pointing, it's disagreeing. Frankly, at this point we may as well leave the whole thing to the historians as the horse has well and truly bolted.

I don't understand your desire to assign 'percentages of blame'. Any attempt to weight such an assessment would be so heavily biased by personal experience. It's completely puerile.

As for my comment regarding turboprop pilots; what education do you deem suitable? Eight years flying piston twins and turboprops, plus the shared experience of pilots from three other turboprop airlines at my base? Whilst I freely admit this is neither an exhaustive or definitive sample, my opinion cannot be 'incorrect' as it's the everyday reality ofa vast number of my colleagues. Whilst I wish it were so easy to glibly dismiss this entire situation as 'uneducated and incorrect' it is reality for a great many of my colleagues. In the interest of transparency, how much experience of being a turboprop captain, trying to get your break, do you have Sprinkles?



Lifeafteraviation,

Again, I entirely agree with you. Regarding remuneration; initially it will pay more than a loan repayment although not much. In the long run, in my opinion it doesn't. But it's purely my opinion and I base it on my own experience from my piston/TP years in aviation: first three years averaged $11k net pa (free accommodation) as a piston twin skipper; next three years $16.5k net pa as a TP F/O; next two years £32k net pa as a multicrew TP skipper.

[Sprinkles]

Journey man I beg to differ about finger pointing. But we'll go around in circles with that so let's just say we agree to disagree.

In reply to you being incorrect. Did you not say those flying light twins and turbo props get no advancement to jets despite accruing many thousands of hours and commercial experience? That sir, is undoubtably 100% incorrect. I know of a few ex turbo prop guys at our outfit. If you were not incorrect, how have these guys got to where they are?

I agree you guys are over looked and I know it's hard to believe but I am actually on your side. You turbo prop/light twin pilots need more opportunities in my opinion. Despite my experience I think it's great that my outfit gives everyone a fair shout should you be lucky to get an interview. They could, if they wanted to farm everyone from the likes of easy! In my opinion all airlines should take a mixture of ex Military, light twin and turbo prop and cadets.

To clarify I have no turbo prop experience. I was a "cadet" who went straight into the airlines. As you say attributing proportional blame is puerile because it is always a bias exercise. I don't blame cadets entirely because I was one. You on the other hand, probably proportion more blame because you understandably feel resentful towards people like me who bypassed you. I think that's a very fair emotion to display given the circumstances.

It is precisely this point that I believe blaming any group of pilots is a futile and pointless exercise. Yes some may have to shoulder some responsibility but that isn't constructive to the thread is it?

May I make bold suggestion that from this point forward none of us sit here blaming anyone retrospectively. And instead band together, look after one and all, including new cadets and suggest ways to stop these schemes from happening. Either it being lobbying, unions, letters to MPs to ASRs when someone turns up sick because they've paid for the pleasure to be there.

As a professional body we need to start looking for solutions. Ranting on this forum will get us, and future pilots nowhere.

[Journey Man]

How much blame should the pilots who didn't pay-to-fly shoulder? The ones who followed the advice of those already in the industry and didn't pay-to-fly. Those who got relegated to flying piston twins and light turboprops on crap salaries with no advancement to the jets despite accruing many thousand hours of commercial experience, because the only recruitment is of pay-to-fly pilots.

I made reference only to those TP pilots who haven't had the opportunities they may well deserve to advance their career. This is different to saying that no TP pilots ever progress. Now I have my jet command, I can look back on the way I've done things and feel immensely proud of what I've achieved in an unfavourable market. Hence it would be incorrect of me to purely say that no TP pilots advance to jets, which wasn't the intention of the above quoted statement.

Bitter resentment is not really relevant here. It won't solve any of the issues. I agree that spirited back-and-forths on PPRuNe are not going to resolve the issue...! I do believe I can say that the pay to work pilots have contributed to the shift towards an almost exclusive pay to work hiring market. They are not alone. As you've already said, market forces and the airlines are also factors, as are those who've sat around and done nothing. I'm pleased that we're in agreement that deciding who's more to blame is preposterous at this stage. Likewise, for me it's personally important that I do all I can to help those pilots who're getting the traditional apprenticeship. The journeymen.

I fully agree with you that as a profession we should be contesting the pay to work model much more vociferously. However when one group of pilots can't see the damage they've caused through their actions, and another group of pilots can't see the damage they've caused through their inaction, I don't hold out much hope. As a skipper, I've always felt that the responsibility for your crew extends beyond the cockpit.

As a professional group there is a lot of merit in drawing a line in the sand, getting past the blame, and fighting for a fair package for pilots at the bottom of the rung would be a start and help build a solid foundation for the future.

As you say, there's a lot we agree on. Enjoy the weekend :ok: